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Message no. 1
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Hiding from astral creature, perception, ect...
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 00:08:15 -0500
One of the books said that every creature has an aura and it can't be
hidden. (I think) So my question is "Is it possible for a mage who is
astrally percieving to always see through invisibility spells, or could an
initiate, masking his aura in conjection with masking an sustained
invisibility spell, to become truely invisible?"
Message no. 2
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hiding from astral creature, perception, ect...
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:48:44 -0800
On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Midn Daniel O Fredrikson wrote:

> One of the books said that every creature has an aura and it can't be
> hidden. (I think) So my question is "Is it possible for a mage who is
> astrally percieving to always see through invisibility spells, or could an
> initiate, masking his aura in conjection with masking an sustained
> invisibility spell, to become truely invisible?"
>

According to SRII, on the astral plane the true aura is always visible,
which I'd take to mean that you'd see the aura of some guy with an
invisibility spell up if you looked at him. Don't know about the second
part...

~Tim
Message no. 3
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hiding from astral creature, perception, ect...
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 06:50:11 -0500
On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Midn Daniel O Fredrikson wrote:

> One of the books said that every creature has an aura and it can't be
> hidden. (I think) So my question is "Is it possible for a mage who is
> astrally percieving to always see through invisibility spells, or could an
> initiate, masking his aura in conjection with masking an sustained
> invisibility spell, to become truely invisible?"


SRII page 145. Right column, last para:

"Astral perception allows the mage to view the aura of any living or
magical thing. ... A character under a disguising spell would also
show his or her true form. The spell's aura (visible independently or
surrounding the thing it affects) identifiies it as being of sorcery. ..."

This talks about a physical mage who Astrally Perceives.
Extend the argument naturally to a mage who is Astrally Projecting.


Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

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Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Hiding from astral creature, perception, ect...
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:13:14 +0100
Midn Daniel O Fredrikson said on 0:08/25 Nov 96...

> One of the books said that every creature has an aura and it can't be
> hidden. (I think) So my question is "Is it possible for a mage who is
> astrally percieving to always see through invisibility spells, or could an
> initiate, masking his aura in conjection with masking an sustained
> invisibility spell, to become truely invisible?"

Yes and no, in that order. Illusion spells only wok on the physical plane,
anyone trying to use astral perception on them will see they are spells
and nothing more (a side-effect of this is that you can't use illusion
spells to create fake astral "images"). I'm not 100% sure of the second
question, but until I read an official/semi-official ruling on it, I say
an initiate can't completely hide. The initiate's aura may be masked to
resemble a mundane for example, but it will still be perceivable to anyone
looking into the astral plane.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You can't clean the toilet, Neil! It'll lose all its character!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 5
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Hiding from astral creature, perception, ect...
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:46:33 +0000
|
|One of the books said that every creature has an aura and it can't be
|hidden. (I think) So my question is "Is it possible for a mage who is
|astrally percieving to always see through invisibility spells, or could an
|initiate, masking his aura in conjection with masking an sustained
|invisibility spell, to become truely invisible?"
|

Masking doesn't make the mages aura invisible, it just allows him to hide
his magical ability by appearing less magical or mundane....

You can *always* see invisible people on the astral plane.....
(As long as they're no hiding behind a wall or something, obviously.)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 6
From: Steffen Lassahn <sl@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Hiding from astral creature, perception, ect...
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:53:08 GMT
On Mon, 25 Nov 1996 06:48:44 GMT, Tim Cooper
<tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU> wrote:

>On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Midn Daniel O Fredrikson wrote:
>
>> One of the books said that every creature has an aura and it can't be
>> hidden. (I think) So my question is "Is it possible for a mage who is
>> astrally percieving to always see through invisibility spells, or could an
>> initiate, masking his aura in conjection with masking an sustained
>> invisibility spell, to become truely invisible?"

Masking an aura doesn't mean that the aura disappears, it only means
that you can change your aura and that you can mask the fact that you
are a mage and that you are running around with a lot of foci. So
there is no astral invisibility.

Steffen
Message no. 7
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Hiding from astral creature, perception, ect...
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:19:09 +0000
On 24 Nov 96 at 22:48, Tim Cooper wrote:

> On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Midn Daniel O Fredrikson wrote:
>
> > One of the books said that every creature has an aura and it can't be
> > hidden. (I think) So my question is "Is it possible for a mage who is
> > astrally percieving to always see through invisibility spells, or could an
> > initiate, masking his aura in conjection with masking an sustained
> > invisibility spell, to become truely invisible?"

> According to SRII, on the astral plane the true aura is always visible,
> which I'd take to mean that you'd see the aura of some guy with an
> invisibility spell up if you looked at him. Don't know about the second
> part...
Anyone who's astrally perceiving can see any "invisible" character (note: a
good perception test will do the trick, too!). Masking will only alter the
appearance of an aura, but can't hide it.

Note that anyone doing something "mundane" while perceiving suffers a +2 TN.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |'The rich control |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| The Government, |
| \___ __/ | | The Media, |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | And the Law!' |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | - Queensryche |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 8
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Hiding from astral creature, perception, ect...
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:19:09 +0000
On 25 Nov 96 at 6:50, Brian W Allison wrote:
[snip]
> This talks about a physical mage who Astrally Perceives.
[snip]
I do doubt the main book mentions "physical mages". See Awakenings, somewhere
p. 119 and around p. 50 (I think, don't have it here right now)
Message no. 9
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hiding from astral creature, perception, ect...
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:19:39 -0500
On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> On 25 Nov 96 at 6:50, Brian W Allison wrote:
> [snip]
> > This talks about a physical mage who Astrally Perceives.
> [snip]
> I do doubt the main book mentions "physical mages". See Awakenings,
somewhere
> p. 119 and around p. 50 (I think, don't have it here right now)


Perhaps I should have said:

This talks about a physically present mage who Astrally Perceives.



My apologies for your mis-interpretation. I forget that not everyoen
speaks my perculiar version of English. :)




Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 10
From: David Fallon <dfallon@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hiding from astral creature, perception, ect...
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:16:04 -0800
> Midn Daniel O Fredrikson said on 0:08/25 Nov 96...
>
> > One of the books said that every creature has an aura and it can't be
> > hidden. (I think) So my question is "Is it possible for a mage who is
> > astrally percieving to always see through invisibility spells, or could
an
> > initiate, masking his aura in conjection with masking an sustained
> > invisibility spell, to become truely invisible?"
>
> Yes and no, in that order. Illusion spells only wok on the physical plane,
> anyone trying to use astral perception on them will see they are spells
> and nothing more (a side-effect of this is that you can't use illusion
> spells to create fake astral "images"). I'm not 100% sure of the second
> question, but until I read an official/semi-official ruling on it, I say
> an initiate can't completely hide. The initiate's aura may be masked to
> resemble a mundane for example, but it will still be perceivable to anyone
> looking into the astral plane.
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

<grin> Yay, my first email on the list...

I would imagine that it would be possible for a sufficiently good mage to
alter his Aura so much that it looks exactly like what he's standing
on/in/against. And if that was possible, then a mage of even more skill
could be _constantly_ altering his aura to match his surroundings. You're
not making your aura disappear, the mage is just making it look like
nothing's there by blending in. Like a chameleon. A normal invisiblility
spell, obviously, wouldn't do the trick.

I'd imagine that to do such a thing, the mage would have to be really
powerful. Dragon/Immortal elf type magic... Especially for the "moving"
version. Perhaps an initiate power like quickening/centering/etc., but it's
only available to initiates of say 10th rank or so? If you really want to
create rules for it, of course....

David Fallon
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Hiding from astral creature, perception, ect...
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:25:24 +0100
David Fallon said on 15:16/25 Nov 96...

> <grin> Yay, my first email on the list...

Welcome :)

> I would imagine that it would be possible for a sufficiently good mage to
> alter his Aura so much that it looks exactly like what he's standing
> on/in/against. And if that was possible, then a mage of even more skill
> could be _constantly_ altering his aura to match his surroundings. You're
> not making your aura disappear, the mage is just making it look like
> nothing's there by blending in. Like a chameleon. A normal invisiblility
> spell, obviously, wouldn't do the trick.

But would it work from all directions? It's not too hard to place someone
in front of a wall and paint him/her to resemble that wall, but as soon as
the observer starts moving, the person will stand out. I imagine the same
thing would happen to an initiate doing this trick with masking on the
astral plane...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Silent again
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 12
From: David Fallon <dfallon@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hiding from astral creature, perception, ect...
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:47:37 -0800
> David Fallon said on 15:16/25 Nov 96...
>
> > <grin> Yay, my first email on the list...
>
> Welcome :)
>
> > I would imagine that it would be possible for a sufficiently good mage
to
> > alter his Aura so much that it looks exactly like what he's standing
> > on/in/against. And if that was possible, then a mage of even more skill
> > could be _constantly_ altering his aura to match his surroundings.
You're
> > not making your aura disappear, the mage is just making it look like
> > nothing's there by blending in. Like a chameleon. A normal invisiblility
> > spell, obviously, wouldn't do the trick.
>
> But would it work from all directions? It's not too hard to place someone
> in front of a wall and paint him/her to resemble that wall, but as soon as
> the observer starts moving, the person will stand out. I imagine the same
> thing would happen to an initiate doing this trick with masking on the
> astral plane...
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

That's why I said it would be really hard to do.... In my mind, at least, if
a mage is capable of masking themselves on the astral plane so as to be
indistinguishable for his/her surroundings, then any mage of PC level isn't
going to have a chance of seeing them. What we're talking about isn't going
to be a PC level power, except in rare, GM-approved circumstances. I could
see letting one of my characters be able to do this, but only at the
sacrifice of most of the rest of his magical powers.

On another note, does anyone know if any spells change people's auras? Like
shapechange?

David Fallon
Message no. 13
From: Turgul <turgul@**.COM>
Subject: Re: Hiding from astral creature, perception, ect...
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:07:54 -0600
>
> That's why I said it would be really hard to do.... In my mind, at least, if
> a mage is capable of masking themselves on the astral plane so as to be
> indistinguishable for his/her surroundings, then any mage of PC level isn't
> going to have a chance of seeing them. What we're talking about isn't going
> to be a PC level power, except in rare, GM-approved circumstances. I could
> see letting one of my characters be able to do this, but only at the
> sacrifice of most of the rest of his magical powers.
>
> David Fallon

Doesn't the Grimmy say that you can mask you aura to appear to be a
mundane, magically active, or as yourself? That dos not seem to say you
can make your aura disappear?

Mike
Message no. 14
From: David Fallon <dfallon@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hiding from astral creature, perception, ect...
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 23:35:41 -0800
> >
> > That's why I said it would be really hard to do.... In my mind, at
least, if
> > a mage is capable of masking themselves on the astral plane so as to be
> > indistinguishable for his/her surroundings, then any mage of PC level
isn't
> > going to have a chance of seeing them. What we're talking about isn't
going
> > to be a PC level power, except in rare, GM-approved circumstances. I
could
> > see letting one of my characters be able to do this, but only at the
> > sacrifice of most of the rest of his magical powers.
> >
> > David Fallon
>
> Doesn't the Grimmy say that you can mask you aura to appear to be a
> mundane, magically active, or as yourself? That dos not seem to say you
> can make your aura disappear?
>
> Mike

Yup. Keep in mind that what I'm talking about isn't a PC level power, but
simply a natural (<Grin> in my mind, of course) extension of the current
rules. To take you down the same path that my mind took, if you can change
your aura from one thing to another, although admittedly it's a very simple
change, if sufficently good, you can change it to say, the aura of a tree,
or something. That's what I would call "level 1" invisibility in astral
space. It's not _really_ difficult, and a.... 10th grade initiate could do
it? The drawbacks of "level 1" are that you can't move anywhere. "level
2"
is where you're sufficiently good that you can _constantly_ change your aura
to look like your surroundings. You blend into the astral plane, if you
will. Like modern day camouflage. This would be significanly harder. On the
order of Har'leaquin, or maybe other immortal elf level mages. I'm not
talking about making your aura disappear, just making it look like something
it's not. Hmm... The more that I think about it, the easier it seems to do
"level 1" invisibility. I might let a PC do that, if he spent enough karma
initiating and working on an astral stealth skill. They'd have to be around
5th grade, though.

David Fallon
Message no. 15
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Hiding from astral creature, perception, ect...
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:43:55 GMT
David Fallon writes

> > > to be a PC level power, except in rare, GM-approved circumstances. I
> could
> > > see letting one of my characters be able to do this, but only at the
> > > sacrifice of most of the rest of his magical powers.
> > >
> > > David Fallon
> >
> > Doesn't the Grimmy say that you can mask you aura to appear to be a
> > mundane, magically active, or as yourself? That dos not seem to say you
> > can make your aura disappear?
> >
> > Mike
>
> Yup. Keep in mind that what I'm talking about isn't a PC level power,
I'm not at all keen on 'NPC's can do that - PC's cannot' rules.
FASA cannot be blamed for the few rules on blood magic in the books
which say that, the books are in print in the real world where even
'being seen' to encourage players (even indirectly) to have
characters with such abilities is a bad idea.

However that doesn't stop there being things about that the PC's have
basically no hope of acquiring, just make sure there is a darn good
reason why the NPC powerful enough to do 'it' is about (though the
players may never find out said reason) and is not just tooled to be
good enough to use 'x' but weak elsewhere just so they can defeat /
run away from 'z'.

I have one or two NPC's that are capable of things no PC has any real
hope of copying, first off they have to guess from too few hints
exactly what it is the NPC is doing so they can actually ask for the
right ability :)

> but
> simply a natural (<Grin> in my mind, of course) extension of the current
> rules. To take you down the same path that my mind took, if you can change
> your aura from one thing to another, although admittedly it's a very simple
> change, if sufficently good, you can change it to say, the aura of a tree,
> or something.
Fooling the human eye like this isn't easy, why militaries spend lots
of money on camoflague.

> That's what I would call "level 1" invisibility in astral
> space. It's not _really_ difficult, and a.... 10th grade initiate could do
> it? The drawbacks of "level 1" are that you can't move anywhere.
"level 2"
> is where you're sufficiently good that you can _constantly_ change your aura
> to look like your surroundings. You blend into the astral plane, if you
> will. Like modern day camouflage.
The problem is the basic intensity difference between a living aura
and say a concreate wall. big problem.

> This would be significanly harder. On the
> order of Har'leaquin, or maybe other immortal elf level mages.
With ED level magic a few more things seem possible, but some of that
could be the 'spell defense' attribute which SR does not have, making
at least some things incompatible with SR.

> I'm not
> talking about making your aura disappear, just making it look like something
> it's not. Hmm... The more that I think about it, the easier it seems to do
> "level 1" invisibility. I might let a PC do that, if he spent enough karma
> initiating and working on an astral stealth skill. They'd have to be around
> 5th grade, though.
>
The best bet is hide amongst living things, if you are quite well
hidden vs normal sight behind vegitation then yes you could hide vs
astral, if anything more easily.
An 'astral stealth' skill is fair enough (training on how to hide
from astral observation) but changing your aura to help, well you
won't do all the job but i suppose you could say a highish grade
initiate can do enough of the job to haelp out their stealth skill
(total on the spot , say add grade to target number to spot?)

> David Fallon
>

Mark

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