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Message no. 1
From: Gweedo The Killer Pimp <yawas@****.COM>
Subject: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 01:03:31 EST
People tell me, where are hermetic libraries located? Is there like only
one in Seattle, or are they common place everywhere? Also, is there any
other place that a mage can conjure an elemental?


Now using Gweedo the Killer Pimp ver. 3.1 sporting such features as:
A poleyester leisure suit, platform shoes, a pink cadillac, fuzzy dice,
and a gold tooth!
Message no. 2
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 04:23:04 -0500
At 01:03 AM 3/30/97 EST, Gweedo The Killer Pimp wrote these timeless words:
>People tell me, where are hermetic libraries located? Is there like only
>one in Seattle, or are they common place everywhere? Also, is there any
>other place that a mage can conjure an elemental?
>
Hermetic Libraries: These are personal Libraries put together and stored
by each individual Mage. That's why you have to purchase them...

These can be stored on Disk, or can be all Books and Tomes...

You CAN use other Libraries to do research, though these tend to be off
limits most of the time... Most notably, Universities with a Magical
Studies program will have such a library, but this is only available to
students of the program, usually, and will be restricted to mostly lower
level, non-combat oriented spells... After all, Universities aren't
training Shadowrunners...:]

These can be pretty much anything, though...

As for Conjuring Elementals, this can be done pretty much anywhere, as long
as the Mage draws his circles and prepares the site ahead of time... This
is all part of the summoning ritual, which takes a number of hours equal to
the Force of the Summoned Elemental, IIRC.

Chaos, answering Bull's Magical mail
Message no. 3
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 18:16:42 +1000
> People tell me, where are hermetic libraries located? Is there like only
> one in Seattle, or are they common place everywhere? Also, is there any
> other place that a mage can conjure an elemental?
>

Every major corp in Seattle would have one (for each skill) of some
rating.... depends on what the corp (or sub division) is into how good it
is. Universities would also have one each, though generally not as good as
the corps (funding being what it is)

The government would also maintain private libraries, but they'd be just
as hard to get into as the corp libraries. I can see NO (Nil, zip, nada)
existence of public sorcery libraries, with slightly more existence of
conjuring and enchanting libraries.

The reason for this is simple; It is very much akin to giving every
ganger on the street an Uzi, AND training them how to shoot. A society
of mages with easy access to good spells would be a nightmare for the law
enforcement. They may be only one percentage of the population, but
they're a powerful 1%

Having said that, I'd assume that you can get a pirate library through
approprite contacts (talismonger/ other mages, etc.), though they will
likely be illegal of suppressed.

[/rant mode engaged]
(Freedom of information notwithstanding; I have a friend up on a charge
of "being in possesion of information detailing the manufacture pof a
dangerous narcotic".... namely a book on how to grow pot. Depends on the
locality, of course..... but all you guys that own the Jolly Rogers look
out; You could go down for terrorist conspiracies if the government gets
pissed enough.)
Magical Libraries would be v. similar, in my opinion

[/rant mode ter terminated]

Anyway, if you can afford them and have the contacts, you can get them.
Hard copy would be harder for a street mage to get, but you can assume
that electronic versions are pirated from various corps and universities.


Bleach
Message no. 4
From: Shane Courtrille <hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 02:09:42 +0000
> students of the program, usually, and will be restricted to mostly lower
> level, non-combat oriented spells... After all, Universities aren't
> training Shadowrunners...:]

Speaking of that... has anyone gotten bored and made a bunch of
totally useless (combat wise) spells? like things people would learn
in school and such? :)

Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 11:36:28 +0100
Gweedo The Killer Pimp said on 1:03/30 Mar 97...

> People tell me, where are hermetic libraries located? Is there like only
> one in Seattle, or are they common place everywhere? Also, is there any
> other place that a mage can conjure an elemental?

A "library" is just a collection of written-down knowledge. It can be a
building full of books, one hard drive filled with data, a collection of
optical chips, or anything else that can store information.

You have to have one at hand to conjure an elemental, that's right, but
if you have a computerized library you can take it virtually anywhere and
do your summoning from there. With books that's a lot harder, and so your
only options there are to rent a semitrailer and carry your books to the
site you've chosen, or draw a hermetic circle in the room that holds your
library.

For shadowrunners and others who might get in trouble with lots of people,
libraries on chip or CD are the way to go.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
and there are those, there are those who think
that drastic actions will make them unique
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 6
From: Benjamin Pflugmann
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 19:18:31 +0100
>
> > students of the program, usually, and will be restricted to mostly lower
> > level, non-combat oriented spells... After all, Universities aren't
> > training Shadowrunners...:]
>
> Speaking of that... has anyone gotten bored and made a bunch of
> totally useless (combat wise) spells? like things people would learn
> in school and such? :)

Hm. I guess that the spells you would learn are not only useless, but more
in the kind of defensive spells, healing spells and so ("white" magic, you
know? :-)

But I like the idea of some trainig spells...

but sorry, atm. no one comes to my mind. I keep the idea in mind.

>
> Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca
>

Bye,

Benjamin.


--
pfb08188@*****.physik.uni-regensburg.de
benjamin@*****.leibniz.in-passau.de
Message no. 7
From: Benjamin Pflugmann
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 19:35:20 +0100
> As for Conjuring Elementals, this can be done pretty much anywhere, as long
> as the Mage draws his circles and prepares the site ahead of time... This
> is all part of the summoning ritual, which takes a number of hours equal to
> the Force of the Summoned Elemental, IIRC.

Hm. Grimoire (german edition), page 46:

Conjuring of Elementals

... In any case the mage needs a _conjuring library_ and a hermetic circle
of correct kind, and the rating of both must be at least as high as the
rating of the wished elemental. ...

So... one will need the library...

Bye,

Benjamin.


--
pfb08188@*****.physik.uni-regensburg.de
benjamin@*****.leibniz.in-passau.de
Message no. 8
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 14:08:49 EST
On Sun, 30 Mar 1997 01:03:31 EST Gweedo The Killer Pimp <yawas@****.COM>
writes:
>People tell me, where are hermetic libraries located? Is there like
>only one in Seattle, or are they common place everywhere? Also, is
>there any other place that a mage can conjure an elemental?
>

A mage purchases his hermetic library at whatever rating, then he owns a
hermetic library of the appropriate skill and rating. They exist as
books, as data stored on optical chips, and as data in some other form (I
don't remember what off-hand). They can be purshased anywhere such things
would be sold (most lore stores, some bookstores, etc. I would think).
Presumably, there could also be one that exists on-line, in which you buy
a subscription. Such a thing might have an unbelievable rating. And a
mage can summon an elemental anywhere he has enough space to draw his
circle (assuming he has appropriate materials).

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 9
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 09:28:44 +1000
> For shadowrunners and others who might get in trouble with lots of people,
> libraries on chip or CD are the way to go.
>

Definite negative on the style points, though *grin*

On the curiosity side, can anyone dredge up the legality codes for
magical libraries? (I don't have the books immediately handy)

Bleach
Message no. 10
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 09:31:18 +1000
> Hm. Grimoire (german edition), page 46:
>
> Conjuring of Elementals
>
> ... In any case the mage needs a _conjuring library_ and a hermetic circle
> of correct kind, and the rating of both must be at least as high as the
> rating of the wished elemental. ...
>

Heh... I wish I'd known that when one of my players conjured a force 15
earth elemental.

Brutus (the elemental) is so much a part of the game now that I wouldn't
bother retrospectively enforcing the rules, though. Besides, five force 3
air elementals and he ceases to exist.

Bleach.
Message no. 11
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 09:32:50 +1000
> >People tell me, where are hermetic libraries located? Is there like
> >only one in Seattle, or are they common place everywhere? Also, is
> >there any other place that a mage can conjure an elemental?
> >
>
> A mage purchases his hermetic library at whatever rating, then he owns a
> hermetic library of the appropriate skill and rating. They exist as
> books, as data stored on optical chips, and as data in some other form (I
> don't remember what off-hand). They can be purshased anywhere such things
> would be sold (most lore stores, some bookstores, etc. I would think).
> Presumably, there could also be one that exists on-line, in which you buy
> a subscription. Such a thing might have an unbelievable rating. And a
> mage can summon an elemental anywhere he has enough space to draw his
> circle (assuming he has appropriate materials).
>

Yeah right.... Subscription libraries; Arm AND train the masses.

I guess it makes a good way of monitoring mages, assuming you believe you
can keep track of everybody.
Message no. 12
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 18:57:44 -0500
> > Hm. Grimoire (german edition), page 46:
> >
> > Conjuring of Elementals
> >
> > ... In any case the mage needs a _conjuring library_ and a hermetic circle
> > of correct kind, and the rating of both must be at least as high as the
> > rating of the wished elemental. ...
> >
>
> Heh... I wish I'd known that when one of my players conjured a force 15
> earth elemental.
>
> Brutus (the elemental) is so much a part of the game now that I wouldn't
> bother retrospectively enforcing the rules, though. Besides, five force 3
> air elementals and he ceases to exist.

What the %&*#!! A force 15 elemental... What is the story behind this?!
How did he manage that? And if you check out the rules on spirit combat
(p143 main book), you'll see that the Brutus isn't likely to be going away
any time soon... Especially if he is a free spirit.

By the way, I don't know if you know this or not, but the library and
elemental circle are the least of the problems of summoning a force 15
elemental.. Shesh..force 15 (shakes his head)
Message no. 13
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 10:35:53 +1000
> > Heh... I wish I'd known that when one of my players conjured a force 15
> > earth elemental.
> >
> > Brutus (the elemental) is so much a part of the game now that I wouldn'=
t
> > bother retrospectively enforcing the rules, though. Besides, five forc=
e 3
> > air elementals and he ceases to exist.
>
> What the %&*#!! A force 15 elemental... What is the story behind this?!
> How did he manage that? And if you check out the rules on spirit combat
> (p143 main book), you'll see that the Brutus isn't likely to be going awa=
y
> any time soon... Especially if he is a free spirit.
>

He managed it by doing it out of game, showing me that he spent upwards
of 550,000 ¥ trying to get services, and then having me forget the rules=

about Library Ratings.

Look, my players bitched about spell force rating being limited by magic
theory, so the library concept was totally alien to them (at the time).

O.K., spirit combat. Elementals of opposing types, ie Earth and Air, or
Fire and Water, do not work of an opposed success test. Rather it's an
outright subtraction, with the smaller elemental being obliterated, and
the larger being permanently (I hope) reduced in force.

Brutus is currently force 12, because of a tangle with a force 3 air
elemental. The player took the lesson to heart and now no longer uses him,=

except when the situation really asks for it, so I'm content to leave it
alone. So are the rest of the GM's in the group.

It's called 'hedge theory'.

> By the way, I don't know if you know this or not, but the library and
> elemental circle are the least of the problems of summoning a force 15
> elemental.. Shesh..force 15 (shakes his head)
>
Not that hard.... the character is an elf with 8 charisma and (I believe)=

an appropriate spirit focus. Hell, he's got 15 or so Karma pool, so he
could burn re-rolls and auto-successes on a conjuring test to re-summon it=

if he wanted to.

There is really very little a veteran character can not do if he sets his=

mind to it.

Of course, he's VERY nice to his elementals, because most of them will go=

free if he takes a deadly wound... The last thing you need are a Force 7,=

two Force 8 and a Force 12 Free Spirit after your hide.


BTW; Another point on spirit combat. If you're desperate, conjure your
full complement of watchers and send them in with the elementals....
Friends In Melee works even in astral. I've seen six watchers tear a
force five elemental to bits with no outside help.

Bleach
Message no. 14
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 20:12:42 EST
On Mon, 31 Mar 1997 09:31:18 +1000 "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD"
<s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU> writes:
>> Hm. Grimoire (german edition), page 46:
>>
>> Conjuring of Elementals
>>
>> ... In any case the mage needs a _conjuring library_ and a hermetic
>circle
>> of correct kind, and the rating of both must be at least as high as
>the
>> rating of the wished elemental. ...
>>
>
>Heh... I wish I'd known that when one of my players conjured a force 15
>earth elemental.
>
>Brutus (the elemental) is so much a part of the game now that I wouldn't
>bother retrospectively enforcing the rules, though. Besides, five force
3
>air elementals and he ceases to exist.
>
>Bleach.
>

Now here's a question: would you allow a magician to turn an elemental
into an ally spirit?

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 15
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 20:12:43 EST
On Mon, 31 Mar 1997 09:32:50 +1000 "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD"
<s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU> writes:
>> >People tell me, where are hermetic libraries located? Is there
>like
>> >only one in Seattle, or are they common place everywhere? Also, is
>> >there any other place that a mage can conjure an elemental?
>> >
>>
>> A mage purchases his hermetic library at whatever rating, then he owns
a
>> hermetic library of the appropriate skill and rating. They exist as
>> books, as data stored on optical chips, and as data in some other form
(I
>> don't remember what off-hand). They can be purshased anywhere such
things
>> would be sold (most lore stores, some bookstores, etc. I would think).
>> Presumably, there could also be one that exists on-line, in which you
buy
>> a subscription. Such a thing might have an unbelievable rating. And a
>> mage can summon an elemental anywhere he has enough space to draw his
>> circle (assuming he has appropriate materials).
>>
>
>Yeah right.... Subscription libraries; Arm AND train the masses.
>
>I guess it makes a good way of monitoring mages, assuming you believe
you
>can keep track of everybody.
>

Honestly, i don't buy the bit about restricting access to those kinds of
things. It doesn't make sense to me. I can see where a university library
might not include things like combat spells or how a public on might have
very little information on it, but, with the freedom of the presses as it
is and with the freedom of speech, I don't see how they (meaning the UCAS
govt.) could legally restrict the procduction or access to such
materials. It's one thing to require a license for the practice of magic
or of certain spells or types of spells, but I'm not buying the idea that
UCAS citizens wouldn't have legal access to that kind of thing, if they
wanted it.

--
-Canthros ("Restrict MY freedoms, huh?" ZOT!!!)
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 16
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 11:50:53 +1000
> >Heh... I wish I'd known that when one of my players conjured a force 15
> >earth elemental.
> >
> >Brutus (the elemental) is so much a part of the game now that I wouldn't
> >bother retrospectively enforcing the rules, though. Besides, five force
> 3
> >air elementals and he ceases to exist.
> >
> >Bleach.
> >
>
> Now here's a question: would you allow a magician to turn an elemental
> into an ally spirit?
>

Yes, but not the force 12 one, without some kind of HUGE roleplaying
challenge, and he'd still have to pay karma.

If it's force 12 and he wants it to have decent stats I'd give him a karma
discount, but only because it's going to cost him about 500 karma anyway.

I'd be more prone to give him an 'elemental ally' (so to speak) if it was
a lousy force 3 spirit that had been conjured at day one and re-conjured
dozens of times since.

Bleach
Message no. 17
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 20:59:07 -0500
> >
> > What the %&*#!! A force 15 elemental... What is the story behind this=
?!
> > How did he manage that? And if you check out the rules on spirit comba=
t
> > (p143 main book), you'll see that the Brutus isn't likely to be going a=
way
> > any time soon... Especially if he is a free spirit.
> >
>
> He managed it by doing it out of game, showing me that he spent upwards=

> of 550,000 ¥ trying to get services, and then having me forget the rule=
s
> about Library Ratings.
>
> Look, my players bitched about spell force rating being limited by magic=

> theory, so the library concept was totally alien to them (at the time).
>
Ok, I'm dumb, but where does it say that spell force is limited by magic
theory?

> O.K., spirit combat. Elementals of opposing types, ie Earth and Air, or=

> Fire and Water, do not work of an opposed success test. Rather it's an=

> outright subtraction, with the smaller elemental being obliterated, and=

> the larger being permanently (I hope) reduced in force.

I don't know what it says is the Grimoire, but in the main book the
example they use is a water elemental vs a fire elemental, and they do use
opposed successes in that example. That may have been changed in the
Grimoire, but I don't know...

>
> Brutus is currently force 12, because of a tangle with a force 3 air
> elemental. The player took the lesson to heart and now no longer uses hi=
m,
> except when the situation really asks for it, so I'm content to leave it=

> alone. So are the rest of the GM's in the group.
>
How many services did they manage to get?


> It's called 'hedge theory'.
>
> > By the way, I don't know if you know this or not, but the library and
> > elemental circle are the least of the problems of summoning a force 15
> > elemental.. Shesh..force 15 (shakes his head)
> >
> Not that hard.... the character is an elf with 8 charisma and (I believe)=

> an appropriate spirit focus. Hell, he's got 15 or so Karma pool, so he=

> could burn re-rolls and auto-successes on a conjuring test to re-summon i=
t
> if he wanted to.
>
> There is really very little a veteran character can not do if he sets his=

> mind to it.
>
Assuming the GM lets them. My GM would make a player with a force 15
elemental role periodic control tests, due to the extreme power of the
elemental.

> Of course, he's VERY nice to his elementals, because most of them will go=

> free if he takes a deadly wound... The last thing you need are a Force 7,=

> two Force 8 and a Force 12 Free Spirit after your hide.
>
>
Ugly situation. THe whole group better hope he doesn't get shot. Who
know what an elemental might due when it is freed.


> BTW; Another point on spirit combat. If you're desperate, conjure your=

> full complement of watchers and send them in with the elementals....
> Friends In Melee works even in astral. I've seen six watchers tear a
> force five elemental to bits with no outside help.

Cool idea. I have always liked watchers personally...
Message no. 18
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 12:01:06 +1000
> >Yeah right.... Subscription libraries; Arm AND train the masses.
> >
> >I guess it makes a good way of monitoring mages, assuming you believe
> you
> >can keep track of everybody.
> >
>
> Honestly, i don't buy the bit about restricting access to those kinds of
> things. It doesn't make sense to me. I can see where a university library
> might not include things like combat spells or how a public on might have
> very little information on it, but, with the freedom of the presses as it
> is and with the freedom of speech, I don't see how they (meaning the UCAS
> govt.) could legally restrict the procduction or access to such
> materials. It's one thing to require a license for the practice of magic
> or of certain spells or types of spells, but I'm not buying the idea that
> UCAS citizens wouldn't have legal access to that kind of thing, if they
> wanted it.
>

Ummm, yeah..... I'm not sure if you caught my post about my aquaintance
who's getting charged with owning a 'dangerous' book.... it does happen.

I understand that we live in different countries, but there are some
similarities. The recent internet decency laws that were passed work
along similar principles.... and it's not a big jump from porn to other
information. (Not that the Joly Rogers or other similar 'net texts are
any good, but it's the principle).

It's probably a bit like detailed info on how to build a working atomic
bomb.... but with spells you don't need raw materials like plutonium.
Combat spells aren't the only dangerous magic. Illusions, detection
spells and health spells can all have potential legal problems accosiated
in their use.

Besides, wanting something only matters if you have the voice to stand up
and be counted, even if you assume that the UCAS works like a perfect
democracy. 1% of the population isn't even a vocal minority.... smaller
than that if you consider that a lot of mages would be employed by corps
and have access to good libraries through their work. Why should they give
two frags about the remaining poor disenfranchised mages out there?

In any case, I'd like to see public spell libraries banned in my game.
In your game it may be different.

Bleach
Message no. 19
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 12:12:48 +1000
> > He managed it by doing it out of game, showing me that he spent upwards=

> > of 550,000 ¥ trying to get services, and then having me forget the ru=
les
> > about Library Ratings.
> >
> > Look, my players bitched about spell force rating being limited by magi=
c
> > theory, so the library concept was totally alien to them (at the time).
> >
> Ok, I'm dumb, but where does it say that spell force is limited by magic
> theory?
>

Probably a left-over from 1st ed that i remember. It's something that I've=

been playing for a long time. Personally I've got the shits how there
are no longer limits on what you can make based on your knowledge base.

Decking is the prime example, where you can make a cutting edge mainframe=

(chips and all) without any theoretical knowledge of computers at all.
The same example applies to magic.

Suffice it to say that I think it makes sense. After much arguement and
debate the current group uses Magic Theory x1.5 as the limit of spells
they can personally design (taught spells are a different story).

> > O.K., spirit combat. Elementals of opposing types, ie Earth and Air, o=
r
> > Fire and Water, do not work of an opposed success test. Rather it's an=

> > outright subtraction, with the smaller elemental being obliterated, and=

> > the larger being permanently (I hope) reduced in force.
>
> I don't know what it says is the Grimoire, but in the main book the
> example they use is a water elemental vs a fire elemental, and they do us=
e
> opposed successes in that example. That may have been changed in the
> Grimoire, but I don't know...
>
It's a rule somewhere, I'm pretty sure.... I remember because I went throug=
h
the books looking for the rules the first time the elemental was used in
spirit combat. It's pretty harsh, because the GM can trash every one of
your elementals in no time flat, but was also the only way to even hurt
Brutus.

> > Brutus is currently force 12, because of a tangle with a force 3 air
> > elemental. The player took the lesson to heart and now no longer uses =
him,
> > except when the situation really asks for it, so I'm content to leave i=
t
> > alone. So are the rest of the GM's in the group.
> >
> How many services did they manage to get?
>
Four or five, from memory. I think he burned karma to do it. Atthe
moment he's got two or three left, and he's hoarding them like an AD$D
characters hoard a ring of three wishes.

> > There is really very little a veteran character can not do if he sets h=
is
> > mind to it.
> >
> Assuming the GM lets them. My GM would make a player with a force 15
> elemental role periodic control tests, due to the extreme power of the
> elemental.
>
That's pretty nasty..... It's a bit like trashing someones brand-spanking=

new quickened Increase Reflexes spell.... Leaves a bit of a legacy.

> > Of course, he's VERY nice to his elementals, because most of them will =
go
> > free if he takes a deadly wound... The last thing you need are a Force =
7,
> > two Force 8 and a Force 12 Free Spirit after your hide.
> >
> Ugly situation. THe whole group better hope he doesn't get shot. Who
> knows what an elemental might due when it is freed.
>

Yeah, I agree..... but who knows what the group would do to the GM if
they all died from someone elses suddenly freed elemental. Ain't politics=

grand.... last thing anyone wants is another 'Gerald Incident'

(In-group joke there, for Lady Jestyr and co.)

> > BTW; Another point on spirit combat. If you're desperate, conjure you=
r
> > full complement of watchers and send them in with the elementals....
> > Friends In Melee works even in astral. I've seen six watchers tear a=

> > force five elemental to bits with no outside help.
>
> Cool idea. I have always liked watchers personally...
>

So have I. it's even better when you get a bunch of mages together and
summon 40 or so..... nothing at all hostile is going to survive in astral=

space.
Message no. 20
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 12:54:44 +1000
> What the %&*#!! A force 15 elemental... What is the story behind this?!
> How did he manage that? And if you check out the rules on spirit combat
> (p143 main book), you'll see that the Brutus isn't likely to be going away
> any time soon... Especially if he is a free spirit.

He's had the elemental for a LOOOOOOONG time, and keeps resummoning it
to get more successes. However, he RARELY uses it due to the cost of
resummoning it and the risks involved.

And no, it's not a free spirit, just a regular elemental (albeit a huge
one). Why the hell would you think it was free?

> By the way, I don't know if you know this or not, but the library and
> elemental circle are the least of the problems of summoning a force 15
> elemental.. Shesh..force 15 (shakes his head)

The summoner had 8 charisma, lotsa willpower, and some godawful amount
of Conjuring.

Anyway, it's not a real balance problem in our game, because it never
gets used.

Lady Jestyr

-----------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect in a world full of icebergs
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 21
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 13:03:05 +1000
> Now here's a question: would you allow a magician to turn an elemental
> into an ally spirit?

I was just pondering the same question, and I think I would, on the
grounds that it didn't upset game balance, and that the elemental had
been bound and used a lot (and probably was decent force too) so that it
had some sort of personality and had a link to its summoner.

Lady Jestyr

-----------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect in a world full of icebergs
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 22
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 13:05:04 +1000
> > What the %&*#!! A force 15 elemental... What is the story behind this?!
> > How did he manage that? And if you check out the rules on spirit combat
> > (p143 main book), you'll see that the Brutus isn't likely to be going away
> > any time soon... Especially if he is a free spirit.
>
> He's had the elemental for a LOOOOOOONG time, and keeps resummoning it
> to get more successes. However, he RARELY uses it due to the cost of
> resummoning it and the risks involved.
>
If he's re-summoning the monster I'd have liked him to do it in front of
the whole group...... since most of us (you) GM at one time or another, it
affects you all.

> > By the way, I don't know if you know this or not, but the library and
> > elemental circle are the least of the problems of summoning a force 15
> > elemental.. Shesh..force 15 (shakes his head)
>
> The summoner had 8 charisma, lotsa willpower, and some godawful amount
> of Conjuring.
>

Willpower doesn't matter squat.... I think drain is resisted off Charisma
for conjuring (from memory)

> Anyway, it's not a real balance problem in our game, because it never
> gets used.
>

Unlike a certain Guardian drone *grin*

Like I said; Hedge theory.
Message no. 23
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 22:06:59 EST
On Mon, 31 Mar 1997 12:01:06 +1000 "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD"
<s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU> writes:
>> >Yeah right.... Subscription libraries; Arm AND train the masses.
>> >
>> >I guess it makes a good way of monitoring mages, assuming you
>believe
>> you
>> >can keep track of everybody.
>> >
>>
>> Honestly, i don't buy the bit about restricting access to those kinds
of
>> things. It doesn't make sense to me. I can see where a university
library
>> might not include things like combat spells or how a public on might
have
>> very little information on it, but, with the freedom of the presses as
it
>> is and with the freedom of speech, I don't see how they (meaning the
UCAS
>> govt.) could legally restrict the procduction or access to such
>> materials. It's one thing to require a license for the practice of
magic
>> or of certain spells or types of spells, but I'm not buying the idea
that
>> UCAS citizens wouldn't have legal access to that kind of thing, if
they
>> wanted it.
>>
>
>Ummm, yeah..... I'm not sure if you caught my post about my aquaintance
>who's getting charged with owning a 'dangerous' book.... it does happen.

Different countries, different laws, different experiences.



>
>I understand that we live in different countries, but there are some
>similarities. The recent internet decency laws that were passed work
>along similar principles.... and it's not a big jump from porn to other
>information. (Not that the Joly Rogers or other similar 'net texts are
>any good, but it's the principle).
>

Actually, I don't believe the Decency Bill has been put into effect yet
(last I heard, it was still before the US Supreme Court).



>It's probably a bit like detailed info on how to build a working atomic
>bomb.... but with spells you don't need raw materials like plutonium.
>Combat spells aren't the only dangerous magic. Illusions, detection
>spells and health spells can all have potential legal problems
accosiated
>in their use.

I don't know...I'm pretty sure I could rig an atom-bomb given enough
ambition and a few thousand dollars. (The Hiroshima bomb, for instance,
was ridiculously simple, mechanically speaking) Used to be that getting
black market nuclear materials (Uranium etc) wasn't too hard with the
break up of the USSR (from what I saw on a TV news show...okay, so it's
not the best of sources). Wouldn't know personally, but I've also heard
you can get the part numbers (and thus order the parts) for one given the
right connections in the US military. In any case, given enough money,
ambition, and time, I'd be willing to bet on being able to build an
A-bomb.

Spells aren't nearly as big a problem for various reasons. First, such a
small portion of the population even has the capability of using them
(<1%). Consider that a large portion of them is tied up in Corporate
security, Government military, various universities, and similar
occupations where they are in a position which is either non-threatening
(unis) or where they would already have access to that kind of info. I
figure that the number of people who are magically active and running the
shadows (or in similarly threatening occupation, like the wiz kids) is
something like one percent of one percent of the total population of the
world. Next, consider how many of those are even mages. By the time you
get down to it, it seems like it would be less than one out of every ten
thousand people would be a mage (and need the libraries) and would also
work in the shadows. If you ask me, the real problem with public
libraries is that they might not contain the kind of information that a
shadowrunner would even find useful.



>
>Besides, wanting something only matters if you have the voice to stand
up
>and be counted, even if you assume that the UCAS works like a perfect
>democracy. 1% of the population isn't even a vocal minority....
smaller
>than that if you consider that a lot of mages would be employed by corps
>and have access to good libraries through their work. Why should they
give
>two frags about the remaining poor disenfranchised mages out there?

It isn't the corpers that would be helping the 'poor, disenfranchised
mages'-it's going to be activist groups and magical groups, people who
either don't need the info themselves or already have as much access to
it as they want. Why? Because the infringement of this freedom could lead
to the infringement of other freedoms.

And there's always the right to bear arms.





>In any case, I'd like to see public spell libraries banned in my game.
>In your game it may be different.

In my game, it will be different. Of course, you'll need to have a valid
SIN to be able purchase a subscription to one, but that comes with almost
anything:)



--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 24
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 13:14:11 +1000
> Decking is the prime example, where you can make a cutting edge mainframe
> (chips and all) without any theoretical knowledge of computers at all.
> The same example applies to magic.

As such, we've also been using the rule that you can't optimise programs
above 1.5 times your Comp Theory skill. We haven't dealt with the
hardware side yet cause no-one's built a deck yet. Though my character,
Belladonna, is about to start. :)

> > > There is really very little a veteran character can not do if he sets his
> > > mind to it.
> > >
> > Assuming the GM lets them. My GM would make a player with a force 15
> > elemental role periodic control tests, due to the extreme power of the
> > elemental.
> >
> That's pretty nasty..... It's a bit like trashing someones brand-spanking
> new quickened Increase Reflexes spell.... Leaves a bit of a legacy.

*grin* Never. Part of the problem is that, to solve our GM burnout
problems (ie one of the two experienced SR GMs didn't want to GM much
and the other was burnt out and overworked), we're making EVERYONE in
our group have a go at GMing. Everyone's been playing for at least 18
months now, and it's worked - we now have people saying "But *I* want to
GM next week" instead of the old struggle to find someone who was
willing to.

This means, though, that there's not just one GM in charge of
everything. What goes around comes around - if the players feel that the
GM's been way too harsh, next week (when that GM's just a player again
until his or her next go), things could get nasty...

The way our group has wound up working is that the GM controls the plot,
storyline and NPCs for the session/adventure/campaign, and the rules
generally get GMed by consensus. :)

> > > Of course, he's VERY nice to his elementals, because most of them will go
> > > free if he takes a deadly wound... The last thing you need are a Force 7,
> > > two Force 8 and a Force 12 Free Spirit after your hide.
> > >
> > Ugly situation. THe whole group better hope he doesn't get shot. Who
> > knows what an elemental might due when it is freed.
>
> Yeah, I agree..... but who knows what the group would do to the GM if
> they all died from someone elses suddenly freed elemental. Ain't politics
> grand.... last thing anyone wants is another 'Gerald Incident'

More to the point, I'd like to see someone give Rex a Deadly wound. All
the rest of us (apart from Headkase) would be dead first.

> (In-group joke there, for Lady Jestyr and co.)

The Gerald Incident, for the rest of the list, was a nasty incident that
occured when everyone was tired and grumpy at about 2 am. The GM had us
meet an NPC that was being a right prick, and had a Weapon Focus 5
sword. The greedy prick of a P.A. in the party managed somehow to talk
us into attacking Gerald (the swordowner) and friends (gee we're easily
led!), and then was rather miffed when he got a serious wound... :)


Lady Jestyr

-----------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect in a world full of icebergs
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 25
From: Gweedo The Killer Pimp <yawas@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 23:19:42 EST
On Sun, 30 Mar 1997 14:08:49 EST L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM> writes:
>A mage purchases his hermetic library at whatever rating, then he owns
>a
>hermetic library of the appropriate skill and rating. They exist as
>books, as data stored on optical chips, and as data in some other form
>(I don't remember what off-hand). They can be purshased anywhere such
>things would be sold (most lore stores, some bookstores, etc. I would
>think). Presumably, there could also be one that exists on-line, in
>which you buy a subscription. Such a thing might have an unbelievable
>rating. And a mage can summon an elemental anywhere he has enough
>space to draw his circle (assuming he has appropriate materials).
--------------
Now, when a mage wants to conjure an elemental would he have to access
his library, before, after, or during the ritual of conjuring? Also,
what kind of conversations do most mages usually have with an elemental?


Now using Gweedo the Killer Pimp ver. 3.1 sporting such features as:
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and a gold tooth!
Message no. 26
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 15:38:09 +1000
> Now, when a mage wants to conjure an elemental would he have to access
> his library, before, after, or during the ritual of conjuring? Also,
> what kind of conversations do most mages usually have with an elemental?
>

Elementals have intelligence equal to their force, so if it's a high
force one, be damned repectful.
Message no. 27
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 02:20:39 EST
On Sun, 30 Mar 1997 23:19:42 EST Gweedo The Killer Pimp <yawas@****.COM>
writes:

>Now, when a mage wants to conjure an elemental would he have to access
>his library, before, after, or during the ritual of conjuring? Also,
>what kind of conversations do most mages usually have with an
>elemental?

I'm guessing that the mage doing the conjuring would need the library
either BEFORE or DURING the ritual, as if it is AFTER the elemental is
already summoned, then there really isn't any need for the library to
actaully SUMMON the elemental.....

As for most of my characters and conversations w/ elementals.... not a
whole lot, mostly orders .. but with the way that they are treated in
Burning Bright (he gives them names and talks to them), well I guess it
would depend on the owner.

~Tim
Message no. 28
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 18:50:14 +1000
> >Now, when a mage wants to conjure an elemental would he have to access
> >his library, before, after, or during the ritual of conjuring? Also,
> >what kind of conversations do most mages usually have with an
> >elemental?
>
> As for most of my characters and conversations w/ elementals.... not a
> whole lot, mostly orders .. but with the way that they are treated in
> Burning Bright (he gives them names and talks to them), well I guess it
> would depend on the owner.
>

In our campaign at the moment the elementals all have names, and some of
them have a bit of a personality (Brutus in particulartakes no shit from
anyone, even his summoner). I usually try and detail the nature spirits
with a form suitable to the location, too.

The Watchers are most fun, though;

Red Shirts (out of star trek)
Squibs
Hell Hounds made of shadows
Fuzzy balls of blue light
Shy mammalian creatures
Weenies in lab coats.
and more.
Message no. 29
From: Shawn Baumgartner <deosyne@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 01:42:29 -0800
>Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 09:31:18 +1000
>From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD"


>> ... In any case the mage needs a _conjuring
library_ and a hermetic circle
>> of correct kind, and the rating of both must be at
least as high as the
>> rating of the wished elemental. ...
>>
>
>Heh... I wish I'd known that when one of my players
conjured a force 15
>earth elemental.
>

FORCE 15?!?!!?!? Hmm... let's see. Mage spends 15
hours setting up the summoning, throws up his arms,
screams, "I Summon Thee!...SQUISH!!!" "And in a
related story, a massive Earth Elemental, conjured by
what experts believe to be one of the hundreds of
bodies pasted to the bottom of its foot, has
destroyed much of downtown Seattle. And in other
news..."

>Brutus (the elemental) is so much a part of the game
now that I wouldn't
>bother retrospectively enforcing the rules, though.
Besides, five force 3
>air elementals and he ceases to exist.

More fun: A Force 16 Air Elemental _under_control_ of
an opposing mage. :)

Shawn
Mun... No! I won't say it!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Message no. 30
From: Shawn Baumgartner <deosyne@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 01:56:43 -0800
>Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 09:32:50 +1000
>From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD"


>> A mage purchases his hermetic library at whatever
rating, then he owns a
>> hermetic library of the appropriate skill and
rating. They exist as
>> books, as data stored on optical chips, and as
data in some other form (I
>> don't remember what off-hand). They can be
purshased anywhere such things
>> would be sold (most lore stores, some bookstores,
etc. I would think).
>> Presumably, there could also be one that exists
on-line, in which you buy
>> a subscription. Such a thing might have an
unbelievable rating.

To get a relative view, I whipped through the
Internet looking for roughly equivalent info (as in
difficulty to obtain): Building a gun-found lots!
Building a silencer-ditto. Making explosives-bunch of
those, too. Making drugs-acetone; go figure. Building
a nuclear weapon-if you can get the fuel, they got
the plans. Hell, run free through the newsgroups;
drugs, pirate software, even kiddy porn; all free for
the taking.

>Yeah right.... Subscription libraries; Arm AND
train the masses.
>
Some assembly required; fetishes not included; your
mileage my vary.

>I guess it makes a good way of monitoring mages,
assuming you believe you
>can keep track of everybody.

What, did you think Windows was an operating system?
How else is Lord Gates gonna keep tabs on the
populace?

Shawn
Sorry, no witty saying. Still crackin' up over the
force 15 spirit.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Message no. 31
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 19:58:59 +1000
> >Heh... I wish I'd known that when one of my players
> conjured a force 15
> >earth elemental.
> >
>
> FORCE 15?!?!!?!? Hmm... let's see. Mage spends 15
> hours setting up the summoning, throws up his arms,
> screams, "I Summon Thee!...SQUISH!!!" "And in a
> related story, a massive Earth Elemental, conjured by
> what experts believe to be one of the hundreds of
> bodies pasted to the bottom of its foot, has
> destroyed much of downtown Seattle. And in other
> news..."
>
Yeah, for the average mage maybe..... Unfortunately this wasn't an
average mage. If you've read the rest of the thread you'll have seen his
Charisma stat

> More fun: A Force 16 Air Elemental _under_control_ of
> an opposing mage. :)
>

That would freak the shit out of everyone..... might just do it; There's
gotta be *someone* in the world better than Rex (can't you just tell by his
name? *grin*)

I'll call him Caesar!

> Shawn
> Mun... No! I won't say it!
>
Why not? He reads the list.

I'm just the GM... see what I have to deal with? Poor, bedraggled me!
*grin*
Message no. 32
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 20:07:19 +1000
> To get a relative view, I whipped through the
> Internet looking for roughly equivalent info (as in
> difficulty to obtain): Building a gun-found lots!
> Building a silencer-ditto. Making explosives-bunch of
> those, too. Making drugs-acetone; go figure. Building
> a nuclear weapon-if you can get the fuel, they got
> the plans. Hell, run free through the newsgroups;
> drugs, pirate software, even kiddy porn; all free for
> the taking.
>
*sigh* yeah, I know.... But in SR the matrix is more regulated, as with
our internet become as there is more interest in it.

> >I guess it makes a good way of monitoring mages,
> assuming you believe you
> >can keep track of everybody.
>
> What, did you think Windows was an operating system?
> How else is Lord Gates gonna keep tabs on the
> populace?
>
Why should he bother? We don't have to pay him taxes.

> Sorry, no witty saying. Still crackin' up over the
> force 15 spirit.
>
That's cool man; Someone's gotta.

Just think of it like an AD$D ring of three wishes, or like having a
direct line to God.
Message no. 33
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 12:46:06 +0100
MARTIN E. GOTTHARD said on 9:28/31 Mar 97...

> > For shadowrunners and others who might get in trouble with lots of people,
> > libraries on chip or CD are the way to go.
>
> Definite negative on the style points, though *grin*

We're not playing CP2020 here :)

> On the curiosity side, can anyone dredge up the legality codes for
> magical libraries? (I don't have the books immediately handy)

I don't think there are any. In fact the legality codes in Shadowtech skip
over magical items entirely, while the Lone Star books says you need to
register foci. If you're required to let Lone Star know, then there's an
"or else..." attached to it, which suggests there are laws against
carrying unlicensed foci around. Anyone know any details?

Anyway, back to libraries. I think anyone would find it hard to prohibit
them... Just look at how hard governments find it today to limit the flow
of information.
Also, to the uninitiated, a real magical library would look exactly the
same as a pile of books full of wannabe crap. One would be illegal, the
other wouldn't.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Gurth writes history.
"History."
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 34
From: Gweedo The Killer Pimp <yawas@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 12:28:46 EST
On Mon, 31 Mar 1997 02:20:39 EST Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM> writes:
>I'm guessing that the mage doing the conjuring would need the library
>either BEFORE or DURING the ritual, as if it is AFTER the elemental is
>already summoned, then there really isn't any need for the library to
>actaully SUMMON the elemental.....
>As for most of my characters and conversations w/ elementals.... not a
>whole lot, mostly orders .. but with the way that they are treated in
>Burning Bright (he gives them names and talks to them), well I guess
>it would depend on the owner.
-----------
Well I figured the after wouldn't work after I sent the letter. Have
characters actually held conversations with elementals, or spirits for
that matter, just because the rest of the team was out doing something
that didn't need the mage, or shaman?


Now using Gweedo the Killer Pimp ver. 3.1 sporting such features as:
A poleyester leisure suit, platform shoes, a pink cadillac, fuzzy dice,
and a gold tooth!
Message no. 35
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 13:09:17 EST
On Mon, 31 Mar 1997 13:03:05 +1000 Lady Jestyr
<jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU> writes:
>> Now here's a question: would you allow a magician to turn an elemental
>> into an ally spirit?
>
>I was just pondering the same question, and I think I would, on the
>grounds that it didn't upset game balance, and that the elemental had
>been bound and used a lot (and probably was decent force too) so that it
>had some sort of personality and had a link to its summoner.
>
>Lady Jestyr

So, what kind of bonuses would the spirit's summoner gain this way? Would
he gain the elemental services plus the ally services, etc?

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 36
From: Benjamin Pflugmann
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:55:27 +0100
> > A mage purchases his hermetic library at whatever rating, then he owns a
> > hermetic library of the appropriate skill and rating. They exist as
> > books, as data stored on optical chips, and as data in some other form (I
> > don't remember what off-hand). They can be purshased anywhere such things
> > would be sold (most lore stores, some bookstores, etc. I would think).
> > Presumably, there could also be one that exists on-line, in which you buy
> > a subscription. Such a thing might have an unbelievable rating. And a
> > mage can summon an elemental anywhere he has enough space to draw his
> > circle (assuming he has appropriate materials).
> >
>
> Yeah right.... Subscription libraries; Arm AND train the masses.

Hey! Where is the problem? :-) There is no problem today to get from a library the
information how to build a bomb, even a nuclear bomb. Is this arming the
masses? If yes, where are all that little killers? ;) (Ok, I know, that Uran
is missing...)

Do not forget, that there only a few magically active humans around.

Learning is not doing. And at least everything needed for non-aggressive
spells (healing, entertainment, protections and so on) should be easily
available.

> I guess it makes a good way of monitoring mages, assuming you believe you
> can keep track of everybody.

Yeah. This would be the way I would react on magic (if I would have to say
something in security).

Bye,

Benjamin.

PS: Sorry for my english, but I am trying to translate the german terms
"brute force", since I do not know the special words.

--
pfb08188@*****.physik.uni-regensburg.de
benjamin@*****.leibniz.in-passau.de
Message no. 37
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:22:38 +1000
> > > For shadowrunners and others who might get in trouble with lots of people,
> > > libraries on chip or CD are the way to go.
> >
> > Definite negative on the style points, though *grin*
>
> We're not playing CP2020 here :)
>
No, but still. Style IS everything.... sort of. *grin*

> > On the curiosity side, can anyone dredge up the legality codes for
> > magical libraries? (I don't have the books immediately handy)
>
> I don't think there are any. In fact the legality codes in Shadowtech skip
> over magical items entirely, while the Lone Star books says you need to
> register foci. If you're required to let Lone Star know, then there's an
> "or else..." attached to it, which suggests there are laws against
> carrying unlicensed foci around. Anyone know any details?
>
For the or else; How about bid bad nasty 'or else's'..... Carrying a big
active focus is as much an overt threat as carrying an assault rifle
around. It suggests a certain intention to do damage (and most magic can
be used to do damage in some way)
Message no. 38
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:26:06 +1000
> > Yeah right.... Subscription libraries; Arm AND train the masses.
>
> Hey! Where is the problem? :-) There is no problem today to get from a library the
> information how to build a bomb, even a nuclear bomb. Is this arming the
> masses? If yes, where are all that little killers? ;) (Ok, I know, that Uran
> is missing...)
>

Like I said before, you don't need plutonium to build a mage. With
other explosives, you need the right kind of chemicals to make them, and
I *know* that access to them is all regulated out their butts.

Sme thng wis most narcotics; Access to the raw materials is very
difficult..... hell, you have to sign a book to get ethanol in chem. labs
these days.
Message no. 39
From: Toaster <toaster@************.COM>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 21:14:51 -0800
> Now, when a mage wants to conjure an elemental would he have to access
> his library, before, after, or during the ritual of conjuring? Also,
> what kind of conversations do most mages usually have with an elemental?
>
> Now using Gweedo the Killer Pimp ver. 3.1 sporting such features as:
> A poleyester leisure suit, platform shoes, a pink cadillac, fuzzy dice,
> and a gold tooth!
well, he wouldn't need the library during the ritual. He needs to spend
lotsa time
beforehand memorizing the ritual and how he's going to do it, what he
needs to do, what
kind of shocks he should be prepared for, etc.
conversations with elementals...
most mages see elementals as tools.
mages create a host body for a spirit and then trap it inside until it
has
completed the tasks for which it was called.
the mage-elemental relationship is usually one of master to slave.
not saying mages are abusive, they simply wield complete power over the
elemental.
elementals generally don't like doing what they do (they'd rather be
sailing)
kind of a reluctant obedience thing
this is why it takes a complex action to call one from stand-by, whilst
a nature
spirit takes a simple action.
they're also more likely to go bonkers if they become free.
of note that most people don't use:
an astral spirit is not invisible to the physical world. a force 8 or
higher elemental
is immediately obvious to everyone around without the need for a
perception test.
not obvious as an elemental, of course, but a very noticable shimmering
in the air.
nature spirits are far more concealable.
anyway
cyberspunk

Visit the original ELF HATE page!
http://members.tripod.com/~glenn_royer
Message no. 40
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:39:58 GMT
Midn Daniel O Fredrikson writes
> Ok, I'm dumb, but where does it say that spell force is limited by magic
> theory?
>
According to GR2 you may only research spells with force rating to a
maximum of you rmagic theory.
The rule is in the general section near the end but you might have to
read hte book about 5 times to find it.

> > O.K., spirit combat. Elementals of opposing types, ie Earth and Air, or
> > Fire and Water, do not work of an opposed success test. Rather it's an
> > outright subtraction, with the smaller elemental being obliterated, and
> > the larger being permanently (I hope) reduced in force.
>
> I don't know what it says is the Grimoire, but in the main book the
> example they use is a water elemental vs a fire elemental, and they do use
> opposed successes in that example. That may have been changed in the
> Grimoire, but I don't know...
>
This comes from a rule in SR2 that says if you opposing elementals
meet you can resolve it quickly by deducting the force of the smaller
one from the larger. In practice however the results of using this
rule are wildly different than playing it out unless the forces are
nearly identical (when luck determines things).
two spirits of very different sizes ends in the small one getting
totalled for no scratches on the big one, two the same size (or so)
either is all one sided (if one gets lucky and they only use melee
combat ie no noxious breath / flame projection, though start with
one of those with big spirits and the target is toast in one shot!)
or both get badly trashed by wounds which the victor regenerates in
under 10 minutes.

> > There is really very little a veteran character can not do if he sets his
> > mind to it.
> >
Very, very little! assuming you don't watch out some plain riduculous
things can be done, though most characters would find it difficult /
to expensive. Also really neat tricks require the player work out how
to do them first.

> > BTW; Another point on spirit combat. If you're desperate, conjure your
> > full complement of watchers and send them in with the elementals....
> > Friends In Melee works even in astral. I've seen six watchers tear a
> > force five elemental to bits with no outside help.
>
> Cool idea. I have always liked watchers personally...
>
Works wonders :), as does the 'lots of them on alarm, see anything
go get help!' sure a mage crusing over the perimeter can slpatter
them easy at several an action, but it only takes one action by one
watcher and time to see the cavalry :)

Mark
Message no. 41
From: mike.paff@*****.COM
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 08:49:21 -0800
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
> Midn Daniel O Fredrikson writes
> > Ok, I'm dumb, but where does it say that spell force is limited by magic
> > theory?
> >
> According to GR2 you may only research spells with force rating to a
> maximum of your magic theory.
> The rule is in the general section near the end but you might have to
> read the book about 5 times to find it.
>
Is this limit based on the actual magic theory rating, or on the effective
rating? In the spell design section of GR2, it states that magic theory can
effectively be increased by using a medicine lodge/library with a rating higher
than the magic theory rating, at the expense of extra time to design the spell.

I can see either answer being valid. I'd just like to know what other
GM's rulings are on the subject.

Mike
Message no. 42
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:23:13 -0500
>It's probably a bit like detailed info on how to build a working atomic
>bomb.... but with spells you don't need raw materials like plutonium.
>Combat spells aren't the only dangerous magic. Illusions, detection
>spells and health spells can all have potential legal problems accosiated
>in their use.
>
>In any case, I'd like to see public spell libraries banned in my game.
>In your game it may be different.

The tricky thing here is that magic isn't like math....where you can declare
what is and what isn't......If you ban every remotely spiritual, new age,
religious, or otherwise non-encyclopedia text, you can do it. If you don't,
SOMEONE is going to be able to get info. Add to this that any enforcement
is going to be reletevly recent, and such, and you get a good argument for
the possibility of LOW level libraries to exist at the public level.

Of course, most runners aren;t going to care that the public library has a
Rating 2 Mag. Theory lib, esp since the GM declared that any searches triple
the base time due to misinformation and lack of topical organization, but it
does give LOTS of leads for the GM.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 43
From: Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 14:35:46 -0800
>>In any case, I'd like to see public spell libraries banned in my game.
>>In your game it may be different.

>The tricky thing here is that magic isn't like math....where you can declare
>what is and what isn't......If you ban every remotely spiritual, new age,
>religious, or otherwise non-encyclopedia text, you can do it. If you don't,
>SOMEONE is going to be able to get info. Add to this that any enforcement
>is going to be reletevly recent, and such, and you get a good argument for
>the possibility of LOW level libraries to exist at the public level.

There this great big thing I've been building over the last year. It's
called the "What I'll do differently with my next SR campaign." And
it's a /beast/ - it's huge.

One of the entries on that great list involves starting spells for
characters. There is going to be a big list of spells that they
simply CANNOT have at the beginning of the campaign. If they want to
bust ass (and, being PC's, I'm sure that they will) and get after
potential sources of "frowned-upon" magic (i.e. damage level S or D
spells, all of the mind control spells, etc.), then that's great.
But they won't start with them. And I'll make them write a character
concept that fully explains where and how they learned the spells that
I /do/ allow them to start with.

Let's face, even in 2058, you can't just enroll in a class at city
university and learn "turn to goo" or "hellblast" or whatever. Want
to heal people, great! Want to blow people up? Not great! :-)

As a side-note and digression, I've long since realized that most of
the game balance problems that certain campaigns and/or game systems
have could be eradicated by severely restricting what starting characters
have to begin with - NO MATTER WHAT THE FRAGGIN RULEBOOK SEZ. If starting
characters with firearms skills of 6 make everyone an expert out of the
box, don't let anyone start with firearms higher than 3 or 4. If you make
them spend extensive game time just getting to those levels that starting
characters in SR typically get, you might find a lot of these problems
disappear. After all, it's ok if a character, after many months of gameplay,
finally develops a skill of 6 in firearms (or whatever). But out of the box?
You never get to go thru those "formative" years when you're not the lead
guy in a John Woo movie... :-)

- Brett
Message no. 44
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:42:32 -0500
>There this great big thing I've been building over the last year. It's
>called the "What I'll do differently with my next SR campaign." And
>it's a /beast/ - it's huge.
>
>One of the entries on that great list involves starting spells for
>characters. There is going to be a big list of spells that they
>simply CANNOT have at the beginning of the campaign. If they want to
>bust ass (and, being PC's, I'm sure that they will) and get after
>potential sources of "frowned-upon" magic (i.e. damage level S or D
>spells, all of the mind control spells, etc.), then that's great.
>But they won't start with them. And I'll make them write a character
>concept that fully explains where and how they learned the spells that
>I /do/ allow them to start with.

I'd really love to see this list....I have a lot I could learn (don't we
all?) Is it in electronic format?

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 45
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 00:29:24 EST
On Sun, 30 Mar 1997 23:19:42 EST Gweedo The Killer Pimp <yawas@****.COM>
writes:
>Now, when a mage wants to conjure an elemental would he have to access
>his library, before, after, or during the ritual of conjuring? Also,
>what kind of conversations do most mages usually have with an
>elemental?

He would need access to the appropriate library (or libraries) during the
rituals.

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 46
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 00:29:24 EST
On Mon, 31 Mar 1997 18:50:14 +1000 "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD"
<s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU> writes:
<snip>
>
>The Watchers are most fun, though;

So I've heard:)


>
> Red Shirts (out of star trek)

Hmm...missed that one...


> Squibs

Is this the ball of yarn with yellow sneakers? Or is this something else?



> Hell Hounds made of shadows

Sounds like a Darkhound (from Wheel of Time)


> Fuzzy balls of blue light

Like the...thingies <sigh> that are in PAoE?


> Shy mammalian creatures
> Weenies in lab coats.
> and more.
>

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 47
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 17:45:45 +1000
> >
> > Red Shirts (out of star trek)
>
> Hmm...missed that one...
>
It's a reference to the red-shirted extra crew members that beam down
with Kirk and Spock (etc.) in the old series; They are always the first
to get shot, stabbed or eaten by the mysterious creature of the week.

Thus, in our slang, any extra person or entity that is there only as a
'damage soak' is a Red Shirt

> > Squibs
>
> Is this the ball of yarn with yellow sneakers? Or is this something else?
>
Yup.... Hamish liked them so much we used them.
Message no. 48
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 04:56:41 EDT
On Sun, 6 Apr 1997 17:45:45 +1000 "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" writes:
>> >
>> > Red Shirts (out of star trek)
>>
>> Hmm...missed that one...
>>
>It's a reference to the red-shirted extra crew members that beam down
>with Kirk and Spock (etc.) in the old series; They are always the first
>to get shot, stabbed or eaten by the mysterious creature of the week.
>
>Thus, in our slang, any extra person or entity that is there only as a
>'damage soak' is a Red Shirt

A.K.A "Sacrificial Ensign".

(that was one of our tongue-in-cheek Rifts spells, "Summon Sacrificial
Ensign"... it would conjure some non-descript guy in a red uniform to
draw fire)

~Tim
Message no. 49
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 11:56:29 +0100
MARTIN E. GOTTHARD said on 17:45/ 6 Apr 97...

> It's a reference to the red-shirted extra crew members that beam down
> with Kirk and Spock (etc.) in the old series; They are always the first
> to get shot, stabbed or eaten by the mysterious creature of the week.
>
> Thus, in our slang, any extra person or entity that is there only as a
> 'damage soak' is a Red Shirt

In the later ST shows they've been replaced by the people who only nod
when spoken to by the show's stars :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
In my mind all the time.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 50
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 21:34:38 EDT
On Sun, 6 Apr 1997 17:45:45 +1000 "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD"
<s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU> writes:
>> >
>> > Red Shirts (out of star trek)
>>
>> Hmm...missed that one...
>>
>It's a reference to the red-shirted extra crew members that beam down
>with Kirk and Spock (etc.) in the old series; They are always the
>first
>to get shot, stabbed or eaten by the mysterious creature of the week.
>
>Thus, in our slang, any extra person or entity that is there only as a
>'damage soak' is a Red Shirt
>

Ahhh...



>> > Squibs
>>
>> Is this the ball of yarn with yellow sneakers? Or is this something
>else?
>>
>Yup.... Hamish liked them so much we used them.
>
Cool. I haven't been able to use them, but I thought it sounded really
cool:)

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 51
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Hermetic Libraries
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:39:32 -0700
> > > Squibs
> >
> > Is this the ball of yarn with yellow sneakers? Or is this something
else?
> >
> Yup.... Hamish liked them so much we used them.

It does me proud to see that Squib as moved on to new pastures :)

Don't forget to count the bonus fricks.

-Caric

"One cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war."
-Albert Einstein

Further Reading

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