Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Benjamin Eriksen <benjamin.eriksen@******.UIO.NO>
Subject: Here there be insect shamans...
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:29:15 +0100
In reply to some curious soul's observations earlier on this board, I'd
like to add my opinion on the origins of Insect shamans, as opposed to
their totems. The origin of an insect shaman is by definition a
dehumanizing experience, making the wannabe insect shaman a tad sociopathic
and clinically schizophrenic - not a person you would attempt to fit into
an SR group... Or maybe you'd want to - it's your campaign. I'm just
saying that they'd be mentally unstable by human standards and have the
Hive as their main priority. Mantis Shamans would be slightly different,
as their objective is to eradicate all other insect spirits, shamans and
totems. In a dedicated campaign, it would be possible to play Mantis
Shamans, but neither these are your garden variety person. We're talking
about people who hole up in their apartments to build beehives in their
spare time and would probably eat you if they thought they could get away
with it.
A good example of my image of the Insect Shaman is the character Renfield
in Bram Stoker's "Dracula". The engine's running but no one's behind the
wheel. They're trying to be insects but their bodies are human. Most
likely, they're trying to cope with a universe cruel enough to make their
bodies human and their minds insect, and have a lot of aggression to
externalize.
Just my five cents' worth.
B.
Message no. 2
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Here there be insect shamans...
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:16:32 -0500
> From: Benjamin Eriksen <benjamin.eriksen@******.UIO.NO>
> Date: Tuesday, March 03, 1998 7:29 AM

> In reply to some curious soul's observations earlier on this
board, I'd
> like to add my opinion on the origins of Insect shamans, as opposed to
> their totems. The origin of an insect shaman is by definition a
> dehumanizing experience, making the wannabe insect shaman a tad
sociopathic
> and clinically schizophrenic - not a person you would attempt to fit into
> an SR group... Or maybe you'd want to - it's your campaign. I'm just
> saying that they'd be mentally unstable by human standards and have the
> Hive as their main priority. Mantis Shamans would be slightly different,
> as their objective is to eradicate all other insect spirits, shamans and
> totems. In a dedicated campaign, it would be possible to play Mantis
> Shamans, but neither these are your garden variety person. We're talking
> about people who hole up in their apartments to build beehives in their
> spare time and would probably eat you if they thought they could get away
> with it.

<Snip>

While I can definitely see your point, I feel this interpretation of Insect
Shamans in general is very limiting. What about an Insect Shaman who is
kind-hearted, well-meaning, a pacifist, a charity supporter, and an
environmentalist? Impossible? Definitely not. I actually designed and
played a PC who was all this and more....he was an Ant Shaman. He worked
with the homeless to shelter and feed them. It was his life's ambition to
benefit the hive, but that can be done in many ways. Remember, people can
be VOLUNTARILY inhabited by an insect spirit, and some are. This doesn't
mean they are necessarily crazy, it just means they believe in the cause,
or perhaps they want that sense of family they never had before, etc.

The examples can go on and on. As a house rule, I don't make people lose
their memories when they merge. I have the mind of the spirit merge with
the mind of the host. In essence, the (Meta)human just got more
powerful...that's very attractive to some people.

Just because Insect Spirits are alien, doesn't mean they are evil.
Seriously, we eat animals all the time and don't think twice about it.
What's the difference between that and some other intelligent race coming
and eating us? We're the target - that's the only difference. It's not
evil, it's just a way of life. It's simply different than ours, so it's
easy to lump into one category instead of thinking about.

My main concern with this topic is that many GMs are doing a disservice to
their PCs/NPCs by forcing all Insect Shamans/Queens/Spirits, etc. to be
evil. That's just so....limiting.

> Just my five cents' worth.

Just my 100NY worth.

> B.

Justin
Message no. 3
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Here there be insect shamans...
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 04:43:01 +0000
*snip friendly insect shamans*
> My main concern with this topic is that many GMs are doing a disservice to
> their PCs/NPCs by forcing all Insect Shamans/Queens/Spirits, etc. to be
> evil. That's just so....limiting.

The E word! Eeek! What's evil?live? In my eyes, if I was freezing to
death, I would not consider using an animal's carcass for warmth
evil. But if some animal did that to my son or brother, I would
consider it evil. Evil is in the eye of the beholder. (That's what
makes beholders so dangerous. Bah.. goddamn AD&D pun monster.).

Insect spirits aren't evil. Or, they do not need to be. But we die to
give them life. The Wasp queen in the ship I mentioned considered
investing a host giving it eternal life and contentment as a spirit
creature - a wonderful gift... while the character saw it as death,
and then eternal slavery to the hive - also true. It's all in the
eye of the beholder. That is what makes it so terrible, and so
fascinating.




--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 4
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Here there be insect shamans...
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:37:15 EST
<snipped Justin's remarks on "kinder" insect shamans>

Justin, I just have to say that I agree with you in the variety factor of
Insect Shaman's in general. I know we play more "out-of-bounds" than most,
but it is something we've pursued before.

Binder, when he signed up for the CAS Military once, met an "Ant Shaman" that
also wanted to sign up. He felt that his "greater hive" (his nation) was
being attacked by forces that he could help with. It made for an interesting
couple of small games. It also showed Binder that "it takes all kinds..."

Webster (my Spider Shaman) actually struck up HUGE bargains with Free Firefly
True Forms in the CCZ and helped them escape. They became one of the most
unusual and beneficial contacts of the game at the time for quite a while.
They simply left one day to pursue "other desires" and haven't been seen much
in the game since.

"Masada" a converted Beetle-turned-Spider True Form is one of the most
interesting variations on a "Security Guard" that has been in the games
possibly ever.

"Bavi" a Free Cicada True From was for almost a year a major NPC that went
-everywhere- with the group. That was one comedic event after another, at
least until Bavi got "stolen" by someone else...

And those are just a few where "evil" isn't run of the mill for those
"Bugs..."

-K
Message no. 5
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Here there be insect shamans...
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:14:40 -0500
> From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
> Date: Tuesday, March 03, 1998 11:37 PM

> <snipped Justin's remarks on "kinder" insect shamans>

> Justin, I just have to say that I agree with you in the variety factor of
> Insect Shaman's in general. I know we play more "out-of-bounds" than
most,
> but it is something we've pursued before.

<Snip example>

See, that's great. An example where bugs aren't evil incarnate. Here's
another point to ponder on this issue - Mantid Spirits.

I have heard many people refer to Mantid Spirits as the good guys of bugs
because they fight against the other bugs. Well, from a (meta)human
perspective, that may seem to be the case, but....

What if they are the only truly evil bugs? Let's think about it....they're
feeding on their own kind (not necessarily the same species, but other bug
spirits). Then again, the females do eat the males after copulation.
Hmm...

See, they could have their own agenda (of course they do). What if this
agenda was the typical world domination. But, because they are so
powerful, they have an upper hand if they are careful. They can try to
eliminate the competition. They ARE pretty powerful bugs.

I just like to see variety. Bugs aren't always evil. They're just
different. Mantids aren't necessarily the good guys of bugs....it could be
just the opposite. And, this is important, the human perspective of the
motivations of bugs isn't necessarily accurate.

> -K

Justin :)
Message no. 6
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Here there be insect shamans...
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:17:16 EST
In a message dated 98-03-04 08:15:34 EST, vanyel@*******.NET writes:

> See, that's great. An example where bugs aren't evil incarnate. Here's
> another point to ponder on this issue - Mantid Spirits.
>
<snipped examples of stuff>

Okay, at this time a memory recap. I believe there is a pretty powerful group
that the former VP-turned-Presidential runner-up is a part of that as players
we know is backed by a "Mantic Cabal".

I don't have the modules, else I'd give example(s).

We also had a Mantid Spirit running loose at one time, she's actually part of
Fuchi (Villier's Camp) security (Mike would remember possibly).

-K
Message no. 7
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Here there be insect shamans...
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:03:18 +0000
Justin wrote:
> I just like to see variety. Bugs aren't always evil. They're just
> different. Mantids aren't necessarily the good guys of bugs....it could be
> just the opposite. And, this is important, the human perspective of the
> motivations of bugs isn't necessarily accurate.

The description of Mantids in the grimmy says..
'Generally considered destructive and malign'...

Doesn't sound like 'good guys of bugs' or 'friendly' to me... :)
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 8
From: Benjamin Eriksen <benjamin.eriksen@******.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Here there be insect shamans...
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:18:21 +0100
At 18:16 03.03.98 -0500, you wrote:

>
><Snip>
>
>While I can definitely see your point, I feel this interpretation of Insect
>Shamans in general is very limiting. What about an Insect Shaman who is
>kind-hearted, well-meaning, a pacifist, a charity supporter, and an
>environmentalist? Impossible? Definitely not. I actually designed and
>played a PC who was all this and more....he was an Ant Shaman. He worked
>with the homeless to shelter and feed them. It was his life's ambition to
>benefit the hive, but that can be done in many ways. Remember, people can
>be VOLUNTARILY inhabited by an insect spirit, and some are. This doesn't
>mean they are necessarily crazy, it just means they believe in the cause,
>or perhaps they want that sense of family they never had before, etc.
>
>The examples can go on and on. As a house rule, I don't make people lose
>their memories when they merge. I have the mind of the spirit merge with
>the mind of the host. In essence, the (Meta)human just got more
>powerful...that's very attractive to some people.
>
>Just because Insect Spirits are alien, doesn't mean they are evil.
>Seriously, we eat animals all the time and don't think twice about it.
>What's the difference between that and some other intelligent race coming
>and eating us? We're the target - that's the only difference. It's not
>evil, it's just a way of life. It's simply different than ours, so it's
>easy to lump into one category instead of thinking about.
>
>My main concern with this topic is that many GMs are doing a disservice to
>their PCs/NPCs by forcing all Insect Shamans/Queens/Spirits, etc. to be
>evil. That's just so....limiting.
>
>> Just my five cents' worth.
>
>Just my 100NY worth.
>
>> B.
>
>Justin
>
>
Good point, but I'd like to add that I did *not* define insect
spirits/shamans as evil as such, merely - as you yourself put it - alien.
As for the bit about how they come here to eat us, I can list a series of
good reasons why that would be "so bad"... :) No flaming intended, I just
tend to view insect spirits as a sort of creature whose home is really on
the astral or some metaplane and *not* mundane space. They are actually
invading Earth! (Sound of ambulance closing, followed by forceful donning
of a straitjacket...)
In the other respects of your observation, it was very enlightening.
B.
Message no. 9
From: "Graves, Durand E. (Temporary at ALCOA)" <Durand.Graves@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Here there be insect shamans...
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:00:24 -0500
On Wednesday, March 04, 1998 11:18 AM Benjamin Eriksen Writes:

<snip Justin>

> Good point, but I'd like to add that I did *not* define insect
>spirits/shamans as evil as such, merely - as you yourself put it - alien.
>As for the bit about how they come here to eat us, I can list a series of
>good reasons why that would be "so bad"... :) No flaming intended, I
just
>tend to view insect spirits as a sort of creature whose home is really on
>the astral or some metaplane and *not* mundane space. They are actually
>invading Earth! (Sound of ambulance closing, followed by forceful donning
>of a straitjacket...)
>In the other respects of your observation, it was very enlightening.
> B.


I'm writing this out of pure opinion, as I haven't read much on the "Bugs"
(I probably should). I don't understand how it is that they are invading
us. They've been here SOOOO much longer. Somewhere I read that for every
human there is 1M ants. I play a Spider shamanic PAD(whether a Spider is
considered a bug is being debated elsewhere) and I don't think He's so bad.
Sure, he has to eat human flesh every other day(he's a ghoul) but he tends
to go after the "baddies" He uses his need for flesh to assert his Spider's
"domain" if you will (very similar to Bull's write-up of a Spider PAD) He
fleshes out (no pun intended) the lowliest of the bad people and works his
way up. So far the Spider has been good to him. I do agree, however, that
there is a definite "strangeness" about an insect shaman, they tend to be
more enigmatic, plotting, and devious-creating ". . .plans within
plans."(-Dune) But they don't have to be EVIL. Look at nature-what did
the wildebeest do to the wolves to deserve such a vicious attack. Nothing-
it's called survival and procreation. Insects, IMHO, aren't much
different, they just have a more "intelligent" and devious way of doing
things.


-DEG.
the humbled, now off the soapbox, newbie
Message no. 10
From: Benjamin Eriksen <benjamin.eriksen@******.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Here there be insect shamans...
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:30:49 +0100
At 12:00 04.03.98 -0500, you wrote:

>I'm writing this out of pure opinion, as I haven't read much on the "Bugs"
>(I probably should). I don't understand how it is that they are invading
>us. They've been here SOOOO much longer. Somewhere I read that for every
>human there is 1M ants. I play a Spider shamanic PAD(whether a Spider is
>considered a bug is being debated elsewhere) and I don't think He's so bad.
> Sure, he has to eat human flesh every other day(he's a ghoul) but he tends
>to go after the "baddies" He uses his need for flesh to assert his Spider's
>"domain" if you will (very similar to Bull's write-up of a Spider PAD) He
>fleshes out (no pun intended) the lowliest of the bad people and works his
>way up. So far the Spider has been good to him. I do agree, however, that
>there is a definite "strangeness" about an insect shaman, they tend to be
>more enigmatic, plotting, and devious-creating ". . .plans within
>plans."(-Dune) But they don't have to be EVIL. Look at nature-what did
>the wildebeest do to the wolves to deserve such a vicious attack. Nothing-
>it's called survival and procreation. Insects, IMHO, aren't much
>different, they just have a more "intelligent" and devious way of doing
>things.
>
>
>-DEG.
>the humbled, now off the soapbox, newbie
>
>
Like I said, I agree that insect spirits are *not* inherently evil. To
move on, I think the concept of playing a ghoul in a campaign is an
interesting one. Also, I agree that the bugs are the most populous species
on planet Earth. It's the bug spirits that started popping up after insect
shamans started conjuring them that has me scared outta my Darwinian hide.
Now there is a lot to be said about both the caster's personality and the
totem's ditto when the shaman conjures up a spirit - What's the spirit's
motivation? Is it a separate, sentient entity? Will it freely work
alongside the shaman or does it have some ulterior motive which it values
higher than its servitude to its conjurer? All these questions should be
- and are - asked regarding introducing insect spirits into a campaign.
In our campaigns (I regularly play with Fade) we have, more or less,
accepted playing Spider PAD's and are currently delving into accepting
Mantis PAD's or shamans. The main reasons for accepting Spider as a PAD
totem is that it seemed that its main motivation was to exterminate bug
spirits, which, in the conjecture of our campaign, seemed like a plausible
motivation for a PC, or any (meta)human for that matter. Moreover, it
seemed that PAD's following totems were less subject to the personality
changes inherent in the shamanic archetype.
B.
Message no. 11
From: Chris Hayes <chris_hayes@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Here there be insect shamans...
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:47:49 -0800
> On Wednesday, March 04, 1998 11:18 AM Benjamin Eriksen Writes:
>
> <snip Justin>
>
> > Good point, but I'd like to add that I did *not* define insect
> >spirits/shamans as evil as such, merely - as you yourself put it - alien.
> >As for the bit about how they come here to eat us, I can list a series of
> >good reasons why that would be "so bad"... :) No flaming intended, I
> just
> >tend to view insect spirits as a sort of creature whose home is really on
> >the astral or some metaplane and *not* mundane space. They are actually
> >invading Earth! (Sound of ambulance closing, followed by forceful donning
> >of a straitjacket...)
> >In the other respects of your observation, it was very enlightening.
> > B.
>
>
> I'm writing this out of pure opinion, as I haven't read much on the
"Bugs"
> (I probably should). I don't understand how it is that they are invading
> us. They've been here SOOOO much longer. Somewhere I read that for every
> human there is 1M ants. I play a Spider shamanic PAD(whether a Spider is
> considered a bug is being debated elsewhere) and I don't think He's so
bad.
> Sure, he has to eat human flesh every other day(he's a ghoul) but he
tends
> to go after the "baddies" He uses his need for flesh to assert his
Spider's
> "domain" if you will (very similar to Bull's write-up of a Spider PAD) He
> fleshes out (no pun intended) the lowliest of the bad people and works his
> way up. So far the Spider has been good to him. I do agree, however,
that
> there is a definite "strangeness" about an insect shaman, they tend to be
> more enigmatic, plotting, and devious-creating ". . .plans within
> plans."(-Dune) But they don't have to be EVIL. Look at nature-what did
> the wildebeest do to the wolves to deserve such a vicious attack.
Nothing-
> it's called survival and procreation. Insects, IMHO, aren't much
> different, they just have a more "intelligent" and devious way of doing
> things.
>
>
> -DEG.
> the humbled, now off the soapbox, newbie
>

I've been a silent observer on the list, sort of reading the threads that
would go through and just see if I could glean any knowledge from the good
people of the list who have been playing SR for a lot longer than I have.
So far, it's been a real good experience, and many of the suggestions I've
read have been passed on to my own GM. However this is a subject that I
feel I should speak about...
So far there have been lots of threads on the list dealing with insect
shamans, totems, and bugs. And there have been lots of opinions being
lobbed at each other whether or not insects are evil, or just misunderstood,
or something else...And I also know that a lot of you have house rules out
there, and in no way do I want to critisize any house rules out there, nor
do I want anyone to feel that I'm calling your opinions stupid or wrong or
anything degrading. I am spouting my own opinion here....Okay so now that
all of that is out of the way-

I think that a lot of you are missing the point, or the feel for the game
that FASA is trying to create. If you read Universal Brotherhood, or Bug
City, or Burning Bright (which is the best SR novel I've read so far) you
don't get the feel that the Insects and their shamans, are just looking for
a vacation spot here on Earth, or that they've been oppressed for too long
and they just want to be recognized too. The feel that I get is that these
Insects (and their shamans) are the greatest threat to our world that we've
seen so far in the 6th world.
(As another disclaimar, I don't feel that Spiders fall into this
category...yet. Although I don't feel that they are the same as Insects
(and thier shamans) neither do I feel that they are on the same category as
Dog, or Cat, or even Shark totems either. They are a different type of
totem, and I'm reserving my opinion until more "facts" are revealed.)
Now as to people saying they're evil, I don't agree. As Durand stated
above...the wolf is not evil because he ate the wildebeast. I feel that the
Insects are trying to survive, and they are doing this the only way they
know how. I don't think that there are any malevolent intentions behind
their actions. However, using the same analogy, I don't really think the
wildebeast cares whether or not the wolf is just trying to survive. So is
the wildebeast, and he will do what he can to ensure that survival. The
same is true on our end.
In the 6th world, we are no longer on the top of the food chain. Besides
Dragons, and other Paranormal animals out there that can also have us for
lunch, there is a force (Insects and their shamans) that has intelligence
and who plans on ensuring their survival at our expense. Therefore, the
more they survive, the less that we do. The people in the 6th world can't
let that happen.
A lot of other people talk about how they have insect spirits floatin'
around doing their own thing in their campaigns. That's fine, and I'm not
going to say that's wrong, but again, I think you're missing what FASA
intended with the spirits. Again, going back to UB, BC, and BB those books
didn't inspire in me the feeling of peaceful coexistance with the bugs. I
didn't get the feeling that these bugs are just another meta-type, and soon
we'll be seeing elves, orcs, dwarves and bugs walking down the street.
Neither did I feel that the bugs are going to stay on their side, and we
will stay on ours. The feeling I got was that the bugs need us to survive,
and they are going to use us until there is nothing left to use.
Again, it seems to me that the introduction of the bugs was a wake up call
to us saying, "Hey, all these things in the six world aren't cool or wiz.
There are things out there that will scare the drek out of you if you're
lucky, and if you're not, you won't have to worry about any drek inside you
ever again..." It looks as if the bugs are the greatest threat to SR's
society since the Horrors, if you believe in the ED/SR crossover, or even if
you don't they're the greatest threat to SR society since the MegaCorps.
Are the insects "evil"? No. Would you like to meet one on the street and
say, "Hey chummer, how's your wife and eggs?" Maybe depending on your GM
and own house rules, but I just don't think that FASA intended it this way.
One last example...Were the aliens in ID4 "evil"? No. Were you as glad as
I was when Will Smith sent a nuke up their Tailpipe? Maybe.
Message no. 12
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Here there be insect shamans...
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:38:23 +0000
> In our campaigns (I regularly play with Fade)
Welcome to the list, Benjamin! :)

( *sigh* No more airing adventure ideas, or throwing campaign
ideas out for testing. TFB.).


> we have, more or less,
> accepted playing Spider PAD's and are currently delving into accepting
> Mantis PAD's or shamans. The main reasons for accepting Spider as a PAD
> totem is that it seemed that its main motivation was to exterminate bug
> spirits, which, in the conjecture of our campaign, seemed like a plausible
> motivation for a PC, or any (meta)human for that matter. Moreover, it
> seemed that PAD's following totems were less subject to the personality
> changes inherent in the shamanic archetype.

Aaahrm..... first thing I heard of any of that, which accounts for
the 'more or less' line, I guess. :) But then, I'm just a player, at
the moment, and not privy to any changes.

The rest of this post is my opinions and does not reflect on any
campaign, real or imagined.

As for spider/mantis PAD's.. well. The bit on insect spirits I wrote
earlier would support that, since it drew an extremely clear line
between insect spirits and insect shamans... that is, insect shamans
was perfectly ordinary shamans (Can only conjure nature
spirits) which was just more likely to be 'corrupted' by insect
spirits - not entirely unlike the 'toxic insect shaman' idea someone
else mentioned. I would make neither spider nor mantis
shamans particularily interested in hunting 'bugs' - in the same way
I wouldn't make a hawk shaman's main adversary paranormal doves and
pigeons. Totems are defined out of an idea of what they do, not what
they eat.

I'd imagine spider as a patient schemer, and fairly good shaman
material. Mantis, though, as a creature, is associated with
cannibalism, killing and eating its mates and being a fairly elegant
hunter.. not good shaman material, and not something to accept in
general as a PC. Who would want to work with a cannibal?

umm.. DON'T ANSWER THAT QUESTION! IT WAS RETHORICAL!!!

Anyone want a female troll mantis shaman in their team?
(With, appropriately, a control emotions or actions spell, I'd
guess.. some fairly sick images and a fairly short career for several
in the team springs to mind.).





--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 13
From: THADEUSv20 <THADEUSv20@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Here there be insect shamans...
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 03:05:21 EST
In a message dated 98-03-03 18:18:20 EST, you write:

<< Just because Insect Spirits are alien, doesn't mean they are evil.
Seriously, we eat animals all the time and don't think twice about it.
What's the difference between that and some other intelligent race coming
and eating us? We're the target - that's the only difference. It's not
evil, it's just a way of life. It's simply different than ours, so it's
easy to lump into one category instead of thinking about.

My main concern with this topic is that many GMs are doing a disservice to
their PCs/NPCs by forcing all Insect Shamans/Queens/Spirits, etc. to be
evil. That's just so....limiting. >>

It's not that they are evil just alien. Really alien. Characters cannot
fathom the mind of an insect spirit anymore than we can undestand the mind of
the animals we eat. The whole point of the insect spirit is that they eat the
characters soul(Essence whatever). That is what is supposed to terrify us.
They are not always at cross purpose with the rest of society. BUT if allowed
to live without predators (I.E. The rest of the (meta)human race ,mantis, and
spider spirits and shamen) then we will die. now any character who has a
modicum of self-preservation will kill the bug as quickly as possible. Just
my ever humble opinion
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Here there be insect shamans...
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:59:41 +0100
Chris Hayes said on 9:47/ 4 Mar 98...

> Now as to people saying they're evil, I don't agree.

Same here. IMHO trying to divide things in SR into "good" and "evil"
won't
work, because things aren't that clear-cut. If you play **&*, sure,
anything and everything can be put into one of nine groups, but in SR
almost everything hangs somewhere in the middle.

Plus, I personally don't believe in absolutes when it comes to people.

> One last example...Were the aliens in ID4 "evil"? No. Were you as glad as
> I was when Will Smith sent a nuke up their Tailpipe? Maybe.

The only thing I was glad about when it comes to ID4 was when it was over
and I realized I hadn't paid any money to watch it :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I want to see the ground give way, I want to watch it all go down.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 15
From: Janni Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Here there be insect shamans...
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:50:31 +0100
Justin Pinnow wrote:
> I just like to see variety. Bugs aren't always evil. They're just
> different. Mantids aren't necessarily the good guys of bugs....it could be
> just the opposite. And, this is important, the human perspective of the
> motivations of bugs isn't necessarily accurate.

This may be true, but its is nevertheless beside the point. One canot
objectively argue that one animal or another is evil in its nature. But this
does not prevent us members of a different species from subjectively viewing
insects as evil as a result of various deeply seated fears.
An instictive reaction that is based on a long evolution.

What I am trying to say is that the fear of lizards or insects etc. as well
as the good emotions asosiated with babyfaces or sounds etc.
is based on certain paterns that have a great influence on human behaviour.

I for my self find it a great deal more enjoyable to capitalize on those
emotions in order to evoke a more compeling atmosphere instead of trying
to present insect spirits as good or even just not-evil.

--
I've been asked if vi was an easy editor to learn, whether it was intuitive
or not. My general response to this question is: "Yes, some of us think so.
But most people think that we are crazy."
Message no. 16
From: Jim Riegel <riegelja@*****.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Here there be insect shamans...
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:43:35 -0500
-----Original Message-----From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>

To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Tuesday, March 03, 1998 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: Here there be insect shamans...



>Just because Insect Spirits are alien, doesn't mean they are evil.
>Seriously, we eat animals all the time and don't think twice about it.
>What's the difference between that and some other intelligent race coming
>and eating us? We're the target - that's the only difference. It's not
>evil, it's just a way of life. It's simply different than ours, so it's
>easy to lump into one category instead of thinking about.
>
>My main concern with this topic is that many GMs are doing a disservice to
>their PCs/NPCs by forcing all Insect Shamans/Queens/Spirits, etc. to be
>evil. That's just so....limiting.
>
>> Just my five cents' worth.
>
>Just my 100NY worth.
>
>> B.
>
>Justin
>
Hrm...I would have to agree mostly with what been said about the insect
sprits/shamans so far..going through a few runs dealing with the UB and a
inscet shaman stealing orgainic tissue (belonging to mages of course) from
Doc Wagon, I can say that these are not nice guys/gals...true in nature bugs
aren't good or evil, they just 'are'. But this isn't nature we're dealing
with..whens the last time anyone went walking and saw a greater armidillo
wandering around?? When we play shadowrun some laws of nature stop
working..also...I would consider some non inscet shamans out there to be
'evil' or 'good'. I mean I've had a best chummer who was a wolverine shaman
and an arch foe being a cat shaman...My rule of thumb..find a hive or any
buggers..run away..move..let lonestar handle them..(laugh..as well as they
can handle them anyway)

J

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Here there be insect shamans..., you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!