Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Ralph and Ivy Ryan <sgmpaws@*******.COM>
Subject: Hi Everyone!! Answers to the questions
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:48:44 -0500
Re: Gurth's comment, yes my idea of SRII is that simply stated. Ok, 3 1/2
years, yeah, I moved out here to Ohio in 94, and it's taken me this long to
find the SR list again. Glad I'm back tho.

How to make your PCs use (burn) Karma Pool. Read the rulebook. It states
that the pool will refresh once the PCs get a chance to rest and relax.
Where are they going to do that on a run??? They do that at home once the
run is over of course.

Karma awards: To parphrase the book; take 1/10th of the award and round it
up and add it to karma pool, the other 9/10th is rounded up and put into
good karma. Also, karma is only awarded after the complete adventure is
over, not after every session.

Challanging the PCs? Easy! Send them to rescue a kidnapped scientist who
is being held in Jamaica by a squad working for Ares. The karma burning
started in Seattle and they didn't refresh their karma pool till the whole
thing was over. Thats why the huge karma pools. Of course, begining PCs
get into begining things. Sprawl Sites is full of ideas for begining
characters.

Last time I played I had a blast running a new (1 karma pool) street razor
delivering a box from the Reds to Council Isle. Disguise, stealth and
subterfuge got me through without using my karma point. 3 1/2 hours of
playing without a cap being busted or getting Lone Star upset.

Right now the oldest PCs are looking into Dunklezahn's death. The next
oldest PCs are dealing with the start of the mob/yak wars in Seattle. The
ones looking into Dunk's death haven't refreshed their karma pools for 2
sessions now, and probably won't for another three. I mean, their home is
in Tarislar and they're in DC. The younger group went home to Tarislar at
close of play tonight so they will start tomorrow with full karma pools.

And no, Dunk wasn't president in my world, he was there visiting Pres. KH
when he was "killed".

Realism: Yes. This is one of very few games in which a character can die
in one shot. Also the only game in which experience really makes a
difference in the karma pool and the way it works.

Re: Shapechangers? Still haven't seen anyone who has an animal's mindset.
Striper ain't what it'd be like either.

Vampires: The game rules state that Vamps have to eat essense. The player
couldn't handle that, she wanted to be a "good gal" and live on blood alone
(Like in Vamps the Masqurade) and I didn't let her. So the vampire
experiment ended.

Spirits at Force 10+? Seems crazy to me. My players tend to summon at
force 5 or so. Who needs a Great Spirit anyway? Same as with large
enchantments or more magic than the PC can shield. Spell locks, (initiate
shielded) are common but I like the addiction rule (Wherever it is...) and
my players know better than to advertise.

Anyhoo, I dig the game.

Ivy K.
Message no. 2
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Hi Everyone!! Answers to the questions
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 07:48:09 EST
In a message dated 97-12-22 19:49:09 EST, sgmpaws@*******.COM writes:

> And no, Dunk wasn't president in my world, he was there visiting Pres. KH
> when he was "killed".

ME?!?!? President?!?!?!? "K"eith "H"enry....yep, that's me...and had
a great
dragon for a buddy....sigh, the good 'ol days...

> Realism: Yes. This is one of very few games in which a character can die
> in one shot. Also the only game in which experience really makes a
> difference in the karma pool and the way it works.

It can happen in game, it's a matter of playing style. Game Mechanics are
just there to keep things working in a given directly (usually).

> Re: Shapechangers? Still haven't seen anyone who has an animal's mindset.
> Striper ain't what it'd be like either.

And -you- probably won't either. Seeing as how you probably consider yourself
well above the animal mentality and have no point of reference in which to
speak of.

> Vampires: The game rules state that Vamps have to eat essense. The player
> couldn't handle that, she wanted to be a "good gal" and live on blood
alone
> (Like in Vamps the Masqurade) and I didn't let her. So the vampire
> experiment ended.

Sad, experiments always have their place.

> Spirits at Force 10+? Seems crazy to me. My players tend to summon at
> force 5 or so. Who needs a Great Spirit anyway? Same as with large
> enchantments or more magic than the PC can shield. Spell locks, (initiate
> shielded) are common but I like the addiction rule (Wherever it is...) and
> my players know better than to advertise.

The rule for addiction is in Awakenings...and with Karma Pools as high as you
mentioned (which I haven't seen in a LONG time)....then the character's
haven't been given a chance probably to really get rid of it all...

> Anyhoo, I dig the game.
> Ivy K.

Wondeful, now go dig a karmic hole so the rest of us can watch and
learn....(assensing the whole way of course ;)

-K
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Hi Everyone!! Answers to the questions
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:11:34 +0100
Ralph and Ivy Ryan said on 19:48/22 Dec 97...

> How to make your PCs use (burn) Karma Pool. Read the rulebook. It states
> that the pool will refresh once the PCs get a chance to rest and relax.
> Where are they going to do that on a run??? They do that at home once the
> run is over of course.

It depends on how you interpret "catching your breath" -- I see it as
whenever they have the time to think about things for more than a few
minutes, for example. That means KP refreshes quite often in my campaign.

> Karma awards: To parphrase the book; take 1/10th of the award and round it
> up and add it to karma pool, the other 9/10th is rounded up and put into
> good karma. Also, karma is only awarded after the complete adventure is
> over, not after every session.

Maybe you need to explain this further. As I understand it, when you award
PCs 5 Karma, it's 1 pool (KP) and 4 Good Karma (GK); next adventure they
get 5 Karma again, which once more becomes 1 KP and 1 GK. The result is a
PC with 2 KP and 8 GK earned; OTOH you could make the KP equal to 1/10th
of the _total_ Karma earned, and GK the rest. That way (which I think is
what FASA intended, but put into words in a rather poor way), the same
char would have a 1 KP and 9 GK.

> Realism: Yes. This is one of very few games in which a character can die
> in one shot.

Too bad you didn't re-join the list a week earlier, we had a big thread
about that very recently. Oh, and have you ever tried Phoenix Command?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Frankly my damn, I don't give a dear.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 4
From: Ralph and Ivy Ryan <sgmpaws@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Hi Everyone!! Answers to the questions
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:20:28 -0500
----------
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Date: Tuesday, December 23, 1997 2:11 PM
>
> Ralph and Ivy Ryan said on 19:48/22 Dec 97...
>
> > How to make your PCs use (burn) Karma Pool. Read the rulebook. It
states
> > that the pool will refresh once the PCs get a chance to rest and relax.
> > Where are they going to do that on a run??? They do that at home once
the
> > run is over of course.
>
> It depends on how you interpret "catching your breath" -- I see it as
> whenever they have the time to think about things for more than a few
> minutes, for example. That means KP refreshes quite often in my campaign.

That is the sure way to karma abuse from my POV. If the characters are
jandering around town, sure. But on a run they won't catch their breath
till it's over and the nuyens in their hands and their in their squat.
They are never able to "catch their breath" in "Injun Country". Ask a
combat vet about patrols...

> > Karma awards: To parphrase the book; take 1/10th of the award and
round it
> > up and add it to karma pool, the other 9/10th is rounded up and put
into
> > good karma. Also, karma is only awarded after the complete adventure
is
> > over, not after every session.
>
> Maybe you need to explain this further. As I understand it, when you
award
> PCs 5 Karma, it's 1 pool (KP) and 4 Good Karma (GK); next adventure they
> get 5 Karma again, which once more becomes 1 KP and 1 GK. The result is a
> PC with 2 KP and 8 GK earned; OTOH you could make the KP equal to 1/10th
> of the _total_ Karma earned, and GK the rest. That way (which I think is
> what FASA intended, but put into words in a rather poor way), the same
> char would have a 1 KP and 9 GK.

Actually the character *should* have 2 Karma Pool and 8 Good Karma. That
was what the guys who wrote the game intended from the start. That is what
they told me, and they sure had no reason to sell me a story.

> > Realism: Yes. This is one of very few games in which a character can
die
> > in one shot.
>
> Too bad you didn't re-join the list a week earlier, we had a big thread
> about that very recently. Oh, and have you ever tried Phoenix Command?

Actually, dying from one shot does depend on my not using the ruling, put
in for the kiddies, that a single wound cannot go past Deadly. I didn't
even know that caveat was in the book till a nice swiss lad pointed it out
to me in 94. I still don't use it.

Ivy K.
Message no. 5
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Hi Everyone!! Answers to the questions
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:06:45 -0500
On Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:20:28 -0500 Ralph and Ivy Ryan
<sgmpaws@*******.COM> writes:

<<That is the sure way to karma abuse from my POV. If the characters are
jandering around town, sure. But on a run they won't catch their breath
till it's over and the nuyens in their hands and their in their squat.
They are never able to "catch their breath" in "Injun Country". Ask a
combat vet about patrols...>>


<<Actually the character *should* have 2 Karma Pool and 8 Good Karma.
That was what the guys who wrote the game intended from the start. That
is what they told me, and they sure had no reason to sell me a story.>>


<runs around screaming, pulling hair out and banging head against the
wall repeatedly>
AAAAAAUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
*wham!*
*wham!*
*wham!*
(Frustrated I am. Understand I do not.)

Yes, in *your* game, that would be the quick road to the abuse of the
karma pool. In any other game that I know of, that would be a fairly
judicial interpretation of the rules concerning its use. And DLoH rulings
have been recognized (around here, anyway) as still not being totally
canon: They're "more canon" than Joe Shmoe's house rules, but at best
they are still optional.


*sigh* Listen, I don't mind if you interpret the rules differently than I
do. However, I do not appreciate being told that I'm wrong, simply
because you don't agree with me. When you become omniscient, then you can
tell me that I am wrong on something that is open to interpretation. When
you know the mind of God, then you have the right to tell me if I'm right
or wrong. Until then: GIVE IT A FRIGGIN' REST!

--
John Pederson Canthros, the slightly-peeved shapeshifter-mage
<<-------------------------------------------------------------->>
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
<<-------------------------------------------------------------->>
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 6
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Hi Everyone!! Answers to the questions
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:40:52 -0500
At 09:20 PM 12/23/97 -0500, Ralph and Ivy Ryan wrote these timeless words:

>> It depends on how you interpret "catching your breath" -- I see it as
>> whenever they have the time to think about things for more than a few
>> minutes, for example. That means KP refreshes quite often in my campaign.
>
>That is the sure way to karma abuse from my POV. If the characters are
>jandering around town, sure. But on a run they won't catch their breath
>till it's over and the nuyens in their hands and their in their squat.
>They are never able to "catch their breath" in "Injun Country".
Ask a
>combat vet about patrols...
>
How, pray tell, do you igure... Since during a game it will refresh, at
most (and this is being generous) 10 times, most normal characters created
under the actual SR rules, STILL won;t have half the Karma Pool through the
adventure that you do!!! You're talking 4-fragging-hundred-plus! For most
people, 15 is a lot!

Geez, and you call others munchkins because they adjsut rules to suit their
campign... that's called being a good GM and taking into account your
group and it's needs, as well as accepting and fixing the weak points of a
system.

Grow up.

>Actually the character *should* have 2 Karma Pool and 8 Good Karma. That
>was what the guys who wrote the game intended from the start. That is what
>they told me, and they sure had no reason to sell me a story.
>
This was a point of slight misinterpretation by some people (like yourself,
it seems), and clarified in the Companion... A GOOD book, full of attempts
to patch a slightly leaky system... Keep playing it your way.,.. I'm by
no means saying that you are completely wrong... But despite what you seem
to think that Paul Hume and Tom Dowd think about the subject (And let's
face it, like all people, they're fallible and did their fair share to
screw up the game. The IE and the shoddy VR2 come to mind), this was NEVER
the intention of either author...

>> > Realism: Yes. This is one of very few games in which a character can
>die
>> > in one shot.
>>
>> Too bad you didn't re-join the list a week earlier, we had a big thread
>> about that very recently. Oh, and have you ever tried Phoenix Command?
>
>Actually, dying from one shot does depend on my not using the ruling, put
>in for the kiddies, that a single wound cannot go past Deadly. I didn't
>even know that caveat was in the book till a nice swiss lad pointed it out
>to me in 94. I still don't use it.
>
And your point is...?

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka Chaos, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Cuddly Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome and Archive
Answer Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
---- in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Bah! Humbug!"
-- Wise man on Christmas :]
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Hi Everyone!! Answers to the questions
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:14:25 +0100
Ralph and Ivy Ryan said on 21:20/23 Dec 97...

> That is the sure way to karma abuse from my POV. If the characters are
> jandering around town, sure. But on a run they won't catch their breath
> till it's over and the nuyens in their hands and their in their squat.
> They are never able to "catch their breath" in "Injun Country".

And what if the run is in the city they live in? You do some
investigating, run into a couple of angry gangers, have a firefight in
which you spend a few KP, go home to think about the info you got before
the firefight, your KP refreshes, you go on with the adventure.

Furthermore, if you're out of town there are _still_ lots of times when
you can relax without being chased by everybody and their hellhound; even
when you're chased you have moments where you can sit and rest for a while
because you've found a place wher you can hide for a while to plan your
next move. KP refreshes at those times, is my interpretation of the rules
in SRII.

> Ask a combat vet about patrols...

I'd say that depends a lot on what kind of patrol you're talking about,
the attitude of the soldiers in the patrol, the enemy activity in the
area, and lots more factors.

> > Too bad you didn't re-join the list a week earlier, we had a big thread
> > about that very recently. Oh, and have you ever tried Phoenix Command?
>
> Actually, dying from one shot does depend on my not using the ruling, put
> in for the kiddies, that a single wound cannot go past Deadly. I didn't
> even know that caveat was in the book till a nice swiss lad pointed it out
> to me in 94. I still don't use it.

That's not not using a rule, that's using a house rule. If you take SRII
as it's written, it's impossible to stage a wound above Deadly simply
because there _is_ nothing above Deadly. The optional rules in FoF and the
Companion try to solve this but they're too weak IMHO, so I use an
overdamage house rule of my own (I have since before FoF came out, BTW)
that makes it more lethal, but as was discussed last week or so, SRII
simply isn't a deadly game when the shooter has only a few dice and the
target has a lot plus some armor.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
There are two things you can do...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 8
From: Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: Hi Everyone!! Answers to the questions
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:12:59 -0700
Thus spake Ralph and Ivy Ryan:
>
> ----------
> > From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> > Date: Tuesday, December 23, 1997 2:11 PM
> >
> > Ralph and Ivy Ryan said on 19:48/22 Dec 97...
>
> > > Karma awards: To parphrase the book; take 1/10th of the award and
> round it
> > > up and add it to karma pool, the other 9/10th is rounded up and put
> into
> > > good karma. Also, karma is only awarded after the complete adventure
> is
> > > over, not after every session.
> >
> > Maybe you need to explain this further. As I understand it, when you
> award
> > PCs 5 Karma, it's 1 pool (KP) and 4 Good Karma (GK); next adventure they
> > get 5 Karma again, which once more becomes 1 KP and 1 GK. The result is a
> > PC with 2 KP and 8 GK earned; OTOH you could make the KP equal to 1/10th
> > of the _total_ Karma earned, and GK the rest. That way (which I think is
> > what FASA intended, but put into words in a rather poor way), the same
> > char would have a 1 KP and 9 GK.
>
> Actually the character *should* have 2 Karma Pool and 8 Good Karma. That
> was what the guys who wrote the game intended from the start. That is what
> they told me, and they sure had no reason to sell me a story.

Actually, If I remember from the flamewar you left a few years ago,
your interpretation of the rules would be that the character would,
at this point, have 10 good karma and 2 karma pool. I seem to recall
that your interpretation of the karma rules worked like: "if 5 karma is
awarded to the character, then 1/10th of that gives you .5 for karma
pool and 4.5 for good karma, which, when rounded, gives you 1 point
in karma pool and 5 in good karma."

Please correct me if I am wrong. I could always check DejaNews as I
seem to recall this argument took place on rec.games.frp.cyber.

BTW, did all of your players move with you?

--
Mike Loseke | It's pudding time, children!
mike@*******.com | -- Primus
Message no. 9
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Hi Everyone!! Answers to the questions
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:52:46 EST
In a message dated 97-12-24 12:13:37 EST, mike@******.VERINET.COM writes:

>
> Please correct me if I am wrong. I could always check DejaNews as I
> seem to recall this argument took place on rec.games.frp.cyber.
>
> BTW, did all of your players move with you?
>
THAT'S WHERE I'D seen this before...thank you Mike...you finally got me
looking in the right direction...

-K

PS I bet they all paid for -them- to move actually... ;)
Message no. 10
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Hi Everyone!! Answers to the questions
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 00:43:16 +0000
In article <199712240228.VAA06727@*****.icsnet1.com>, Ralph and Ivy Ryan
<sgmpaws@*******.COM> writes
>That is the sure way to karma abuse from my POV. If the characters are
>jandering around town, sure. But on a run they won't catch their breath
>till it's over and the nuyens in their hands and their in their squat.
>They are never able to "catch their breath" in "Injun Country".
Ask a
>combat vet about patrols...

Done a few around Salisbury Plain, Leek and STANTA.

You patrol through the night. You lie up in cover during the day. Three
sleep, one stands sentry, two hours on and six off, then one on and
three off. (varies, you juggle the numbers so everyone gets a fair
amount of sleep). You eat, sleep, change your socks and dry your feet,
redistribute ammunition, write up your patrol report... if your sentry
spots threat you go prone and get ready to bug out (you lie up in
terrain that offers good discreet exits).

Sounds like "drawing breath" to me. You do _not_ tab out and tab back
non-stop, you make sure your men are rested and alert enough to react
properly to a threat.
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Hi Everyone!! Answers to the questions, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!