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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: High Initiative and Melee Combat
Date: Wed Jan 30 10:20:02 2002
At 01:21 AM 1/30/2002 +0000, Rand Ratinac wrote:
><snipt!(TM)>
> > The benefit of wired reflexes is the precision of
>movement. The faster your reaction time, the better
>able you are to either a) disrupt your opponent's
>attack or counter effectively, or b) read his defense
>and get through it. Throwing superfast kicks or
>punches or whatever is not rocket science. Getting
>them to land and be effective against a resisting
>opponent is *much* more difficult.
> > Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)
>
>But while that sounds like sense on the surface, Marc
>(and I pretty much agree with it myself), it opens the
>whole "How come a slow bastard who's a good martial
>artist can get extra attacks on the fast bastard
>through counterattacking?" can of worms again..

<Homer>
mmmm... worms...
</Homer>

:)

For the same reason that someone can physically attack someone who passes
within one meter of them.

When you physically attack someone, you have to move into their space. In
doing so you give them an attack of opportunity. Attacks of opportunity
are reactions and do not require declarations.

I think the confusion occurs because of the wording that Shadowrun
uses. Shadowrun says that initiative determines the number of "actions" a
character gets per turn. But what is really happening is that initiative
determines the number of *declarations*, or conscious decisions, a
character gets per turn.

Defending yourself, or making an attack of opportunity, doesn't require a
conscious decision. It's a reaction, not an action. If you are physically
attacked you will try to defend yourself, even if you have no training
whatsoever. If you are trained you will react by attacking your attacker
(unless you are trained in a martial art that reacts with full defense, but
you will still try to defend yourself). If someone enters, or passes
through, your personal space you can react by taking a defensive posture or
by attacking them.

As long as you don't confuse action with reaction there isn't a problem :)

That being said, it can easily be argued that a wired character should have
some sort of advantage in melee combat. Following is the method that I use
that, IMHO, address the issue appropriately. I would love to take credit
for it, but someone else (I can't remember who) came up with it.

1. A person with extra initiative dice rolls extra dice in a melee
attack/defense equal to the number of extra initiative dice they have. If
a character has +2 initiative dice, they also get +2 melee dice.

It's quick and it's easy :)

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: High Initiative and Melee Combat
Date: Wed Jan 30 10:30:11 2002
>That being said, it can easily be argued that a wired character should
>have some sort of advantage in melee combat. Following is the method that
>I use that, IMHO, address the issue appropriately. I would love to take
>credit for it, but someone else (I can't remember who) came up with it.
>
>1. A person with extra initiative dice rolls extra dice in a melee
>attack/defense equal to the number of extra initiative dice they have. If
>a character has +2 initiative dice, they also get +2 melee dice.
>
>It's quick and it's easy :)

I just thought of another way to handle it.

Apply the Friends in Melee bonus to extra attacks.

A character with three actions attacks uses all of those actions to attack
someone who has two actions. On the first two attacks everything is equal
and combat is conducted normally. The third attack is starting to push the
defender past his ability to defend himself so the attacker gets the
Friends in Melee bonus for that attack (he's effectively his own best
friend ;).

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: High Initiative and Melee Combat
Date: Wed Jan 30 13:20:01 2002
>From: Graht <davidb@****.imcprint.com>

>>1. A person with extra initiative dice rolls extra dice in a melee
>>attack/defense equal to the number of extra initiative dice they >>have.
>>If a character has +2 initiative dice, they also get +2 melee >>dice.

Hmmm...perhaps those extra dice could also be applied to athletics when
rolling to see how high your effective Quickness would be for movement that
round. Also, perhaps the reaction bonus from wired reflexes/etc. could be
added to Quickness for purposes of determining movement distance in a round.
One or both methods could easily be used to simulate the movement edge
that boosted motor nervous systems might provide.


>I just thought of another way to handle it.
>Apply the Friends in Melee bonus to extra attacks.
>A character with three actions attacks uses all of those actions to >attack
>someone who has two actions. On the first two attacks >everything is equal
>and combat is conducted normally. The third >attack is starting to push
>the defender past his ability to defend >himself so the attacker gets the
>Friends in Melee bonus for that >attack (he's effectively his own best
>friend ;).

Oooh....

Oooohhhh! Very very yes. As a long time martial artist, I can attest to
the difficulty in effectively blocking and/or counter-attacking against a
significantly faster opponent. My first exposure to a competant kenpo
student taught me that the hard way. Blocking the first three or four
techniques was not hard. But I never had time to formulate a counter, I was
stuck in a comppletely defensive posture. By the seventh strike, I was
finding it nearly impossible to block and keep my footwork stable. I was
either getting hit, tripping over myself, or stepping completely out of the
kumite circle. The sheer speed and volume of attacks began to make my own
body an enemy. One block would hamper another. Thank you.


As a possible side thread:

How many of you have tampered with melee/had to hand combat rules in SR to
remove some of the abstraction? I have never liked what I find to be an
oversimplification of close fighting. Firearms are covered so heavily, but
knife fighting and kickboxing are reduced to a pair of dice rolls with a
slim list of modifiers. I have implented a number of fixes for this.

Prob 1) troll with combat axe versus wired martial artist with empty
hands...troll has massive reach advantage, even if martial artist happens to
close in and stands inside the troll's elbow/knee range.
Fix) combat pool dice can be spent to buy down reach differential
Reason) combat pool is described as one's ability to place themself
advantageously in a fight...getting inside the lethal zone where the axe is
most effective definately falls under advantageous placement

Prob 2) every attack is automatically countered...there is no straight
evade/block maneuver...so a fast sword fighter of average skill (4) will
kill himself attacking a physad with a lot of extra dice in his unarmed
skill, even if the physad is only ducking and blocking
Fix) anyone can declare a block, implying that they will not counterattack.
block has a TN of 3, with no modifiers beyond injury penalties. a block
is a reactive measure, and can only be directed against a single attack. a
character can block a number of melee attacks equal to half their unarmed
combat skill (round down) in a phase. [I only allow a number of automatic
counter-attacks equal to half unarmed skill, rounded down] successes on the
block test count against opponent's attack successes before resolving damage
resistance tests. forearm guards add +1 dice to unarmed skill for blocking
tests. rolling all 1's on a blocking test = very very bad!
Reason) full defensive fighting should not injure an attacker, and should
be markedly easier than defending and counter-attacking

I have some other small fixes I use, basically an expanded list of
melee/unarmed combat modifiers. The basic idea is that I encourage
unarmed/armed combat, since firearms are often not an option for those extra
stealthy runs, or when you would rather not kill your opponent. More house
rules develope whenever we encounter a situation that the existing rules
just do not account for.

Enjoy,
Kori

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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: High Initiative and Melee Combat
Date: Wed Jan 30 13:55:16 2002
According to Graht, on Wed, 30 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...

> (he's effectively his own best friend ;).

Nah, we'd first need a Mog racial variant before you can make a character
like that ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: High Initiative and Melee Combat
Date: Wed Jan 30 14:20:02 2002
At 07:50 PM 1/30/2002 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>According to Graht, on Wed, 30 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...
>
> > (he's effectively his own best friend ;).
>
>Nah, we'd first need a Mog racial variant before you can make a character
>like that ;)

LOL

That's funny Gurth, you don't *look* Druish ;)

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Martin Little)
Subject: High Initiative and Melee Combat
Date: Wed Jan 30 14:30:04 2002
On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Graht wrote:

> At 07:50 PM 1/30/2002 +0100, Gurth wrote:
> >According to Graht, on Wed, 30 Jan 2002 the word on the street was...
> >
> > > (he's effectively his own best friend ;).
> >
> >Nah, we'd first need a Mog racial variant before you can make a character
> >like that ;)
>
> LOL
>
> That's funny Gurth, you don't *look* Druish ;)
>

Does this mean we're going to start discussing how effective strawberry
jam is at disabling radar?
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Meph)
Subject: High Initiative and Melee Combat
Date: Wed Jan 30 16:55:11 2002
> Does this mean we're going to start discussing how effective strawberry
> jam is at disabling radar?

Umm...excuse me. Not to show my geekhood, but it was rasberry.

"Only one man would dare give me the rasberry....Lone Star....<clunk>"

Meph
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Martin Little)
Subject: High Initiative and Melee Combat
Date: Wed Jan 30 17:10:01 2002
On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Meph wrote:

> > Does this mean we're going to start discussing how effective strawberry
> > jam is at disabling radar?
>
> Umm...excuse me. Not to show my geekhood, but it was rasberry.
>
> "Only one man would dare give me the rasberry....Lone
Star....<clunk>"
>

I knew it was one of the two :) Last time I saw the movie was during it's
theatre run.
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Marc Renouf)
Subject: High Initiative and Melee Combat
Date: Wed Jan 30 17:25:01 2002
On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Ice Heart wrote:

> How many of you have tampered with melee/had to hand combat rules in SR to
> remove some of the abstraction?

I've toyed with the melee combat rules, but never to remove
abstraction. Melee combat is abstract for a reason. As a martial artist
myself, I see firsthand how complicated unarmed combat can be, especially
in less-than-ideal conditions. Real fighting is messy, dirty, and usually
over in the blink of an eye when either of the combatants have any
appreciable skill. So yes, it's a little simplified, but breaking it down
into individual punches, kicks, counters, etc is too much.

> I have never liked what I find to be an oversimplification of close
> fighting. Firearms are covered so heavily, but knife fighting and
> kickboxing are reduced to a pair of dice rolls with a
> slim list of modifiers.

Actually, there are a lot of modifiers that apply to melee.
Visibility modifiers are halved, but still apply. Likewise, I still apply
difficult ground. Add in reach, friends, called-shots, aiming, and
defaulting (more on these last three in a bit) and you have all sorts of
stuff that can push the target number up pretty high.

> I have implented a number of fixes for this.
>
> Prob 1) troll with combat axe versus wired martial artist with empty
> hands...troll has massive reach advantage, even if martial artist happens to
> close in and stands inside the troll's elbow/knee range.
> Fix) combat pool dice can be spent to buy down reach differential
> Reason) combat pool is described as one's ability to place themself
> advantageously in a fight...getting inside the lethal zone where the axe is
> most effective definately falls under advantageous placement

I like this, but it might make Reach less useful. Granted, SR3's
mechanic of only having the Combat Pool refresh once per turn (rather than
per action as in SR2) makes this a little bit more of a gamble.
I tend to run defeating reach as a game-effect called-shot (more
on this later). That is, you make a called-shot to defeat your opponent's
reach, and if successful he is unable to gain the reach advantage until he
successfully makes a game-effect called shot to open the distance back up
(or until he knocks you down).
But at some level having someone "get in" on you is less useful
than you might imagine. Having trained with long weapons for a long time
know, I've learned that there are a lot of ways to make people who think
that getting close will slove their dilemma pay dearly. We even train in
grappling techniques with staves. When this same type of technique is
applied to something like a naginata, the result can be quite messy.

> Prob 2) every attack is automatically countered...there is no straight
> evade/block maneuver.

Actually, there is. Look at the "Full Defense" option in the
melee combat section (SR3, p. 123).

> I have some other small fixes I use, basically an expanded list of
> melee/unarmed combat modifiers.

I cut keep the modifiers standard, but apply more options. Six of
one, a half-dozen of the other.
If you're curious about some of the stuff I mentioned, check out
my house rules for SR3 (which are finally finished, by the way) at:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/Shadowrun/rules3.html

In it are such things as the effects of aiming in melee, using
called shots in melee (which are only +2 as opposed to +4 for ranged
combat), and defaulting from one skill to another (and how the various
martial arts skills work in practice). Check it out, because it's
explained much more clearly there than I can do it here.

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

Other ShadowRN-related addresses and links:
Mark Imbriaco <mark@*********.com> List Owner
Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> Assistant List Administrator
DVixen <dvixen@*********.com> Keeper of the FAQs
Gurth <gurth@******.nl> GridSec Enforcer Division
David Buehrer <graht@******.net> GridSec "Nice Guy" Division
ShadowRN FAQ <http://hlair.dumpshock.com/faqindex.php3>;
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: High Initiative and Melee Combat
Date: Wed Jan 30 21:35:05 2002
>>1. A person with extra initiative dice rolls extra dice in a melee
>>attack/defense equal to the number of extra initiative dice they have. If
>>a character has +2 initiative dice, they also get +2 melee dice.
>>
>>It's quick and it's easy :)
>
>I just thought of another way to handle it.
>
>Apply the Friends in Melee bonus to extra attacks.
>
>A character with three actions attacks uses all of those actions to attack
>someone who has two actions. On the first two attacks everything is equal
>and combat is conducted normally. The third attack is starting to push the
>defender past his ability to defend himself so the attacker gets the
>Friends in Melee bonus for that attack (he's effectively his own best
>friend ;).

I thought that was a dog?
But seriously, I've always ran it that when you get attacked you cannot
counter attack. If you do really well you just did a really good block
(This makes the dept power Counterstrike alot more powerful). This stops a
guy with a skill of six taking down 20 sammies with skill 2 who happened to
go one after the other.
I'm thinking of adding in something along the lines of, if you get more net
successes than his skill, then you have Superior Position for the next
round of melle with him. I also make anyone fighting with a guy with an
edged weapon when they are weaponless have a +1 TN to their melee test, but
not dodge test, since when a guys swinging a sword at you, you had better
be really skilled, or just get the hell out of the way.
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: High Initiative and Melee Combat
Date: Wed Jan 30 21:40:01 2002
Ice Heart writes:

> How many of you have tampered with melee/had to hand combat rules in SR to
> remove some of the abstraction?

I've a couple of house rules, which I will elaborate on below, but I might
suggest that you invest in Cannon Companion. There are optional martial arts
rules in their that, although not exactly perfect (unfortunately, apparently
to anyone knowledgable about such things, rather poor), but they do solve
many of the issues that you bring up. Although they, too, are abstractions,
they do have somewhat finer detail than the general rules.

> Prob 1) troll with combat axe versus wired martial artist with empty
> hands...troll has massive reach advantage, even if martial artist happens
> to close in and stands inside the troll's elbow/knee range.

The CC rules have a "Close Combat" maneouver that eliminates their (and your
;-)) Reach bonuses. Check it out.

I use a number of Marc's rules, especially the Called Shot and Aiming rules.
I can attest that they add very much to melee combat. Now I usually get
situations where characters circle each other lineing up shots, or hanging
back waiting for the opponent to make the first move, and then sweeping them
off balance. Aiming in melee combat in particular drastically alters the "he
whacks you, you whack him" D&D style of melee combat that used to be common
in SR.

Another, fairly major rule that I use is to do with counterattacking. I rule
that to _counterattack_, you need to expend your next available Action this
Combat Turn. If you do not wish to counteratack, or have no Actions
remaining with which to do so, then you may only block. Blocking is exactly
the same dice roll as counterattacking, but even if you achieve more
successes than the attacker, all you do is successfully stall their attack,
rather than clobbering them. This, I feel, models the "fast attacker forcing
the slower one (like your example) on the defensive". The slower combatant
ends up blocking most attacks, and doesn't manage to get a decent attack in.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (lance dillon)
Subject: High Initiative and Melee Combat
Date: Thu Jan 31 07:55:00 2002
Meph wrote:

> > Does this mean we're going to start discussing how effective strawberry
> > jam is at disabling radar?
>
> Umm...excuse me. Not to show my geekhood, but it was rasberry.
>
> "Only one man would dare give me the rasberry....Lone
Star....<clunk>"
>
> Meph
>

I was about to say that, but restrained myself :)

-rr
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Meph)
Subject: High Initiative and Melee Combat
Date: Thu Jan 31 11:10:15 2002
> I was about to say that, but restrained myself :)


That was probably the wiser choice! :>

Meph

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