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Message no. 1
From: Grifter13 <sids@*********.CA>
Subject: Help with roll players
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:19:45 -0800
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The guys I play Shadowrun with are great guys, only problem is that =
they don't seem to be at all interested in role playing. I've tried =
GMing games that would give them more opportunities to role play (hell I =
practically forced them too on more than one occasion) but I'm not that =
good of a GM and they just seem almost unable to play in character. So =
I was wondering if you might have any tips on how to deal with this, how =
can I entice/trick/force my friends to role play. I really don't want =
to stop playing with them but I'm almost at the point that I would start =
playing with another group if I ever found one.



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<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The
guys I play =
Shadowrun
with are great guys, only problem is that they don't seem to be at all
interested in role playing.&nbsp; I've tried GMing games that would give =
them
more opportunities to role play (hell I practically forced them too on =
more than
one occasion) but I'm not that good of a GM and they just seem almost =
unable to
play in character.&nbsp; So I was wondering if you might have any tips =
on how to
deal with this, how can I entice/trick/force my friends to role =
play.&nbsp; I
really don't want to stop playing with them but I'm almost at the point =
that I
would start playing with another group if I ever found one.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Message no. 2
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:34:21 +1000
Grifter13 writes:
> The guys I play Shadowrun with are great guys, only problem is
> that they don't seem to be at all interested in role playing. I've
> tried GMing games that would give them more opportunities to role
> play (hell I practically forced them too on more than one occasion)
> but I'm not that good of a GM and they just seem almost unable to
> play in character. So I was wondering if you might have any tips
> on how to deal with this, how can I entice/trick/force my friends
> to role play. I really don't want to stop playing with them but
> I'm almost at the point that I would start playing with another
> group if I ever found one.

Well, first: don't send HTML messages to the list.

Second: Try the following. Get your friends to write out descriptions,
including personalities, for their characters. Get them to actually think
about the persona. Give an instant karma bonus to good ones, as an
encouragement.

Having done that, when you get together and play, keep all in-character
speech as in-character. Refer to each other by the character's names or
handles. If you want to discuss such out-of-character things as game
mechanics, make it that you have to declare a time out first, so that they
know when they are meant to be in character.

Give bigger karma awards to good roleplayers (but spread it around, as
well... not everyone can be great, but if they try, they should be
recognised).

There's also a load on the GM. Do you, as the GM, role-play the NPCs? Do you
come up with unique personalities? The GM should set a big example.

Don't rely just on dice rolls, either, especially for social-interaction
tests. So what if the PC has a Negotiation of 10? He's not going to trick
the fixer by rolling a bunch of dice. Feel free to modify target numbers
based on good role-playing, and let the players know that you're doing it.

Finally, when all's said and done: you can't force people to role-play. If
they don't want to play the way you want to play, it may be you should look
for another group.

--
************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robert.watkins@******.com *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
************************************************************************
Message no. 3
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:43:31 +1000
At 09:19 PM 1/19/99 -0800, you wrote:
> I really don't want to stop playing with them but I'm almost at
>the point that I would start playing with another group if I ever found
>one.

Hmmm... interesting problem, and one I've had to face myself on the odd
occasion. Regardless of how you are as a gamemaster, it all falls back to
the players and there are two types of players from my experience: those
that will play but will quit if it becomes too much effort ("Geez... if I
knew I'd have to work out a character history, friends, contacts, a social
life, and so on, I wouldn't have started playing"), and those that will
play and will put in the effort if they need to. You've really got to ask
yourself what each of your players is, then sit down and talk it out with
them. Ask them what they want out of the game and what they expect of you
and each other and then decide how you want to approach it.

If they really don't want to role play and really couldn't give a toss if
they didn't play, well... let them walk, you can always find other players
(Okay, so this isn't exactly true, but it's close enough in most cases).

If they don't really want to role play but are willing to give the basics
a try, then start introducing minor role playing challenges to them - not
too much at once mind, you don't want to overwhelm them. Get them an enemy
to track down - someone who's done the dirty on them one too many times to
be considered just another bad guy. Give them a few people who rely on
them for support or who's services they find absolutely vital to their
running careers. Or take a step back from the simple shoot 'n' zap,
dungeon-crawl type adventures and give the characters a run in which they
have a personal stake. For example, you could have the runner learn that a
certain corporation is planning on acquiring (forcibly if needs be) the
land his home is on and building a mall on the grounds. What's he going to
do? I mean, he's paid all this money for his home hasn't he? Is he going
to go down without a fight?

Initially, at least, foster the use of cliches and stereotypes on the
part of the learning-to-roleplayers. Cliches and stereotypes exist for a
reason so you might as well use them. Get the players to think of their
characters as mixes of different characters in different movies, books, or
tv shows, and then get them to think what that character would do in each
situation as it arises. Have the characters have cliched personal
histories, friends, experiences, and so on, and you're already halfway
towards a character - simply because everyone now knows what the character
is like.

If your group is heavily seeded with the so-called "rules-lawyers", start
implementing house rules that force them to play in character. Use the
Edges and Flaws system from Shadowrun Companion and give them a few bonus
points for having a family, friends, contacts, a decent history, detailed
background, etc etc etc, and give them more Karma in-game if they properly
play out their relationships with those people. I mean, this is an obvious
step, but many people don't implement it for some reason or another. If
you give them game bonuses for role playing well, they'll soon start
wanting to role play.

Whatever you do and however you do it, take it slowly - build it up
carefully. If you overwhelm them with a hundred different things they
should be doing when they're roleplaying they'll most likely just throw
their hands in the air and go back to how they used to play.

Remember to communicate with the players above all else. Find out what
they want to do, where they want to go, what they like, what they hate,
which direction they want the campaign to take, and so on. Even if you
implement only one or two of each player's ideas or cater to a couple of
his/her fancies, you're one step closer to keeping them happy and getting
some decent roleplaying material out of them while you're at it. As any
experienced gamer will tell you, it's a lot easier to roleplay something
you -enjoy-, than it is to roleplay something you -hate-.

There's probably more but I'm not really in the mood to type this up
properly or completely...





(>)ARKHAM
"The truth. It had to happen. It might as well be me."
Message no. 4
From: Slipspeed <atreloar@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:51:23 +1000
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The guys I play Shadowrun with are great guys, only problem is =
that they don't seem to be at all interested in role playing. I've =
tried GMing games that would give them more opportunities to role play =
(hell I practically forced them too on more than one occasion) but I'm =
not that good of a GM and they just seem almost unable to play in =
character. So I was wondering if you might have any tips on how to deal =
with this, how can I entice/trick/force my friends to role play. I =
really don't want to stop playing with them but I'm almost at the point =
that I would start playing with another group if I ever found one.

A simple way to start them thinking about characters instead of =
numbers is to require a background. Ask them to explain why their =
characters can do the things they do, how they got the equipment they =
have. Require reasonable explanations, too. A character who has been a =
"silent hunter who never speaks" for various megacorps can explain a =
lot, but beyond a point it's silly.

After that, introduce a few situations where combat and dice rolling =
won't get them through. For example, an intrigue mission where they're =
to attend a conference and work out who/what/when etc. Pay them BIG =
money, with the condition that if anything unusual happens the deal is =
off. ("Anything happens" includes shooting, kidnapping, intimidation, =
etc.) That'll make just about any player sit up and take notice, as =
we're/they're all greedy. :) Then wheedle your way into making them =
roleplay by having them go talk to various people, having to use their =
wits alone to gather clues. If they don't roleplay, have the person =
they're talking to give them a suspicious look and walk away quickly. =
Think of your reaction to someone coming up and demanding information =
from you. After an incident or two like that, sneak in hints that it's =
not working. Security watching them closely, etc. If they don't play =
the character they described in their background, people will find them =
strange. Imagine your friend's reactions if you suddenly started =
pretending you were someone else. An important note, though: If they go =
into the situation in disguise, they're not supposed to act like their =
background.

There's many other ways to do it, and many different situations. =
But most importantly, REWARD roleplaying. Give those that roleplay =
extra karma. Have less bad things happen to those who roleplay. Trust =
me, if you make it clear why those who roleplay are getting more karma, =
the others will quickly decide that it's a good idea. Sure, it'll throw =
your karma/money balance out, but if you want the roleplaying, it's a =
good way to go. You can level it off later.

I hate to be blunt and cynical, but people respond to bribes much =
better than threats. Give the players lots of incentive to roleplay =
until it becomes a habit, and they'll likely do it. Then you can ease =
back.

Just be careful they don't play you like a violin, demanding =
greater rewards for less roleplaying.

Slipspeed

=
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology. =
So
there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
=
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---

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HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
The guys I =
play Shadowrun
with are great guys, only problem is that they don't seem to be at =
all
interested in role playing.&nbsp; I've tried GMing games that would =
give
them more opportunities to role play (hell I practically forced them =
too on
more than one occasion) but I'm not that good of a GM and they just =
seem
almost unable to play in character.&nbsp; So I was wondering if you =
might
have any tips on how to deal with this, how can I entice/trick/force =
my
friends to role play.&nbsp; I really don't want to stop playing with =
them
but I'm almost at the point that I would start playing with another =
group if
I ever found one.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A simple way to start them thinking about characters instead of =
numbers
is to require a background.&nbsp; Ask them to explain why their =
characters
can do the things they do, how they got the equipment they =
have.&nbsp;
Require reasonable explanations, too.&nbsp; A character who has been =
a
&quot;silent hunter who never speaks&quot; for various megacorps can =
explain
a lot, but beyond a point it's silly.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>After that, introduce a few =
situations where
combat and dice rolling won't get them through.&nbsp; For example, =
an
intrigue mission where they're to attend a conference and work out
who/what/when etc.&nbsp; Pay them BIG money, with the condition that =
if
anything unusual happens the deal is off.&nbsp; (&quot;Anything
happens&quot; includes shooting, kidnapping, intimidation, =
etc.)&nbsp;
That'll make just about any player sit up and take notice, as =
we're/they're
all greedy.&nbsp; :)&nbsp; Then wheedle your way into making them =
roleplay
by having them go talk to various people, having to use their wits =
alone to
gather clues.&nbsp; If they don't roleplay, have the person they're =
talking
to give them a suspicious look and walk away quickly.&nbsp; Think of =
your
reaction to someone coming up and demanding information from =
you.&nbsp;
After an incident or two like that, sneak in hints that it's not
working.&nbsp; Security watching them closely, etc.&nbsp; If they =
don't play
the character they described in their background, people will find =
them
strange.&nbsp; Imagine your friend's reactions if you suddenly =
started
pretending you were someone else.&nbsp; An important note, though: =
If they
go into the situation in disguise, they're not supposed to act like =
their
background.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000
size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>There's many other ways to do =
it, and many
different situations.&nbsp; But most importantly, REWARD =
roleplaying.&nbsp;
Give those that roleplay extra karma.&nbsp; Have less bad things =
happen to
those who roleplay.&nbsp; Trust me, if you make it clear why those =
who
roleplay are getting more karma, the others will quickly decide that =
it's a
good idea.&nbsp; Sure, it'll throw your karma/money balance out, but =
if you
want the roleplaying, it's a good way to go.&nbsp; You can level it =
off
later.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000
size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>I hate to be blunt and cynical,
=
but people
respond to bribes much better than threats.&nbsp; Give the players =
lots of
incentive to roleplay until it becomes a habit, and they'll likely =
do
it.&nbsp; Then you can ease back.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000
size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Just be careful&nbsp; they
don't =
play you
like a violin, demanding greater rewards for less =
roleplaying.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000
size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Slipspeed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT
=
size=2>----------------------------------------------------------------=
------------<BR>&quot;Sufficiently
advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.&nbsp;
So<BR>there.&quot;<BR>Adam Treloar aka Guardian,
Slipspeed<BR><A
=
href="mailto:atreloar@*********.com">atreloar@*********.com</A><BR><A

=
href="http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/">http://www.geocities.=
com/TimesSquare/1900/</A><BR>--------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Message no. 5
From: Grifter13 <sids@*********.CA>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:51:09 -0800
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: Help with roll players


>Well, first: don't send HTML messages to the list.


Sorry forgot to change that setting, not a good thing to do on my first real
post.

Grifter cringes as he remebers the imfamous carp "Thwaping" that he read
about in the FAQ.
Message no. 6
From: Joshua Mumme <grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:57:02 -0600
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Well why not do the ole.. what you say is what you say.. and if they =
talk in third person then RP as if their characters are talking in third =
person. They should catch on.

Failing that beat them with a carp. Worked for me.

Grimlakin
----- Original Message -----
From: Grifter13



The guys I play Shadowrun with are great guys, only problem is =
that they don't seem to be at all interested in role playing. I've =
tried GMing games that would give them more opportunities to role play =
(hell I practically forced them too on more than one occasion) but I'm =
not that good of a GM and they just seem almost unable to play in =
character. So I was wondering if you might have any tips on how to deal =
with this, how can I entice/trick/force my friends to role play. I =
really don't want to stop playing with them but I'm almost at the point =
that I would start playing with another group if I ever found one.



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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=Content-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<META content='"MSHTML 5.00.0910.1309"' name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Well why not do the ole..&nbsp; what you say is
what =
you
say..&nbsp; and if they talk in third person then RP as if their =
characters are
talking in third person.&nbsp; They should catch on.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Failing that beat them with a carp.&nbsp;&nbsp;
=
Worked for
me.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Grimlakin</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:sids@*********.CA" =
title=sids@*********.CA>Grifter13</A> </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The
guys I play =
Shadowrun
with are great guys, only problem is that they don't seem to be at all =

interested in role playing.&nbsp; I've tried GMing games that would =
give them
more opportunities to role play (hell I practically forced them too on =
more
than one occasion) but I'm not that good of a GM and they just seem =
almost
unable to play in character.&nbsp; So I was wondering if you might =
have any
tips on how to deal with this, how can I entice/trick/force my friends =
to role
play.&nbsp; I really don't want to stop playing with them but I'm =
almost at
the point that I would start playing with another group if I ever =
found
one.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000
size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Message no. 7
From: Iridios <iridios@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:05:09 -0500
Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> Grifter13 writes:
> > The guys I play Shadowrun with are great guys, only problem is
> > that they don't seem to be at all interested in role playing. I've
> > tried GMing games that would give them more opportunities to role
> > play (hell I practically forced them too on more than one occasion)
> > but I'm not that good of a GM and they just seem almost unable to
> > play in character. So I was wondering if you might have any tips
> > on how to deal with this, how can I entice/trick/force my friends
> > to role play. I really don't want to stop playing with them but
> > I'm almost at the point that I would start playing with another
> > group if I ever found one.

> Second: Try the following. Get your friends to write out descriptions,
> including personalities, for their characters. Get them to actually think
> about the persona. Give an instant karma bonus to good ones, as an
> encouragement.

If your players have troubles envisioning character personalities,
appeal to their vanity. Suggest that they develop characters loosely
based on themselves or how they envision themselves in the SR
setting. This may give them an easier grip on how their character
would act, as it would be how they would "like" to act.


--
"Why do they sterilize needles for lethal injections?"
-Steven Wright

Iridios
iridios@*********.com
ICQ UIN:6629224
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489

-------Begin Geek Code Block------
GS d-(++) s+: a- C++ U?@>++ P L E?
W++ N o-- K- w(---) O? M-- V? PS+@
PE Y+ !PGP>++ t++@ 5+ X++@ R++@ tv
b+ DI++ !D G e+@>++++ h--- r+++ y+++
-------End Geek Code Block--------
Message no. 8
From: Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:18:56 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On Behalf Of
Grifter13
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 12:20 AM
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Subject: Help with roll players


The guys I play Shadowrun with are great guys, only problem is that they
don't seem to be at all interested in role playing. I've tried GMing games
that would give them more opportunities to role play (hell I practically
forced them too on more than one occasion) but I'm not that good of a GM and
they just seem almost unable to play in character. So I was wondering if
you might have any tips on how to deal with this, how can I
entice/trick/force my friends to role play. I really don't want to stop
playing with them but I'm almost at the point that I would start playing
with another group if I ever found one.
----------------------------

I have found that a lot of the time (with me, at least) this happens when a
new group gets together. Maybe the players don't know one another that
well, or what have you, but for some reason or another the players may be
uncomfortable together. If no one else is doing silly voices even if your
Voudoun Ork merits one, well...

Its hard to be the first one to break the ice.

It sounds like you're pretty comfortable with your players though. Are you
doing exaggerated accents/voices/dialects for your NPCs and gesturing
grandiously? I've found this helps a lot.

Also if you can just get one of the players to role-play a trait about his
character that looks cool to the other players, then they will start
searching for ways to up-stage him. I've rarely had that kind of thing get
out of hand.

If it does, the next time the character is alone and attracts attention to
himself, have some gangers try to mug him...

Role-playing karma will work for an incurrable rules-monger, but it has
minimal affect on the rest of us. :)

Good luck, I've been there too.

-Shaun
Message no. 9
From: Andy Mathews <AndMat3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:43:11 EST
In a message dated 1/19/99 9:21:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, sids@*********.CA
writes:

> The guys I play Shadowrun with are great guys, only problem is that they
> don't seem to be at all interested in role playing. I've tried GMing games
> that would give them more opportunities to role play (hell I practically
> forced them too on more than one occasion) but I'm not that good of a GM and
> they just seem almost unable to play in character. So I was wondering if
you
> might have any tips on how to deal with this, how can I entice/trick/force
my
> friends to role play. I really don't want to stop playing with them but I'm
> almost at the point that I would start playing with another group if I ever
> found one.

Some GM advice.
(1) Ask them to role play - I'm sure that you've thought of this; but just in
case.
(2) Get them to answer questions about their character. Not just the ones in
the b
Message no. 10
From: Andy Mathews <AndMat3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:48:08 EST
In a message dated 1/19/99 9:21:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, sids@*********.CA
writes:

> The guys I play Shadowrun with are great guys, only problem is that they
> don't seem to be at all interested in role playing. I've tried GMing games
> that would give them more opportunities to role play (hell I practically
> forced them too on more than one occasion) but I'm not that good of a GM and
> they just seem almost unable to play in character. So I was wondering if
you
> might have any tips on how to deal with this, how can I entice/trick/force
my
> friends to role play. I really don't want to stop playing with them but I'm
> almost at the point that I would start playing with another group if I ever
> found one.


Let's try that again....
(1) Ask them to role play. You've, most likely already thought of this -
but just in case... there it is.
(2) Ask them questions about their character. Start with the ones in the book
but then get in more detail. There's a book that one of my friends uses, it's
called
"Talk To Me". It's a writer's guide to character development; but has easy
carry
over uses for RPGs. (If I can find it, I'll send you the questionaire that he
used
for a Dark Champions game that we used to play.)
(3) Find out what they want out of gaming, other than "blowin' stuff up". and
then
work to give it to them in a way that requires Role Playing.

Role playing is about emotional involvement. Most games bring out the "role
play
your 'angry' emotion"; good games bring out other emotions. You have to be
comfortable with your other players and them with each other and you to do
this.
It is not easy - but - if you can get ONE of them to switch to you side - the
Good
Side- then you and he/she can bring the others over one at a time.

as a last resort, if you are not getting out of your game that which makes you
love gaming - find a new group...

move to NC and join mine.

later,
andy
Message no. 11
From: Andy Mathews <AndMat3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:51:03 EST
In a message dated 1/19/99 9:34:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
robert.watkins@******.COM writes:

> Don't rely just on dice rolls, either, especially for social-interaction
> tests. So what if the PC has a Negotiation of 10? He's not going to trick
> the fixer by rolling a bunch of dice. Feel free to modify target numbers
> based on good role-playing, and let the players know that you're doing it.

I TOTALLY agree with everything that you said execpt this. What's the point
in having 10 dice of anything if you are not allowed to use it. I cannot
kung-fu anything (ANYTHING) in the head - does that mean that I cannot buy
unarmed combat? I am not the smartest person on the planet - does this mean
that my character cannot have a 6 INT? Most people are not as cleaver (or
strong,
or devious, or nasty, or smart, or willful, or even charasmatic) as their
characters.
Dice represent the difference between us and them... and it should remain so.

andy
Message no. 12
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:00:11 +1000
Andy Mathews writes, in response to me:
> > Don't rely just on dice rolls, either, especially for social-interaction
> > tests. So what if the PC has a Negotiation of 10? He's not
> going to trick
> > the fixer by rolling a bunch of dice. Feel free to modify
> target numbers
> > based on good role-playing, and let the players know that
> you're doing it.
>
> I TOTALLY agree with everything that you said execpt this. What's
> the point
> in having 10 dice of anything if you are not allowed to use it. I cannot
> kung-fu anything (ANYTHING) in the head - does that mean that I cannot buy
> unarmed combat? I am not the smartest person on the planet - does
> this mean
> that my character cannot have a 6 INT? Most people are not as cleaver (or
> strong,
> or devious, or nasty, or smart, or willful, or even charasmatic) as their
> characters.
> Dice represent the difference between us and them... and it
> should remain so.

I said don't rely _just_ on dice rolls. What this means is that good
role-playing should allow a person to succeed, especially in
social-interaction tests, or at least to reduce the target number. Basically
this means that if a player, for example, gets into the swing of things and
roleplays well, say, an interrogation session, then that will make the
Interrogation test easier for them. Thus they get rewarded for good
roleplaying, and thus more good roleplaying is encouraged.

--
sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 13
From: Andy Mathews <AndMat3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 00:04:11 EST
In a message dated 1/20/99 12:00:03 AM Eastern Standard Time,
robert.watkins@******.COM writes:

> I said don't rely _just_ on dice rolls. What this means is that good
> role-playing should allow a person to succeed, especially in
> social-interaction tests, or at least to reduce the target number.
Basically
> this means that if a player, for example, gets into the swing of things and
> roleplays well, say, an interrogation session, then that will make the
> Interrogation test easier for them. Thus they get rewarded for good
> roleplaying, and thus more good roleplaying is encouraged.


that being your point - i am now in 100% agreement with the gentleman
from whereever Mr. Watkins hails from.

a
Message no. 14
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:22:26 +1000
Andy Mathews writes:
> that being your point - i am now in 100% agreement with the gentleman
> from whereever Mr. Watkins hails from.

"I come from a land Down Under/where women glow..."

(I couldn't resist)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 15
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:43:24 -0500
At 09:19 PM 1/19/99 -0800, Grifter13 wrote:

> The guys I play Shadowrun with are great guys, only problem is that
they don't seem >to be at all interested in role playing. I've tried GMing
games that would give them >more opportunities to role play (hell I
practically forced them too on more than one >occasion) but I'm not that
good of a GM and they just seem almost unable to play in >character. So I
was wondering if you might have any tips on how to deal with this, how >can
I entice/trick/force my friends to role play. I really don't want to stop
playing >with them but I'm almost at the point that I would start playing
with another group if I >ever found one.

Unfortunately, that's sometimes what it takes. That's how it happened with
me. While I was in high school, I played with a mostly munchkinous crew
and was pretty munchy myself. (Real roleplaying moments happened, but they
were few and far between.) Then I started college, and my whole
perspective changed. The old games started to seem juvenile (which they
were). I started hooking up with older, more experienced and less
munchkinous players, and gradually played with the old crowd less and less.

OTOH, real roleplaying did happen a few times with that crowd. I remember
in one game, the group would spend the evening Blowing Stuff Up, and then
afterwards the GM and I would get together one-on-one and roleplay some
good stuff. So you can always try that, going one-on-one with your players
and roleplaying the down-time.

A good method for doing that is called "blue-booking." It was invented
(well, publicized at least) by a game writer named Aaron Allston in an old
Champions sourcebook called Strike Force. Basically, you take those little
blue college exam notebooks (hence, blue-booking) or something similar and
the players and GM write dialog to each other back and forth. Sort of a
paper-and-pen precursor to PBEM roleplaying. It allows a group to roleplay
individual scenarios without anybody monopolizing the GM's time or
requiring others to sit around waiting for their turn. Sometimes you can
pass a whole session that way.

If nothing else, it may help you to weed out the potential roleplayers in
the group from the no-hopers.


--
Starjammer - starjammer@**********.com - Marietta, GA

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death
that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it
to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn
the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be
nothing. Only I will remain."
-- Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, Frank Herbert, Dune
Message no. 16
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:21:41 +1000
>"I come from a land Down Under/where women glow..."

Where women glow? Where exactly in Brisbane do you hang out? I mean, I've
heard of someone lighting up a room, but that's just ridiculous... (sorry,
I can never resist bad humour)

(>)ARKHAM
"Smile. Then you can be just like me.... insincere."
Message no. 17
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:54:04 +1000
Bob Tockley writes:
> Where women glow? Where exactly in Brisbane do you hang out? I
> mean, I've
> heard of someone lighting up a room, but that's just ridiculous... (sorry,
> I can never resist bad humour)

<Real World stuff and let's not argue>
The women in particular are those who decided that building a high-value
residential suburb around Australia's only nuclear reactor (originally
located in the boondocks) was a smart idea, and then decided to protest
against a (SAFER!) replacement being built.

Kind of like the idiots who build houses next to a proposed airport, and
then protest against the noise of the planes when the airport gets the
go-ahead.
</Real World stuff and let's not argue>

Of course, that's in Sydney, not Brisbane, but the song isn't very specific.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 18
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:51:20 +1000
>Of course, that's in Sydney, not Brisbane, but the song isn't very specific.

Heh. Given how many of the RNers and IRCers are Australian and from
Brisbane, can you blame me for making that assumption? No wait... don't
answer that.

(>)ARKHAM
"Smile. Then you can be just like me.... insincere."
Message no. 19
From: Andy Mathews <AndMat3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:01:57 EST
In a message dated 1/20/99 12:22:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
robert.watkins@******.COM writes:

> "I come from a land Down Under/where women glow..."
>
> (I couldn't resist)

what is vegemite anyway?

a
Message no. 20
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:02:50 +1000
>what is vegemite anyway?

You really want to know? Well, according to the label...


##########################################

Vegemite is delicious spread on bread or toast. It can also be added to
soups, stews, and gravies to enhance their flavour or made into a hot drink.

Ingredients: Vegetable Protein Extract, Sugar, Yest, Natural Colour
(Caramel), Salt, Thickener (Wheat Starch), Emulsifier (Glycerol
Monostearate), Spices, Added Vitamins, Water Added.

No Artificial Flavours or Preservatives.

##########################################

Essentially it's a vegetable and yeast extract made into something
spreadable and supposedly edible...


(>)ARKHAM
"Smile. Then you can be just like me.... insincere."
Message no. 21
From: Oliver McDonald <oliver@****.SPYDERNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:57:44 -0800
On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:02:50 +1000, Bob Tockley wrote:

>Essentially it's a vegetable and yeast extract made into something
>spreadable and supposedly edible...

Never had vegamite, but from what I have heard it is very similar in taste to marmite,
which is IMHO delicious.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://web2.spydernet.com/oliver/shadowrun.html
-----------------------------------------------------------

"We all enter this world in the same way: naked, screaming, and soaked in blood. But
if you live your life right, that kind of thing doesn't have to stop there."
Dana Gould.

I was never very good at parallel parking, so whenever
I can, I try to park in a parallel universe instead

Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.

Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.
Message no. 22
From: A Halliwell <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:20:41 +0000
And verily, did Bob Tockley hastily scribble thusly...
|
|>what is vegemite anyway?
|
|You really want to know? Well, according to the label...
|
|
|##########################################
|
|Vegemite is delicious spread on bread or toast.

I'd take them to the office of fair trading. They're breaching the trade
descriptions act with that one...

:)

|Essentially it's a vegetable and yeast extract made into something
|spreadable and supposedly edible...

Similar to Marmite on this side of the pond. (Or world even).
Only here, we have a decent ad campaign, where someones handing out free
samples, and a riot ensues when the people who like it want more, and the
demonstrators try to force it on the people who hate it.

The tag line.

Marmite, you either love it, or hate it.
(Personally, I think it's the most disgusting stuff ever. Scraped from the
bottom of beer vats, IIRC...)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 23
From: Rick Musci <Chocobo219@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:30:49 EST
In a message dated 1/19/99 11:58:25 PM Pacific Standard Time,
oliver@****.SPYDERNET.COM writes:

> Never had vegamite, but from what I have heard it is very similar in taste
to
> marmite,
> which is IMHO delicious.

And marmite is? This of course being relavent because these seem to be the
more artifical foods that seem to be forming during the 21st century. What
other odd mixtures will we see to replace current foods? More importantly what
foods will we have lost so much of to have to form a subsititute?

Steel Katana
Message no. 24
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:42:08 +0100
According to Iridios, at 22:05 on 19 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> If your players have troubles envisioning character personalities,
> appeal to their vanity. Suggest that they develop characters loosely
> based on themselves or how they envision themselves in the SR
> setting. This may give them an easier grip on how their character
> would act, as it would be how they would "like" to act.

An idea one of my players had: make a character who was basically himself,
but with a couple of Leonization treatments thrown in. Then he'd know what
was going to happen in the adventures his character would go through,
because he'd already played them in 1999 :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And that's as far as the conversation went.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 25
From: Josh Munn <barnack@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 07:43:02 EST
>I have found that a lot of the time (with me, at least) this happens
>when a new group gets together. Maybe the players don't know one
>another that well, or what have you, but for some reason or another
>the players may be uncomfortable together. If no one else is doing
>silly voices even if your Voudoun Ork merits one, well...

I working on the voice. Just give me time. I haven't found one that
works yet.


".o' 'b^'""'b -'b
,'.'o' t. = -'b -'t.
; d o' ___ _.--.. 8 - 'b ='b
dooo8< .o:':__;o. ,;;o88%%8bb - = 'b ='b
|^88^88=. .,x88/::/ | \\'::::::d%%%%%88%88888/%x88888
:-88ˆ%%L8'%'|::|_>-<-||%;;%;8%%=;:::=%8;;\%%%%\8888
|ˆ 88%%|HHHH|::| >-< |||;%;;8%%=;:::=%8;;;%%%%+|]88
| 88-88%%LL.%.%b::Y_|_Y/%|;;;;'%8%%oo88%;o%.;;;;+|]88
Yx88o88^^'"'^^%8boooood..-\H_Hd%P%%88%P^%%^'\;;;/%%88
'"\^\ ~"""""' d%P """^"
; = '+' - P
'.'.b :<%%> . : - d' - P
.'.b '788 ,'- = d' =.'
''.b. :..- :' P
'q.>b '^^^:::::,'
""^^
There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved
through a suitable application of high explosives.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 26
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 06:30:13 -0600
On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:42:08 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
<SNIP>
>An idea one of my players had: make a character who was basically
himself,
>but with a couple of Leonization treatments thrown in. Then he'd know
what
>was going to happen in the adventures his character would go through,
>because he'd already played them in 1999 :)

Did he buy Mneumonic Enhancers so that he could *remember* them? ;)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"We called him Mother Superior because of the length of his habit" --
Trainspotting
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 27
From: Joshua Mumme <Grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:21:15 -0600
Andy Mathews wrote:

> In a message dated 1/19/99 9:34:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> robert.watkins@******.COM writes:
>
> > Don't rely just on dice rolls, either, especially for social-interaction
> > tests. So what if the PC has a Negotiation of 10? He's not going to trick
> > the fixer by rolling a bunch of dice. Feel free to modify target numbers
> > based on good role-playing, and let the players know that you're doing it.
>
> I TOTALLY agree with everything that you said execpt this. What's the point
> in having 10 dice of anything if you are not allowed to use it. I cannot
> kung-fu anything (ANYTHING) in the head - does that mean that I cannot buy
> unarmed combat? I am not the smartest person on the planet - does this mean
> that my character cannot have a 6 INT? Most people are not as cleaver (or
> strong,
> or devious, or nasty, or smart, or willful, or even charasmatic) as their
> characters.
> Dice represent the difference between us and them... and it should remain so.

I just rememberd this dandy little idea. Get everyone to create their
charachters.. Tell them to make some notes on what they are good at what they
arn't and whatnot. Have them come up with some info in their characters. Then
take away their charachter sheets. That way they can take notes. Follow the
game. And you worry about the Rolls. I know it is a BIG pain in the booty for
the GM. But quite honestly I must thank the man that broke me of Power Gameing.
Sure he did it via High death count on my characters part. But then again if I
was a big beefy badass with a low intelligence I played it. I ALLWAYS roll
played my characters. Voice gesture the whole deal. Some great memories come
from strait RP. Again take away the charachter sheets. Don't let them roll
dice. Play like that for a while. It takes the focus away from the numbers and
puts it on the characters.

>
>
> andy

Grimlakin
Message no. 28
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:01:53 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:30 AM 1/20/99 -0500, Steel Katana wrote:
>And marmite is? This of course being relavent because these seem to
be the
>more artifical foods that seem to be forming during the 21st century.
What
>other odd mixtures will we see to replace current foods? More
importantly what
>foods will we have lost so much of to have to form a subsititute?

Beef in particular will probably become a luxury food. It takes way
more acres to produce a pound of beef than it does to prouce a pound
of corn, wheat, or soy. In SR's time many of the world's prime cattle
ranching regions, such as the US Midwest, or Argentina for example,
will not be as available for ranching purposes. Therefore, expect to
see beef substitutes.


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Version: PGP Personal Privacy 6.0.2

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 29
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:59:59 +1000
> >Of course, that's in Sydney, not Brisbane, but the song isn't very
> specific.
>
> Heh. Given how many of the RNers and IRCers are Australian and from
> Brisbane, can you blame me for making that assumption? No wait...
> don't answer that.
>
> (>)ARKHAM
> "Smile. Then you can be just like me.... insincere."
>
>
I know. It's disgusting.

It's almost...a sickness...

*Doc' runs away from all the Brisbanites..."Alfie Langer wears army
boots!"*

Doc'

.sig Sauer
Message no. 30
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:05:52 +1000
> In a message dated 1/20/99 12:22:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> robert.watkins@******.COM writes:
>
> > "I come from a land Down Under/where women glow..."
> >
> > (I couldn't resist)
>
> what is vegemite anyway?
>
> a
>
>
You don't wanna know. Believe me you just don't wanna know.

*Doc' shudders..."Uuuuuuhhhh...

"The truth? You can't HANDLE the truth!!"*

Doc'

.sig Sauer
Message no. 31
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:32:12 +1000
Doc' writes:
> *Doc' runs away from all the Brisbanites..."Alfie Langer wears army
> boots!"*

I only live in Brisbane... I'm not _from_ Brisbane. It's merely a place of
residence.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 32
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:51:30 +0100
According to Paul Gettle, at 17:01 on 20 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> Beef in particular will probably become a luxury food. It takes way
> more acres to produce a pound of beef than it does to prouce a pound
> of corn, wheat, or soy. In SR's time many of the world's prime cattle
> ranching regions, such as the US Midwest, or Argentina for example,
> will not be as available for ranching purposes. Therefore, expect to
> see beef substitutes.

Erm... I don't suppose you've heard of the bio-industry, with the emphasis
on "industry"? You can quite easily keep a cow on roughly three square
meters of floor, and if you really want to, you can even stack multiple
floors on top of each other. Or, as they're called here, "crate calves" --
a calf held in a wooden crate, and when it's grown so far it almost won't
fit in the crate anymore, it goes to the butcher.

It's certainly not good for the animal, but it will provide real beef as
opposed to soybeef. Such facilities would also be prime targets for eco-
terrorist groups in SR, IMO, making them heavily guarded (both to keep out
the terrorists and to prevent anyone from stealing the expensive foods
being grown in the facili^H^H^Htory).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And that's as far as the conversation went.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 33
From: Oliver McDonald <oliver@****.SPYDERNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:58:24 -0800
On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:51:30 +0100, Gurth wrote:

>According to Paul Gettle, at 17:01 on 20 Jan 99, the word on
>the street was...
>
>> Beef in particular will probably become a luxury food. It takes way
>> more acres to produce a pound of beef than it does to prouce a pound
>> of corn, wheat, or soy. In SR's time many of the world's prime cattle
>> ranching regions, such as the US Midwest, or Argentina for example,
>> will not be as available for ranching purposes. Therefore, expect to
>> see beef substitutes.
>
>Erm... I don't suppose you've heard of the bio-industry, with the emphasis
>on "industry"? You can quite easily keep a cow on roughly three square
>meters of floor, and if you really want to, you can even stack multiple
>floors on top of each other. Or, as they're called here, "crate calves" --
>a calf held in a wooden crate, and when it's grown so far it almost won't
>fit in the crate anymore, it goes to the butcher.

Uh, but Gurth, you still have to grow fodder for the animal. That is what takes the land,
not where the animal lives.

For meat animals, the most efficient is rabbit (lbs per acre) shortly followed bty
chicken.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://web2.spydernet.com/oliver/shadowrun.html
-----------------------------------------------------------

"We all enter this world in the same way: naked, screaming, and soaked in blood. But
if you live your life right, that kind of thing doesn't have to stop there."
Dana Gould.

I was never very good at parallel parking, so whenever
I can, I try to park in a parallel universe instead

Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.

Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.
Message no. 34
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:40:48 +0100
According to Oliver McDonald, at 9:58 on 21 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> Uh, but Gurth, you still have to grow fodder for the animal. That is
> what takes the land, not where the animal lives.

If you look at what animals are fed (chicken fodder often being those
parts of dead chickens that humans don't want, for example), you don't
need as many hectares of land to feed cows as you do to feed an equal
weight of humans. Add to that genetically-engineered plants that provide
more energy kilo and genetically-engineered-and-hormone-filled animals
that produce more meat than current ones do, and IMO you'll get quite a
lot of meat for your land...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And that's as far as the conversation went.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 35
From: Andy Mathews <AndMat3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:31:00 EST
In a message dated 1/21/99 1:43:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, gurth@******.NL
writes:

> If you look at what animals are fed (chicken fodder often being those
> parts of dead chickens that humans don't want, for example), you don't
> need as many hectares of land to feed cows as you do to feed an equal
> weight of humans. Add to that genetically-engineered plants that provide
> more energy kilo and genetically-engineered-and-hormone-filled animals
> that produce more meat than current ones do, and IMO you'll get quite a
> lot of meat for your land...
>

But won't farm land be reduced by the advent of Paranormal Animals
who will want to reclaim some of their land. Also, the NAN would run
many of the US Ranchers off; and trade their "bad" ranching practices
for "good" ones. meaning fewer cattle per acre. This is not my opinion
just a question.

thanks
andy
Message no. 36
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Help with roll players
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:51:54 +0100
According to Andy Mathews, at 14:31 on 21 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> But won't farm land be reduced by the advent of Paranormal Animals
> who will want to reclaim some of their land.

You can't reclaim something that wasn't yours in the first place :)

> Also, the NAN would run many of the US Ranchers off; and trade their
> "bad" ranching practices for "good" ones. meaning fewer cattle
per acre.

Yeah, but first of all you guys in North America have enough space to
practice other farming techniques -- where I live you get, at a guess,
anything up to 50 cows per hectare of land used for cow farming, with a
wire fence around every patch of land of maybe half a hectare in size. We
somehow also manage to squeeze just as many pigs into this country as we
have people, not to mention all the sheep and the land used to grow crops.
It's just that this would require a different mindset than that employed
by ranchers in the US nowadays -- but it's an option, at least.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And that's as far as the conversation went.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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