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From:	Technomancer <arvanit@***.UCH.GR>
Subject:	High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:19:34 +0200

Message no. 1 I have a new? question to pose to the list:
How can you balance the game for a mage with 8+ force elementals at his
call?
Sure they have only 1 or 2 services each, but a force 10 elemental with
one service is still a force 10 elemental.
Also, how difficult would it be for a mage to find a place where he can
inscribe a summoning circle for force 10 elementals and summon a total of
32 force points worth? (They are 32 hours and he has a spell lock, so he
doesn't get drained.)
Also also, his charisma +3 lock helps with the drain?

*********************************************************************
* Technomancer * Modesty is one of my countless virtues *
* arvanit@***.uch.gr *
* http://www.csd.uch.gr/~arvanit/ *
*********************************************************************

From:	Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:21:45 -0500

Message no. 2 On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Technomancer wrote:

> I have a new? question to pose to the list:
> How can you balance the game for a mage with 8+ force elementals at his
> call?

Have some random astral being notice the little army which following him
around and decide to pick a fight. Or have a mage cop spot this from
astral space.

> Sure they have only 1 or 2 services each, but a force 10 elemental with
> one service is still a force 10 elemental.

with one service? After he manifests, he's gone. (manifestation=one
service)

> Also, how difficult would it be for a mage to find a place where he can
> inscribe a summoning circle for force 10 elementals and summon a total of
> 32 force points worth? (They are 32 hours and he has a spell lock, so he
> doesn't get drained.)
> Also also, his charisma +3 lock helps with the drain?
>
Yes, his charisma +3 lock helps with the drain. That's the point isn't
it?

%)

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 07:56:02 -0700

Message no. 3 Technomancer wrote:
|
| I have a new? question to pose to the list:
| How can you balance the game for a mage with 8+ force elementals at his
| call?
| Sure they have only 1 or 2 services each, but a force 10 elemental with
| one service is still a force 10 elemental.

I don't know if this will help, but there's a Shamanic
Conjuror in my game that commonly summons high force
spirits. The way I deal with it is to throw high number of
goons at them in combat, or use NPCs or critters with
astral perception to foil the spirit's concealment power
(or high tech works too), or I run encounters that require
the player to think or roleplay his way through it. It's
like that Sam vs Mage debate. Anything can be beaten if
the opposing force is on "high ground".

Also, make sure the Mage is paying for all the material
costs for summoning those elementals. And, you can always
take away his money (some net burglar hits *his* bank
account this week, or some critter breaks into his room
while he's away and steals his bankrole to line it's nest
:)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:56:22 +0000

Message no. 4 > > How can you balance the game for a mage with 8+ force elementals at his
> > call?
> Have some random astral being notice the little army which following him
> around and decide to pick a fight. Or have a mage cop spot this from
> astral space.
Also prevent him getting those 8+ Force elementals in the first place,
unless he's an enchanter each force 8 elemental would cost 8,000 Nuyen and
teh mage has the potential to not summon the spirit and still lose the
materials. ANd even if he is successful paying 8,000 Nuyen for maybe one
service may not always be cost efficient (hire two decent samurais, a
second low power mage even! for that cost).

> > inscribe a summoning circle for force 10 elementals and summon a total of
> > 32 force points worth? (They are 32 hours and he has a spell lock, so he
32 force points = 32,000 Nuyen!

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:01:44 -0500

Message no. 5 >How can you balance the game for a mage with 8+ force elementals at his
>call?

Have him meet his counterpart....Lotsa steam and Mud.

>Sure they have only 1 or 2 services each, but a force 10 elemental with
>one service is still a force 10 elemental.

Unless he has them on "standby", every passing 24 hours is a service. If
they are on standby, it takes a Complex action to bring them back, and then
a Simple action to command them. By then, you can perferate the mage fairly
well.

>Also, how difficult would it be for a mage to find a place where he can
>inscribe a summoning circle for force 10 elementals and summon a total of
>32 force points worth? (They are 32 hours and he has a spell lock, so he
>doesn't get drained.)

Find _A_ place? Well, if can afford those kind of materials, he shouldn't
have too much trouble renting a warehouse. Now, finding a place that he
won't be disturbed in......

>Also also, his charisma +3 lock helps with the drain?

No. I'm not sure where it says this, but I'm very sure it doesn't.

-=SwiftOne=-

From:	The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:04:18 +0000

Message no. 6 On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, David Buehrer wrote:

> costs for summoning those elementals. And, you can always
> take away his money (some net burglar hits *his* bank
> account this week, or some critter breaks into his room
And if you think this might be a bit too cruel it wouldn't totally deprive
him of his funds unless teh decker was really good, the bank would be
insured against theft. What it might do though is freeze up his assets for
a certain time (say till the end of the run <evil gm grin> :)

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:25:35 -0500

Message no. 7 The Digital Mage enlightened us with these words of wisdom:
>> costs for summoning those elementals. And, you can always
>> take away his money (some net burglar hits *his* bank
>> account this week, or some critter breaks into his room
>And if you think this might be a bit too cruel it wouldn't totally deprive
>him of his funds unless teh decker was really good, the bank would be
>insured against theft. What it might do though is freeze up his assets for
>a certain time (say till the end of the run <evil gm grin> :)

I think the bank run IS too cruel...you are targeting a player simply
because he is effective.....Now, if your NPC's did it, that's different. Or
if you do things like this to any player with enough money saved up, sure.
In general, it's better to make smarter enemies than to just bring down the
almight fist (cow?) of the GM God and squich 'em. Otherwise the players get
resentful...("What's the point of getting good, if you're just going to take
it away from me no matter WHAT I do?")...but usually they're much happier
about it if they know that there is a CHANCE for them to save themselves,
and that they are not being targeted by you, (the Frustrated GM whom he
can't do anything about) but rather by the NPC (the Evil and Clever villain,
who the player must defeat in a battle of wits and subterfuge).

While occasionally it is necessary, most of the time you can avoid "Munchkin
GM'ing". It leads to happier people all around. Can't we all get along?
Where's the love?

Sorry, got carried away. Say, I like my little speech up there. I think
I'll put it on my web page. Cool. You know, this stream of consciousness
email is kinda weird. Bet it's annoying you too. I should stop.

-=SwiftOne=-

From:	Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 10:36:21 -0500

Message no. 8 How about this: have him meet someone who's a better summoner than him, and
have him take control of the elemental (see control contests, SRII conjuring
section). This will cause them BOTH to take drain, but having a Force 10
elemental turned against you will hurt. Drawback: This other mage will be rolling
for 12s while the mage will be rolling for 10s. He'll need three times as many dice
to make it, which seems unlikely, even with a high powered focus or something.

Double-Domed Mike

From:	Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:29:21 GMT

Message no. 9 Technomancer writes

> I have a new? question to pose to the list:
> How can you balance the game for a mage with 8+ force elementals at his
> call?
Don't pay him too much for runs, if one of these things costs half
his pay he will be very loathe to use them.

> Sure they have only 1 or 2 services each, but a force 10 elemental with
> one service is still a force 10 elemental.
Which has exactly zero armour against damaging manipulations, weapon
foci and the 'TROLL with muscle AUG 4 and a ranger arms compund bow
:)', have a read at manifetation, p142 SR2, twang! incoming 18M
smartgun, oh i need 2's so i only roll willpower big deal, yes come
on elemental roll an 18 i dare you! SPLAT!!!!!!!

Don't you just love the street sams catalogue! i was reasearching how
to kill big bugs, spray your arrows with lots of insecticide and just
looks at thos (very big number) S wounds, bow accesory mount,
smartgun, roll projectile weapons (using vulnerabiltiy), add custom
weapon, enhanced articl and combat pool and grin as the queen goes
CRUNCH rappily followed by the GM exploding as the rest die of lack
of queen :)
Small mercies my players have yet to find this.

> Also, how difficult would it be for a mage to find a place where he can
> inscribe a summoning circle for force 10 elementals and summon a total of
> 32 force points worth? (They are 32 hours and he has a spell lock, so he
> doesn't get drained.)
about 3 days and the riggers wearhouse :)

If he's kind enough to pick an abandoned one well send in some
gangers, i think being busy conjouring is 'perciever distracted',
your concentration is broken by the feel of cold steel at your
throat, you should only need to do it once. Don't kill him (unless
he's silly enough to cast a spell in this condition), torture is far
more fun :)

> Also also, his charisma +3 lock helps with the drain?
>
Yes.

Mark

From:	Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 10:09:00 MST

Message no. 10 >I have a new? question to pose to the list:
>How can you balance the game for a mage with 8+ force elementals at his
>call?
>Sure they have only 1 or 2 services each, but a force 10 elemental with
>one service is still a force 10 elemental.

There is something else that no one else has mentioned, and that is the time
required to summon the elemental. It takes one hour/force point of the
elemental. The book doesn't call this "base time" so I'm guessing you can't
use your successes to reduce the time. Either way, you are not going to get
more than a couple successes anyway.

Since it takes so long to summon a high force elemental, and they won't last
too long, they require to planning and foresight. One or two services and
they are gone. One or two days and they are gone.

The best thing to do as a DM is space the adventure out some. Most
adventures usually take at least a couple of days. Usually to give the
characters time to recover a bit, as well as to do some legwork. If the
adventure is spaced out a few days (depending on the storyline) the mage
will have to figure out the best time to summon a force 10 elemental. While
he is spending 10 hours a day he cannot be interrupted, and he won't be
recovering or doing and legwork. Or much shadowrunning work, either. He
will also tie up a few other runners, because who wants to leave themselves
ungaurded in the middle of a run while conjuring?

>Also, how difficult would it be for a mage to find a place where he can
>inscribe a summoning circle for force 10 elementals and summon a total of
>32 force points worth? (They are 32 hours and he has a spell lock, so he
>doesn't get drained.)

after 32 hours, the first elemental he summoned will probably be gone. And
doesn't the mage sleep?

>Also also, his charisma +3 lock helps with the drain?

I suppose it would, but sitting around for 32 hours with an active spell
lock? With the energy of a force 10 conjuring going on for that long? A
bug may come clear over from Chicago to check that one out!:)

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com

From:	Faux Pas <thomas@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 10:52:21 -0600

Message no. 11 At 04:19 PM 1/28/97 +0200, you wrote:
>I have a new? question to pose to the list:
>How can you balance the game for a mage with 8+ force elementals at his
>call?
>Sure they have only 1 or 2 services each, but a force 10 elemental with
>one service is still a force 10 elemental.

Have someone tackle or hit the mage, using the knockdown rules or GMs
prerogative, spinning the mage so he can't see the elemental. Then check
out the LOS restrictions on elementals.

-Thomas Deeny
telltale.hart.org

"Yes."
-Tamara [soon-to-be] Deeny

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:08:34 +0000

Message no. 12 |>Also also, his charisma +3 lock helps with the drain?
|
|No. I'm not sure where it says this, but I'm very sure it doesn't.

I think it does... After all, improve Willpower helps in spellcasting....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:19:28 +0000

Message no. 13 |
|At 04:19 PM 1/28/97 +0200, you wrote:
|>I have a new? question to pose to the list:
|>How can you balance the game for a mage with 8+ force elementals at his
|>call?
|>Sure they have only 1 or 2 services each, but a force 10 elemental with
|>one service is still a force 10 elemental.
|
|Have someone tackle or hit the mage, using the knockdown rules or GMs
|prerogative, spinning the mage so he can't see the elemental. Then check
|out the LOS restrictions on elementals.

And at that force rating, it's almost inevitable that the elemental will go
free.... Free Spirit, force 10 anyone?????

OUCH.....

And if he didn't treat it very well.......
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 10:28:37 -0800

Message no. 14 >At 04:19 PM 1/28/97 +0200, you wrote:
>>I have a new? question to pose to the list:
>>How can you balance the game for a mage with 8+ force elementals at his
>>call?
>>Sure they have only 1 or 2 services each, but a force 10 elemental with
>>one service is still a force 10 elemental.

What I do is just rigidly enforce a 24-hour rule on elementals. Every
24 hours that passes, an elemental loses one services. And, the way
I do it, this is REGARDLESS of whether it's being kept in the "deep
astral" or not.

If you've got a PC who can keep a stable of force 10 elementals around
at all times under that guideline, you've got worse problems to deal
with... :-)

So, the PC is never guaranteed to always have such firepower around at
his beck and call. And, even with advanced warning ("we'll hit the
corp at this time..."), they will only have one (or, maybe, two) of such
monstrous elementals around.

I like this because it puts elementals in their "place". They should be
useful, but they shouldn't dominate the game (IMHO).

- Brett

From:	Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:33:00 MST

Message no. 15 >|Have someone tackle or hit the mage, using the knockdown rules or GMs
>|prerogative, spinning the mage so he can't see the elemental. Then check
>|out the LOS restrictions on elementals.
>
>And at that force rating, it's almost inevitable that the elemental will go
>free.... Free Spirit, force 10 anyone?????
>
>OUCH.....
>
>And if he didn't treat it very well.......

Wouldn't that just end the service? Can they get free just if the mage
blinks?

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:45:33 +0000

From:	Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:41:39 -0800

Message no. 17 On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, The Digital Mage wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, David Buehrer wrote:
>
> > costs for summoning those elementals. And, you can always
> > take away his money (some net burglar hits *his* bank
> > account this week, or some critter breaks into his room
> And if you think this might be a bit too cruel it wouldn't totally deprive
> him of his funds unless teh decker was really good, the bank would be
> insured against theft. What it might do though is freeze up his assets for
> a certain time (say till the end of the run <evil gm grin> :)
>
> The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
>

Or simply make him go through the whole "Availability" procedure for
getting his materials....then double the times due to some shortage or
something. His contact calls to say "I got your materials" but alas, they
arrived about a week too late...:)

~Tim

From:	Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:09:36 -0800

Message no. 18 On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Faux Pas wrote:

> At 04:19 PM 1/28/97 +0200, you wrote:
> >I have a new? question to pose to the list:
> >How can you balance the game for a mage with 8+ force elementals at his
> >call?
> >Sure they have only 1 or 2 services each, but a force 10 elemental with
> >one service is still a force 10 elemental.
>
> Have someone tackle or hit the mage, using the knockdown rules or GMs
> prerogative, spinning the mage so he can't see the elemental. Then check
> out the LOS restrictions on elementals.
>

Having an elemental go uncontrolled or something everytime the mage looked
over his shoulder is just plain dumb (pardon the frankness). I see it as
merely that the elemental can't be ordered if out of sight. If you leave
the elemental in one place and walk around the corner, it would just wait
there until you called it

>
> -Thomas Deeny
> telltale.hart.org
>
> "Yes."
> -Tamara [soon-to-be] Deeny
>

~Tim

From:	Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:17:35 -0800

Message no. 19 On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Brett Barksdale wrote:

> >At 04:19 PM 1/28/97 +0200, you wrote:
> >>I have a new? question to pose to the list:
> >>How can you balance the game for a mage with 8+ force elementals at his
> >>call?
> >>Sure they have only 1 or 2 services each, but a force 10 elemental with
> >>one service is still a force 10 elemental.
>
> What I do is just rigidly enforce a 24-hour rule on elementals. Every
> 24 hours that passes, an elemental loses one services. And, the way
> I do it, this is REGARDLESS of whether it's being kept in the "deep
> astral" or not.

That's a mis-interpretation of the rule. The rule is that you can summon
your elemental and not give it an order at that time...it just sorta hangs
around until you give it an order - it's on stand-by. For every 24 hours
on "stand-by" it looses one service. If you conjure an elemental and
never give it orders, it could remain bound for years.

>
> If you've got a PC who can keep a stable of force 10 elementals around
> at all times under that guideline, you've got worse problems to deal
> with... :-)
>
> So, the PC is never guaranteed to always have such firepower around at
> his beck and call. And, even with advanced warning ("we'll hit the
> corp at this time..."), they will only have one (or, maybe, two) of such
> monstrous elementals around.
>
> I like this because it puts elementals in their "place". They should be
> useful, but they shouldn't dominate the game (IMHO).

Despite the fact that elementals are notoriously easy to kill...

>
> - Brett
>

~Tim

From:	Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:34:00 MST

Message no. 20 >That's a mis-interpretation of the rule. The rule is that you can summon
>your elemental and not give it an order at that time...it just sorta hangs
>around until you give it an order - it's on stand-by. For every 24 hours
>on "stand-by" it looses one service. If you conjure an elemental and
>never give it orders, it could remain bound for years.

How can it remain bound for years if every day it uses up a service. Every
day one of two things will happen: it will be called from stand-by (service
spent) or it won't be called from stand-by (service spent). Isn't that
right?

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com

From:	Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals -Reply
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:57:31 -0500

Message no. 21 >How can it remain bound for years if every day it uses up a service. Every day
>one of two things will happen: it will be called from stand-by (service spent) or it
>won't be called from stand-by (service spent). Isn't that right?
>
>Denzil Kruse d.kruse@****.com

At the end of the conjuring ritual, an elemental is "bound", but no longer
present
near the mage, in astral or physical space.

With a complex action, a mage can "call" a bound elemental. Note that this
calling
is an exclusive act (no sustained spells).

Now the elemental is present and the mage can ask it to perform services (simple
action). If you don't ask for any services and 24 hours pass, it counts as a
service.

It is open to interpretation if the mage can send the elemental away without ever
using up a service: I have always played that you cannot, but after re-reading the
rules just now I think I have to call that a house rule.

By the way, assigning an elemental to someone else does not seem to use up a
service (I forget who said it did).

Double-Domed Mike

From:	Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:15:10 -0500

Message no. 22 Denzil Kruse wrote:

<Snip>

> How can it remain bound for years if every day it uses up a service. Every
> day one of two things will happen: it will be called from stand-by (service
> spent) or it won't be called from stand-by (service spent). Isn't that
> right?

No. ;) There is a distinct trade-off with Shamanic Spirits as compared
to Elementals. Spirits can be summoned on the fly (like watchers), but
they don't last very long. Elementals take hours of preparation to
summon, but can be bound for eternity. See, if you summon an elemental
and use none or some of it's services, you can send it "home" (to it's
appropriate metaplane) where it will go about its own business until it
is summoned....but it's still bound and can be summoned with a simple
action (maybe it's complex, I can't recall). I am not sure if summoning
the elemental from its metaplane costs a service. I would have to look
that up.

If, on the other hand, you have the elemental hang around the physical
or astral plane, you lose one service for every 24 hours it is around.
You can bind the elemental to a specific area for the cost of 1 karma
per force point of the elemental, in which case it will patrol that area
until it is destroyed (they make great guard dogs). ;)

> Denzil Kruse
> d.kruse@****.com

Justin :)
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu

From:	Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals -Reply
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:17:03 -0500

Message no. 23 Mike Elkins wrote:

<Snip>

> By the way, assigning an elemental to someone else does not seem to use up a
> service (I forget who said it did).

I did. Perhaps it's a house rule, but I thought for sure it was in a
rulebook somewhere. ;)

> Double-Domed Mike

Justin :)
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu

From:	Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:28:28 -0800

Message no. 24 >No. ;) There is a distinct trade-off with Shamanic Spirits as compared
>to Elementals. Spirits can be summoned on the fly (like watchers), but
>they don't last very long. Elementals take hours of preparation to
>summon, but can be bound for eternity. See, if you summon an elemental
>and use none or some of it's services, you can send it "home" (to it's
>appropriate metaplane) where it will go about its own business until it
>is summoned....but it's still bound and can be summoned with a simple
>action (maybe it's complex, I can't recall). I am not sure if summoning
>the elemental from its metaplane costs a service. I would have to look
>that up.
>
>If, on the other hand, you have the elemental hang around the physical
>or astral plane, you lose one service for every 24 hours it is around.
>You can bind the elemental to a specific area for the cost of 1 karma
>per force point of the elemental, in which case it will patrol that area
>until it is destroyed (they make great guard dogs). ;)

As far as I know, the above is correct - according to the rules. Yes,
it's /mind-numbingly stupid/, but it's correct according to the printed
letter of the various rulebooks. (The rule - not what the person is
saying :-)

The problem is that an enterprising mage with time can, basically, summon
up the biggest elementals their ability will allow them and keep them
"on ice" forever. Sure, it may take a complex action to bring them all
back and, yes, in a firefight, that can be fatal. But that small delay
is a piddling "drawback" to having a half-dozen monster elementals ready
at the drop of a hat. (It's not even a real drawback - it just means that
sometimes the mage won't get to use them if he gets jumped. It's not like
he's suffering TN modifiers or whatnot while gaining the benefits of this
arrangement.)

Basically, I've seen a lot of house rules meant to deal with this problem
and a lot of them are interesting. The biggest problem I've seen, however,
is that some of the suggestions are money and time-based. And while those
are admirible constraints for /PC/ mages, they are worthless for /NPC/ mages.
Hey, you think Renraku or AZT or <insert random corp here> won't blow
100,000 nuyen to make sure their mage has all the materials and time
necessary to develop their stable of mondo-elementals? Not likely. Millions
of nuyen to get someone wired-up to SOTA but an order of magnitude less
nuyen to get a fraggin' astral army per mage? An easy call to make.

The logical carry-thru, if the letter of the rulebook law is used, is that
anyone with money (basically, most SR bad guys) and mage talent will be
able to drop a SH*TLOAD of elementals on whomever runs against them.

Nasty stuff.

That's why I thought it was easier to make the 24 hr limit absolute. In
fact, when I read the rules the first time, I thought that /was/ the way
it was - officially. (Because the other way is so stupid.) You
don't have to strain common sense to make your "world view" work. Plus,
it's a lot simpler solution.

IMHO, of course.

- Brett

From:	Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:47:40 -0500

Message no. 25 Brett Barksdale wrote:

<Snip of my post>

<Snip>

> The logical carry-thru, if the letter of the rulebook law is used, is that
> anyone with money (basically, most SR bad guys) and mage talent will be
> able to drop a SH*TLOAD of elementals on whomever runs against them.

> Nasty stuff.

> That's why I thought it was easier to make the 24 hr limit absolute. In
> fact, when I read the rules the first time, I thought that /was/ the way
> it was - officially. (Because the other way is so stupid.) You
> don't have to strain common sense to make your "world view" work. Plus,
> it's a lot simpler solution.

> IMHO, of course.

Of course. ;) I understand how you view this as overwhelming.
However, if you keep money and karma a little modest in your game, you
will find that none of the mages have more than one or two elementals at
any given time, if they have any at all. Also, unless they are willing
to burn karma on successes, they won't be getting force 10 elementals,
either. (This is assuming your players are getting karma in a sensible
fashion...if they are grade 10 initiates with conjuring skills of 12,
then you have a problem with karma awards, not elementals.)

With a conjuring skill of 6 you can't statistically get an elemental
above a reasonable force with any amount of services, unless you use
centering or burn karma. Even if you do use centering, a centering
skill of 6 will only yield a maximum of three successes. Again, this is
not statistically probable. Take into consideration that a failure when
attempting to conjure costs them a ton of NY and several hours for
nothing, most characters will think twice before attempting to conjure
something beyond their means.

> - Brett

All IMHO, of course. ;)

Justin :)
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu

From:	Brian Johnson <john0375@****.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:04:19 -0600

Message no. 26 >
> With a conjuring skill of 6 you can't statistically get an elemental
> above a reasonable force with any amount of services, unless you use
> centering or burn karma. Even if you do use centering, a centering
> skill of 6 will only yield a maximum of three successes. Again, this is
> not statistically probable. Take into consideration that a failure when
> attempting to conjure costs them a ton of NY and several hours for
> nothing, most characters will think twice before attempting to conjure
> something beyond their means.
>
you've lost me, this centering seems to be used (above) to gain services?
which is never possible, only to reduce drain and target MODIFIERS.

From:	Faux Pas <thomas@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:46:48 -0600

Message no. 27 At 12:09 PM 1/28/97 -0800, you wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Faux Pas wrote:
>> Have someone tackle or hit the mage, using the knockdown rules or GMs
>> prerogative, spinning the mage so he can't see the elemental. Then check
>> out the LOS restrictions on elementals.

>Having an elemental go uncontrolled or something everytime the mage looked
>over his shoulder is just plain dumb (pardon the frankness). I see it as
>merely that the elemental can't be ordered if out of sight. If you leave
>the elemental in one place and walk around the corner, it would just wait
>there until you called it

I do agree that the idea I suggested is dumb and even my group doesn't play
that way. For LOS, if the elemental is in the line of sight of the mage if
the mage was capable of seeing it [if the mage had 360 degree vision], the
elemental would still be there, doing whatever it's supposed to be doing.
If there is an uninterrupted line between the two, everything's cool, the
mage doesn't have to be looking at the elemental.

-Thomas Deeny
telltale.hart.org

"Yes."
-Tamara [soon-to-be] Deeny

From:	Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:11:36 -0800

Message no. 28 >Of course. ;) I understand how you view this as overwhelming.
>However, if you keep money and karma a little modest in your game, you
>will find that none of the mages have more than one or two elementals at
>any given time, if they have any at all. Also, unless they are willing
>to burn karma on successes, they won't be getting force 10 elementals,
>either. (This is assuming your players are getting karma in a sensible
>fashion...if they are grade 10 initiates with conjuring skills of 12,
>then you have a problem with karma awards, not elementals.)

I mean this without trying to be mean or nasty, but...

You should really read my /entire/ post before replying. Let me re-post
a paragraph from my posting:

-Basically, I've seen a lot of house rules meant to deal with this problem
-and a lot of them are interesting. The biggest problem I've seen, however,
-is that some of the suggestions are money and time-based. And while those
-are admirible constraints for /PC/ mages, they are worthless for /NPC/ mages.
-Hey, you think Renraku or AZT or <insert random corp here> won't blow
-100,000 nuyen to make sure their mage has all the materials and time
-necessary to develop their stable of mondo-elementals? Not likely. Millions
-of nuyen to get someone wired-up to SOTA but an order of magnitude less
-nuyen to get a fraggin' astral army per mage? An easy call to make.

So, for the 2nd time, the problem isn't with /PC/ mages (the players),
it's with the /NPC/ mages. For the record, I give slightly higher than
average karma awards per adventure (about 6), however there are NO
KARMA POOLS in my campaign. (They're the work of Satan :-) I don't
like what karma pools do to games and players who know their statistical
"invulnerability" when they have karma pools available. They create far
more problems than they fix. But that's a really big digression - let
me get back to the elementals.

My players don't have karma pools to re-roll and get mongo elementals. In
fact, I /don't/ have an elemental problem with my players. Never have and,
likely, never will. The "hard" 24 hr house rule is to keep the NPC MAGES
from running amok.

>With a conjuring skill of 6 you can't statistically get an elemental
>above a reasonable force with any amount of services, unless you use
>centering or burn karma. Even if you do use centering, a centering
>skill of 6 will only yield a maximum of three successes. Again, this is
>not statistically probable. Take into consideration that a failure when
>attempting to conjure costs them a ton of NY and several hours for
>nothing, most characters will think twice before attempting to conjure
>something beyond their means.

Agree with the math. However, the key flaw in the rules, as written, is
that there is NO TIME LIMIT for those services to expire as long as
you leave your elementals "out there". While it is likely than any single
summoning attempt will go <fizzle> when fishing for a force 10 (or 8, or
whatever) elemental, it is CERTAIN that, eventually, a great roll will
be made. And since you can store these things forever, under the rules,
that means - in some amount of time, any mage WILL ABSOLUTELY AND CERTAINLY
(unless they are stupid) have a stable of big-ass elementals. It's
mathematically inevitable.

Now, you cited PC fixes regarding karma etc. Like I said, PC's aren't
the problem. It's the damned NPC mages who have the enormous backing of
their corp and plenty of time to create their stable under the protection
of their corp who pose the problem. Unless you create, yet more, random
constraints and restrictions to explain why these NPC corp mages DON'T
have these stables of enormous elementals at the ready, it's just offensive
to common sense. Sooner or later, players ask "gee, why don't they do this?
Sure is stupid of them...". I /hate/ having ill-thought out worlds. This
elemental "loophole" just screams imbalance. (This doesn't even get into
balance issues of shamans vs. mages if all is as the rulebooks say....)

Again, all of this is IMHO, but I've just got to believe that a simple
fix is better than all of the machinations with house rules on LOS to
elementals, materials cost and availability, free spirits, etc. ad nauseum.
I never had to come up with those because the simple fix nips it in the
bud.

My /personal/ feel for elementals is that - they're cool, but I would /never/
want them to dominate a game - or even be a particularly important part
of one. They're a neat tool, but except for simple stuff, they will never
get the job done by themselves.

- Brett

From:	Ashelock <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:44:22 -0005

Message no. 29 On 28 Jan 97 at 16:19, Technomancer wrote:

> I have a new? question to pose to the list:
> How can you balance the game for a mage with 8+ force elementals at his
> call? Sure they have only 1 or 2 services each, but a force 10 elemental
Trickery is your best bet. I've dealt with this as a GM, and also been a
player using this tactic. It's not a bad idea really, but it has it's
faults. Perhaps the biggest problem is the low number of services. Use
them at the wrong time and you've wasted an expensive elemental and a huge
advantage. On the other hand, if you get so paranoid you don't use it,
what's the point in having it. Try to create that situation for the
player, put them in the tough spot of having to decide when to use and
when not to use such a valuable asset, and make it a tough call.
If you just want to whittle them down, give them an intelligent opponent.
Have this opponent either do some conjuring or hire a couple of conjuring
adepts to whip up a batch of lesser elementals of the opposite types.
It's a simple but effective method of reduction.
Finally, give your mage something to deal with that cannot be solved by
shooting it, burning it or blowing it up. Elementals are great in combat,
lousy at solving puzzles, riddles and ordering pizza.

> with one service is still a force 10 elemental. Also, how difficult would
> it be for a mage to find a place where he can inscribe a summoning circle
> for force 10 elementals and summon a total of 32 force points worth?
That can be a tough one or an easy one depending on the GM. Most
summonings of that type have to be done outdoors, unless you have a
warehouse handy. Bad weather can play havoc with a conjuring... half way
through and it's starts pouring down rain... (pays to watch those weather
reports... also pays not to annoy a shaman with storm spirits). A good
solid bribe to a local gang can go a long way to making sure you aren't
interrupted while performing the summoning. In fact, that bribe might be
a favour owed or some such which can lead to an adventure in itself.
(Maybe the gang wants the mage to use those elementals to help deal with a
rival gang, oops... that uses up services too ;).

> (They are 32 hours and he has a spell lock, so he doesn't get drained.)
I don't see how a spell lock will help you. All a spell lock does is
maintian a spell without the mage having to concentrate. And there isn't
an "resist fatigue" spell, AFAIK. That mage had better be prepared to
work at this, one elemental per day... for several days.

> Also also, his charisma +3 lock helps with the drain?
Yes... the boost in charisma will help. As would a spirit focus.
--

Ashelock
mailto: woneal@*******.net

"They say it's a brave new world we're building. I say they're right,
and we'll all have to be pretty brave to live in it."

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:48:58 -0500

Message no. 30 >Have someone tackle or hit the mage, using the knockdown rules or GMs
>prerogative, spinning the mage so he can't see the elemental. Then check
>out the LOS restrictions on elementals.

I was wondering about this...I took it to mean (in this case) that the
ELEMENTALS had to be able to see the mage. But what does happen when he
steps around a corner? They go to never-never land? Come crashing through
the wall?

-=SwiftOne=-

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:49:03 -0500

Message no. 31 >>Sure they have only 1 or 2 services each, but a force 10 elemental with
>>one service is still a force 10 elemental.

>Since it takes so long to summon a high force elemental, and they won't last
>too long, they require to planning and foresight. One or two services and
>they are gone. One or two days and they are gone.

False. Almost. One or two days that it is "hanging around, or even
performing a service." If sent off (to Standby), it doesn't use services to
stick around. On the other hand it takes a Complex action to bring it
back...and that's before you command it.

>>Also, how difficult would it be for a mage to find a place where he can
>>inscribe a summoning circle for force 10 elementals and summon a total of
>>32 force points worth? (They are 32 hours and he has a spell lock, so he
>>doesn't get drained.)
>
>after 32 hours, the first elemental he summoned will probably be gone. And
>doesn't the mage sleep?

See above. Agree about sleep, but presumably he naps in between summonings.

However, another point we've neglected is the source...the materials are
seperate from the source. You need either:
Fire: A large bonfire
Water: a large amount of water
Earth: A man-sized pile of dirt
Air: burning incense

The Fire and Air immediately increase your chances of discovery if they take
10 hours apiece. Earth is going to require you get it from SOMEWHERE...and
word can then spread...Water shouldn't be too difficult though...

>>Also also, his charisma +3 lock helps with the drain?
>I suppose it would, but sitting around for 32 hours with an active spell
>lock? With the energy of a force 10 conjuring going on for that long? A
>bug may come clear over from Chicago to check that one out!:)

p91, Grimmy "...the circle is an astral barrier only when a mage is within
it, summoning...Astral barriers are opaque..."

So he'd be safe....until he was done, right after the Drain check... :)
Then he'd get to see all those that gathered around him.

I'm _sure_ I saw somewhere that Increase Mental Attribute spells were
worthless for magic...Willpower didn't help Drain, and Charisma didn't help
Conjuring....but I don't know where.....Does anyone else remember this? Is
it a 1st ed holdover?

-=SwiftOne=-

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:10:17 -0500

Message no. 32 >As far as I know, the above is correct - according to the rules. Yes,
>it's /mind-numbingly stupid/, but it's correct according to the printed
>letter of the various rulebooks. (The rule - not what the person is
>saying :-)

It does have it's disadvantages.... Look below.

>The problem is that an enterprising mage with time can, basically, summon
>up the biggest elementals their ability will allow them and keep them
>"on ice" forever. Sure, it may take a complex action to bring them all
>back and, yes, in a firefight, that can be fatal. But that small delay
>is a piddling "drawback" to having a half-dozen monster elementals ready
>at the drop of a hat. (It's not even a real drawback - it just means that
>sometimes the mage won't get to use them if he gets jumped. It's not like
>he's suffering TN modifiers or whatnot while gaining the benefits of this
>arrangement.)

Well, it's better than 1st ed (you could expend force points on an elemental
to get automatic successes...so we'd summon a few force ones, then expend
them for a few force 20's, then expend them to summon a force 100....)

Anyway, realize that:
1) You do have to keep those elementals on Standby, which means you need a
complex action to bring em back, then another Simple one to tell 'em what to
do. And the average mage is pretty slow...

2) and to keep him from summoning the almighty huge ones, if he screws up,
it kills him. Unconcious Mage versus PO'd force 10 Fire elemental?
Lookers-on won't even have a chance to try and save him. Ergo, there are
limits...

Sure, he'll have quite a few Big Mojo boys on his side...but you can get the
upper hand and screw him up good... That is what Shadowrunning is
about....the corps can beat our resources easy...so we use ours smarter.

Basically, I think you need to keep the 24 rule (for PC's) to keep them on
Par with shamans (everyone inmy games goes shamanic...mages require too much
time and money)

'Sides, those elementals are the same in astral space as the equal force
watchers and Nature spirits...
(Not that you can get a Force 10 watcher, but....They can slow them up while
you pummel the mage...)

-=SwiftOne=-

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals -Reply
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:12:36 -0500

Message no. 33 >It is open to interpretation if the mage can send the elemental away
without ever
>using up a service: I have always played that you cannot, but after
re-reading the
>rules just now I think I have to call that a house rule.

p141 SRII: "Sending an elemental away to wherever elemental's go and placing
it on notice for calling ata a later time does not cost a service."

Yup, house rule.

-=SwiftOne=- (who's not nearly as smug as the text makes it appear)

I still want to know how long it takes to summon a watcher!!!

From:	Ashelock <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:15:04 -0005

Message no. 34 On 28 Jan 97 at 14:11, Brett Barksdale wrote:

>
> Agree with the math. However, the key flaw in the rules, as written, is
> that there is NO TIME LIMIT for those services to expire as long as you
> leave your elementals "out there". While it is likely than any single

The operative phrase being "as long as you can leave your elementals..."

> summoning attempt will go <fizzle> when fishing for a force 10 (or 8, or
> whatever) elemental, it is CERTAIN that, eventually, a great roll will be
> made. And since you can store these things forever, under the rules, that
> means - in some amount of time, any mage WILL ABSOLUTELY AND CERTAINLY
> (unless they are stupid) have a stable of big-ass elementals. It's
> mathematically inevitable.
>
Your arguement assumes that said mage is living in a vacuum, in the
absence of any other events. Such isn't the case for either PCs or NPCs.
Security mages have to deal with these pesky "shadowrunners" who keep
trying to break into the site... as well as maintaining astral patrols and
such. Both those requirements preclude "leaving them out there." Before
you say it, yes it's possible that a corp might very well keep a small
cadre of mages in reserve and that such mages could indeed accumulate a
stable of powerful elementals. However, I would point out that such a
cadre would be small and rarely seen. Their services (the mages and their
elementals) would only be called upon for major events (oh dear...
Lofwyr's throwing a tantrum again... <chuckle>). Most PCs would rarely if
ever encounter these "elite" mages and when they do it should be a major
event. And if the PCs are involved in things big enough to cause that
kind of firepower to be rolled out... well... I hope they have a good
DocWagon contract.
That said, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of elementals and
their impact on the game. I've never encountered a problem, either as a
GM or a player with elementals dominating the game. Experience has taught
me as a player that's it's rarely worth the effort to keep more than one
or two high force elementals bound. Most average between Force 4-6.
--

Ashelock
mailto: woneal@*******.net

"They say it's a brave new world we're building. I say they're right,
and we'll all have to be pretty brave to live in it."

From:	Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:39:04 -0800

Message no. 35 >>The problem is that an enterprising mage with time can, basically, summon
>>up the biggest elementals their ability will allow them and keep them
>>"on ice" forever. Sure, it may take a complex action to bring them all
>>back and, yes, in a firefight, that can be fatal. But that small delay
>>is a piddling "drawback" to having a half-dozen monster elementals ready
>>at the drop of a hat. (It's not even a real drawback - it just means that
>>sometimes the mage won't get to use them if he gets jumped. It's not like
>>he's suffering TN modifiers or whatnot while gaining the benefits of this
>>arrangement.)

>Well, it's better than 1st ed (you could expend force points on an elemental
>to get automatic successes...so we'd summon a few force ones, then expend
>them for a few force 20's, then expend them to summon a force 100....)

Before my time. :-) I came in well after SRII was up and going.

>Anyway, realize that:
>1) You do have to keep those elementals on Standby, which means you need a
>complex action to bring em back, then another Simple one to tell 'em what to
>do. And the average mage is pretty slow...

Yes, I addressed that in the paragraph above. My comment still stands -
there's no penalty for the "icing" of elementals. For there to be a
drawback, there has to be some disadvantage that such a mage suffers as
compared to a mage who /isn't/ "icing" elementals off somewhere. The
mage with elementals off somewhere has no disadvantage that Joe Mage (w/o
elementals) doesn't have. It's just that, sometimes (due to slowness),
the prepared mage doesn't get to use his toy. No biggie. Joe Mage doesn't
ever have the /option/ to use big elementals.

>2) and to keep him from summoning the almighty huge ones, if he screws up,
>it kills him. Unconcious Mage versus PO'd force 10 Fire elemental?
>Lookers-on won't even have a chance to try and save him. Ergo, there are
>limits...

I'd be interested in seeing where this rule is. Please cite sourcebook
and page number of this rule. According to the SRII rulebook, anyway, the
only elemental that will ever do this has to be pathetically weak (force 1 or 2)
to fail the roll to keep from just immediately leaving.

>Sure, he'll have quite a few Big Mojo boys on his side...but you can get the
>upper hand and screw him up good... That is what Shadowrunning is
>about....the corps can beat our resources easy...so we use ours smarter.

Well, yes, but it's not that simple.

>Basically, I think you need to keep the 24 rule (for PC's) to keep them on
>Par with shamans (everyone inmy games goes shamanic...mages require too much
>time and money)

Even though I've never played SRI, I have players who have. And the '24'
rule has carried across. I like it. It's the chance for a player to do
something absolutely terrific - without the ability to /demand/ when it
happens (like Karma Pools allow players to do).

>'Sides, those elementals are the same in astral space as the equal force
>watchers and Nature spirits...
>(Not that you can get a Force 10 watcher, but....They can slow them up while
>you pummel the mage...)

Not exactly. They /aren't/ equal force nature spirits. The problem is,
the shaman must summon his spirits "on the fly". While that's great to
be able to do that at any time, the shaman can only really "guarantee"
the appearance of a force 7 spirit. Anything higher, and he risks getting
jack-squat. And the mage, since he had plenty of time to go summon-fail-summon-
fail-summon-fail-summon-YES! /will/ have a force 8-10 elemental. In fact,
he'll have more than one. And that poor shaman will have one, underpowered
(for the situation) spirit. The mage wins that battle every time and twice
on Sunday.

However, I do concede that there are plenty of ways to fight off and deal
with the elementals. That was never my point. My point was (and still is :-)
that the ability to take several attempts at summoning and "shelve the
good ones" gives mages too much of an advantage. It opens up "Pandora's
Box" where, based on the rules, we should have a world with a lot more
powerful spirits ready to go at the drop of a hat at the beck-and-call
of any rich (corp-sponsored) mage. Yuk.

And while I can see /players/ going for shamans all of the time (since it's
easy to bleed off PC nuyen, time, etc.) Those corp-funded mages have no
problem, do they? :-)

- Brett

From:	Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:10:57 -0800

Message no. 36 >>
>> Agree with the math. However, the key flaw in the rules, as written, is
>> that there is NO TIME LIMIT for those services to expire as long as you
>> leave your elementals "out there". While it is likely than any single

> The operative phrase being "as long as you can leave your
elementals..."

Which means....? It's not much of a problem for the mage to deal with.

>> summoning attempt will go <fizzle> when fishing for a force 10 (or 8, or
>> whatever) elemental, it is CERTAIN that, eventually, a great roll will be
>> made. And since you can store these things forever, under the rules, that
>> means - in some amount of time, any mage WILL ABSOLUTELY AND CERTAINLY
>> (unless they are stupid) have a stable of big-ass elementals. It's
>> mathematically inevitable.
>>

>Your arguement assumes that said mage is living in a vacuum, in the
>absence of any other events.

The purest form of the argument assumes that. But unless you are assuming
the absolute opposite - that all mages are constantly dodging gunfire,
falling meteors and other, assorted acts of God - it's going to happen.
The simple fact of being able to save elementals FOREVER means that a
mage (with sufficient nuyen and eventual time - usually NPC mages with corps)
will ALWAYS get to the point of having a stable of big elementals.

It is mathematically guaranteed to happen. That absolute of FOREVER is what
cements the problem.

>Such isn't the case for either PCs or NPCs.
>Security mages have to deal with these pesky "shadowrunners" who keep
>trying to break into the site...

And they get shadow break-ins each and every day/night of their lives?
Doubtful.

>as well as maintaining astral patrols and
>such.

And a employer, seeing the benefits of having powerful elementals at
their disposal, won't arrange for a day a week (or more) for the mage
to summon and store them?
Doubtful.

The problem is that there is ZERO DOWNSIDE to this tactic - as the rules
are written. Corps love zero downsides. So do players, excepct that the
pesky GM usually keeps them running around just enough to keep any one of
them to do this. Even so, unless one has Satan as a GM, any smart mage
player will eventually get the odd day off to try. The thing that keeps
PCs from building up such stables of large elementals is that they
likely get used faster than they can get made. :-)

>Both those requirements preclude "leaving them out there."

Hogwash. :-)

The occassional shadowrun /may/, if mundane resources can't
deal with it, cause them to be used. But, seriously, in a credible game,
just how often can Acme Tech (where the mage works) get hit by shadowrunners?

"gee Bob, that's the sixteenth team to hit us this month..." :-)

And why, oh why, would a mage waste his elementals services by keeping
them "on the clock" during mundane astral security sweeps?

>Before
>you say it, yes it's possible that a corp might very well keep a small
>cadre of mages in reserve and that such mages could indeed accumulate a
>stable of powerful elementals.

Possible? Come on! Only the World's Dumbest Corporation (TM) /wouldn't/
have such a cadre, at the very least.

>However, I would point out that such a cadre would be small and rarely seen.

Upon what do you base this statement? Obviously such elementals would
represent a great asset to the corporation. So, there needs to be a
solid reason why a corp WOULDN'T go for as much as they can get.
Rarely seen I can believe. But small? I gotta hear /reasons/ why they
would be small. If there's no downside, I should think that they'd
push it as much as they could.

What's the downside? Until you can answer that, there's absolutely no
basis for stating that a corp wouldn't go as far as they could with it.
After all, their competitors certainly will.

There are, however, limitations to how far it can go. Offhand, here are
some of them that I see:

(i) mages are sort-of rare (although that one in a hundred number, divided
into /billions/ of people, isn't so small...)

(ii) not every mage is a summonner, much less a great one. Just because /PC's/
all like to start with summoning at 6 doesn't mean that the rest of
the world's mages don't follow some sort-of bell curve when it comes
to summonning ability. In my opinion, this is the most limiting factor
of all.

(iii) corps, especially ones with mundane CEO's, won't really like to make
a certain group of their employees so powerful. It greatly increases
the chances of losing control of them. And control is everything. :-)

>Their services (the mages and their
>elementals) would only be called upon for major events (oh dear...
>Lofwyr's throwing a tantrum again... <chuckle>). Most PCs would rarely if
>ever encounter these "elite" mages and when they do it should be a major
>event. And if the PCs are involved in things big enough to cause that
>kind of firepower to be rolled out... well... I hope they have a good
>DocWagon contract.

You are round-about making my point for me. IF the rules are as stated and
IF the runners ever engage such a corp (which isn't that much of a stretch,
is it? It's gotta happen sooner or later, unless you stick to runs against
McHugh's all the time :-), THEN the runners WILL get toasted because of said
firepower.

THEREFORE, since the runners getting toasted with a high degree of probability
(unless they do something patently stupid) is undesirable, the rules as
stated, MUST BE wrong or unacceptable.

It's the "DocWagon" point, exactly, that leads me to believe that the
"icing"
of elementals forever is a patently stupid rule.

>That said, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of elementals and
>their impact on the game. I've never encountered a problem, either as a
>GM or a player with elementals dominating the game. Experience has taught
>me as a player that's it's rarely worth the effort to keep more than one
>or two high force elementals bound. Most average between Force 4-6.

At no point am I claiming a problem with PC's running amok with elementals.
Any decent GM, just thru running a decently-paced game, should keep mages
short on time, money or both to pull this stunt. But I still haven't
read any rationalization that explains why all of the OTHER mages out
there, especially the corp-sponsored ones, /aren't/ doing it. And doing
it to a larger scale.

I'm not really trying to be a pain-in-the-ass. It's just that I'm
interested in hearing the feedback. I think I'm really looking for
someone to come out and give some solid reasons why this /wouldn't/
be the case. Debates like this do wonders for fleshing out the little-
but-important continuity details every game world should have. In
a fantasy game, you can overlook the "peasant payroll" etc. and get
away with it. But in a techno-cyberpunk-megaeconomic game like SR,
details like this are the /lifeblood/ of the gameworld.

Again, all IMHO, of course. :-)

- Brett

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:14:29 -0500

Message no. 37 >Before my time. :-) I came in well after SRII was up and going.

I hereby dub thee "Youngin'". :)

>>1) You do have to keep those elementals on Standby, which means you need a
>>complex action to bring em back, then another Simple one to tell 'em what to
>>do. And the average mage is pretty slow...
>
>Yes, I addressed that in the paragraph above. My comment still stands -
>there's no penalty for the "icing" of elementals. For there to be a
>drawback, there has to be some disadvantage that such a mage suffers as
>compared to a mage who /isn't/ "icing" elementals off somewhere. The
>mage with elementals off somewhere has no disadvantage that Joe Mage (w/o
>elementals) doesn't have. It's just that, sometimes (due to slowness),
>the prepared mage doesn't get to use his toy. No biggie. Joe Mage doesn't
>ever have the /option/ to use big elementals.

So you're saying that because they have more time and money, they are always
better prepared? Sounds like just about everything else...I guess I just
don't understand the problem. The Elementals AREN'T too powerful...It just
is more powerful than Joe Mage? HECK YEAH! That's where the challenge
comes from. But let's continue:

>>2) and to keep him from summoning the almighty huge ones, if he screws up,
>>it kills him. Unconcious Mage versus PO'd force 10 Fire elemental?
>>Lookers-on won't even have a chance to try and save him. Ergo, there are
>>limits...
>I'd be interested in seeing where this rule is. Please cite sourcebook
>and page number of this rule. According to the SRII rulebook, anyway, the
>only elemental that will ever do this has to be pathetically weak (force 1
or 2)
>to fail the roll to keep from just immediately leaving.

True, the SRII book merely says they run...but in GRIMMY, they become
free...and can realize that
they can off their summoner AND getaway. Or come back for vengeance, or
anything....Plus, even at bad odds, it is quite possible for a Force 10 NOT
to make a target number 4. Especially since you are talking about it being
done often. I'm saying it isn't worth the risk to the mage.

>>Sure, he'll have quite a few Big Mojo boys on his side...but you can get the
>>upper hand and screw him up good... That is what Shadowrunning is
>>about....the corps can beat our resources easy...so we use ours smarter.
>
>Well, yes, but it's not that simple.

I'm not saying it's simple. I'm just saying the runners have to think it
through....what part of that statement is false?

>>Basically, I think you need to keep the 24 rule (for PC's) to keep them on

>Even though I've never played SRI, I have players who have. And the '24'
>rule has carried across. I like it. It's the chance for a player to do
>something absolutely terrific - without the ability to /demand/ when it
>happens (like Karma Pools allow players to do).

um....I just don't understand here. I was refering to keeping the normal
"24 hour unless 'out there'" rule for elementals....where does it prevent
"the chance for a player to do something absolutely terrific - without the
ability to /demand/ when it happens"?

>fail-summon-fail-summon-YES! /will/ have a force 8-10 elemental. In fact,
>he'll have more than one. And that poor shaman will have one, underpowered
>(for the situation) spirit. The mage wins that battle every time and twice
>on Sunday.

Which is why you shouldn't get in those battles. A direct fight against a
corp means YOU LOSE. PERIOD. It's intentional that they have more time and
resources. Life isn't always fair. SR is balanced, but still realistic
about that.

>However, I do concede that there are plenty of ways to fight off and deal
>with the elementals. That was never my point. My point was (and still is :-)

Right. You can kick those Elemental tushies. Or just Geek the mage. And
so your point is....

>that the ability to take several attempts at summoning and "shelve the
>good ones" gives mages too much of an advantage. It opens up "Pandora's

Why? All it says is that time and resources mean something. In my game,
everyone takes shamans (that's magical) because the other benefits outweigh
that whole ability to "shelve".

>Box" where, based on the rules, we should have a world with a lot more
>powerful spirits ready to go at the drop of a hat at the beck-and-call
>of any rich (corp-sponsored) mage. Yuk.

99% of the population is Mundane. drop the shamans (we'll figure 50%).
Drop those just not good enough, or not dedicated enough to do this. Drop
the sorcerers and enchanters and phys ads and astral adepts. Now take a
Corp that IS aware enough of magic (they are a little leery...). Add in
that Matrix intrusion is far more common , and thus deserving of more money.
And that those high power elementals ARE expensive, and Sammies have a
tendancy to cut them up anyway...and think about the cheaper cost of a few
dobermans, some electronic alarms, and some hire-out security service, or
maybe legions of cheap, unaugmented guards.

Also, why is your mage doing this? His services are at a premium in the
market, for just the above reasons. He'll cost a lot more that a mere
100,000 nuyen of conjuring materials. And if this corp won't pay, why then
Corp B is starting to look pretty attractive...

In the end, your High force, shelved elementals exist. But they are far
from common. Where they exist (Zero-zero zones) they are too be expected.
Along with other levels of incredably nasty security. Heck, they'll be the
EASY part.

Meanwhile, the Shamans do the Great Ghost Dance......

>And while I can see /players/ going for shamans all of the time (since it's
>easy to bleed off PC nuyen, time, etc.) Those corp-funded mages have no
>problem, do they? :-)

I'd be a shaman even without the risk of time and nuyen loss. So would a
large amount of the SR population.

-=SwiftOne=-

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:34:17 -0500

Message no. 38 >>as well as maintaining astral patrols and
>>such.
>
>And a employer, seeing the benefits of having powerful elementals at
>their disposal, won't arrange for a day a week (or more) for the mage
>to summon and store them?
>Doubtful.

Okay, so they see these great benefits....which are?

>The problem is that there is ZERO DOWNSIDE to this tactic - as the rules
>are written. Corps love zero downsides. So do players, excepct that the
>pesky GM usually keeps them running around just enough to keep any one of

the downside is that the mage can't be doing anything else during his
expensive time, and they'll want to see the Upside giving up that time, and...

>The occassional shadowrun /may/, if mundane resources can't
>deal with it, cause them to be used. But, seriously, in a credible game,
>just how often can Acme Tech (where the mage works) get hit by shadowrunners?
>
>"gee Bob, that's the sixteenth team to hit us this month..." :-)

How often does Acme Tech have a mage of sufficeient caliber?

>Possible? Come on! Only the World's Dumbest Corporation (TM) /wouldn't/
>have such a cadre, at the very least.

No, only WDC(TM) wouldn't WANT them. FEW can afford them.

>>However, I would point out that such a cadre would be small and rarely seen.
>
>Upon what do you base this statement? Obviously such elementals would
>represent a great asset to the corporation. So, there needs to be a

What's the asset? Have a big guy that melts all your office equipment and
then get's offed by a willful dwarf?
Oh yeah, and since the Mage is there (otherwise the elemental isn't
attacking) he get's geeked in the process, losing all the future benfits he
provides, and upping the insurance rates of the other mages this company can
afford....All this for the "rare" shadowrun done against Acme.

>solid reason why a corp WOULDN'T go for as much as they can get.
>Rarely seen I can believe. But small? I gotta hear /reasons/ why they
>would be small. If there's no downside, I should think that they'd
>push it as much as they could.

1)Because mages are rare
2)because talented mages are rarer.
3)because there are LOTS of things for them to do
4) You obviously haven't read the Dilbert Principle. :)

>(i) mages are sort-of rare (although that one in a hundred number, divided
> into /billions/ of people, isn't so small...)

Oh, you saw this.. Opps. But add in the rarity of talent, and their wages,
and the fact that a mage is human, and is likely going to want to research
something HE wants, and not be on call to monitor the site 4 hours a night
against "rare" break in attempts...

>(ii) not every mage is a summonner, much less a great one. Just because /PC's/
> all like to start with summoning at 6 doesn't mean that the rest of
> the world's mages don't follow some sort-of bell curve when it comes
> to summonning ability. In my opinion, this is the most limiting factor
> of all.

Well, you are complete. I feel dumb.

>(iii) corps, especially ones with mundane CEO's, won't really like to make
> a certain group of their employees so powerful. It greatly increases
> the chances of losing control of them. And control is everything. :-)

I didn't mention this one, but I thought of it too.

>You are round-about making my point for me. IF the rules are as stated and
>IF the runners ever engage such a corp (which isn't that much of a stretch,
>is it? It's gotta happen sooner or later, unless you stick to runs against
>McHugh's all the time :-), THEN the runners WILL get toasted because of said
>firepower.

NO. because the runners WILL KNOW that where they are going is among the
top notch of security, and will plan ahead. You yourself said that it
wasn't too difficult to defeat the elementals. That wasn't your point.

>THEREFORE, since the runners getting toasted with a high degree of probability
>(unless they do something patently stupid) is undesirable, the rules as
>stated, MUST BE wrong or unacceptable.

Where's the high probability? We're talking about a defeatable defense (the
elementals) in rare locations.>

>I'm not really trying to be a pain-in-the-ass. It's just that I'm
>interested in hearing the feedback. I think I'm really looking for

I don't think you are. Your comments show you consider everything we've
said...(better than I did :) ) I just think you don't consider some of the
elements (the risk of free elementals, for one) as large as we do (the risk
to the mage is two, and the price and value of the mages service is three)

>away with it. But in a techno-cyberpunk-megaeconomic game like SR,
>details like this are the /lifeblood/ of the gameworld.

As I said, time and resources DO count, in RL and in SR.

-=SwiftOne=-

From:	Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:44:16 -0800

Message no. 39 On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Denzil Kruse wrote:

> >That's a mis-interpretation of the rule. The rule is that you can summon
> >your elemental and not give it an order at that time...it just sorta hangs
> >around until you give it an order - it's on stand-by. For every 24 hours
> >on "stand-by" it looses one service. If you conjure an elemental and
> >never give it orders, it could remain bound for years.
>
> How can it remain bound for years if every day it uses up a service. Every
> day one of two things will happen: it will be called from stand-by (service
> spent) or it won't be called from stand-by (service spent). Isn't that
> right?
>
> Denzil Kruse
> d.kruse@****.com
>

No, that's what I was saying. Having it sit around _not_ "On-call" or
"stand-by" doesn't cost services. The only time that it uses up a service
every 24 hours is when you have it hang around you waiting for you to give
it an order. You can conjure it and let it go back to where ever they go,
then summon it (taking a complex action) and give it an order, OR you
can summon it and then wait (costs 1 service per 24 hours of wait-time).
The latter simply lets you have access to the spirit instantly with out
having to take the time to call it. (This also means that it's astrally
manifested and following you around...which can be hazardous.)

~Tim

From:	Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:59:46 -0800

Message no. 40 >>Before my time. :-) I came in well after SRII was up and going.

>I hereby dub thee "Youngin'". :)

Cool. I've needed a nickname here for a while... :-)

>>Yes, I addressed that in the paragraph above. My comment still stands -
>>there's no penalty for the "icing" of elementals. For there to be a
>>drawback, there has to be some disadvantage that such a mage suffers as
>>compared to a mage who /isn't/ "icing" elementals off somewhere. The
>>mage with elementals off somewhere has no disadvantage that Joe Mage (w/o
>>elementals) doesn't have. It's just that, sometimes (due to slowness),
>>the prepared mage doesn't get to use his toy. No biggie. Joe Mage doesn't
>>ever have the /option/ to use big elementals.

>So you're saying that because they have more time and money, they are always
>better prepared? Sounds like just about everything else...I guess I just
>don't understand the problem.

Of course the time and money should make them better prepared. But it
shouldn't give them /that/ type of wallop. I mean, we're not talking about
level 10 initiates here. Any corp mage who receives the training to
summon to a decent level can do this. And we're not talking about "the
bad guys have better cyber than the PCs cause the corp can afford it".
That's just an advantage. Saying "the bad mages get 50-60 force levels
worth of elemental wallop for EACH mage" isn't just an advantage - it's
a FATAL advantage - fatal to the PC runners.

This sort-of borders on the "omniscient/omnipotent corp" problem. You
can't make the corp THAT good. It places the runners in the position of
making perfect stealth rolls and never engaging serious corp juju or
being DEAD. Now, it may make sense for the corps to have that advantage.
But who wants to play in a game where taking on a run against a corp means
near auto-death if the mages find you?

Sure, runs against remote (low/no juju defense_) corp holdings are fun
and a good part of any SR game. But sooner or later, you're going to
play with the big boys. And then they are all going to die if the
corp mages have that much advantage in the elemental realm.

> The Elementals AREN'T too powerful...It just
>is more powerful than Joe Mage? HECK YEAH! That's where the challenge
>comes from. But let's continue:

Yes, but we seem to disagree on /scale/. Eight to ten force levels of elemental
for a PC mage (say, two force 4-6 elementals) and FIFTY force levels of elemental
for one of these NPC summonners. That's not a challenge. That's a slaughter.
Again, this isn't a level 10 corp initiate mage. It's any corp mage with time
and funding and proper summoning training - the majority of them, I should
think.

Now, there's nothing wrong with writing a /specific/ adventure involving having
to duck and run around that kind of firepower. (Inevitable, I should think ;-)
But, you can't have that be the NORM. It should be a big aberation. And,
with the "icing" of elementals, it's should be the NORM.

>>I'd be interested in seeing where this rule is. Please cite sourcebook
>>and page number of this rule. According to the SRII rulebook, anyway, the
>>only elemental that will ever do this has to be pathetically weak (force 1
>or 2)
>>to fail the roll to keep from just immediately leaving.

>True, the SRII book merely says they run...but in GRIMMY, they become
>free...and can realize that
>they can off their summoner AND getaway. Or come back for vengeance, or
>anything....Plus, even at bad odds, it is quite possible for a Force 10 NOT
>to make a target number 4. Especially since you are talking about it being
>done often. I'm saying it isn't worth the risk to the mage.

Cool. I'll look at that. One would think that the basic SRII rulebook would
cover that a bit... :-)

However, corp mages rarely work alone. A corp mage team should be able to
handkle the summonning of force 8-10 elementals and beat one back if the
summoner goes nite-nite from drain.

>>>Sure, he'll have quite a few Big Mojo boys on his side...but you can get the
>>>upper hand and screw him up good... That is what Shadowrunning is
>>>about....the corps can beat our resources easy...so we use ours smarter.
>>
>>Well, yes, but it's not that simple.

>I'm not saying it's simple. I'm just saying the runners have to think it
>through....what part of that statement is false?

No part of it is false. Again, it's a /scale/ issue. You can only outthink
your way thru so much tactical disadvantage. At some point, even a
god-like tactician gets overwhelmed by sheer inferiority of forces.
Fifty to ten is too much.

>>>>Basically, I think you need to keep the 24 rule (for PC's) to keep them on

>>Even though I've never played SRI, I have players who have. And the '24'
>>rule has carried across. I like it. It's the chance for a player to do
>>something absolutely terrific - without the ability to /demand/ when it
>>happens (like Karma Pools allow players to do).

>um....I just don't understand here. I was refering to keeping the normal
>"24 hour unless 'out there'" rule for elementals....where does it prevent
>"the chance for a player to do something absolutely terrific - without the
>ability to /demand/ when it happens"?

Sorry. My bad. I was thinking that you were referring to the "rule of 24"
from SRI. (Where rolling a 24 was an automatic success.)

>>fail-summon-fail-summon-YES! /will/ have a force 8-10 elemental. In fact,
>>he'll have more than one. And that poor shaman will have one, underpowered
>>(for the situation) spirit. The mage wins that battle every time and twice
>>on Sunday.

>Which is why you shouldn't get in those battles. A direct fight against a
>corp means YOU LOSE. PERIOD. It's intentional that they have more time and
>resources. Life isn't always fair. SR is balanced, but still realistic
>about that.

What? You've never had your players trip off an alarm? Damn, they
must be good... :-) One never goes looking for direct fights against
corps, but it's inevitable that one will get involved in one.

Corp mundane forces are just that - mundane. They have better
armor and cyber and weapons than the runners. But it takes them real
time to go from point A to point B. They can be physically blocked off, etc.
There are ways to delay and negate superior numbers/tech like that. But
what the hell do you do against a 50-to-10 elemental force disadvatage?
All the corp mage(s) do is float astral with their "astral army" and command
them from there. Astral things move fast.

So, if the runners /ever/ run against such a corp and set off an alarm
(my players aren't perfect - are yours? :-), then they die - damn near
automatically - if it is as you say.

One MUST balance reality (corp bigger = dead runners) with an enjoyable
game and a workable premises. "Icing" elementals just leads to way too
many unacceptable outcomes.

>>However, I do concede that there are plenty of ways to fight off and deal
>>with the elementals. That was never my point. My point was (and still is :-)

>Right. You can kick those Elemental tushies. Or just Geek the mage. And
>so your point is....

I said it was POSSIBLE. I didn't say likely. All you have to do to geek
the mage is get past his 40-50 force points of elementals. No biggie.
Oh yeah, you set off an alarm (else the mage wouldn't be there with the
elite magical defense). So, the mage is miles away and is guiding his
elementals astrally. Now, what do your runners do?

>>that the ability to take several attempts at summoning and "shelve the
>>good ones" gives mages too much of an advantage. It opens up "Pandora's

>Why? All it says is that time and resources mean something. In my game,
>everyone takes shamans (that's magical) because the other benefits outweigh
>that whole ability to "shelve".

Again, SCALE is the issue here. Yes, corps should have an advantage. But,
no, it should not be that big. Else, if you play your NPCs even reasonably
smart, the runners are history. End of story.

>>Box" where, based on the rules, we should have a world with a lot more
>>powerful spirits ready to go at the drop of a hat at the beck-and-call
>>of any rich (corp-sponsored) mage. Yuk.

>99% of the population is Mundane. drop the shamans (we'll figure 50%).
>Drop those just not good enough, or not dedicated enough to do this. Drop
>the sorcerers and enchanters and phys ads and astral adepts. Now take a
>Corp that IS aware enough of magic (they are a little leery...).

All good points (except the leery part). They may be leery, but they
use it all just as well. After all, their competitors will. :-)
I talked about these limiting factors in a post that didn't get out
before you wrote this. They are, as far as I can see, the ONLY rational
things limiting the problem. But it's an insufficient limit.

>Add in
>that Matrix intrusion is far more common , and thus deserving of more money.
>And that those high power elementals ARE expensive, and Sammies have a

Uh, force 10 elemental = 10,000 nuyen per attempts. At ONE HUNDRED attempts,
that's only 1 million. Take a lot at sammy's cybercosts and surgery costs
and therapy for that MoveByWire 4.0. It's /very/ cost effective and offers
tactical elements sammy could never offer.

>tendancy to cut them up anyway...and think about the cheaper cost of a few
>dobermans, some electronic alarms, and some hire-out security service, or
>maybe legions of cheap, unaugmented guards.

And those elements all have their place. But the cost of the big elementals
isn't hardly prohibitive. They will have all those defenses AND the
big elementals.

>Also, why is your mage doing this? His services are at a premium in the
>market, for just the above reasons. He'll cost a lot more that a mere
>100,000 nuyen of conjuring materials. And if this corp won't pay, why then
>Corp B is starting to look pretty attractive...

Yes, but were talking about the difference between the cost of keeping mage
X (salary, etc.) and the cost of keeping mage AND summonning funds. Since
the corp is keeping mage X around ANYWAY, we're only concerned with the
/additional/ funds necessary. That would be extra security to make up for
when the mage is summoning (or learning summoning) and not on active
security detail. Oh yeah, and summoning materials.

>In the end, your High force, shelved elementals exist. But they are far
>from common. Where they exist (Zero-zero zones) they are too be expected.
>Along with other levels of incredably nasty security. Heck, they'll be the
>EASY part.

But it doesn't /have/ to be zero-zero zones. It's not /that/ expensive. Plus,
astral mages and their Astral Armies (TM) are /extremely/ mobile. All it
takes is one good alarm and any "worthy" corp holding and it's goodbye
runners.

>Meanwhile, the Shamans do the Great Ghost Dance......

Not anymore, they don't. ;-)

>>And while I can see /players/ going for shamans all of the time (since it's
>>easy to bleed off PC nuyen, time, etc.) Those corp-funded mages have no
>>problem, do they? :-)

>I'd be a shaman even without the risk of time and nuyen loss. So would a
>large amount of the SR population.

Probably. But since they don't get to choose...

- Brett "youngin" Barksdale

P.S. Keep it going. These discussions give me more insight on corp internal
economics than that SR Book on corp economics did. :-)

From:	Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:00:48 -0800

Message no. 41 Oops. Gotta run. I'll be happy to respond to the new elemental
postings tomorrow....

- Brett

From:	Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals -Reply
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:04:05 -0800

Message no. 42 On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Brett Borger wrote:

>
> -=SwiftOne=- (who's not nearly as smug as the text makes it appear)
>
> I still want to know how long it takes to summon a watcher!!!
>

AFAIK it takes a complex action. Whether that was just a house rule
because it never explicitly SAYS how long or something I read somewhere
else I don't remember.

~Tim

From:	Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:26:03 -0800

Message no. 43 On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Brett Barksdale wrote:

[snip a whole lot]

> >'Sides, those elementals are the same in astral space as the equal force
> >watchers and Nature spirits...
> >(Not that you can get a Force 10 watcher, but....They can slow them up while
> >you pummel the mage...)
>
> Not exactly. They /aren't/ equal force nature spirits. The problem is,
> the shaman must summon his spirits "on the fly". While that's great to
> be able to do that at any time, the shaman can only really "guarantee"
> the appearance of a force 7 spirit. Anything higher, and he risks getting
> jack-squat. And the mage, since he had plenty of time to go summon-fail-summon-
> fail-summon-fail-summon-YES! /will/ have a force 8-10 elemental. In fact,
> he'll have more than one. And that poor shaman will have one, underpowered
> (for the situation) spirit. The mage wins that battle every time and twice
> on Sunday.

Equal force? Well for one, spirits and elementals are two completely
different things. Nearly all spirits are more geared toward subtle,
clandestine operations...while elementals are pretty much front-line
units. Look at the powers. I wouldn't expect you to pull up a hearth
spirit and have it trash a strike team (although it _could_ if used
correctly), and I also wouldn't expect the elemental to be much help in
more sneaky situations.

Summoning?
Yes, but remember that each attempt costs 8-10,000 nuyen and takes 8-10
hours. That's not something that you just casually do repeatedly with out
taking some sort of break. Hell I know how tired I am after spending about
10 hours just sitting in class at school, let alone doing something that
required complete focused concentration. Not to mention the potential
drain for the failed attempts.

In all the mages I've played, sitting around all week trying to summon the
mother of all elementals was not something I did. I'd have missed too
much. They did have lives you know. In the end, so you manage to have a
few "1-shot" elementals, not much in the way of reliability and sustained
support. After the first service it's gone and you have to spend 10 more
hours and 10,000 more nuyen to try to get it back for another cameo
appearance.

>
> However, I do concede that there are plenty of ways to fight off and deal
> with the elementals. That was never my point. My point was (and still is :-)
> that the ability to take several attempts at summoning and "shelve the
> good ones" gives mages too much of an advantage. It opens up "Pandora's
> Box" where, based on the rules, we should have a world with a lot more
> powerful spirits ready to go at the drop of a hat at the beck-and-call
> of any rich (corp-sponsored) mage. Yuk.
>
> And while I can see /players/ going for shamans all of the time (since it's
> easy to bleed off PC nuyen, time, etc.) Those corp-funded mages have no
> problem, do they? :-)

Other than trying to justify to managment why you just wasted 10 hours of
company time to create something that will only serve a purpose once.
When you could have just as easily (easier actually) created several that
would be far more versitile.

>
> - Brett
>

~Tim

From:	Eric Hall <esh7695@******.SDSMT.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:46:11 +0000

Message no. 44 Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU> wrote:
[SNIP stuff about corp mages with a drekload of elementals
> What's the downside? Until you can answer that, there's absolutely no
> basis for stating that a corp wouldn't go as far as they could with it.
> After all, their competitors certainly will.
>
> There are, however, limitations to how far it can go.

Yup, there sure are :-). The downside is that it can be downright
dangerous to summon high force elementals. Say your average corp
wage mage conjurer-type has a Charisma and Conjuring of 6 each (when
you care enough to buy the very best...). Thats probably pretty
exceptional, but it will illustrate my point. If the mage trys to
summon anything with a force higher than 6, he takes PHYSICAL damage
from Drain. If he goes for a force higher than 12, we're talking
Deadly physical damage.

I don't know about you, but I can think of a lot of things I'd rather
do than come to work and worry about Drain of 10S physical.
Renraku Mage: "So I can either conjure up a force 10 Fire Elemental
or cast Fashion on the CEO before his meeting?"

I think the answer is obvious. BTW, note that the majority of mages
don't have a conjuring or Charisma of 6. I think its a lot more
reasonable to expect corps to keep a stable of 3-5 force elementals,
with the occasional force 7 or 8 elemental for when runners try to
blow up the Arcology.

Aztech Blood mages, on the other hand.... <Insert big evil GM type
grin here.>
----------------------------------------------
Eric Hall esh7695@******.sdsmt.edu
The Razor's Edge, Gear For Shadowrunners:
http://www.mcs.sdsmt.edu/~ehall/shadowrun/razor.html

From:	Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Wed, 29 Jan 1997 12:22:46 +1100

Message no. 45 At 04:19 PM 28/01/97 +0200, Technomancer wrote:
>I have a new? question to pose to the list:
>How can you balance the game for a mage with 8+ force elementals at his
>call?
>Sure they have only 1 or 2 services each, but a force 10 elemental with
>one service is still a force 10 elemental.
>Also, how difficult would it be for a mage to find a place where he can
>inscribe a summoning circle for force 10 elementals and summon a total of
>32 force points worth? (They are 32 hours and he has a spell lock, so he
>doesn't get drained.)
>Also also, his charisma +3 lock helps with the drain?

Such high powered elementals will almost certainly be smarter and
stronger-willed than the mage and will surely be resisting their
binding/slavery. Have the mage constantly making a control test each time
he calls forth or commands an elemental. Something like the ally spirit
control test ie. an opposed test of the mage's conjuring + charisma vs.
elemental's force. The elemental needs only one net success to go unbound.

The mage will fail every now and then, at which point he'll have a
disagreeable F10 ex-slave on his hands - probably in the middle of a 'run
where he can ill afford the complication.

Chris

_______________________________________________________________
Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.

From:	L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:58:35 EST

Message no. 46 On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:08:34 +0000 Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
writes:
>|>Also also, his charisma +3 lock helps with the drain?
>|
>|No. I'm not sure where it says this, but I'm very sure it doesn't.
>
>I think it does... After all, improve Willpower helps in
>spellcasting....
It does? Could you give a specific reference for this (I'd like to know
so I can check...)

Canthros
--
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

From:	L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:58:35 EST

Message no. 47 On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:34:00 MST Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
writes:
>>That's a mis-interpretation of the rule. The rule is that you can
>summon
>>your elemental and not give it an order at that time...it just sorta
>hangs
>>around until you give it an order - it's on stand-by. For every 24
>hours
>>on "stand-by" it looses one service. If you conjure an elemental and
>>never give it orders, it could remain bound for years.
>
>How can it remain bound for years if every day it uses up a service.
>Every
>day one of two things will happen: it will be called from stand-by
>(service
>spent) or it won't be called from stand-by (service spent). Isn't
>that
>right?

Because, Denzil, the spirit doesn't always remain on "stand-by". Re-read
the section on elemental spirits and you should note that there is
something about the fact that the spirit departs to who-knows-where (aka
the metaplanes:) when the spirit is dismissed (not summoned or being
commanded). Don't have a page ref again, but I don't have a book. If I'm
wrong, feel free to thwap me, 'cause I'll certainly deserve it:)

Canthros
--
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

From:	L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:58:36 EST

Message no. 48 On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:29:21 GMT Mark Steedman
<M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk> writes:
>Technomancer writes
>
>> I have a new? question to pose to the list:
>> How can you balance the game for a mage with 8+ force elementals at
>his
>> call?
>Don't pay him too much for runs, if one of these things costs half
>his pay he will be very loathe to use them.
>

Or make it hard to get. Make him enchant his own. There are other ways,
after all. Besides, think about what kind of astral drek he'd be
attracting while doing that!!

>> Sure they have only 1 or 2 services each, but a force 10 elemental
>with
>> one service is still a force 10 elemental.
>Which has exactly zero armour against damaging manipulations, weapon
>foci and the 'TROLL with muscle AUG 4 and a ranger arms compund bow
>:)', have a read at manifetation, p142 SR2, twang! incoming 18M
>smartgun, oh i need 2's so i only roll willpower big deal, yes come
>on elemental roll an 18 i dare you! SPLAT!!!!!!!

Actually I think that Manifest spirits receive Force*2 against ranged
weapons that are not muscle-powered, i.e. firearms, and Force (maybe 1/2
Force) against muscle-powered ranged attacks, things like throwing
weapons and bows. So, he's only got to roll an 8...much easier if you ask
me. I don't know for sure about this, though, but that seems to be how I
remember reading it. Or that could be a house rule...(resulting, in this
case, from a misreading of the rules somewhere <sheepish grin>)

>
>Don't you just love the street sams catalogue! i was reasearching how
>to kill big bugs, spray your arrows with lots of insecticide and just
>looks at thos (very big number) S wounds, bow accesory mount,
>smartgun, roll projectile weapons (using vulnerabiltiy), add custom
>weapon, enhanced articl and combat pool and grin as the queen goes
>CRUNCH rappily followed by the GM exploding as the rest die of lack
>of queen :)
>Small mercies my players have yet to find this.

Yeah, now you're giving my player ideas:)

>
>> Also, how difficult would it be for a mage to find a place where he
>can
>> inscribe a summoning circle for force 10 elementals and summon a
>total of
>> 32 force points worth? (They are 32 hours and he has a spell lock,
>so he
>> doesn't get drained.)
>about 3 days and the riggers wearhouse :)
>
>If he's kind enough to pick an abandoned one well send in some
>gangers, i think being busy conjouring is 'perciever distracted',
>your concentration is broken by the feel of cold steel at your
>throat, you should only need to do it once. Don't kill him (unless
>he's silly enough to cast a spell in this condition), torture is far
>more fun :)
>
>> Also also, his charisma +3 lock helps with the drain?
>>
>Yes.

uh...I dunno about that. I don't know the official ruling, but it doesn't
seem entirely...um...kosher.

Canthros
--
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

From:	Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:17:39 EST

Message no. 49 On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:19:34 +0200 Technomancer <arvanit@***.UCH.GR>
writes:
>I have a new? question to pose to the list:
>How can you balance the game for a mage with 8+ force elementals at his
>call? Sure they have only 1 or 2 services each, but a force 10 elemental

>with one service is still a force 10 elemental.

Well, if your PC can do it then I imagine that some equal powered
opponant could do it too.

>Also, how difficult would it be for a mage to find a place where he
>can inscribe a summoning circle for force 10 elementals and summon a
total
>of 32 force points worth? (They are 32 hours and he has a spell lock, so
he doesn't >get drained.)
>Also also, his charisma +3 lock helps with the drain?

Consider that a force 10 circle is 13 meters (about 42 ft. across) and
takes 10 hours to inscribe. Depending on your lifestyle that kind of
space isn't easy to come by unless you're renting out a warehouse or
something.

Also what were to happen if some enemy of his happened upon him in the
middle of that 10 hour ritual and decided to ground some nasty spell
through his lock? It could be interesting.

>* Technomancer * Modesty is one of my countless virtues *

~Tim

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals
Date:	Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:35:08 -0500

Message no. 50 <BIG Snip>

>I said it was POSSIBLE. I didn't say likely. All you have to do to geek
>the mage is get past his 40-50 force points of elementals. No biggie.
>Oh yeah, you set off an alarm (else the mage wouldn't be there with the
>elite magical defense). So, the mage is miles away and is guiding his
>elementals astrally. Now, what do your runners do?

Okay the problem seems to boil down too: You think runners hitting a high
sec installation will get cooked because one decent NPC mage can call in 50
force points worth of elementals...So lets go through it:

Well, I must first assume your runners have SOME kind of magical support, or
it may be a lost cause. Here comes big mage boy floating in with his
calvary...Good strategy so far: you've protected his meat bod, and all his
elementals are here, so no time is lost.

My strategies? Depends on the strengths of my team. Believe me, we would
have talked this out. I can scatter my team, since the Elementals need to
be in LOS of the Mage, which means only one room/hallway. But that may not
be the smartest. I'd better have some watchers on hand...If I've got some
good force ones, I might even be able to take one of your elementals down
right off the bat...(assuming I can do so before your mage starts popping
them)

A Spirit Fighter Phys ad (basically, he's got Astral Percep, Killing hands)
would be useful...Little beats Killing hands in Astral space.

But your Elementals are going to have to manifest to get me. Granted, I'll
have to use Willpower to kill you. But impossible? I think not. Say I get
a Nature Spirit to do the whole Confusion thing. Sure, he'll be gone in a
round....but what can I do in that round? Quite a bit. Assume a Sam of the
level this run requires coudl take down another Elemental (Whose Confused,
mind you) before the Nature Spirit goes.

Heck, Just for kicks, (since we've been detected) One of us shoots a
sprinkler. Forget any Fire Elementals.

Now we do an Area effect Mana Spell at your elementals. Sure, it's tough:
target number of ten, need to get more successes than they do. But we've
got Karma and Magic pool. If I recall, the Threat Rating for bound spirits
isn't all that High. Once or twice, and your spirits are in pretty rough
shape.

Hard? You better believe it....looking through it, you better have at least
five runners, at least two of whom can do something on the astral plane. A
sixth running Astral backup would be even better. No one gets through
unscathed. But reasonable? Sure. They are trying to beat top of the line
security here. Personally, I would have tried to find out before hand about
the mage, and had someone nearby with some weaponry near his meat bod. :)

>Again, SCALE is the issue here. Yes, corps should have an advantage. But,
>no, it should not be that big. Else, if you play your NPCs even reasonably
>smart, the runners are history. End of story.

Your runners shouldn't be trying something so hard without being good
enough...at least two magical initiates, with enough Karma to survive a few
rounds....If they play their cards right, their fine. (Say....a decker to
stop the alarm, redirect it, etc...No elementals!)

>>that Matrix intrusion is far more common , and thus deserving of more money.
>>And that those high power elementals ARE expensive, and Sammies have a
>
>Uh, force 10 elemental = 10,000 nuyen per attempts. At ONE HUNDRED attempts,
>that's only 1 million. Take a lot at sammy's cybercosts and surgery costs
>and therapy for that MoveByWire 4.0. It's /very/ cost effective and offers
>tactical elements sammy could never offer.

The Sammie I refered to was Mine :) The corps can just have a dozen
cyber-free jobbies for less than the Elemental OR the Sammie...a few 100,000
as opposed to your Nuyen...And they don't melt the copier defending the
place (at least not often)

>>tendancy to cut them up anyway...and think about the cheaper cost of a few
>>dobermans, some electronic alarms, and some hire-out security service, or
>>maybe legions of cheap, unaugmented guards.
>
>And those elements all have their place. But the cost of the big elementals
>isn't hardly prohibitive. They will have all those defenses AND the
>big elementals.

Not if they think the others are sufficient. "Johnson, about your
figures...Do you really think spending A MILLION NUYUN on this one aspect of
security is worth it? I don't see any changes. Those guards Smith put in
patrol this place every hour, I see them on my coffee break. HIS budget was
only 300,000. Your's is a fine backup plan, I'm sure...but with no recent
security alerts, I'm afraid we can't justify this. How about 100,000? Nice
round figure. Now about those quarterly reports...."

>Yes, but were talking about the difference between the cost of keeping mage
>X (salary, etc.) and the cost of keeping mage AND summonning funds. Since
>the corp is keeping mage X around ANYWAY, we're only concerned with the

And incentive pay to make him go through ten hour rituals, day after day
after day, when his fellow MIT&M graduate at Renraku is researching the
effect of Mana based health spells on the energy output of the paranormal
hummingbird (or some equally fascinating Hermetic thing) But your point is
taken. I was arguing more against the mom and pop stores having this kind
of security.

>But it doesn't /have/ to be zero-zero zones. It's not /that/ expensive. Plus,
>astral mages and their Astral Armies (TM) are /extremely/ mobile. All it
>takes is one good alarm and any "worthy" corp holding and it's goodbye
>runners.

It is THAT rare though. The mobility point is valid...Again, realize that
the average intrusion is physically based, which means manifested
elementals, which means a big mess of the area you're trying to protect.

Personally, I think the ten hour rituals alone would keep your plan from
happening...Take any Skilled, Rare labor pool, and try and force them to do
something extremely undesirable. It won't work, they'll go to someone more
than happy to hire them without requiring them to do it. Remember,
hermetics love discovering the how and whys of things. Doing a ten hour
ritual (you said 100 attempts? Snooze!) over and over only teaches them to
mix Pixie stix with their Mountain Dew to try and feign interest. :)

>P.S. Keep it going. These discussions give me more insight on corp internal
> economics than that SR Book on corp economics did. :-)

Truth.

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 51 Everyone should also keep in mind that, if the corps have a large astral
army, they too can be random victims of attacks from the astral. I mean,
if the corps have 50 force total spirits hangin around then think what that
would look like in the astral.

Message no. 52 >Actually I think that Manifest spirits receive Force*2 against ranged
>weapons that are not muscle-powered, i.e. firearms, and Force (maybe 1/2
>Force) against muscle-powered ranged attacks, things like throwing
>weapons and bows. So, he's only got to roll an 8...much easier if you ask
>me. I don't know for sure about this, though, but that seems to be how I
>remember reading it. Or that could be a house rule...(resulting, in this
>case, from a misreading of the rules somewhere <sheepish grin>)

Force * 2 against Weapons fire....which still doesn't mean too much until
you get to these force levels.

But nothing against any attack directly powered by strength. So: No armor
versus the bow, thrown, or melee.

>>> Also also, his charisma +3 lock helps with the drain?
>>>
>>Yes.
>uh...I dunno about that. I don't know the official ruling, but it doesn't
>seem entirely...um...kosher.
>

Well that's one! Anyone else?

Message no. 53 >Also what were to happen if some enemy of his happened upon him in the
>middle of that 10 hour ritual and decided to ground some nasty spell
>through his lock? It could be interesting.

Well, technically he is INSIDE the astral barrier while conjuring, which
means something would either have to wait or fight through.

Message no. 54 >Everyone should also keep in mind that, if the corps have a large astral
>army, they too can be random victims of attacks from the astral. I mean,
>if the corps have 50 force total spirits hangin around then think what that
>would look like in the astral.

We weren't talking about having them in the astral...they would be off in
never-never land until called for....

...but he does have a point....summoning all these is likely to attract
attention...

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 55 On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:59:46 -0800 Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU>
writes:
>
>>Add in that Matrix intrusion is far more common , and thus deserving of
more >>money.
>>And that those high power elementals ARE expensive, and Sammies have a
>
>Uh, force 10 elemental = 10,000 nuyen per attempts. At ONE HUNDRED
attempts,
>that's only 1 million. Take a lot at sammy's cybercosts and surgery
costs
>and therapy for that MoveByWire 4.0. It's /very/ cost effective and
offers
>tactical elements sammy could never offer.

Except that the 1 Mill. is a one time deal, if the Wally Wage Mage is
making 100 force 10 conjurings (one a day...he does need to sleep..) none
stop, it will take him (barring work on weekends...he is a valued asset
you know) that's 260 days, which is the better part of a year. Now we
assume he's getting just a little above minimum wage...(after all mages
are a rare thing, and ones who can do this kind of high-power, sustained
conjuring are especially rare indeed.)...that all adds up to a nice chunk
of change that WDC (tm) gets billed for. Also consider that while Wally
"Conjure-meister" Wage Mage is spending all of his time in a summoning
circle, how is the corp going to make use of his elementals? Put them
all on guard duty? Send them one at a time out on Remote Service (that
way Wally can keep an ever steady stream of them coming out with out fear
of hitting his max of...lets say he's exceptionally bright...9
elementals)?

[snip]

>>Also, why is your mage doing this? His services are at a premium in
the
>>market, for just the above reasons. He'll cost a lot more that a mere
>>100,000 nuyen of conjuring materials. And if this corp won't pay, why
then
>>Corp B is starting to look pretty attractive...
>
>Yes, but were talking about the difference between the cost of keeping
mage
>X (salary, etc.) and the cost of keeping mage AND summonning funds.
>Since the corp is keeping mage X around ANYWAY, we're only concerned
with
>the /additional/ funds necessary. That would be extra security to make
up for
>when the mage is summoning (or learning summoning) and not on active
>security detail. Oh yeah, and summoning materials.

But like I said above...just having the mage is hellishly expensive, let
alone one who could handle the kind of demands it would take.

>
>>In the end, your High force, shelved elementals exist. But they are
far
>>from common. Where they exist (Zero-zero zones) they are too be
expected.
>>Along with other levels of incredably nasty security. Heck, they'll be
the
>>EASY part.
>
>But it doesn't /have/ to be zero-zero zones. It's not /that/
>expensive. Plus, astral mages and their Astral Armies (TM) are
/extremely/ mobile. All
>it takes is one good alarm and any "worthy" corp holding and it's
goodbye
>runners.

And hello tricky PR problems. Not all the world is complacent with the
arrival of magic, and I doubt the attention that an Astral Army (tm)
would attract would be with out it's head aches.

You don't see many corps with huge, concrete gun towers and heavy tanks
patrolling the branch office grounds. That kind of show-of-force makes
customer's uneasy. Same deal on the astral. Also something that
powerfull can't go around unnoticed, I believe the difficulty of
noticing, on the physical plane, an elemental that is present on the
astral plane is something like (8 - Force), with 2 being the lowest t#.
I don't know about you but I might not like doing business with some
company that has plainly visible shimmering shapes swirling around it's
borders...reminds me of bug city..

[snip]

>- Brett "youngin" Barksdale
>
>P.S. Keep it going. These discussions give me more insight on corp
>internal economics than that SR Book on corp economics did. :-)
>

~Tim

Message no. 56 Denzil Kruse said on 13:34/28 Jan 97...

> How can it remain bound for years if every day it uses up a service. Every
> day one of two things will happen: it will be called from stand-by (service
> spent) or it won't be called from stand-by (service spent). Isn't that
> right?

I find the rules for this a bit vague -- they talk about the elemental
"hanging around" (SRII p.141), but does this mean it is placed on stand-by
in "parts unknown" waiting for the mage to call it, or does it mean the
elemental is in astral or physical space close to the mage but isn't
performing any services? In the former, _any_ elemental would only stick
around for a couple of days, in the latter you could keep them bonded for
years by never calling on them.

Also, you can lengthen the service of a bound elemental, but the rules
for it are almost exactly the same as for summoning a new one (Grimoire
p.65). I would probably (this has never come up when I GMed) make the
ritual easier than conjuring a new spirit, to make the magician keep the
same elementals around for a longer time.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Past Perfect Tense
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 57 Dust said on 9:21/28 Jan 97...

> with one service? After he manifests, he's gone. (manifestation=one
> service)

No. Calling a spirit to you is not a service; the elemental will manifest
if that's required for the service (like setting fire to a building), but
it won't cost a second service.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Past Perfect Tense
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 58 >Yup, there sure are :-). The downside is that it can be downright
>dangerous to summon high force elementals. Say your average corp
>wage mage conjurer-type has a Charisma and Conjuring of 6 each (when
>you care enough to buy the very best...). Thats probably pretty
>exceptional, but it will illustrate my point. If the mage trys to
>summon anything with a force higher than 6, he takes PHYSICAL damage
>from Drain. If he goes for a force higher than 12, we're talking
>Deadly physical damage.
>
>I don't know about you, but I can think of a lot of things I'd rather
>do than come to work and worry about Drain of 10S physical.
>Renraku Mage: "So I can either conjure up a force 10 Fire Elemental
>or cast Fashion on the CEO before his meeting?"

While fun, casting Fashion on the CEO (who has his own, personal, mage
assigned to him) probably isn't a smart thing to do. :-)

>I think the answer is obvious. BTW, note that the majority of mages
>don't have a conjuring or Charisma of 6. I think its a lot more
>reasonable to expect corps to keep a stable of 3-5 force elementals,
>with the occasional force 7 or 8 elemental for when runners try to
>blow up the Arcology.

While most mages don't have charisma's of 6+ or conjuring skills of 6+,
some /do/. And all a corp has to do is a get a handful of these people
on the payroll. Sure, Joe Average Mage doesn't (or can't) want to summon
up mongo-elementals or take 10S physical damage. But there are always
these sick and twisted types that love to push the envelope that DO
like to try this. And since it only takes a handful of these types to
create this problem, the unlikeliness of the average mage to be able
and willing is not a concern.

- Brett "youngin" Barksdale

Message no. 59 On Wed, 29 Jan 1997 02:47:57 -0500 Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> writes:
>>Actually I think that Manifest spirits receive Force*2 against ranged
>>weapons that are not muscle-powered, i.e. firearms, and Force (maybe
>1/2
>>Force) against muscle-powered ranged attacks, things like throwing
>>weapons and bows. So, he's only got to roll an 8...much easier if you
>ask
>>me. I don't know for sure about this, though, but that seems to be
>how I
>>remember reading it. Or that could be a house rule...(resulting, in
>this
>>case, from a misreading of the rules somewhere <sheepish grin>)
>
>Force * 2 against Weapons fire....which still doesn't mean too much
>until
>you get to these force levels.

Yeah. I oopsed again. I've used it that way around here though, and I
think it makes sense (the arrow doesn't carry as much of the attacker's
will as a sword, IMO), which is why I give spirits armor equal to force
against such items:)

>
>But nothing against any attack directly powered by strength. So: No
>armor
>versus the bow, thrown, or melee.

<shrug> See above. I originally did that 'cause it made sense at the
time, but I think I'll continue doing it:)

>
>>>> Also also, his charisma +3 lock helps with the drain?
>>>>
>>>Yes.
>>uh...I dunno about that. I don't know the official ruling, but it
>doesn't
>>seem entirely...um...kosher.
>>
>
>Well that's one! Anyone else?
>
I just don't like the idea that magic helps with using magic like that.
Foci are one thing, and I would be willing to allow someone to use their
power focus to increase their conjuring agbilities before I'd allow them
to use a spell for this. The same goes for Increase Willpower to resist
spell drain. All IMO, of course.

Canthros
--
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

Message no. 60 On 28 Jan 97 at 16:10, Brett Barksdale wrote:

Okay, first of, this post is getting very long so lets both agree to try
and snip as much as possible, just to keep this manageable.

<snip>
> > The operative phrase being "as long as you can leave your
> > elementals..."
>
> Which means....? It's not much of a problem for the mage to deal with.
Which means, it assumes that said mage has the opportunity to leave them
on standby while they continually try to summon additional "monster"
elementals. I'll address this later but it's the one point our debate
seems to hinge around.

>
<snip>
> >> rules, that means - in some amount of time, any mage WILL ABSOLUTELY
> >> AND CERTAINLY (unless they are stupid) have a stable of big-ass
> >> elementals. It's mathematically inevitable.
>
> >Your arguement assumes that said mage is living in a vacuum, in the
> >absence of any other events.
>
> The purest form of the argument assumes that. But unless you are assuming
> the absolute opposite - that all mages are constantly dodging gunfire,
> falling meteors and other, assorted acts of God - it's going to happen.
Not the exact opposite, something far less extreme. Namely, day to day
operations. It is neither tactically sound nor likely that any
experienced security firm or division will allow mages to patrol astrally,
they will use watchers and elementals instead. I'll explain why at the
end of this post.

<snip>
> >Security mages have to deal with these pesky "shadowrunners" who keep
> >trying to break into the site...
>
> And they get shadow break-ins each and every day/night of their lives?
> Doubtful.
No... of course not. But the fear of that is what security assets are
all about. They must continually guard against the possiblity, that's
their job. This is why defending something (security, bodyguard work,
etc.) is always much more difficult and resource intensive than pulling
black ops.

> >as well as maintaining astral patrols and
> >such.
> And a employer, seeing the benefits of having powerful elementals at
> their disposal, won't arrange for a day a week (or more) for the mage to
> summon and store them? Doubtful.
You are assuming they can spare the resources to do so and that they
consider said resources worth the expense. I'll address this point as
well further on.

<snip>
>>
> >Both those requirements preclude "leaving them out there."
>
> Hogwash. :-)
>
> The occassional shadowrun /may/, if mundane resources can't
> deal with it, cause them to be used. But, seriously, in a credible game,
> just how often can Acme Tech (where the mage works) get hit by
> shadowrunners?
Not all that far fetched... I can't recall the last time I played in a
group that didn't include at least one magician (namely myself, but quite
frequently someone else would play a shaman or something as well).
Shadowrunners often have magical assets and this causes Corps no end of
nightmares. Shadowruns occur infrequently to rarely depending on the
site, but enough to cause those in charge to institute varying degrees of
security, which these days usually includes magical security.

> And why, oh why, would a mage waste his elementals services by keeping
> them "on the clock" during mundane astral security sweeps?
Because it's a lot safer to send out an expendable elemental than to send
out your very non-replacable astral body. Famous last words... "All's
quiet in sec..............."

>
> >Before
> >you say it, yes it's possible that a corp might very well keep a small
> >cadre of mages in reserve and that such mages could indeed accumulate a
> >stable of powerful elementals.
>
> Possible? Come on! Only the World's Dumbest Corporation (TM) /wouldn't/
> have such a cadre, at the very least.
Yes possible, nothing is that certain and corporations frequently base
decisions on things other than rationallity. I can give you a local
corporation as case in point. The previous owner hated technology,
specifically, he hated computers. He swore that so long as he owned the
corporation (a private corp, statewide... assets at around 200 million),
no computer would ever be used. True to his word, up until his death in
the 80's not a single computer was used anywhere in the corp. His son
sold the corp to another group (for about 200 mil) and now spends his time
collecting castles for a hobby (I'm not joking... real, full sized
castles). The company now has a data processing department. However,
since company managers are still learning to use this resource they are
slow to spend the kind of cash necessary to keep it up to SOTA. As a
result the DP Dept. is constantly having to make do with out-dated
equipment and software, short on staff, and a plethora of other problems.
Now apply this problem to corporations in Sr. Magic appeared in 2011, the first
magical degrees weren't offered until beginning of 2025. That's about 30
years time passed, enough for one generation of mages to mature. My guess
would be that many Corporations are still struggling to understand how
best to utilize mages in any capacity. If the example of the problems of
a very real corporation are any example of how slow changes sometimes
take, and how older entrenched ideas can make progess difficult, it may be
another 20 years before Corporations begin mounting truly efficient
magical defenses. Simply put, they lack the experience with magic they
have with mundane measures, which likely breeds an attitude of reliance on
the mundane. Here's an example: Landscaping a facility to aid mundane
security measures is a well understood concept, how many security
landscapers are experienced in landscaping with magic in mind?

> >However, I would point out that such a cadre would be small and rarely
> >seen.
>
> Upon what do you base this statement? Obviously such elementals would
> represent a great asset to the corporation. So, there needs to be a solid
> reason why a corp WOULDN'T go for as much as they can get. Rarely seen I
> can believe. But small? I gotta hear /reasons/ why they would be small.
> If there's no downside, I should think that they'd push it as much as
> they could.
>
> What's the downside? Until you can answer that, there's absolutely no
> basis for stating that a corp wouldn't go as far as they could with it.
> After all, their competitors certainly will.

Okay, let me see if I can answer most of your questions in one spot here
and keep this post from fragmenting too much.
According to what I've seen and read in the various source books, mages
are at a premium. Take a look at the MCT group in the Grimoire (p61).
Members are afforded a luxury lifestyle. This seems to be Corp treatment
of mages in general, mages are sufficiently rare that they can demand this
sort of pampering. What this tells me is that Corps invest a lot in their
mages: lifestyle, training, facilities, conjuring materials, etc. What
this also tells me is that a Corp will be loathe to risk that very
non-expendable asset when other expendable assets are available. In
simple terms, if the mage gets geeked it's going to be hell to replace
him/her, if an elemental gets geeked it's much, much, cheaper and easier
to replace.
Sending a mage on astral patrol is probably about one of the most
bone-headed things a Corp could do. Especially with those nifty new Sec
Control Centers from Ares. (Thanks Ares for make my shadowrunning career
so much easier.) The reason is simply this, the mage goes out on astral
patrol, get's ambushed and dry gulched by a PC mage, now all those high
force elementals are useless (in fact, they're gone). Second, for those
really nasty shadowrunners; slam an area effect damaging manipulation
spell, like acid bomb, into the astrally projecting mage. That spell
grounds into his meat body and takes out that shiny control center. Say
good-bye to central control. I don't see corps making this mistake more
than once.
Since it isn't safe for the mage to go out, next option would be watcher
spirits. However, these don't work out that well. First, the things are
just plain stupid. Second, they tend to last for shorter periods of time
which requires additional summonings (unless ritual materials are used,
but that can take as long as conjuring an elemental, in which case why not
just conjure an elemental). Watchers are described as having great
difficulty understanding non-astral things, and finally are limited in the
number of "authorized" personnel they can recognize. So unless it's a
zero zone, they will be very limited in how effective they'll be. This
makes watchers much less useful for patrols than an elemental.
That leaves us back at elementals. They can be summoned and held in
reserve to be used as needed. They tend to be smarter than watchers which
makes them more usesful for patrols and guard duty. They generally remain
in service for longer periods of time. If they run into trouble they are
generally tough enough to either survive and report, or to physically
impede the intruder until other forces can converge. From a corporate
managers view point this make elementals very desirable as a security
measure.
Keeping the above in mind, consider that after reading Corp Shadowfiles,
only three corps seem to make good use of their magical assets, MCT,
Aztechnology and Saeder-Krupp. The rest still seem to be figuring out how
best to manage them, making mistakes like keeping their magical assets
seperate instead of fully integrating them. That seems to indicate a
certain level of "clumsiness" on the part of most corporations.
Shadowfiles points out the several of the Big Eight's security chiefs are
mundane. How well do those mundanes understand and use their magical
resources. What about personal biases... what happens when a security
manager is also a card carrying member of Humanis? Finally, Corps are
always interested in the bottom line. Can the head of magical security
convince the board of directors that keeping a cadre of magicians on staff
who do nothing but try to conjure high force elementals all week is cost
effective? How much will it cost to get a force 10 or 12 elemental with
say... 5 services? How many tries at 10k to 12k per attempt? And is
that really worth it vs just using more lower force elementals, or maybe
just extra sec guards... or maybe paranormal critters? Budget cuts hurt
when it comes to things like this. I'm not saying it won't happen, in
fact I'd say Aztechnology and Saeder-Krupp both likely do take such
measures (and who knows what else, the Azzies have blood magic and
spirits know what that dragon has taught his sec mages!). But not every
corp will do so, or to the same extent.
I agree that what you propose is possible, and I also agree that just
from a combat capabilities point of view can be very effective. However,
I'm not ready to agree that a corporate accountant would see it the same
way, and that's the real limiting factor. From what I've seen, most corps
won't, they're still coming to terms with how to use their magical assets.
Most are taking a "blunt instrument" approach that is far from being the
most effective method.
I'll also point out that those high force elementals may not be quiet the
powerhouses they would appear to be. Here's some numbers to crunch.
A single Force 10 elemental requires a conjurer with (CHA 6, Conj. 6) to
roll t0s for success. I forget the exact statistics but the chances per
die are something around 2-3%. I tried rolling this and only got 1
success, which means 1 service.
A shadowrunning mage (also CHA 6, Conj. 6) summons a force 5 elemental,
needing only 5 for success. I believe the stats for this are around
15-20%. Rolling again, I got three successes. So far no use of karma or
other bonuses.
Now, the two mages square off. We'll assume that each mage has six
elementals. It's a fair bet the sec mage will have 1 of each elemental
and the remaining two would likely be fire and earth/air. Fire can aid
with combats spells, earth manipulations and air with detection. So our
shadow mage prepares with elementals of the oppostie types, water and
air/earth.
When opposite types of elementals engage, it becomes simple math. The
higher force elemental has it's force reduced by the lower force elemental
(which gets disrupted). However, since I got three success I can recall
may disrupted elementals at full force. Again the elementals fight and
this time both sides are wiped out. Using my last success I recall my
elementals. However the corp mage no longer has elementals and I now have
"elemental superiority" to coin a term. The point here is, that less can
be more. The shadow mage spent less time conjuring, spent less money on
materials and yet emerged the victor. The only way the corp mage will win
is if they have multiple services for each of those "monster" elementals.
This will likely require multiple conjurings (which can be done to gain
additional services at the rate of one service added per two success).
However, at such high TNs this is going to get tough. Lets say based on
the percentages I gave that out of every two attempts, the corp mage only
gets one addition service. To total up 5 services would mean an average
of 11 conjurings, requiring 11 days work and 110,000 nuyen for a single
force 10 elemental. For six that runs up to two months work, over 600k
spent, plus another 200k for the luxury lifestyle of the mage. Thats
almost 1 mil in two months and nothing on the balance sheet to show for
it. And the first time a shadow mage reduces those powerful elementals
in the manner I described I would imagine the corp in question would take a
serious look at cost effectiveness.

>
> There are, however, limitations to how far it can go. Offhand, here are
> some of them that I see:
>
> (i) mages are sort-of rare (although that one in a hundred number,
> divided
> into /billions/ of people, isn't so small...)
The Grimoire puts it a 3 to 4 million fully trained magicians world wide
of which how many of those are employed by corporations? (As opposed to
working freelance, aka shadowrunners, or simply legitimately self
employeed.) Of those that are employed by the corps, how many are
assigned to security as opposed to say... research (in short, the corps
would likely weigh the cost of security mages vs. the income generated by
research, a philosophy likely to generate minimal assignments to security
work)? And of that number, how many have the Chr 6 and Conjuring 6
necessary to attempt what's been discussed? When those factors are
considered, that 3-4 million dwindles rapidly.

> I'm not really trying to be a pain-in-the-ass. It's just that I'm
> interested in hearing the feedback. I think I'm really looking for
> someone to come out and give some solid reasons why this /wouldn't/
> be the case. Debates like this do wonders for fleshing out the little-
> but-important continuity details every game world should have. In a
> fantasy game, you can overlook the "peasant payroll" etc. and get away
> with it. But in a techno-cyberpunk-megaeconomic game like SR, details
> like this are the /lifeblood/ of the gameworld.
I love a good friendly debate, and so long as this remains friendly I'll
happily play devil's advocate and tear the idea apart, examine it and put
it together again. In the process it's very likely we'll both learn a
thing or three. I agree that SR can be very demanding in the level of
detailed work and "completeness" required of a GM. I've gotten rather
burned out with GMing these days and much prefer to just play when I can.

Sincerly,
--

Ashelock
mailto: woneal@*******.net

"They say it's a brave new world we're building. I say they're right,
and we'll all have to be pretty brave to live in it."

Message no. 61 >>Denzil Kruse said on 13:34/28 Jan 97...
>>
>> How can it remain bound for years if every day it uses up a service.
Every
>> day one of two things will happen: it will be called from stand-by
(service
>> spent) or it won't be called from stand-by (service spent). Isn't that
>> right?
>
>I find the rules for this a bit vague -- they talk about the elemental
>"hanging around" (SRII p.141), but does this mean it is placed on stand-by
>in "parts unknown" waiting for the mage to call it, or does it mean the
>elemental is in astral or physical space close to the mage but isn't
>performing any services? In the former, _any_ elemental would only stick
>around for a couple of days, in the latter you could keep them bonded for
>years by never calling on them.

Yeah, I realized later that we interpreted the rules wrong, but in what I
believe is in the spirit <snicker> of magic. Keeping an elemental bound to
you forever is not how I want my game world to work. So we made what
someone else caleed the "24 hour rule", that is: If you don't exact a
service of some kind within a 24 hour period, you lose one service just
having the spirit on-call, whether it is in the neterworld of the astral
plane or "hanging around".

I just don't think the bonding that you create with your elemental should
bind it forever. I like the idea of it wearing off over time. It also
balances out the use of elementals, IMO. But don't get me started on that,
I think the others that are discussing that are doing fine.

>You don't see many corps with huge, concrete gun towers and heavy tanks
>patrolling the branch office grounds. That kind of show-of-force makes
>customer's uneasy. Same deal on the astral.

That's true if they are outside the building. But who will see legions of
astral entities if they are inside the building? The employees will, but
they don't count. Or, they could just have the elementals patrol in the
more sensitive areas of the building.

In this sense, astral security is the same as physical and matrix security.
You won't see the astral threats, the big guns, or the black IC unless they
are responding to you!

>>Also also, his charisma +3 lock helps with the drain?
>>I suppose it would, but sitting around for 32 hours with an active spell
>>lock? With the energy of a force 10 conjuring going on for that long? A
>>bug may come clear over from Chicago to check that one out!:)
>
>p91, Grimmy "...the circle is an astral barrier only when a mage is within
>it, summoning...Astral barriers are opaque..."
>
>So he'd be safe....until he was done, right after the Drain check... :)
>Then he'd get to see all those that gathered around him.

In Bug City, the book seems to imply that powerful magic can kind of be
sensed by the bugs. If you try a summoning within Bug City, or cast spells,
you will attract attention. Is this a special ability of Bugs? All
native-astral beings? A special property of the astral plane around
Chicago?

Could be, but I think it would be cool if it wasn't, and seems to fit with
the idea of magic. I picture, during the Great Ghost Dance, people from all
over the world sort of shivering and casting their gaze towards America. On
a smaller scale, I think a force 10 summoning would do a similiar thing.
Maybe the barrier is opaque, but the magic may still attract attention.

And a spirit, perhaps a local bug, could come to investigate.

>I'm _sure_ I saw somewhere that Increase Mental Attribute spells were
>worthless for magic...Willpower didn't help Drain, and Charisma didn't help
>Conjuring....but I don't know where.....Does anyone else remember this? Is
>it a 1st ed holdover?

That's the way I play it. It doesn't seem to fit. Magically boosted
attributes are artificial from a magical point of view. The willpower
wouldn't give you more dice for drain, and charisma won't enable you to
summon higher force spirits without taking physical damage, and boosed
intelligence won't make you faster in astral space.

>> With a conjuring skill of 6 you can't statistically get an elemental
>> above a reasonable force with any amount of services, unless you use
>> centering or burn karma. Even if you do use centering, a centering
>> skill of 6 will only yield a maximum of three successes. Again, this is
>> not statistically probable. Take into consideration that a failure when
>> attempting to conjure costs them a ton of NY and several hours for
>> nothing, most characters will think twice before attempting to conjure
>> something beyond their means.
>>
>you've lost me, this centering seems to be used (above) to gain services?
>which is never possible, only to reduce drain and target MODIFIERS.

I am almost positive that centering only applies to the sorcery skill.

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com

Message no. 62 >Everyone should also keep in mind that, if the corps have a large astral
>army, they too can be random victims of attacks from the astral. I mean,
>if the corps have 50 force total spirits hangin around then think what that
>would look like in the astral.

Pretty bright, yes. But we're talking about keeping these elementals
"on ice". They don't sit around locally drawing attention. If they did,
they'd be "burning" their services up at 1 per 24 hours - rendering
our discussion ,moot. (Some would say it's moot anyway... :-)

However, even if they /were/ hangin' around locally, how can you
be worried about some astral monster coming to take a look? When
you've got that much elemental power at the ready, you ARE the
astral monster.... :-)

- Brett

Message no. 63 > >|>Also also, his charisma +3 lock helps with the drain?
> >|
> >|No. I'm not sure where it says this, but I'm very sure it doesn't.
> >
> >I think it does... After all, improve Willpower helps in
> >spellcasting....
> It does? Could you give a specific reference for this (I'd like to know
> so I can check...)
>
Yeah the drain from conjuring is resisted with charisma so a +3 charisma
would help =)

~Caric

"All the world's indeed a stage, we are mearly players.
Performers and portrayers. Each anothers audience,
outside the gilded cage." -Rush
caric@*******.com

Message no. 64 >Except that the 1 Mill. is a one time deal, if the Wally Wage Mage is
>making 100 force 10 conjurings (one a day...he does need to sleep..) none
>stop, it will take him (barring work on weekends...he is a valued asset
>you know) that's 260 days, which is the better part of a year.

The 1 million for 100 summonnings was part of an economics argument. I
don't think that they'll actually force this guy to go at it this hard.
He'd go nuts... I was just saying that the corp could afford it. Even
going balls-out, that's one million for 2/3rds of a *year*. Ease up
on the pace a bit, and that money lasts for over a year. The corp
can afford that - no problem.

>Now we
>assume he's getting just a little above minimum wage...(after all mages
>are a rare thing, and ones who can do this kind of high-power, sustained
>conjuring are especially rare indeed.)...that all adds up to a nice chunk
>of change that WDC (tm) gets billed for. Also consider that while Wally
>"Conjure-meister" Wage Mage is spending all of his time in a summoning
>circle, how is the corp going to make use of his elementals? Put them
>all on guard duty? Send them one at a time out on Remote Service (that
>way Wally can keep an ever steady stream of them coming out with out fear
>of hitting his max of...lets say he's exceptionally bright...9
>elementals)?

Likely, Wally is part of an elite team of conjurers - sharing the duties
with others in his group. His elementals do NOT go out on guard duty.
They stay back and are a quick-response, extremely-mobile force that
only get used in certain circumstances.

When and if Wally "maxes" out, he gets to relax even more than he already
does.

>But like I said above...just having the mage is hellishly expensive, let
>alone one who could handle the kind of demands it would take.

It's not /that/ expensive when you look at other corp securty measures.
And there are all kinds of mages. Surely, most aren't talented enough
or suited to this sort of work. But the type that is DOES exist out there.
And it only takes a few of them to make this work.

>And hello tricky PR problems. Not all the world is complacent with the
>arrival of magic, and I doubt the attention that an Astral Army (tm)
>would attract would be with out it's head aches.

Yes, the Astral Inquirer will be all over them... :-) Seriously, just
how do you expect bad PR to come out of this? They operate on their
own extraterritorial properties at all times. And, most of the time,
the elementals are all "on ice" - attracting no attention whatsoever.

>You don't see many corps with huge, concrete gun towers and heavy tanks
>patrolling the branch office grounds. That kind of show-of-force makes
>customer's uneasy. Same deal on the astral.

Hogwash. Joe Mundane can walk by corp HQ and see tanks and get nervous.
Joe Mundane can /not/ see the astral. And, /again/, most of the time,
there is NOTHING TO SEE. The elemental sit "on ice" in the deep astral
or whevever they go.

>Also something that
>powerfull can't go around unnoticed, I believe the difficulty of
>noticing, on the physical plane, an elemental that is present on the
>astral plane is something like (8 - Force), with 2 being the lowest t#.
>I don't know about you but I might not like doing business with some
>company that has plainly visible shimmering shapes swirling around it's
>borders...reminds me of bug city..

I think we have a misunderstanding. You seem to be under the impression
that these elementals are always present and cruising around. This is
NOT the case.

- Brett "youngin" Barksdale

Message no. 65 At 01:36 PM 29/01/97 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>I find the rules for this a bit vague -- they talk about the elemental
>"hanging around" (SRII p.141), but does this mean it is placed on stand-by
>in "parts unknown" waiting for the mage to call it, or does it mean the
>elemental is in astral or physical space close to the mage but isn't
>performing any services? In the former, _any_ elemental would only stick
>around for a couple of days, in the latter you could keep them bonded for
>years by never calling on them.
>
>Also, you can lengthen the service of a bound elemental, but the rules
>for it are almost exactly the same as for summoning a new one (Grimoire
>p.65). I would probably (this has never come up when I GMed) make the
>ritual easier than conjuring a new spirit, to make the magician keep the
>same elementals around for a longer time.
>

This paragraph at first seems even worse than what you describe. It states
that for every two successes in the new conjuring test only one service is
gained. Why would a mage go to all this time, trouble and expensive to get
only half the usual services? Far better to do a complete new conjuring.

Except... This paragraph is on the page opposite the description of great
form spirits. Perhaps this re-conjuring is intended to gain new services
from great form elementals without the need of performing a new astral
quest. After all, the astral quest is to bring forth the great form of the
spirit and a re-conjuring is being performed against an already existing
great form; hence, no need for another astral quest. A fairly serious bonus
for any gutsy mage who likes force 8 great form elementals.

Chris

_______________________________________________________________
Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.

Message no. 66 >>I said it was POSSIBLE. I didn't say likely. All you have to do to geek
>>the mage is get past his 40-50 force points of elementals. No biggie.
>>Oh yeah, you set off an alarm (else the mage wouldn't be there with the
>>elite magical defense). So, the mage is miles away and is guiding his
>>elementals astrally. Now, what do your runners do?

>Okay the problem seems to boil down too: You think runners hitting a high
>sec installation will get cooked because one decent NPC mage can call in 50
>force points worth of elementals...So lets go through it:

Actually, more like 150 (from a group of these mages) if it's a big-8 corp.
It's just 50 if it's "only" Acme Corp.

>Well, I must first assume your runners have SOME kind of magical support, or
>it may be a lost cause. Here comes big mage boy floating in with his
>calvary...Good strategy so far: you've protected his meat bod, and all his
>elementals are here, so no time is lost.

That's the basic idea, yep. :-)

>My strategies? Depends on the strengths of my team. Believe me, we would
>have talked this out. I can scatter my team, since the Elementals need to
>be in LOS of the Mage, which means only one room/hallway. But that may not
>be the smartest.

Yeah, here's where is starts to get nasty. A lot of things that you want to do
vs. the elementals, like splitting up to play those LOS constraints against the
mage(s), work really badly against the /mundane/ security that's also around. The
meat guards would just /love/ for you to split your forces up.

>I'd better have some watchers on hand...If I've got some
>good force ones, I might even be able to take one of your elementals down
>right off the bat...(assuming I can do so before your mage starts popping
>them)

Remember, these are big elementals. Are we bringing force 10 watchers to
the party? :-)

>A Spirit Fighter Phys ad (basically, he's got Astral Percep, Killing hands)
>would be useful...Little beats Killing hands in Astral space.

A rare archetype of awakened person - even more so than a good summonning mage.
But, sure, nuyen talks and you should be able to find someone like this in a
Seattle-type city with time and planning.

>But your Elementals are going to have to manifest to get me. Granted, I'll
>have to use Willpower to kill you. But impossible? I think not. Say I get
>a Nature Spirit to do the whole Confusion thing. Sure, he'll be gone in a
>round....but what can I do in that round? Quite a bit. Assume a Sam of the
>level this run requires coudl take down another Elemental (Whose Confused,
>mind you) before the Nature Spirit goes.

You're going to sneak in a force 10 nature spirit? One, you might not have the
time (since you have to cross domain boundries all the time). Two, if you
go for force 10, you might not get /anything/. And will a smaller one do
the job? Sure, granted, one can always get lucky with such an effect. But
thems is long odds with your life at stake. :-)

Yes, elementals are not killing machines - even force 10 ones - especially
compared to a high WP sammy with cyber spurs or Astral Phys Adept with his
force 4 weapon focus, "Ginsu-matic". But this is all on top of the
non-insignificant
mundane security running around. It's /not/ just the runners vs. the elementals.

>Heck, Just for kicks, (since we've been detected) One of us shoots a
>sprinkler. Forget any Fire Elementals.

Not impossible. But remember, you've been discovered and an alarm is going.
(Otherwise, the Astral Army wouldn't have been sent, supposedly.) And it's
/their/ home turf. Presumably one designs their home turf to work /with/ their
defense and not against. Besides, Fire Elementals would likely be kept back
for use in adding dice to the mage(s)' combat spells. God help /anybody/
who has an active spell lock/focus or tries to come after the mage astrally.
That astral phys adept (with his vision opening an astral link) may go
<splat> before he so much as winds up for his first killing hands strike.

Earth Elementals would make better grunts, anyway, wouldn't they?

>Now we do an Area effect Mana Spell at your elementals. Sure, it's tough:
>target number of ten, need to get more successes than they do. But we've
>got Karma and Magic pool. If I recall, the Threat Rating for bound spirits
>isn't all that High. Once or twice, and your spirits are in pretty rough
>shape.

My players don't have Karma Pool, but that problem's unique to my situation.

That mage in astral might just be reserving initiative - waiting to <zotz>
spells like that. And, even with karma/magic pools, don't underestimate how
obnoxious TNs of 10 are. Only one of every 12 dice rolled scores a 10 or higher.
It's not too hard for the elementals to shake off the spell - assuming the
runner mage gets it off in the first place.

>Hard? You better believe it....looking through it, you better have at least
>five runners, at least two of whom can do something on the astral plane. A
>sixth running Astral backup would be even better.

That astral backup guy gets killed or chased WAY off first. Think he's going
to win?

>No one gets through
>unscathed. But reasonable? Sure. They are trying to beat top of the line
>security here. Personally, I would have tried to find out before hand about
>the mage, and had someone nearby with some weaponry near his meat bod. :)

Top of the line here is too lethal. That's my problem. The combination of
power and mobility is too hard to beat. Heck, it's hard enough to rationalize
how runners don't go <squish> w/o the elementals around when an alarm goes
off. /With/ such a powerful and mobile force available on top of it, it's
over before it begins.

>>Again, SCALE is the issue here. Yes, corps should have an advantage. But,
>>no, it should not be that big. Else, if you play your NPCs even reasonably
>>smart, the runners are history. End of story.

>Your runners shouldn't be trying something so hard without being good
>enough...at least two magical initiates, with enough Karma to survive a few
>rounds....If they play their cards right, their fine. (Say....a decker to
>stop the alarm, redirect it, etc...No elementals!)

Again, I've got some issues with Karma Pool. And, yes, if the alarms are
dealt with, then no elementals. But the first time that alarm ever gets
tripped, goodbye runners.

>>>that Matrix intrusion is far more common , and thus deserving of more money.
>>>And that those high power elementals ARE expensive, and Sammies have a
>>
>>Uh, force 10 elemental = 10,000 nuyen per attempts. At ONE HUNDRED attempts,
>>that's only 1 million. Take a lot at sammy's cybercosts and surgery costs
>>and therapy for that MoveByWire 4.0. It's /very/ cost effective and offers
>>tactical elements sammy could never offer.

>The Sammie I refered to was Mine :) The corps can just have a dozen
>cyber-free jobbies for less than the Elemental OR the Sammie...a few 100,000
>as opposed to your Nuyen...And they don't melt the copier defending the
>place (at least not often)

But it impresses the corp secretaries... :-)

Yeah, the corp could get cyber-free jobbies for less. However, as they say,
you get what you pay for. Crap security = successful runners. If they can't
get the job done (and they can't - against good runners), then they don't
get used for securing "prime" corporate holdings - no matter /how/ cheap
they are.

>>>tendancy to cut them up anyway...and think about the cheaper cost of a few
>>>dobermans, some electronic alarms, and some hire-out security service, or
>>>maybe legions of cheap, unaugmented guards.
>>
>>And those elements all have their place. But the cost of the big elementals
>>isn't hardly prohibitive. They will have all those defenses AND the
>>big elementals.

>Not if they think the others are sufficient.

But they /don't/ think the others are sufficient. They /can't/ think the
others are sufficient. We've all seen what a good team does to non-enhanced
guards and dobermans.

> "Johnson, about your
>figures...Do you really think spending A MILLION NUYUN on this one aspect of
>security is worth it? I don't see any changes. Those guards Smith put in
>patrol this place every hour, I see them on my coffee break. HIS budget was
>only 300,000. Your's is a fine backup plan, I'm sure...but with no recent
>security alerts, I'm afraid we can't justify this. How about 100,000? Nice
>round figure. Now about those quarterly reports...."

Granted, internal corporate budget wars are something that I haven't considered.
A lot of the time, the runner's best friend is the short-sightedness of
corp exec X. Or a feud between departments is keeping things from being
as they should. That, too, is part of a good shadowrun world.

But you've got to draw the line somewhere. The guys at the top didn't get
there by being stupid. And their pet projects (the "prime" corporate holdings
we're talking about) will get the good protection.

>>Yes, but were talking about the difference between the cost of keeping mage
>>X (salary, etc.) and the cost of keeping mage AND summonning funds. Since
>>the corp is keeping mage X around ANYWAY, we're only concerned with the

>And incentive pay to make him go through ten hour rituals, day after day
>after day, when his fellow MIT&M graduate at Renraku is researching the
>effect of Mana based health spells on the energy output of the paranormal
>hummingbird (or some equally fascinating Hermetic thing) But your point is
>taken. I was arguing more against the mom and pop stores having this kind
>of security.

Granted, low priority sites of big corps won't draw this type of protection.
Neither will middle priority holdings of smaller corps. But the elite sites
of middle corps or the middle-or-better sites of elite corps will draw this
type of defense. And what kind of runners are going to knock-over the local
liquor store over-and-over again?

It'd be a tough world if the five-and-dime down the street dropped a force
10 elemental on your head for shoplifting... :-)

Also, note that while an average mage won't have the mindset for this sort
of thing, all it takes is a handful of mages that do. They not be common,
but there are wacked-out mages out there who are great at summonning and
would like nothing better than to "push the envelope" like this.

>>But it doesn't /have/ to be zero-zero zones. It's not /that/ expensive. Plus,
>>astral mages and their Astral Armies (TM) are /extremely/ mobile. All it
>>takes is one good alarm and any "worthy" corp holding and it's goodbye
>>runners.

>It is THAT rare though.

I guess that this would depend on the game in question. I would think,
though, that a group will progress until, finally, all they take /is/
elite jobs. The early going isn't a problem. But once they graduate to
the Big Time (TM), then every run has these concerns.

The mobility point is valid...Again, realize that
>the average intrusion is physically based, which means manifested
>elementals, which means a big mess of the area you're trying to protect.

True. We can't destroy the merchandise, after all... :-)

>Personally, I think the ten hour rituals alone would keep your plan from
>happening...Take any Skilled, Rare labor pool, and try and force them to do
>something extremely undesirable. It won't work, they'll go to someone more
>than happy to hire them without requiring them to do it. Remember,
>hermetics love discovering the how and whys of things. Doing a ten hour
>ritual (you said 100 attempts? Snooze!) over and over only teaches them to
>mix Pixie stix with their Mountain Dew to try and feign interest. :)

True. But again, you only need a mere /handful/ of such mages. And while
the vast majority /won't/ do this for a living, there are those that /will/.
And that's all that's necessary to create the problem.

- Brett "youngin" Barksdale

Message no. 67 >Agree with the math. However, the key flaw in the rules, as written, is
>that there is NO TIME LIMIT for those services to expire as long as
>you leave your elementals "out there". While it is likely than any single
>summoning attempt will go <fizzle> when fishing for a force 10 (or 8, or
>whatever) elemental, it is CERTAIN that, eventually, a great roll will
>be made. And since you can store these things forever, under the rules,
>that means - in some amount of time, any mage WILL ABSOLUTELY AND CERTAINLY
>(unless they are stupid) have a stable of big-ass elementals. It's
>mathematically inevitable.

Just one fact no one seems to have considered -- DRAIN. Unless all the NPC
mages are running around with charismas of 5+, the chances are decent that
conjuring an elemental of force 10+ will KILL THEM. The same goes for PC
mages. It seems to me that there is a lot of stress on the mental attributes
for mages, they need willpower to cast spells, intelligence to use foci, and
charisma to conjure. So, this means that any PC or NPC that has a high
enough charisma to risk conjuring an elemental of force 10 is lacking in
other areas, or is very powerful and therefore there is no problem with
having high power elementals -- they are powerful mages and who would expect
less.

One other point, with every attempting conjuring, drain has to be delt with
whether an elemental appears or not. Even if you assume that the mage has a
charisma of 5 or 6, if they are trying for a force 10 elemental, at almost
every attempt they will sustain serious physical damage. Try again without
healing first and you are DEAD. This is a big deal and should not be
ignored even if healing spells or whatever are used to prevent eventual
death from drain. Have a look at BlackJack's article on damage on Paolo's
site to see what I mean. I think any mage would think twice before making a
practice of taking this kind of beating. You have to try to look at more
than the numbers and the knowledge that it won't kill the mage, because the
fact that finally conjuring that force 10 fire elemental on the 4th try
without dying means that it hurts all the more. Basically, it is a fairly
munchkinious practice to go about conjuring all these super-elementals
without a real need and specific purpose in mind other than "they kick ass."
And that is the real problem.

New Corp Mage archetype quote: "You want me to conjure WHAT, do you know the
kind of aneurism I'll get! You must be joking, I quit!"
and thus begins the life in the shadows.

--DT

Message no. 68 SH>I have a new? question to pose to the list:
SH>How can you balance the game for a mage with 8+ force elementals at his
SH>call?
SH>Sure they have only 1 or 2 services each, but a force 10 elemental with
SH>one service is still a force 10 elemental.

Well, it is tough! (likeyou need telling that right?) if he prizes them,
send a "standard" Force 6 of opposite element to create that great
magical nullification splash <Acid + Base -> Salt + Water)
otherwise, you might have subtle consequences. force 10's in the area
leave big footprints on the astral, and curious magicians could find out
about him.

SH>Also, how difficult would it be for a mage to find a place where he can
SH>inscribe a summoning circle for force 10 elementals and summon a total of
SH>32 force points worth? (They are 32 hours and he has a spell lock, so he
SH>doesn't get drained.)

i'm not sure i know what you're talking about here...

SH>Also also, his charisma +3 lock helps with the drain?
yep.
SPACE COAST Online 407-773-1042 Telnet Spacecst.net WWW - http://Spacecst.net

Message no. 69 >>er, seeing the benefits of having powerful elementals at
>>their disposal, won't arrange for a day a week (or more) for the mage
>>to summon and store them?
>>Doubtful.

>Okay, so they see these great benefits....which are?

First and foremost, absolutely FANTASTIC mobility. The more we
continue this discussion, the more I realize that, you're right,
the size (and in number of corp mages doing this) isn't as big
as I first though. However, the more we continue this discussion,
the more I realize that, if the book's ruling on "icing" elementals is
right, ALL of the corps will have something like this going on.

Think about it, this forty to fifty force levels of elementals is for
only ONE mage. Now, let the corp settle down to your elite team concept -
which seems reasonable. It follows that, to be in this elite team of
summonning mages, you /will/ be the one with Charisma 6+ and Summonning 6+.
And you /won't/ be subject to all of the time-constraints of having to
do mundane astral or meat security. After all, you're a member of this
elite team and that's your job - period. Now, how many are we dealing with.
Is is a stretch to say that, in a large city (such as everyone's favorite
Seattle), a big-8 corp should have around a dozen of these guys on staff?
They probably don't want too many more than that, because you start
getting into diminishing returns. (You can only drop so many elementals
on any intruding runners before it just doesn't matter anymore... ;-)

Now, on a day-to-day business, these guys don't patrol or whatever. They
summon-summon-summon some more. And, when a "big" alarm comes in, they
go. Assume that between time-off and other concerns, only a third of them
are available for any given alarm. However, that's still four of these
elite summonners. That's ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY to TWO HUNDRED (!!!) force
levels of elementals coming down on the runners. And these are about the most
mobile forces there are. Ouch. I don't care /how/ prepared a runner party is.
If they can handle /that/, it's time to retire the characters... :-)

>>The problem is that there is ZERO DOWNSIDE to this tactic - as the rules
>>are written. Corps love zero downsides. So do players, excepct that the
>>pesky GM usually keeps them running around just enough to keep any one of

>the downside is that the mage can't be doing anything else during his
>expensive time,

But that's ok. This mage's one and only job is to support this part of the
corp's forces. Using the elite team model, it's shouldn't be a problem at
all.

>>The occassional shadowrun /may/, if mundane resources can't
>deal with it, cause them to be used. But, seriously, in a credible game,
>>>just how often can Acme Tech (where the mage works) get hit by shadowrunners?
>>
>>"gee Bob, that's the sixteenth team to hit us this month..." :-)

>How often does Acme Tech have a mage of sufficeient caliber?

Pretty often, actually. Remember, the "twelve per big city" applies to a
Big-8 corp like Renraku etc. However, even a smaller corp should be able
to cover their resources very well. Being smaller means that they have less
resources on security than a big-8 corp. However, it also means that they
have a lot less resources to /protect/. Remember, all we're talking about is
a single mage with a talent for summoning. That's not a rarity as far as magic
talent goes. /Any/ corp should be able to hire ONE of these guys. So, if you're
a prime facility of even a "rinky-dink" (non big-8) corp, you are still likely
to be seeing a large number of buff elementals.

However, it is possible for a very well trained team to handle the output of
/one/ of these mages, maybe. But four? (for a big-8 corp). I don't think so.

>>Possible? Come on! Only the World's Dumbest Corporation (TM) /wouldn't/
>>have such a cadre, at the very least.

>No, only WDC(TM) wouldn't WANT them. FEW can afford them.

I disagree strongly. It wasn't so bad even when you let any ole' summonning
mage on the staff do it. And if you specialize down to only an elite team,
then it's trivial. Yes, it's "expensive", but so is every /other/ aspect of
corp security. And /this/ special team can get it's collective ass over to
/wherever/ they're needed ASAP. Your other assets (mundane guards) CAN'T do
that. That element alone makes this sort of team a must-have for any corp.

If a corp can't afford this sort of defense, they're not a corp. They're
a small business. ;-)

>What's the asset? Have a big guy that melts all your office equipment and
>then get's offed by a willful dwarf?

The assets is a very powerful and /ultra-mobile/ force. I think you are
underestimating the value of mobility. All the defense in the world is
worthless if you can't get it to where it's needed. This defense never
has that problem.

>Oh yeah, and since the Mage is there (otherwise the elemental isn't
>attacking) he get's geeked in the process, losing all the future benfits he
>provides, and upping the insurance rates of the other mages this company can
>afford....All this for the "rare" shadowrun done against Acme.

How in /hell/ is this mage getting geeked? You need to have an astral presence
and then get thru his FIFTY FORCE LEVELS of elementals. If this is Acme
Tech, he can see if it's going /that/ badly against him and flee. If this
is a big-8, he's got THREE OTHER mage buddies from the team helping him as
well. Anything that forms an astral link is going to get it's butt royally
kicked.

Accidents can happen, but the threat to these astral mages is about as
minimal as it gets in shadowrun firefights.

>solid reason why a corp WOULDN'T go for as much as they can get.
>Rarely seen I can believe. But small? I gotta hear /reasons/ why they
>would be small. If there's no downside, I should think that they'd
>push it as much as they could.

>1)Because mages are rare

Not /that/ rare.

>2)because talented mages are rarer.

True, but you only need a handful of them. Pretty easy to get
them with a corp payroll.

>3)because there are LOTS of things for them to do

Not for these talented summoners. Just like Colonel Sanders, they
just do one thing and do it well.

>4) You obviously haven't read the Dilbert Principle. :)

Yeah yeah. If I wanted /incompetent/ corp management, I wouldn't be
bothering with this. :-)

>>(i) mages are sort-of rare (although that one in a hundred number, divided
>> into /billions/ of people, isn't so small...)

>Oh, you saw this.. Opps. But add in the rarity of talent, and their wages,
>and the fact that a mage is human, and is likely going to want to research
>something HE wants, and not be on call to monitor the site 4 hours a night
>against "rare" break in attempts...

My first-run on this elite team gives them two-thirds of their time off. A
third of that (likely :-) goes to sleep. That gives them one day out of every
three off to do.... whatever.

>>You are round-about making my point for me. IF the rules are as stated and
>>IF the runners ever engage such a corp (which isn't that much of a stretch,
>>is it? It's gotta happen sooner or later, unless you stick to runs against
>>McHugh's all the time :-), THEN the runners WILL get toasted because of said
>>firepower.

>NO. because the runners WILL KNOW that where they are going is among the
>top notch of security, and will plan ahead. You yourself said that it
>wasn't too difficult to defeat the elementals. That wasn't your point.

The problem is that you can only plan ahead so much. You might /know/ that
Godzilla is waiting to eat you on this run. But that may not do squat for
helping you beat Godzilla.

The problem is that, even with an elite team of "elemental-bashers", you
can only hold off so many elementals. Since a big-8 corp can get greater
than 150 force levels of elementals on their ass, it seems like one can
never run against a major asset of a big-8 corp EVER. If you do (and you
set off an alarm), you die.

Heck, what are these "elemental-bashers" doing when mundane security is
blasting them while their going hand-to-hand with Freddie the Fire Elemental?
:-)

My problem is that, if a team cannot ever run against a big-8 corp facility
without a 99%+ chance of death, it takes away one of the key elements in
SR. (Hey, sooner or later, everyone wants to take their best shot at the
Arcology... :-) If the rules, played out to their logical ends, don't allow
for this element to occur, then they must be wrong. This is what gets me
to the conclusion that the "icing" of elementals is a Bad Thing (TM).

>>THEREFORE, since the runners getting toasted with a high degree of probability
>>(unless they do something patently stupid) is undesirable, the rules as
>>stated, MUST BE wrong or unacceptable.

>Where's the high probability? We're talking about a defeatable defense (the
>elementals) in rare locations.>

How defeatable is a 150+ force level group of elementals along with whatever
mundane security is around? Yikes! :-)

>I don't think you are. Your comments show you consider everything we've
>said...(better than I did :) ) I just think you don't consider some of the
>elements (the risk of free elementals, for one) as large as we do (the risk
>to the mage is two, and the price and value of the mages service is three)

Using the elite team model, the price and value of the mage services is
very affordable to a corp. If we can't agree on that, then we just have
to agree to disagree. :-)

The risk to the mage, while astral with his elementals, is low (as far as
corp security goes). You f*ck with him, you f*ck with his whole family
of elementals... It's not like you can just shoot him - he's astral. To
get to him, you must almost certainly get thru all of his elementals first.

The free elemental issue is an interesting one and one I'm not entirely
familiar with. To me, the discussion on spirits and elementals in the Grimmy
and Awakenings always struck me as bass-ackward. It seemed like, with each
new sourcebook, they were endeavoring to place more and more constraints
on the wholesale use of elementals. Where, to me, it seemed like the elegant
solution was just to prevent the "icing" of elementals. It is quicker, cleaner
and simpler than all of the pages of mumbo-jumbo in the extra sourcebooks.

If one wants to add free elementals and etc., to one's game, it's easier (and
safer, from a game balance aspect) to add them on as a separate mechanic rather
than make them a necessary balance to a flawed (IMHO) rule ("icing").

- Brett

Message no. 70 >>> costs for summoning those elementals. And, you can always
>>> take away his money (some net burglar hits *his* bank
>>> account this week, or some critter breaks into his room
>>And if you think this might be a bit too cruel it wouldn't totally deprive
>>him of his funds unless teh decker was really good, the bank would be
>>insured against theft. What it might do though is freeze up his assets for
>>a certain time (say till the end of the run <evil gm grin> :)

Or (really radical idea), one could let him keep his high powered elementals
since he did spend the time, money and effort to conjure them! ;)

Gav

Message no. 71 SH>with one service? After he manifests, he's gone. (manifestation=one
SH>service)

that's misleading, though. Elementals, when called, stay astral, and you
can tell your fire elemental to "burn that door down" and he will
manifest to do it. But you're right, just telling it to manifest will be
a service. Kinda like genies that way. Ya gotta watch your wordings.
(or thought-ings, since you dont have to speak.)
-cyberspunk
SPACE COAST Online 407-773-1042 Telnet Spacecst.net WWW - http://Spacecst.net

Message no. 72 >Just one fact no one seems to have considered -- DRAIN. Unless all the NPC
>mages are running around with charismas of 5+, the chances are decent that
>conjuring an elemental of force 10+ will KILL THEM. The same goes for PC

No, we haven't forgotten. The key is, although they are rare, there
/do/ exist mages with charismas of 5+ and summoning skill of 5+. In
fact, one would expect a high degree of correlation between the two.
After all, what mage is going to learn conjuring up to levels of 5 or
6 if they have a charisma of 2? It would just be too painful... :-)

My point is that, talented conjurers with the mindset to put in this
time would be rare, but they WOULD exist. And all a corp needs is
a few of them to create the entire set of problems that we've been
discussing.

I agree that Joe Average Mage/Conjurer wouldn't touch this job with a
ten-foot pole.

- Brett

Message no. 73 LIMITATIONS ON ELEMENTAL CONJURING

COST: Elemental summoning material are not cheap, and getting enough of them
to call in a really BIG elemental could be a problem. Even if the character
does have all of the cred to do it, a talismonger might not have all of the
necessary materials on hand. Even if they do, it is very possible that word
could hit the street that there is a BIG summoning going down (make sure you
deal with a talismonger you trust).

REFERENCE: A conjuring library is required equal to the force of the spirit
to be summoned. A Rating 10 Conjuring Library has an Availability of 10 and a
cost of 100,000 nuyen. It is something (in my games, at least) only available
at a serious corp research facility, major university library or powerful
magical order like the Illuminates of the New Dawn. Again, buying such a
library off the street could tip someone off that something big is going
down. Buying it through legit channels certainly would do so.

SPACE: A high Rating hermetic circle is pretty big. As someone pointed out,
Rating 10 is 13 meters in diameter, requiring a big, empty warehouse or a
large open field to set it up in. Acquiring such a large space that can
remain undisturbed for a long enough time should be a challenge for most
shadowrunners.

TIME: High Force summonings take a lot of time. 8-10 hours on a ritual is
very demanding, especially when the ritual has to be uninterrupted. That
means no cell phone, no email, no conversations, nothing. If nothing else, it
means that the mage is effectively incommunicado for that time, and a LOT can
happen in a few hours in the fast-paced Sixth World.

Now, all of these limitations are primarily ones on player characters. As has
been pointed out, why don't the corporate spellworms (who have nearly
unlimited time, money and space from a street point-of-view) just whistle up
mucho macho elementals and keep them "on ice" until they're needed to kick
some shadowrunner ass? Here's a couple possibilities:

DRAIN: Since conjuring drain is measured according to the mage's Charisma
(not Willpower or Magic Attribute), summoning a very powerful spirit means a
mage possibly letting himself in for a world of hurt. A Force over the mage's
Charisma is Serious physical drain, while more than twice that is Deadly.
If we take the Former Wage Mage archetype as a "typical" corp mage, then
you're talking someone with a Charisma of 1! Let's be kind and take the best
Charisma of the mage archetypes in the SRII book, which the Street Mage with
a 3. That means a Force 4 Elemental is 3 dice against 4S Physical Drain
(minimum of a light wound). A Force 7 is 3 dice against 7D drain (minimum of
a serious wound, with at least 2 successes needed to avoid DEATH). And that
drain is regardless of whether the summoning is successful or not (SRII,
p.139).
Now, personally, if I were a mage, I wouldn't care much for those odds.
One thing we tend to over look as players is that damage (especially physical
damage) HURTS and it's frightening. Few if any corp employees are going to
risk serious injury or even death just to call up a few powerful elementals.
Nor is any sane corp going to risk the serious injury or death of an asset as
important as a trained mage for some piddling elemental, especially when a
dead mage will also result in a powerful, uncontrolled and likely pissed off
spirit (see Control, below).
Yeah, sure, you say, but what about the Charisma 6+ mages? What about
Increase Charisma spell locks and quickenings? What about spirit foci and
drek like that? Yes, all of those are possibilities to reduce the drain and
make more powerful elementals likely. If you have a Grade 3 initiate with a
Charisma of 6, Increase Charisma +3 quickened on him and a Rating 6 Spirit
Focus to aid conjuring, you can reasonably call up a Force 9 elemental for a
mere (!) 9M drain. But, IMHO, if you have mages like this in every corp R&D
department and security branch, then powerful elementals are the least of
your worries. Such ultra-powerful mages should be rare, otherwise you are
going to have lots of powerful spirits.
If every NPC mage in your game has Charisma 6 to resist drain, then
you've got a definite problem, but it's not very realistic. Sure, we get to
choose characters' stats, but in real life, there are going to be a large
percentage of mages who are not charismatic and just not all that good at
summoning.

CONTROL: Agrippa once said, "Do not call up that which you cannot put down."
And it's sound conjuring advice for mages. Corporations and corporate mages
tend to be control-freaks, they like to stay in control of situations and
don't like too many unnecessary risks. For most, summoning a Force 8+ spirit
would be considered an unnecessary risk. There is the possibility of injury
to the mage, damage to corporate property if the spirit goes uncontrolled and
perhaps worse if the spirit becomes a freebie.
Why take that risk when you know you can safely summon lesser Force
spirits that can do the job nearly as well. Two Force 4 elementals can be as
good (if not better) than a single Force 8 at virtually no risk to the
company, it's employees or its assets. Any good corp is going to err on the
conservative side.
If a powerful (Force 8+) spirit DOES get out of control, either because
the summoning botched or the unique and powerful mage who called the spirit
got KOed or geeked, then the corp has got a real problem on their hands. The
average (non-initiate) mage is going to be at a fair disadvantage in a
banishing contest against a Force 8 spirit, much less a Force 10 (to say
nothing of a freebie, who can't be banished at all unless its true name is
known). In the meantime, the spirit is wrecking havoc with the corp's
property or, worse yet, running amok through the streets.
Since UCAS law (and that of other nations, no doubt) holds a summoner
responsible for the actions or his/her spirits, the corp is liable for any
damage or injury caused by an uncontrolled elemental of theirs. If for no
other reason than that, I can see the corp's legal department issuing memos
limiting the power of summonings "to reduce the company's potential fiscal
liability." I bet the UCAS feds would just LOVE to be able to pin an
uncontrolled "elemental rampage" on one of the megacorps and force them to
pay through the nose for it.
Worse than uncontrolled spirits are powerful spirits that become
freebies who are hostile to their summoner and, perhaps, his or her parent
corporation. Who wants to risk having a powerful spirit out in the shadows
who has it in for your company? At the least you have to expend the resources
needed to kill or control the rogue, at worst, you've got a nigh-unstoppable
enemy that makes most shadowrunners look harmless.

I hope that helps. I know that it doesn't change much for SR games that are
high-power, high-property damage and high-body count but, IMHO, if the system
is stretched too far, you're going to get some pretty unreasonable results.

Steve (speaking entirely of his own opinion, and not official-FASA-anything)

Message no. 74 Gurth writes

> I find the rules for this a bit vague -- they talk about the elemental
> "hanging around" (SRII p.141), but does this mean it is placed on stand-by
> in "parts unknown" waiting for the mage to call it,
This is what it means, read GR2 p86 -90 odd. all sorts of usful
answers there.

> or does it mean the
> elemental is in astral or physical space close to the mage but isn't
> performing any services? In the former, _any_ elemental would only stick
> around for a couple of days, in the latter you could keep them bonded for
> years by never calling on them.
correct you can do this.

More generally :
The real thing against huge stables of high powered elementals for
corp mages is cost and who is going to accept taking a serious wound
(to summon > charisma) 'just as part of the days work!' sure secruity
work means you may get shot at one day, summoning a force 10
elemenatal ENSURES you are going to hurt.

The one that is worth corps doing is the perm bound elementals (see
thats section GR2 again) that is used for the permanent patrols in
DNA/DOA. In apirs they last till killed.
Do note that most astral security of this nature is instructed only
to deal with astral intrusion, accidents involving the force 10 fire
elemental and head researcher working late get expensive :)
The best solution to ridiculous astral security is therefore no
astral activity! sure once they see you they can call the backup and
manifest stuff after you but co-ordinated fire can kill spirits and
losing 20 initatives on manifestaion against a wired sammie is
leathal!

>
> Also, you can lengthen the service of a bound elemental, but the rules
> for it are almost exactly the same as for summoning a new one (Grimoire
> p.65). I would probably (this has never come up when I GMed) make the
> ritual easier than conjuring a new spirit, to make the magician keep the
> same elementals around for a longer time.
>
Again to be found in the 'more rules and explanations section of GR2'

Mark

Message no. 75 <skip whole mash>

Your point about the elementals being disrupted:

disruption takes an elemental 28-force days to come back from, barring
intervention by an astral quest (G2.)

So if you try to call back the force 5 earth elemental that just got
creamed by the force 10 air elemental, you've got a surprise coming.

Second, I don't think destruction by the opposite type counts as
disruption per se. more like complete [insert correct spelling of
anialation here].

Message no. 76 On Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:07:45 -0500 Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
writes:

[snip LIMITS ON ELEMENTAL CONJURING, very good BTW]

WRT "Control"...I think you just gave me a good idea. High force, free
elemental decides to exact some sort of spiritly revenge against his
"oppressors" and hires the runners for a few runs. I always wanted to
have the player's work for some sort of really strange fixer/johnson..

>
>Steve (speaking entirely of his own opinion, and not
official-FASA-anything)
>

~Tim

Message no. 77 On Thu, 30 Jan 1997 13:55:28 +0800 Gavin Lewis <lewis@**.EDU.AU> writes:
>>>> costs for summoning those elementals. And, you can always
>>>> take away his money (some net burglar hits *his* bank
>>>> account this week, or some critter breaks into his room
>>>And if you think this might be a bit too cruel it wouldn't totally
deprive
>>>him of his funds unless teh decker was really good, the bank would be
>>>insured against theft. What it might do though is freeze up his assets
for
>>>a certain time (say till the end of the run <evil gm grin> :)
>
>Or (really radical idea), one could let him keep his high powered
elementals
>since he did spend the time, money and effort to conjure them! ;)

Hey! No rational thinking! What do you think this is?

>
>Gav
>

~Tim

Message no. 78 [just snipped the whole lot of it]

Oh....here we go, for who ever uses it and wonder's why corps don't have
stables of force 10+ elementals.....the "24 hour [house]rule". :-)

Basically the issues boil down to:
1) Cost. Magicians are rare, and expensive.

2) Magic is new. Like someone else said, most corps aren't equiped to
utilize magic to it's fullest potential, some even biased against it.

3) Elementals, if not on "guard duty" require the presence of the
conjuring mage. You can't have an elite conjuring team that never visits
the 'scene of the crime' as it were, they have to be in, relatively, LOS
to control the elementals - which makes them vulnerable to attack. (BTW,
I think it was Ashlock who mentioned grounding a damaging manipulation
into a patroling mage to destroy the command center...you can't cast DM's
in astral space, and thus they can't ground. But thats OK, just use a
combat spell.)

4) I don't know if there _IS_ a fourth point...

~Tim

Message no. 79 On Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:05:35 -0800 Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU>
writes:
>>Just one fact no one seems to have considered -- DRAIN. Unless all the
NPC
>>mages are running around with charismas of 5+, the chances are decent
that
>>conjuring an elemental of force 10+ will KILL THEM. The same goes for
PC
>
>No, we haven't forgotten. The key is, although they are rare, there
>/do/ exist mages with charismas of 5+ and summoning skill of 5+. In
>fact, one would expect a high degree of correlation between the two.
>After all, what mage is going to learn conjuring up to levels of 5 or
>6 if they have a charisma of 2? It would just be too painful... :-)

Except that he's the EXACT person you'd expect to try to get a high
skill. To compensate for his low charisma. If the guy's got a high
charisma, he doesn't necessarily NEED a terribly high skill to be fairly
effective.

>
>My point is that, talented conjurers with the mindset to put in this
>time would be rare, but they WOULD exist. And all a corp needs is
>a few of them to create the entire set of problems that we've been
>discussing.

Yup, the entire set of problems that could be rendered completely void
after one raid.
And after _that_ the corp is working at less than full strength for
considerably more than 10 hours.

>
>I agree that Joe Average Mage/Conjurer wouldn't touch this job with a
>ten-foot pole.
>
>- Brett
>

~Tim

Message no. 80 On Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:15:19 -0800 Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU>
writes:

[snip a whole lot of stuff about how it would be impossible to run
against any big corp with 150+ force points of elementals...thus pretty
much taking away the key elements of SR...the shadowruns.]

Well, it looks like you just argued yourself right out of the game. :)

>
>- Brett
>

~Tim
(I wonder if that's like proving you don't exist?)

Message no. 81 With respect to astral security, I just saw a good idea in the module One
Stage Before. A smaller company had something like a panic button which was
connected to some company called Hermetic Security Consultants or something
like that. When you push the button, an elemental comes and attacks
anything in astral space, or provide spell defense. The difference between
Docwagon or Lone Star, it takes one combat turn for the cavalry to arrive.
This could also be used for regular combat mages, but would probably be
considered too risky for them to leave the site.

This could make astral security cheaper for a smaller company because they
don't have to hire mages, and they won't need to use the button too much.
Perhaps paying a small flat rate for the button, and an extra fee everytime
it is pushed. Of course, the mundane security guard will have to see an
astral intruder, or guess someone is a mage before they hit the button.

Bigger companies could use this strategy for "in-house" operations and all
of the smaller shell companies they have scattered around the 'plex.

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com

Message no. 82 Mail*Link® SMTP RE>>High Powered Elementals

Top of the line here is too lethal. That's my problem. The combination of
power and mobility is too hard to beat. Heck, it's hard enough to =
rationalize
how runners don't go <squish> w/o the elementals around when an alarm goes
off. /With/ such a powerful and mobile force available on top of it, it's
over before it begins.

>Your runners shouldn't be trying something so hard without being good
>enough...at least two magical initiates, with enough Karma to survive a =
few
>rounds....If they play their cards right, their fine. (Say....a decker =
to
>stop the alarm, redirect it, etc...No elementals!)

>>But it doesn't /have/ to be zero-zero zones. It's not /that/ expensive. =
Plus,
>>astral mages and their Astral Armies (TM) are /extremely/ mobile. All it
>>takes is one good alarm and any "worthy" corp holding and it's goodbye
>>runners.

=========================
=========================
=========================
========
This problem is null persperation. I need 2 deckers 1 gang and an astral =
assasin mage more than my penetration team.
1st decker sets off decoy alearts at mucho important site.
corp mage boy takes his astral possie to secure the area finds nothing =
there.
2 mins later the gang I hired starts making a fuss at mucho important site =
2 while astral mage waits in ambush along the path between the two sites.
He lets the mage and the possie pass and waits until they begin to engage =
the gangwhile most of the Elementals are busy trashing gangers he pops off =
a, oh lets say force 12 manablast at the mage's back since this guy is =
such a conjuring specialist I'll give ya 2 to 1 odds he's not that good at =
spell chucking and he's taking at least a serious wound plus a few of the =
elementals being hurt as well. Now the true run starts where we use =
stealth to avoid setting off any alarms anyway. If I was feeling really par=
anoid i might have 1 or 2 more decoys,go off first and posably add a =
second astral mage to ensure success in taking down the conjurer.
Now after I gak 3 or 4 conjurer's this way how many do you think are gonna =
take this job.
You might get this kind of astral security at a few sites but it certainly =
won't be common

Message no. 83 >>No, we haven't forgotten. The key is, although they are rare, there
>>/do/ exist mages with charismas of 5+ and summoning skill of 5+. In
>>fact, one would expect a high degree of correlation between the two.
>>After all, what mage is going to learn conjuring up to levels of 5 or
>>6 if they have a charisma of 2? It would just be too painful... :-)

>Except that he's the EXACT person you'd expect to try to get a high
>skill. To compensate for his low charisma. If the guy's got a high
>charisma, he doesn't necessarily NEED a terribly high skill to be fairly
>effective.

Are you joking? The guy who routine bleeds from open sores as a result
of conjuring a force one or two elementals? The guy who could DIE from
conjuring a force four elemental?

***THIS*** is the guy who's going to go on and become an trained
conjurer???

This isn't a case of compensating for a low charisma. This is a case of
a guy moving on to a job more suited to his nature (attributes).

And what do you mean a high charisma guy doesn't need a high conjuring
skill to be fairly effective? It's kinda hard to reel in the "big fish"
rolling only one or two dice, doncha think?

>>
>>My point is that, talented conjurers with the mindset to put in this
>>time would be rare, but they WOULD exist. And all a corp needs is
>>a few of them to create the entire set of problems that we've been
>>discussing.

>Yup, the entire set of problems that could be rendered completely void
>after one raid.

I don't think you've read a thing I wrote. The resources necessary to
render the defense "void" are far greater than the resources necessary to
make the defense in the first place.

I can sure see CEO's authorizing 10 million nuyen of expenditures to nullify
1 million nuyen of the competitors. Yup - there's good business sense for
you. ;-)

>And after _that_ the corp is working at less than full strength for
>considerably more than 10 hours.

And whatever you sent in is DEAD - that is, working at zero strength FOREVER.

- Brett

Message no. 84 >While most mages don't have charisma's of 6+ or conjuring skills of 6+,
>some /do/. And all a corp has to do is a get a handful of these people
>on the payroll. Sure, Joe Average Mage doesn't (or can't) want to summon
>up mongo-elementals or take 10S physical damage. But there are always
>these sick and twisted types that love to push the envelope that DO
>like to try this. And since it only takes a handful of these types to
>create this problem, the unlikeliness of the average mage to be able
>and willing is not a concern.

Wait, I thought you were arguing that the problem was that there were far
MORE than "a handful".

So your talking about an extremely skilled mage who enjoys pushing the
envelope of danger who works for a corp, and is willing to go through 100
ten hour rituals to get maybe 8 services from a force 10 elemental, which
will probably RARELY ever be used, and can get offed far easier than it was
summoned. (Did I mention the hospital time? And the bills? Those mages
are awfully tricky to heal.)

Yup, sounds like a serious game inbalance to me. Got tons of people fitting
that description. Corp LOVES paying them to do that as oppossed to grabbing
a few Force 6's. Yup, Mr. Corp wants that guy doing this summoning as
opposed to researching how to equip their troops with magical weapons...or
working up magical espionage against their competitors R+D...or learning how
to create a "metahuman cure" that the corp could sell for billions. Yup,
gotta love them force 10's.

Seriously though Brett (good name BTW :) ) I think we've shown that there
really isn't a problem....so the mage can keep elementals around forever?
So What? He has the advantage and weakness of having to prepare, while the
shaman has the advantage of tailoring the spirit to the moment, and the
weakness of having to wait until then. It's balanced.

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 85 >>>>> Also also, his charisma +3 lock helps with the drain?
>I just don't like the idea that magic helps with using magic like that.
>Foci are one thing, and I would be willing to allow someone to use their
>power focus to increase their conjuring agbilities before I'd allow them
>to use a spell for this. The same goes for Increase Willpower to resist
>spell drain. All IMO, of course.

One arguement is that since such spells don't affect astral
attributes....they don't affect magical activities...

-=SwiftOne=-
(I KNEW there was logic SOMEWHERE)

Message no. 86 On Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:04:26 -0800 Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU>
writes:

[snip bad example on my part]

>
>>Yup, the entire set of problems that could be rendered completely void
>>after one raid.
>
>I don't think you've read a thing I wrote. The resources necessary to
>render the defense "void" are far greater than the resources necessary
to
>make the defense in the first place.

On the contrary....

>I can sure see CEO's authorizing 10 million nuyen of expenditures to
nullify
>1 million nuyen of the competitors. Yup - there's good business sense
for
>you. ;-)

...I'm not talking about money...(and it certainly wouldn't take 10
million to do..)

>
>>And after _that_ the corp is working at less than full strength for
>>considerably more than 10 hours.
>
>And whatever you sent in is DEAD - that is, working at zero strength
FOREVER.

..yeah, true, but it most likely isn't ME.

>
>- Brett
>

Like Steve Collins said a little earlier, you set up a few
'distractions'. After the mages call down the "almighty elemental strike
team" - which eats up a service each I might add, how many of those force
10 elementals have more than 1 service left?

After tracking down several astral decoys, how many of those elementals
are left? How many times has the controlling mage had to poke his head
out of the safety of his building, risking grounding, ambush, etc...

The point is, with a little planning you can render that whole aspect of
their security _null and void_ for the time it takes them to restock.

(And again, the corp has to spend the money on materials, time, salary,
and health care all so that they can have a kick-butt security force that
lasts about 30 seconds - or how ever it takes for the specific service to
end - after being called on.)

Anyway this is getting pointless.

~Tim

Message no. 87 >Oh....here we go, for who ever uses it and wonder's why corps don't have
>stables of force 10+ elementals.....the "24 hour [house]rule". :-)

>4) I don't know if there _IS_ a fourth point...
Drain. You can't summon force 10's, or even attempt, w/o ending up
hospitalized for two weeks...

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 88 >great form; hence, no need for another astral quest. A fairly serious bonus
>for any gutsy mage who likes force 8 great form elementals.

Yeah! Like old Hardball!

Damn Shame, what happened to old Hardball....

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 89 >>Okay the problem seems to boil down too: You think runners hitting a high
>>sec installation will get cooked because one decent NPC mage can call in 50
>>force points worth of elementals...So lets go through it:
>
>Actually, more like 150 (from a group of these mages) if it's a big-8 corp.
>It's just 50 if it's "only" Acme Corp.

See all comments regarding drain. These guys will NOT be summoning Force
10's.

Also, the benefits provided just aren't worth having your mages summon their
max in spirits. Elementals tend to be rather weak.

>>I'd better have some watchers on hand...If I've got some
>Remember, these are big elementals. Are we bringing force 10 watchers to
>the party? :-)

No, I was counting on using the friends in melee rule. But lets move on...

>>a Nature Spirit to do the whole Confusion thing. Sure, he'll be gone in a
>>level this run requires coudl take down another Elemental (Whose Confused,
>>mind you) before the Nature Spirit goes.
>
>You're going to sneak in a force 10 nature spirit? One, you might not have the

Who said "Force 10" or "sneak"? Nature spirits don't take the time
that
elementals do, I'll get it on the spot. And I don't need Force 10 to
confuse the heck out of everyone.

>the job? Sure, granted, one can always get lucky with such an effect. But
??? I think you underestimate what even a Force 4 with Confuse can do...

>Yes, elementals are not killing machines - even force 10 ones - especially
>compared to a high WP sammy with cyber spurs or Astral Phys Adept with his
>force 4 weapon focus, "Ginsu-matic". But this is all on top of the
non-insignificant
>mundane security running around. It's /not/ just the runners vs. the
elementals.

Hmm...Elementals don't tend to be good team players with normal security.

>My players don't have Karma Pool, but that problem's unique to my situation.

No comment other than "ouch".

>That mage in astral might just be reserving initiative - waiting to <zotz>
>spells like that. And, even with karma/magic pools, don't underestimate how
>obnoxious TNs of 10 are. Only one of every 12 dice rolled scores a 10 or
higher.
>It's not too hard for the elementals to shake off the spell - assuming the
>runner mage gets it off in the first place.

See previous comments regarding drain. You'll have maybe TWO guys in
Seattle willing to try this. They both died. Without your Force 10's, the
elementals are pushovers.

>Top of the line here is too lethal. That's my problem. The combination of
>power and mobility is too hard to beat. Heck, it's hard enough to rationalize
>how runners don't go <squish> w/o the elementals around when an alarm goes
>off. /With/ such a powerful and mobile force available on top of it, it's
>over before it begins.

We target the MAGE. He goes SQUISH unless the elementals all defend him, in
which case you're kind of missing your own point....

>Again, I've got some issues with Karma Pool. And, yes, if the alarms are
>dealt with, then no elementals. But the first time that alarm ever gets
>tripped, goodbye runners.

...and how do you think assassins in the White House are treated? High
Magic Security is still High Security....SR is realistic about that.

>>as opposed to your Nuyen...And they don't melt the copier defending the
>>place (at least not often)
>
>But it impresses the corp secretaries... :-)

Have you talked to a secretary with a melted copier? No corp would risk
that...:)

>Yeah, the corp could get cyber-free jobbies for less. However, as they say,
>you get what you pay for. Crap security = successful runners. If they can't
>get the job done (and they can't - against good runners), then they don't
>get used for securing "prime" corporate holdings - no matter /how/ cheap
>they are.

But the point is meat security ISN'T crap. Bond a pair of Force 6
elementals to the site, and you've got security out the wazoo....why waste
the money, time, etc?

>But they /don't/ think the others are sufficient. They /can't/ think the
>others are sufficient. We've all seen what a good team does to non-enhanced
>guards and dobermans.

So who's unenhanced?

>Granted, internal corporate budget wars are something that I haven't
considered.
>A lot of the time, the runner's best friend is the short-sightedness of
>corp exec X. Or a feud between departments is keeping things from being
>as they should. That, too, is part of a good shadowrun world.

Profit is ALWAYS bottom line. These are corps...

>But you've got to draw the line somewhere. The guys at the top didn't get
>there by being stupid. And their pet projects (the "prime" corporate
holdings
>we're talking about) will get the good protection.

good, but there is also a line drawn there too....once they hit the "God
himself couldn't enter", why are they going to increase it? Esp. when the
mages are so hard to get, and are doing so much cutting edge research?

>Granted, low priority sites of big corps won't draw this type of protection.
>Neither will middle priority holdings of smaller corps. But the elite sites
>of middle corps or the middle-or-better sites of elite corps will draw this
>type of defense. And what kind of runners are going to knock-over the local
>liquor store over-and-over again?

Why are the elite sites going to draw talented mages who will go through the
repetative rituals? Whether I'm going through this ten hour ritual to guard
a dumpster or Mr. Shia-fragging-wase himself, _It's_ still boring, _I'm_
still a very talented mage, _I'm_ still in demand, and _I_ can pretty much
walk elsewhere.

>of thing, all it takes is a handful of mages that do. They not be common,
>but there are wacked-out mages out there who are great at summonning and
>would like nothing better than to "push the envelope" like this.

I think you underestimate both the number of people like this, and their
survival rate.

Stupid people breed, stupid mages die.

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 90 >SH>with one service? After he manifests, he's gone. (manifestation=one
>SH>service)
>
>that's misleading, though. Elementals, when called, stay astral, and you
>can tell your fire elemental to "burn that door down" and he will
>manifest to do it. But you're right, just telling it to manifest will be
>a service. Kinda like genies that way. Ya gotta watch your wordings.
>(or thought-ings, since you dont have to speak.)

False. You can "ORder" it to manifest, but it doesn't count as a Service.
The Services are very specifically listed in SRII. (And the astral security
thing in unspecifially mentioned in Grimmy)

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 91 >Are you joking? The guy who routine bleeds from open sores as a result
>of conjuring a force one or two elementals? The guy who could DIE from
>conjuring a force four elemental?

In this case you are correct...in RL, usually better skill fixes this. Not
here.

>>Yup, the entire set of problems that could be rendered completely void
>>after one raid.
>
>I don't think you've read a thing I wrote. The resources necessary to
>render the defense "void" are far greater than the resources necessary to
>make the defense in the first place.

Really? As I see it, you have a bunch of Force 10's sitting around with
large levels of services....all it takes is an opposing elemental at the
same force with _1_ service, and PIP! Bye bye!

>I can sure see CEO's authorizing 10 million nuyen of expenditures to nullify
>1 million nuyen of the competitors. Yup - there's good business sense for
>you. ;-)

As above, YOU'd be paying 10 mill, _I'd_ be paying 1 Mill.

>And whatever you sent in is DEAD - that is, working at zero strength FOREVER.

...and since _I_ sent it in, _I_ knew your defenses were down, and PIP! I'm
in, I'm out, and my corp trashed yours....

But we're digressing....

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 92 On 31 Jan 97 at 16:33, Tim P Cooper wrote:

> [just snipped the whole lot of it]
>
> Oh....here we go, for who ever uses it and wonder's why corps don't have
> stables of force 10+ elementals.....the "24 hour [house]rule". :-)
>
> Basically the issues boil down to:
> 1) Cost. Magicians are rare, and expensive.
I did some math, you guys let me know what you think of the following
numbers:
According to the Grimoire, p10 "by some accounts there are 3 to 4 million
fully trained, capable magicians in the world."
Of those, lets say about 1/4 are hermetic (as Steve has pointed out
elsewhere, the world has far more shamanic traditions than hermetic, 1/4
is probably high but I'm erring on that side deliberately), so that maybe
1 million capable hermetic mages.
Of those, lets say 80% are corp affiliates (serious college recruiting
programs, another reason for more shamanic magicians than hermetic,
hermetic requires intense study and education.), so that gives us 800,000
corp mages.
Corps have to strike a balance between their magical assets working R&D,
which makes money and security which costs money. Lets' say a 50-50
split, so now we're down to 400,000 corp sec mages.
Now lets say the Big Eight employ the lion share of those, call it 50% or
200,000. Keep in mind there are other AAA corps besides the big eight, as
well as AA corps (Corporate Shadowfiles).
Divide that between them, for brevity we'll make it even, and you get
25,000 sec mages.
Now how many sites does each corp have to protect. Renraku alone
probably has 4-5 secret sites in/near Seattle, plus that big arcology. If
that' par for major cites... and then all the secret sites spread around,
world wide I think 1000+ sites is a fair number. So that gives us 25 sec
mages per site. Divide that by 3 (for each 8 hour shift) and you've got
an average of 6 mages on duty per site at any given time. Out of that I
think it would be fair to assume that at least one on duty mage would have
a Charisma 6.

>
> 2) Magic is new. Like someone else said, most corps aren't equiped to
> utilize magic to it's fullest potential, some even biased against it.
>
> 3) Elementals, if not on "guard duty" require the presence of the
> conjuring mage. You can't have an elite conjuring team that never visits
> the 'scene of the crime' as it were, they have to be in, relatively, LOS
> to control the elementals - which makes them vulnerable to attack. (BTW,
> I think it was Ashlock who mentioned grounding a damaging manipulation
> into a patroling mage to destroy the command center...you can't cast DM's
> in astral space, and thus they can't ground. But thats OK, just use a
> combat spell.)
Um... two points. Combat spell would work, only affects targets you can
see. Second, where in the rules does it say you can't cast a DM in astral
space? I just got through reading the rules for it (Black Book,
pp149-150) and point of fact, it gave rules for manipulation spells cast
in the astral, as well as DM's in general. The magician could choose to
fight the spell (in astral space it's on object and so can be engaged in
melee), but that would be stupid. Melee combat is a complex action which
would effectively remove that mage from the battle for at least that
action (no commanding elementals, no spell casting, etc.). So far as I
know, the Grimoire and Awakenings did not change this.
--

Ashelock
mailto: woneal@*******.net

"They say it's a brave new world we're building. I say they're right,
and we'll all have to be pretty brave to live in it."

Message no. 93 On 29 Jan 97 at 17:01, Ashelock wrote:

> When opposite types of elementals engage, it becomes simple math. The
> higher force elemental has it's force reduced by the lower force
> elemental (which gets disrupted). However, since I got three success I
> can recall may disrupted elementals at full force.

Okay, I screwed up here so I'll correct myself. When two elementals of
opposing types engage in combat, they do get reduced. Combat is similar to
that of melee combat (ref. the Black Book, p143, Spirit Combat). Force
does get reduced (that part was correct and remains important).
However, my original arguement holds because of another rule (which was
what I was thinking of). Spirits may be healed by the expenditure of 1
service as per the Grimoire, p65, Healing Spirits. So as long as the mage
does this before the elemental is completely destroyed (Force reduced to 0)
then the elemental can continue to fight an repeatedly be "brough back" to
full strength. A more powerful elemental, say force 10, will likely not
have as many services as a lower force 4-5 elemental and so cannot be
healed. Simple attrition should do the rest.
How about it Mr. Barksdale, think that would level the playing field a
bit? Of course this assumes an equal number of mages and elementals. If
one side has more mages than the other... things get nasty very quickly.
Hmmm... how many shadowteams actually bother to hire extra muscle?
--

Ashelock
mailto: woneal@*******.net

"They say it's a brave new world we're building. I say they're right,
and we'll all have to be pretty brave to live in it."

Message no. 94 >what I was thinking of). Spirits may be healed by the expenditure of 1
>service as per the Grimoire, p65, Healing Spirits. So as long as the mage
>does this before the elemental is completely destroyed (Force reduced to 0)

Healing refers to boxes of damage, not to reduced force. I think it may say
that right there in the Grimmy.

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 95 > Now how many sites does each corp have to protect. Renraku alone
>probably has 4-5 secret sites in/near Seattle, plus that big arcology. If
>that' par for major cites... and then all the secret sites spread around,
>world wide I think 1000+ sites is a fair number. So that gives us 25 sec

This is the only place I disagree with your numbers...you are taking
"magically active" and ssuming they are only going to be in the big sites.
We were talking about the PRIME material magically here, no adepts, no
weaklings, not even average guys. Divide your number by 1,000
again...you're down to .0025 mages per site.

Of course there will be more mages....but they won't be of the powerlevel
we're talking about. Ergo, they won't necessarily be assigned to the big
sites.

>mages per site. Divide that by 3 (for each 8 hour shift) and you've got
>an average of 6 mages on duty per site at any given time. Out of that I
>think it would be fair to assume that at least one on duty mage would have
>a Charisma 6.

If you have 6, and assume one with charisma 6, you are assuming a lot.
Think "bell curve." And we are counting skill as well as charisma here.

In conclusion: Yes, there will be elementals at some higher sec sites. No,
save for 1-2 sites IN THE WORLD, you aren't going to find a mage packing a
full count of force 10 elementals.

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 96 At 09:26 1/29/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>Yup, there sure are :-). The downside is that it can be downright
>>dangerous to summon high force elementals. Say your average corp
>>wage mage conjurer-type has a Charisma and Conjuring of 6 each (when
>>you care enough to buy the very best...). Thats probably pretty
>>exceptional, but it will illustrate my point. If the mage trys to
>>summon anything with a force higher than 6, he takes PHYSICAL damage
>>from Drain. If he goes for a force higher than 12, we're talking
>>Deadly physical damage.
>>
>>I don't know about you, but I can think of a lot of things I'd rather
>>do than come to work and worry about Drain of 10S physical.
>>Renraku Mage: "So I can either conjure up a force 10 Fire Elemental
>>or cast Fashion on the CEO before his meeting?"
>
>While fun, casting Fashion on the CEO (who has his own, personal, mage
>assigned to him) probably isn't a smart thing to do. :-)
>
>>I think the answer is obvious. BTW, note that the majority of mages
>>don't have a conjuring or Charisma of 6. I think its a lot more
>>reasonable to expect corps to keep a stable of 3-5 force elementals,
>>with the occasional force 7 or 8 elemental for when runners try to
>>blow up the Arcology.
>
>While most mages don't have charisma's of 6+ or conjuring skills of 6+,
>some /do/. And all a corp has to do is a get a handful of these people
>on the payroll. Sure, Joe Average Mage doesn't (or can't) want to summon
>up mongo-elementals or take 10S physical damage. But there are always
>these sick and twisted types that love to push the envelope that DO
>like to try this. And since it only takes a handful of these types to
>create this problem, the unlikeliness of the average mage to be able
>and willing is not a concern.
>
>- Brett "youngin" Barksdale
>
>

One thing that I think alot of people are forgeting about this is that
any mage who summons force 8 or 9+ elementals and passes them off to get
used every day is probobly going to fall out of favor with the astral
powers that be or whatnot. Elementals will always be hostile and God help
him and his buddies if one ever gets free, and eventually they might just
stop coming. (This IS discussed in either SRII or the Grimoire, for both
shamans and hermetics I think, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

Oh, and BTW, I doubt that even corporate _mages_ get to come to work and
tell Mr. Johnson that they "just don't feel like summoning today :-)
Floating Head(fastjack@****.net)

"Just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you."

Message no. 97 On 1 Feb 97 at 23:50, Brett Borger wrote:

> >what I was thinking of). Spirits may be healed by the expenditure of 1
> >service as per the Grimoire, p65, Healing Spirits. So as long as the
> >mage does this before the elemental is completely destroyed (Force
> >reduced to 0)
>
> Healing refers to boxes of damage, not to reduced force. I think it may
> say that right there in the Grimmy.
>
Hmmm.... that one's open to interpretation I think. If you view the loss
in force as being the equivalent of banishing, then no it wouldn't "heal"
them. If you view the loss of force as being the elemental equivalent of
combat damage, then I'd say it would. I always thought the reduction of
force instead of them simply doing damage to each other was a little odd.
It may well be that FASA set it up that way to prevent exactly what I
suggested. If that's true, then unless runners can come up with an equal
number of mages, they are fragged anytime they go up against elite corp
mages. I'm not sure even the "24 hour" rule that Mr. Barksdale suggested
would help all that much.
--

Ashelock
mailto: woneal@*******.net

"They say it's a brave new world we're building. I say they're right,
and we'll all have to be pretty brave to live in it."

Message no. 98 Mail*Link® SMTP RE>>High powered elementals

Ashelock said
> I did some math, you guys let me know what you think of the following =

> numbers:
> According to the Grimoire, p10 "by some accounts there are 3 to 4 =
million
> fully trained, capable magicians in the world."
> Of those, lets say about 1/4 are hermetic (as Steve has pointed out
> elsewhere, the world has far more shamanic traditions than hermetic, 1/4
> is probably high but I'm erring on that side deliberately), so that =
maybe
> 1 million capable hermetic mages.

Sounds good to this point but that was in 2050 by 2057 I'd say it's closer =
to 5 or 6 mil servicable mages and about 1.5 mil hermetics.

> Of those, lets say 80% are corp affiliates (serious college recruiting
> programs, another reason for more shamanic magicians than hermetic,
> hermetic requires intense study and education.), so that gives us =
800,000
> corp mages.

Ok here's where your first problem comes in. 80% corp affiliation is way =
too high. What about government and religious based ones not to mention =
the various types of freelancers out there (Terrorists, Shadowrunners, Wiz =
gangers, etc.) it's probably closer to 45% corp affiliation, 30% =
government affilitation, 5% religiously affiliated, and 20% for the =
various freelancers. This leaves us with, if we assume 6 mil mages in 57, =
675,000 corp hermetics running around out there.

> Corps have to strike a balance between their magical assets working =
R&D,
> which makes money and security which costs money. Lets' say a 50-50
> split, so now we're down to 400,000 corp sec mages.

This would seriously vary by company but a 50-50 split averaged out over =
the whole world sounds within reason. It's probably between 60-40 to 40-60 =
so that makes a good average. This drops us to 337,500 corp security mages =
in the world

> Now lets say the Big Eight employ the lion share of those, call it 50% =
or
> 200,000. Keep in mind there are other AAA corps besides the big eight, =
as
> well as AA corps (Corporate Shadowfiles).

O.K. here you are WAY too high as well. Yes the Big 8 pretty much run the =
world but there are thousands of other company's in the world rich enough =
to have some level of magsec, some of them not much smaller than the Big 8 =
themselves. The Big 8 probably have closer to 30%, The other AAA and AA =
corps probably make up another 40%, with the remaining 30% going to =
everybody else. This gives the Big 8 a hair over 100,000 security mages.

> Divide that between them, for brevity we'll make it even, and you get
> 25,000 sec mages.

Ok this is the only way to really do it (It'll be close enough anyway) so =
now we are down to 12,500 security mages world wide per corp.

> Now how many sites does each corp have to protect. Renraku alone
> probably has 4-5 secret sites in/near Seattle, plus that big arcology. =
If
> that' par for major cites... and then all the secret sites spread =
around,
> world wide I think 1000+ sites is a fair number. So that gives us 25 =
sec
> mages per site. Divide that by 3 (for each 8 hour shift) and you've got
> an average of 6 mages on duty per site at any given time. Out of that I
> think it would be fair to assume that at least one on duty mage would =
have
> a Charisma 6.

I think 1000 sites is probably pretty close for the Big 8. But you must =
remember that probably less than 1/2 of these Mages would be assinged to =
"site security" in the way we are talking. Some of them would be Personal =
Bodyguards, Desert Wars forces, Investigators, Internal Security, Ward =
Specialist's, Strike Teams, etc. So we get 6 mages per site average and =
only 2 per shift. Now what percentage of Mages have the 6+ CHR and 6+ =
Conjuring. My guess would be around 15 to 20 %. This Gives each of the Big =
8 about 2000 of these super conjurers world wide now if ALL of them were =
formed into these 12 man Elite Conjuring teams the original poster was =
talking about, using up 15% of the Corps total magical security assets, =
they would get about 165 teams each. Just about 1 per major city in the =
world. It should Just be possable for the Corps to do what he was =
proposing but would they? That's a HUGE investment for a minor improvement =
in the security you would get if you just put 2000 more mages on the front =
lines
not to mention the other costs of maintaining these teams. No each of the =
Big 8 would probably have something like these teams but maybe 20 to 30 =
world wide and they get shuffled to where Intelligence says a large =
magical Threat is likely to pop up in the near future.

Steve

Message no. 99 On 2 Feb 97 at 18:05, Steve Collins wrote:

> Mail*Linkr SMTP RE>>High powered elementals
>
> Ashelock said
> > I did some math, you guys let me know what you think of the following
> >
> > numbers:
> > According to the Grimoire, p10 "by some accounts there are 3 to 4
> > million
> > fully trained, capable magicians in the world."
> > Of those, lets say about 1/4 are hermetic (as Steve has pointed out
> > elsewhere, the world has far more shamanic traditions than hermetic,
> > 1/4 is probably high but I'm erring on that side deliberately), so that
> > maybe 1 million capable hermetic mages.
>
> Sounds good to this point but that was in 2050 by 2057 I'd say it's
> closer to 5 or 6 mil servicable mages and about 1.5 mil hermetics.
I'm not sure I'd increase it by 2 million in only 7 years. That's a
phenomenal growth rate. OTOH, with increased acceptance of magic and more
education being offered, it might engender such a growth rate. Let's
split the difference and call if 5 million, that's a pretty big number to
play with.

>
> > Of those, lets say 80% are corp affiliates (serious college
> > recruiting
> > programs, another reason for more shamanic magicians than hermetic,
> > hermetic requires intense study and education.), so that gives us
> > 800,000 corp mages.
>
> Ok here's where your first problem comes in. 80% corp affiliation is way
> too high. What about government and religious based ones not to mention
> the various types of freelancers out there (Terrorists, Shadowrunners,
> Wiz gangers, etc.) it's probably closer to 45% corp affiliation, 30%
> government affilitation, 5% religiously affiliated, and 20% for the
> various freelancers. This leaves us with, if we assume 6 mil mages in 57,
> 675,000 corp hermetics running around out there.
Like I said at the top, I deliberately erred on the side of
overestimating it and assumed that those of us interested in this thread
would narrow it down from there. I had overlooked government mages and
hadn't really considered religious. That also brings to mind policlubs
and special interest groups powerful enough to employ mages full time
(such as the Black Lodge). Oh.. and another we forgot, those involved in
education. How's this then:
40% Corp affiliated
30% Govn. affiliated
10% Special Interests (religious, policlubs, etc.)
5% Education
15% Other (shadowrunners, small business, self employed, etc.)

>
> > Corps have to strike a balance between their magical assets working
> > R&D,
> > which makes money and security which costs money. Lets' say a 50-50
> > split, so now we're down to 400,000 corp sec mages.
>
> This would seriously vary by company but a 50-50 split averaged out over
> the whole world sounds within reason. It's probably between 60-40 to
> 40-60 so that makes a good average. This drops us to 337,500 corp
> security mages in the world
Agreed, a more accurate estimation would have to be done by company. If
you have Corporate Shadowfiles, check the ratings given for Magical
Services and Magical Security, that should give a clearer indication of
the importance each of the Big 8 place on magic.

>
> > Now lets say the Big Eight employ the lion share of those, call it
> > 50% or
> > 200,000. Keep in mind there are other AAA corps besides the big eight,
> > as well as AA corps (Corporate Shadowfiles).
>
> O.K. here you are WAY too high as well. Yes the Big 8 pretty much run the
> world but there are thousands of other company's in the world rich enough
> to have some level of magsec, some of them not much smaller than the Big
> 8 themselves. The Big 8 probably have closer to 30%, The other AAA and AA
> corps probably make up another 40%, with the remaining 30% going to
> everybody else. This gives the Big 8 a hair over 100,000 security mages.
<smile> No arguements from me.

>
> > Divide that between them, for brevity we'll make it even, and you get
> > 25,000 sec mages.
>
> Ok this is the only way to really do it (It'll be close enough anyway) so
> now we are down to 12,500 security mages world wide per corp.
You might get a more accurate division with Corp Shadowfiles, using the
ratings as an indication. But for our purposes an even division is good
enough.

>
> > Now how many sites does each corp have to protect. Renraku alone
> > probably has 4-5 secret sites in/near Seattle, plus that big arcology.
> > If that' par for major cites... and then all the secret sites spread
> > around, world wide I think 1000+ sites is a fair number. So that gives
> > us 25 sec mages per site. Divide that by 3 (for each 8 hour shift) and
> > you've got an average of 6 mages on duty per site at any given time.
> > Out of that I think it would be fair to assume that at least one on
> > duty mage would have a Charisma 6.
>
>
> I think 1000 sites is probably pretty close for the Big 8. But you must
Actually, that number was a guess on my part. I suppose we could come up
with some kind of a more accurate number. Maybe say 2-6 sites per major
city x # of major cities in the world. Anybody care to get out an Atlas
and start counting?

> remember that probably less than 1/2 of these Mages would be assinged to
> "site security" in the way we are talking. Some of them would be Personal
> Bodyguards, Desert Wars forces, Investigators, Internal Security, Ward
> Specialist's, Strike Teams, etc. So we get 6 mages per site average and
Hmm... agreed. We could almost turn this discussion into a sourcebook.
I like your thinking, it makes sense to me and has plenty of basis in
existing material.

> only 2 per shift. Now what percentage of Mages have the 6+ CHR and 6+
> Conjuring. My guess would be around 15 to 20 %. This Gives each of the
I did a little educating guessing and came up with the following based on
3 being the average attrib. Rating of 1 (5%), Rating of 2 (15%), Rating
of 3 (45%), Rating of 4 (20%), Rating of 5 (10%) & Rating of 5 (5%).
Admittedly those are basically arbitrary guess, but it's probably in the
ball park. So that would be about 5% of those mages with a CHR of a 6.

> Big 8 about 2000 of these super conjurers world wide now if ALL of them
> were formed into these 12 man Elite Conjuring teams the original poster
> was talking about, using up 15% of the Corps total magical security
> assets, they would get about 165 teams each. Just about 1 per major city
> in the world. It should Just be possable for the Corps to do what he was
> proposing but would they? That's a HUGE investment for a minor
> improvement in the security you would get if you just put 2000 more mages
> on the front lines not to mention the other costs of maintaining these
> teams. No each of the Big 8 would probably have something like these
> teams but maybe 20 to 30 world wide and they get shuffled to where
> Intelligence says a large magical Threat is likely to pop up in the near
> future.
Agreed. Such teams would likely be used as High Threat Response teams
(to borrow a term from DocWagon), called in only when the drek really hits
the fan AND there is a major asset at risk. The best defense for runners
would be to plan in advance and create some sort of diversion to draw this
"HRT" off on a wild "spirit" chase. Baring that, set up an ambush and
dry
gulch them.

Tip o' the hat Steve Collins.
--

Ashelock
mailto:woneal@*******.net

"They say it's a brave new world we're building. I say they're right,
and we'll all have to be pretty brave to live in it."

Message no. 100 Glenn Royer writes
>
> that's misleading, though. Elementals, when called, stay astral, and you
> can tell your fire elemental to "burn that door down" and he will
> manifest to do it. But you're right, just telling it to manifest will be
> a service. Kinda like genies that way. Ya gotta watch your wordings.

I don't see why, just call the thing to you while your astral
perception is off, it will have to manifest so you can communicate
with it, this cannot be a problem as otherwise conjouring adepts
would be a touch impossible to play!

Mark

Message no. 101 >Oh, and BTW, I doubt that even corporate _mages_ get to come to work and
>tell Mr. Johnson that they "just don't feel like summoning today :-)
>Floating Head(fastjack@****.net)

No, but he can say "the alignment of the auric wave patterns today render
conditions most unsafe for summoning. I can try and pierce the astral
barrier if you want, but I won't be held responsible for the likely property
damage. Will you?"

And mr. corp will say "um...No, that's alright. How about you just spiffy
up this suit for my next meeting, and, um.....take a break." (accompanied
with nervous looking around)

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 102 >>Oh, and BTW, I doubt that even corporate _mages_ get to come to work and
>>tell Mr. Johnson that they "just don't feel like summoning today :-)
>>Floating Head(fastjack@****.net)

>No, but he can say "the alignment of the auric wave patterns today render
>conditions most unsafe for summoning. I can try and pierce the astral
>barrier if you want, but I won't be held responsible for the likely property
>damage. Will you?"

>And mr. corp will say "um...No, that's alright. How about you just spiffy
>up this suit for my next meeting, and, um.....take a break." (accompanied
>with nervous looking around)

Well, yes, if you pattern your corp management after _Dilbert_, then
I suppose this could happen. If not, then this is an extreme exception
to the norm.

- Brett

Message no. 103 Brett Barksdale wrote:

<Snip>

> >No, but he can say "the alignment of the auric wave patterns today render
> >conditions most unsafe for summoning. I can try and pierce the astral
> >barrier if you want, but I won't be held responsible for the likely property
> >damage. Will you?"

> >And mr. corp will say "um...No, that's alright. How about you just spiffy
> >up this suit for my next meeting, and, um.....take a break." (accompanied
> >with nervous looking around)

> Well, yes, if you pattern your corp management after _Dilbert_, then
> I suppose this could happen. If not, then this is an extreme exception
> to the norm.

> - Brett

I disagree. Mages are some of the most valued employees in any
corporation in Shadowrun. They are rare and powerful in ways only other
mages can truly defend against. In order to beat their competitors they
will need to keep up with the Jones' (Johnson's?) and will be very
reluctant to force a mage to do anything too far out of line. However,
that doesn't mean that they won't dig up whatever dirt they can to have
blackmail material, etc. ;)

Keep in mind that wage mages are held in very high regard in
corporations...they can't go around killing fellow coworkers all the
time or anything, but they do have a wide birth.

Justin :)
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu

Message no. 104 >I disagree. Mages are some of the most valued employees in any
>corporation in Shadowrun. They are rare and powerful in ways only other
>mages can truly defend against. In order to beat their competitors they
>will need to keep up with the Jones' (Johnson's?) and will be very
>reluctant to force a mage to do anything too far out of line. However,
>that doesn't mean that they won't dig up whatever dirt they can to have
>blackmail material, etc. ;)

>Keep in mind that wage mages are held in very high regard in
>corporations...they can't go around killing fellow coworkers all the
>time or anything, but they do have a wide birth.

Agreed. But understand that a survival skill for management of any
sort is knowing when their "talent" is BSing them. Corps pay real
good money for mage talent. You can bet your /ass/ that they've
done a good job of documenting what's a "real" excuse and what's
horsepuckey.

And that Quality Assurance mage gets better nuyen than the rest to
make sure the mages aren't shameless abusing their management with
BS stories of "the ether isn't in alignment" or somesuch.

Mages get great treatment. But there are very real limits as to how
far it can go.

- Brett

Message no. 105 >>No, but he can say "the alignment of the auric wave patterns today render
>>conditions most unsafe for summoning. I can try and pierce the astral
>>barrier if you want, but I won't be held responsible for the likely property
>>damage. Will you?"
>Well, yes, if you pattern your corp management after _Dilbert_, then
>I suppose this could happen. If not, then this is an extreme exception
>to the norm.

Ignore my slightly sarcastic addition to the above, and realize I was saying
that magic is a force that is misunderstood, difficult to account for, and
incomprehensible to mundanes. The mage will answer to his magically active
superiors, but to mundanes? How will they know anything? Even simple
magical theory (mana vs physical, grounding, etc) has exceptions in the
rules, and doubtless more in the intracacies of real life. And don't think
for a moment that the average mage, esp corp mages, wants to remove any of
the mystery.

Besides, I speak from experience: Dilbert hasn't made Scott Adams a fortune
because it is UNLIKE real life. Under the exageration is the bald fact that
managment is often clueless to the task at hand, because of HOW you become
management. But again, this is beside the point I was trying to make.

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 106 >Agreed. But understand that a survival skill for management of any
>sort is knowing when their "talent" is BSing them. Corps pay real
>good money for mage talent. You can bet your /ass/ that they've
>done a good job of documenting what's a "real" excuse and what's
>horsepuckey.

<cough> Do you know any management? 50% of the workforce today LIVES by
BS'ing the boss as to what is work and what is not. As an example, a lot of
my posting for this list is technically done at work.

And as I said, How would a mundane "document" real vs. fake excuses? How
can he prove only a force 2 was cast rather than a force 6? How can he tell
whether the mage is faking the drain or not? And mage bosses are even more
rare than mages....

>And that Quality Assurance mage gets better nuyen than the rest to
>make sure the mages aren't shameless abusing their management with
>BS stories of "the ether isn't in alignment" or somesuch.

...and of course, this mage is everywhere at once.....Magic doesn't have
netadmin....

I'm not saying the mages never work....I'm just saying they can dictate a
lot more than you might think.

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 107 ><cough> Do you know any management? 50% of the workforce today LIVES by
>BS'ing the boss as to what is work and what is not.

Perhaps in /contemporary America/, this is true. But we're not talking
about that, are we? Granted, it'll still exist everywhere, but my view of
2057 isn't a /thing/ like today's America. The wage slave of 2057,
while he's not toiling away in some scene out of _1984_ or _Brazil_
is still in a large, conglomerate corporate society where everything
is carefully documented and all workers are monitored.

And while I agree that the mage will get a lot of special treatment, it's
not all peaches-n-cream. The corporate environment is not completely
unlike, say, the Mafia. You don't just quit your job at Renraku after
being a corp security or research mage. When you play hard ball, they
play /harder/ ball. Sure, they offer a luxury lifestyle, but it's a
gilded cage to some degree.

They're the ultimate private sector and they demand results. And with
all the money they pay to mages, you can bet that someone with all
the right magical skills is in charge of making sure the work is getting
done. No, there's no fat guy with a whip constantly yelling at them to
"row! row!". But if they try to slack off beyond parameters established
by the corporation, someone has a nice "chat" with them.

It's not like they're just going to be able to quit and take the next
best job offer out there. That's why runners have this lovely job
opportunity called "extractions". :-)

And when you don't have true free choice to quit and take a better offer,
it puts a whole new spin on how much they can lean on you, doesn't it?

>And as I said, How would a mundane "document" real vs. fake excuses? How
>can he prove only a force 2 was cast rather than a force 6? How can he tell
>whether the mage is faking the drain or not? And mage bosses are even more
>rare than mages....

But the heirarchy exists. Other than the top CEO's, I would wager
that mages DO, almost always, have mage bosses. Why do you think mage
bosses are rare? For every 6 wage slaves, there's a wage "leader". For
every 6 mages, there's a team leader. And so on. Mages might be rare,
but within that rare group itself, there's absolutely nothing to stop
the corp from placing X mages beneath one mage leader - Y mage leaders
underneath one magical dept head - Z magical dept heads under the
head of magical research.

But look out for head of magical research. Whoever is the highest ranking
mage in a corp has /tremendous/ leeway to do darn near anything. But
everyone below him does not have such latitude.

>I'm not saying the mages never work....I'm just saying they can dictate a
>lot more than you might think.

And I'm not saying that mages don't (generally) get a soft life, I'm
just saying that they don't have /nearly/ the leverage that you might
think. ;-)

- Brett

Message no. 108 >Perhaps in /contemporary America/, this is true. But we're not talking
>about that, are we? Granted, it'll still exist everywhere, but my view of
>2057 isn't a /thing/ like today's America. The wage slave of 2057,
>while he's not toiling away in some scene out of _1984_ or _Brazil_
>is still in a large, conglomerate corporate society where everything
>is carefully documented and all workers are monitored.

Difference of opinion....I have faith in the workers to do their best to
avoid work.
Not much more that can be said.

>play /harder/ ball. Sure, they offer a luxury lifestyle, but it's a
>gilded cage to some degree.

True.

>the right magical skills is in charge of making sure the work is getting
>done. No, there's no fat guy with a whip constantly yelling at them to
>"row! row!". But if they try to slack off beyond parameters established
>by the corporation, someone has a nice "chat" with them.

See below about these "parameters".

>It's not like they're just going to be able to quit and take the next
>best job offer out there. That's why runners have this lovely job
>opportunity called "extractions". :-)

True.

>>And as I said, How would a mundane "document" real vs. fake excuses?
How
>>can he prove only a force 2 was cast rather than a force 6? How can he tell
>>whether the mage is faking the drain or not? And mage bosses are even more
>>rare than mages....
>that mages DO, almost always, have mage bosses. Why do you think mage

I disagree. Someone listed a long list of jobs mages do....mainly providing
personal level magical effects for mundanes...no mage boss. Sure, some R
and D depts definitely will report to a mage boss....have you tried to judge
R+D work?

>underneath one magical dept head - Z magical dept heads under the
>head of magical research.

...but not the other 80% of the jobs mages will do.

>And I'm not saying that mages don't (generally) get a soft life, I'm
>just saying that they don't have /nearly/ the leverage that you might
>think. ;-)

hmm, we seem to differ on scale here: lets take it from the top.

I think the average mage worker can easily work below his full potential
without fear of repercussions. (say, 50% of potential).

You?

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 109 >Difference of opinion....I have faith in the workers to do their best to
>avoid work.
>Not much more that can be said.

Fair enough.

>I disagree. Someone listed a long list of jobs mages do....mainly providing
>personal level magical effects for mundanes...no mage boss. Sure, some R
>and D depts definitely will report to a mage boss....have you tried to judge
>R+D work?

Personal magics for mundanes - no boss? Why not? A supervising mage
who knows that X locks per Y weeks is very reasonable would be just fine.
Mages assigned to be the personal mages of V.I.P.'s in the corp wouldn't
likely have a boss, though.

R+D is a toughie. I would believe that they'd definitely have a mage
boss. But R+D is tough to judge. But I do believe that mages in magical
R+D wouldn't have any special options that a mundane wouldn't ever have
in, say, a tech R+D position. Both techies are relying on the vagueness
of R+D work to get their "slacking off" time in. With a mage supervisor,
there wouldn't be any extra slacking for the mage techie just because
he's a mage.

>...but not the other 80% of the jobs mages will do.

What are these jobs that you don't think wouldn't/couldn't have mage
supervision? Granted, there are some out there, but I think that
most of them wouldn't be too hard to supervise.

>hmm, we seem to differ on scale here: lets take it from the top.

>I think the average mage worker can easily work below his full potential
>without fear of repercussions. (say, 50% of potential).
>
>You?

Can? Yes. Easily. Especially when you're a mage who suffers mental
drain a lot. It's a job where you can really say "I've got to rest -
I've got a headache" and get away with it. ;-)

I think that the mage can pick-and-choose their spots to relax pretty
much at-will. But I don't think that the mage can slack off in the
long term. The corp doesn't care if the mage works hard 3 days and
slacks on 2 days or works lightly on all 5 days - as long as their
"quota" of work gets done. Corps are evil and exist as extraterritorial
entities. They make their
own laws and enforce their own punishments. If one mage consistently
underperforms all of his peers, he's going to be reprimanded. With most
any job (including magical ones), there is some standard to which a
worker (or workgroup) can be compared to for the purposes of rating
their performance. Even R+D, when the competition is continually beating
you to "market", so to speak, has yardsticks to measure performance.

Granted, this is all long-term evaluation. Like I said before, I think
a mage could decide that "today, I'm not doing jack-squat" and get
away with it - as long as he doesn't do that /too/ often.

Now, like any other business, they can't spend TOO much money/resources
on monitoring their mages. At some point, it is no longer cost
effective. However, I just have to believe that if people /today/ can
get away with about 50% effort under today's conditions, then in
2057, when the corp holds most of the cards and mages can't just
leave for a better job, then they can coerce (by hook or crook) a
work performance better than that. With proper mage management, I
can't see the mystical nature of their work overcoming that basic
corp advantage. It helps, to be sure, but it doesn't come close (IMHO)
to counteracting it.

- Brett

Message no. 110 Sorry it's taken so long to respond to all of these postings. It's
been a long weekend....

> Okay, first of, this post is getting very long so lets both agree to try
>and snip as much as possible, just to keep this manageable.

Ok.

> Not the exact opposite, something far less extreme. Namely, day to day
>operations. It is neither tactically sound nor likely that any
>experienced security firm or division will allow mages to patrol astrally,
>they will use watchers and elementals instead. I'll explain why at the
>end of this post.

I don't disagree. I just don't see how this particularly affects the
situation, though.

>> And they get shadow break-ins each and every day/night of their lives?
>> Doubtful.
> No... of course not. But the fear of that is what security assets are
>all about. They must continually guard against the possiblity, that's
>their job. This is why defending something (security, bodyguard work,
>etc.) is always much more difficult and resource intensive than pulling
>black ops.

True, but again, how does this relate. You starting with this to claim
that the resources (elementals) would be used up faster than they could
be made. Assuming that a reasonable threshold (don't respond to anything
unless it reaches a certain "point") is maintained, I don't see this
happening. Just not enough SERIOUS runs are made against corps. (~Serious"
being defined as when it's reasonable and prudent to roll out the Astral
Army.)

>> >Both those requirements preclude "leaving them out there."
>>
>> Hogwash. :-)
>>
>> The occassional shadowrun /may/, if mundane resources can't
>> deal with it, cause them to be used. But, seriously, in a credible game,
.> just how often can Acme Tech (where the mage works) get hit by
>> shadowrunners?
> Not all that far fetched... I can't recall the last time I played in a
>group that didn't include at least one magician (namely myself, but quite
>frequently someone else would play a shaman or something as well).

The problem is, I don't believe (and never will :-) that PC running groups
are "typical" - in any way, shape or form. Corp defenses and the upkeep
and drain on those resources should be based on "bell curve" assessments
of what may be sent against them. A PC party of runners is /not/ the middle
of that bell curve - they are, at least, a standard deviation stonger than
the norm (more likely two).

IMHO, you can't base overall world corp responses based on the make-up
of typical PC running groups. The reason PC running groups, as you say below,
give corps mightmares, is /because/ they are significantly stronger and more
versatile than the normal intrusion groups.

>Shadowrunners often have magical assets and this causes Corps no end of
>nightmares. Shadowruns occur infrequently to rarely depending on the
>site, but enough to cause those in charge to institute varying degrees of
>security, which these days usually includes magical security.

Yes, but this doesn't mean that the Astral Army is getting rolled out
for every Tom, Dick or Harry that runs against them. This means that most
of these incursions, which are uncommon /at best/ to begin with, are not
draining the resources (stored elementals) at all.

>> And why, oh why, would a mage waste his elementals services by keeping
>> them "on the clock" during mundane astral security sweeps?
> Because it's a lot safer to send out an expendable elemental than to send
>out your very non-replacable astral body. Famous last words... "All's
>quiet in sec..............."

That`s the (correct) mindset of STANDARD magical security. But the elite team
is not standard and does not subscribe to standard tactics or methods. In
fact, the elite team would never be doing the astral sweep. The team only
gets called in once someone ELSE has found and identified a threat large
enough to warrant their use. And that is pretty RARE. Unfortunately (for
the PCs), running groups of the PC's calibre are both (a) rare and (b) worthy
of such a response assuming that they are hitting a corp site significant
enough to warrant that kind of security.

> Yes possible, nothing is that certain and corporations frequently base
>decisions on things other than rationallity. I can give you a local
>corporation as case in point.

[example snipped]

I don't doubt this. But this is NOT the norm. This guy was an idiot and
represents some point on the bell curve WELL below the average. It's
easy to point to any single data point (this screwed up corp) and say
"look!". But that doesn't mean most, or even some, of the other ones are
that stupid.

>magical degrees weren't offered until beginning of 2025. That's about 30
>years time passed, enough for one generation of mages to mature. My guess
>would be that many Corporations are still struggling to understand how
>best to utilize mages in any capacity. If the example of the problems of
>a very real corporation are any example of how slow changes sometimes
>take, and how older entrenched ideas can make progess difficult, it may be
>another 20 years before Corporations begin mounting truly efficient
>magical defenses. Simply put, they lack the experience with magic they
>have with mundane measures, which likely breeds an attitude of reliance on
>the mundane. Here's an example: Landscaping a facility to aid mundane
>security measures is a well understood concept, how many security
>landscapers are experienced in landscaping with magic in mind?

Actually, if you read all of the canned adventures that are so careful about
constructing astral-proof areas etc., I'd say that they're pretty damned
experienced at it. :-) I'm sure there's a lot to learn still, but they are
/definitely/ working along those lines already. Possibly not to the
sophistication levels that we're discussing here (like most of this, that's
a GM "flavor" call), however.

But the guideline I, personally, like to work under is that the corps are
fully conversant and ready to work with anything that is in the basic SRII
rule books. (If the players are, why shouldn't the corps be?) My points aren't
being drawn from some obscure can-summon-great-womwoms-on-full-moons loophole
buried somewhere in the 27-zillionth sourcebook. It's a basic staple of
elemental conjuring. This, being so basic, leads me to believe the corps
would have already significantly adapted.

> Okay, let me see if I can answer most of your questions in one spot here
>and keep this post from fragmenting too much.
> According to what I've seen and read in the various source books, mages
>are at a premium. Take a look at the MCT group in the Grimoire (p61).
>Members are afforded a luxury lifestyle. This seems to be Corp treatment
>of mages in general, mages are sufficiently rare that they can demand this
>sort of pampering. What this tells me is that Corps invest a lot in their
>mages: lifestyle, training, facilities, conjuring materials, etc.

So far so good. :-)

>What
>this also tells me is that a Corp will be loathe to risk that very
>non-expendable asset when other expendable assets are available.

Yes. But there aren't any mundane/expendable assets capable of doing what
this elite team is capable of doing. Yeah, if they could throw Joe Blow in an
"astral jump suit" and let him take the risk, they'd do that. But they can't.
Furthermore, they have no other security asset capable of going from a
ultra-protected home base to ANYPLACE IN THE WORLD in a few seconds.

/That/ is what they are paying for. And it's well worth the money.

>In
>simple terms, if the mage gets geeked it's going to be hell to replace
>him/her, if an elemental gets geeked it's much, much, cheaper and easier
>to replace.

True, but there is no work around to give you such power and mobility. When
they discover one, they'll be sure to use it.

>Sending a mage on astral patrol is probably about one of the most
>bone-headed things a Corp could do. Especially with those nifty new Sec
>Control Centers from Ares. (Thanks Ares for make my shadowrunning career
>so much easier.) The reason is simply this, the mage goes out on astral
>patrol, get's ambushed and dry gulched by a PC mage, now all those high
>force elementals are useless (in fact, they're gone).

We seem to have a misunderstanding. At no point am I claiming that
this elite team is ever, ever, EVER going on astral patrol. They sit back,
snug and secure someplace, until a /verified/ threat of sufficient magnitude
and nature has been received. Then, fully briefed with site intel, they
are sent out to whup-ass or perform recon in force.

> Second, for those
>really nasty shadowrunners; slam an area effect damaging manipulation
>spell, like acid bomb, into the astrally projecting mage. That spell
>grounds into his meat body and takes out that shiny control center. Say
>good-bye to central control. I don't see corps making this mistake more
>than once.

It`s not a stretch to not place the elite mages in a room away from
such valuable equipment when they project, is it?

>Keeping the above in mind, consider that after reading Corp Shadowfiles,
>only three corps seem to make good use of their magical assets, MCT,
>Aztechnology and Saeder-Krupp. The rest still seem to be figuring out how
>best to manage them, making mistakes like keeping their magical assets
>seperate instead of fully integrating them.

With all due respect to FASA, Corp Shadowfiles makes some of the big-8
corps look like raging idiots. If a rulebook makes "x" a powerful commodity
and asset in the game world and a sourcebook comes out later and says, for
some stupid reason(s), 5 of the big-8 corps ignore or underutilize obvious
asset "x", I ignore the sourcebook stuff.

[more Corp Shadowfile stuff deleted]

>I agree that what you propose is possible, and I also agree that just
>from a combat capabilities point of view can be very effective. However,
>I'm not ready to agree that a corporate accountant would see it the same
>way, and that's the real limiting factor. From what I've seen, most corps
>won't, they're still coming to terms with how to use their magical assets.
> Most are taking a "blunt instrument" approach that is far from being the
>most effective method.

Of course, you're free to do that if you wish. I just hate "stupid" corps.
Corps tend to emulate the successful tactics of their rivals - or they go
belly up. Thus, if one does it, they /all/ do it. And there's been more
than enough time to catch up to whomever did it first.

Again, it's not like there's some secret magical technology that needs to
be developed before the technique can be employed. It's just /basic/
conjuring. All that's necessary is the will to initiate such a program
and the money to support it (Trivial for big-8, less so as you go down
the "food chain").

>I'll also point out that those high force elementals may not be quiet the
>powerhouses they would appear to be. Here's some numbers to crunch.
>A single Force 10 elemental requires a conjurer with (CHA 6, Conj. 6) to
>roll t0s for success. I forget the exact statistics but the chances per
>die are something around 2-3%.

It's not that small. TNs are 10. The chance of scoring a 10 or higher
on any single die is 1/6 (rolling a 6) times 1/2 (rolling a 4 or higher)
which is 1/12 or 8.33%. The conjuring skill of 6 gives six dice. So,
the chance of coming up with, at least, one success is:

1 - (11/12)^6 = just a hair over forty percent. That's right - a 40% chance
of success each and every time. Not quite long odds.

Now, let some of these mages be elves (with +2 charisma). Now, throw
in spirit foci, courtesy of the corp. Make sure they all know TREAT
to deal with bad drain. And let them spend time supporting each other's
summonnings to prevent a free elemental from killing one of them. And
when they've got their elementals summoned, they work on extending the
number of services of these big elementals so they can crush anyone trying
the "summon weaker elementals and use superior number of services to
whittle them down" method.

It's a very sweet deal - and a very do-able one. I can't see anything other
than a poor or brain-dead corp NOT doing this to some extent. They /need/
this measure of versatility in their arsenal. It doesn't see that much
"action", but if they didn't have such a force at the ready, that weakness
could be exploited - exploited to the tune of losses far greater than the
cost of forming the elite team in the first place.

> I tried rolling this and only got 1
>success, which means 1 service.
>A shadowrunning mage (also CHA 6, Conj. 6) summons a force 5 elemental,
>needing only 5 for success. I believe the stats for this are around
>15-20%. Rolling again, I got three successes. So far no use of karma or
>other bonuses.
> Now, the two mages square off. We'll assume that each mage has six
>elementals. It's a fair bet the sec mage will have 1 of each elemental
>and the remaining two would likely be fire and earth/air. Fire can aid
>with combats spells, earth manipulations and air with detection. So our
>shadow mage prepares with elementals of the oppostie types, water and
>air/earth.
> When opposite types of elementals engage, it becomes simple math. The
>higher force elemental has it's force reduced by the lower force elemental
>(which gets disrupted). However, since I got three success I can recall
>may disrupted elementals at full force. Again the elementals fight and
>this time both sides are wiped out. Using my last success I recall my
>elementals. However the corp mage no longer has elementals and I now have
>"elemental superiority" to coin a term.

Not exactly. You make a good point about the cancelling elementals and the
services involved, though. There is definitely some "optimal" force level
that these elite mages will want to deal with for that reason. It'll probably
be around force 8-10, because too much higher than that, the payback gets
diminished too much those nasty TN's. Ten or lower is do-able. Twelves and
higher are /nasty/.

But you have to remember, anything the runners can do, the corps can do
better. So, instead of getting hammered with 6 force 10's, the runners will
get hammered with 6 force 8's with a /buttload/ of services. Force 8
makes 'em big enough to win the "cancelling" war with enemy elementals and
small enough to get lotsa extra services without waiting forever.

And, I believe you are overlooking the incredible detriment of having to
spend actions to heal the smaller elementals. The Astral Army controls the
local astral. Is this mage going to go astral and deal with the AA there?
Not likely. He's going to force the elementals to manifest where the
entire /team/ can fight them. Now, if he's wasting actions in combat fixing
his elementals from taking damage/death from the larger elementals, he's not
taking actions casting spells etc. And he /isn't/ going to have a lot of
actions to take. Any sort of initiative-enhancing spells are going to be
pounded on from the astral before the attacking corp mage starts manifesting
his elementals to attack. There are /big/ advantages in being the mage that
has control over the astral around the battlefield. You can crack all spells,
foci etc. at your leisure before drifting in with the "grunts".

And while the mage, with his one (maybe two) actions per combat round is
wasting them all fixing his smaller elementals, the corp mage is getting
actions to bring down any spells active - (with reserved initiative) block
any spells being cast - and generally be a nuisance. And, being astral, the
corp mages will get about two more actions per combat round than the
runner mage.

Oh yeah. I forgot. This is an elite TEAM of conjurers. So, if you have
the ill fortune of facing them, you're not dealing with just one of these
elite conjurers. One would beat you. Two or three will /annihilate you/. And,
unless you're a corp yourself, there's no way you can put together a team
to deal with that. And never mind the mundane security gassing/shooting/
spraying you will you're trying to deal with using your smaller elementals.

Yeah, the runner's mage is, economically speaking, still getting more bang
for the buck. But when it gets you killed.... Let's just say the corp is
happy to pay more per mage and win/live then pay "bargain" runner rates
and die/lose assets.

Of course, the corp can't afford to throw this kind of heat at most
incursions. But the ones they deem dangerous enough - look out!

The only way the corp mage will win
>is if they have multiple services for each of those "monster" elementals.
>This will likely require multiple conjurings (which can be done to gain
>additional services at the rate of one service added per two success).

yup.

>However, at such high TNs this is going to get tough.

No tougher than summoning them in the first place. And working the
force 8 range for a greater number of services lessens the problem a
great deal.

> Lets say based on
>the percentages I gave that out of every two attempts, the corp mage only
>gets one addition service. To total up 5 services would mean an average
>of 11 conjurings, requiring 11 days work and 110,000 nuyen for a single
>force 10 elemental. For six that runs up to two months work, over 600k
>spent, plus another 200k for the luxury lifestyle of the mage. Thats
>almost 1 mil in two months and nothing on the balance sheet to show for
>it. And the first time a shadow mage reduces those powerful elementals
>in the manner I described I would imagine the corp in question would take a
>serious look at cost effectiveness.

Done as a general security measure, I'd agree. But done in two or three
elite teams, I don't think so. It's WORTH it to the corp to spend the
nuyen. Remember, these assets can be used to defend ANY HOLDING THE CORP
HAS - AT THE DROP OF A HAT. If a mundane, uncybered guard is worth 30,000
nuyen a year? What would he be worth if he could instantly teleported to
any trouble spot for a 100% efficiency? A heck of a lot more. That's
why these teams are worth it. They don't have to make 1 team per site. (They
couldn't - not enough trained mages with the right mindset). But they /can/
train two or three such teams and use them to defend EVERY SINGLE HOLDING
THE CORP HAS.

> When those factors are
>considered, that 3-4 million dwindles rapidly.

The corp only needs 18 of these 3 to 4 MILLION to make three such teams
of six.

> I love a good friendly debate, and so long as this remains friendly I'll
>happily play devil's advocate and tear the idea apart, examine it and put
>it together again. In the process it's very likely we'll both learn a
>thing or three. I agree that SR can be very demanding in the level of
>detailed work and "completeness" required of a GM. I've gotten rather
>burned out with GMing these days and much prefer to just play when I can.

I'm having fun with this. Everyone's feedback has been keeping me constantly
revising what I think this thing would look like. Now, I may have to sit
down and figure out what that optimal force rating is...

- Brett

Message no. 111 In message <1AA35EF71D0@**.opp.psu.edu>, Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
writes
>Ignore my slightly sarcastic addition to the above, and realize I was saying
>that magic is a force that is misunderstood, difficult to account for, and
>incomprehensible to mundanes. The mage will answer to his magically active
>superiors, but to mundanes? How will they know anything? Even simple
>magical theory (mana vs physical, grounding, etc) has exceptions in the
>rules, and doubtless more in the intracacies of real life. And don't think
>for a moment that the average mage, esp corp mages, wants to remove any of
>the mystery.

Like IT departments in the mid/late 1980s, the High Priests of the PC :)

>Besides, I speak from experience: Dilbert hasn't made Scott Adams a fortune
>because it is UNLIKE real life. Under the exageration is the bald fact that
>managment is often clueless to the task at hand, because of HOW you become
>management. But again, this is beside the point I was trying to make.

Uh, Brett, we avidly collect Dilberts at work, because Scott Adams has
placed a finger squarely upon the way things _do_ get run in some places
(like ours). You may be fortunate, others are not.

"We laugh because it's funny, we laugh because it's true." (Robert de
Niro in "The Untouchables")

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

Message no. 112 >Like IT departments in the mid/late 1980s, the High Priests of the PC :)

HEY! Watch it buddy....that's my job your talking about....:)
>
>>Besides, I speak from experience: Dilbert hasn't made Scott Adams a fortune
>>because it is UNLIKE real life. Under the exageration is the bald fact that

>Uh, Brett, we avidly collect Dilberts at work, because Scott Adams has
>placed a finger squarely upon the way things _do_ get run in some places
>(like ours). You may be fortunate, others are not.

I think you misunderstood, but it was my own fault: I used a double
negative: I agree with you. (I was rebuking the other Brett, who seemed to
think Corps _Didn't_ run like Dilbert. Silly Youngin'....:-D

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 113 Ashelock writes

I think you meant this to end up on the list ?

> On 3 Feb 97 at 16:25, Mark Steedman wrote:
>
> > Glenn Royer writes
> > >
> > > that's misleading, though. Elementals, when called, stay astral, and
> > > you can tell your fire elemental to "burn that door down" and he
will
> > > manifest to do it. But you're right, just telling it to manifest will
> > > be a service. Kinda like genies that way. Ya gotta watch your
> > > wordings.
> >
> > I don't see why, just call the thing to you while your astral
> > perception is off, it will have to manifest so you can communicate
> > with it, this cannot be a problem as otherwise conjouring adepts
> > would be a touch impossible to play!
> >
> This just made me think of something I'd never had to deal with before.
> An elemental must remain in the LOS of the controlling mage (Black Book
> p141). A conjuring adept does *not* have astral perception (Black Book
> p124). An elemental spirit, after conjuring, stays in astral space by
> preference and will remain there unless specifically commanded otherwise
> (Black Book p141). Since the conjuring adept cannot see on the astral,
> this effectively puts the elemental out of the adepts LOS.
My suspicion is that the spirt would manifest automatically so that
the conjurer could control it, unwilling the spirit may be but
intelligence equals force so all but the smallest spirits are pretty
smart!

> Which means
> what? (Technically this would apply to magicians who aren't astrally
> perceiving as well.) I've just re-read the section on magic in the Black
> Book and it does not state anywhere what the consequences of a elemental
> moving out of LOS would be. Do they go free? Vanish back to the
> metaplanes? Become uncontrolled spirits? GM makes something up? I
> would assume it becomes uncontrolled and either vanishes back to the
> metaplanes or becomes a free spirit.
probably tries to get back in los, if that fails service ends and it
goes back to the metaplanes (elemental), or sits about waiting for
the shaman to come back / keeps looking for him (nature spirit).
Suppose it could go free, but a test would i think be in order.

> Oh, btw, since the publication of
> the Grimoire, the rules for uncontrolled spirits (Black Book, p143) are,
> apparently, pointless and have been replaced by the rules for free
> spirits (Grimoire, pp76-83).
> I'm getting ready to re-read the Grimoire, and then Awakenings, I'll post
> if I find something, but I can't recall an answer.
> Oh, and commanding a spirit to manifest does *not* use a service (Black
> Book pp141-142).
> --
>
suspected as much but didn't know how official it was :) thanks. I
have been ruling this for a long time. I also use conditional orders,
like 'if someone attacks me please perfrom service 'defend me', on
the basis that if nobody does the elemental just gets to hang about
looking impressive (and probably enjoying the looks of 'i hope that
doesn't take a dislike to me....')

Mark

Message no. 114 Brett Barksdale writes

> Sorry it's taken so long to respond to all of these postings. It's
> been a long weekend....
>
> The problem is, I don't believe (and never will :-) that PC running groups
> are "typical" - in any way, shape or form. Corp defenses and the upkeep
> and drain on those resources should be based on "bell curve" assessments
> of what may be sent against them. A PC party of runners is /not/ the middle
> of that bell curve - they are, at least, a standard deviation stonger than
> the norm (more likely two).
That is a more than reasonable statement.
Ever noticed that when PC teams go down it is slowly and tooth and
nail while NPC's regularly get blasted all across the landscape, at
least one reason is games are biased (players are supposed to have
fun) another is the players have lots more grey matter on thier side!
for tactical processing horsepower! (poor GM has to run all the bad
guys, the rules and is using characters he's likely unfamiliar with,
though this doesn't mean he'll do a poor job it still gves the
players an innate advantage)

> Yes, but this doesn't mean that the Astral Army is getting rolled out
> for every Tom, Dick or Harry that runs against them. This means that most
> of these incursions, which are uncommon /at best/ to begin with, are not
> draining the resources (stored elementals) at all.
>
Most break ins will have to use all mundanes, there just arn't enough
mages etc. Just players very rarely play such teams.

> The team only
> gets called in once someone ELSE has found and identified a threat large
> enough to warrant their use. And that is pretty RARE. Unfortunately (for
> the PCs), running groups of the PC's calibre are both (a) rare and (b) worthy
> of such a response assuming that they are hitting a corp site significant
> enough to warrant that kind of security.
>
This is why stealth is your best weapon. If the corp does not know
you are there they cannot call the cavalry. About the only measures
usable 24 hours a day are remote patrolling elementals (using the GR2
rule and karma, but the mage does not know when they die), wards,
landscaping (eg ivy walls) and FAB walls, watchers (6 odd watchers on
'see something go get the caralry' is the best, sure they get trashed
but killing all 6 targets before one meakes it to security HQ is very
difficult, then they call the 'mega team from hell' everyone has been
discussing, (assuming that when the local average sec mage takes a
peep out he dies or goes gibber) at which point shure they might take
15 seconds to arrive but the penetration is stopped, if the runners
leg it they get away, big deal security did its job (kept them out)
for no resources used.

> Yes. But there aren't any mundane/expendable assets capable of doing what
> this elite team is capable of doing. Yeah, if they could throw Joe Blow in an
> "astral jump suit" and let him take the risk, they'd do that. But they
can't.
> Furthermore, they have no other security asset capable of going from a
> ultra-protected home base to ANYPLACE IN THE WORLD in a few seconds.
few hours, astral is fast but only within a city really, or maybe a
whole state, beyond that resonse times are fast enough the local cops
will arrive first and any runners planning to still be on site when
two lonestar swat teams arrive deserve everything they get!

> We seem to have a misunderstanding. At no point am I claiming that
> this elite team is ever, ever, EVER going on astral patrol. They sit back,
> snug and secure someplace, until a /verified/ threat of sufficient magnitude
> and nature has been received. Then, fully briefed with site intel, they
> are sent out to whup-ass or perform recon in force.
>
Yep which is why runners can survive despite their existence. sure
the corp can afford a few of them, but not many. so the simple answer
is what the cavalry don't find out about they don't kill! sneak sneak
sneak!

> 1 - (11/12)^6 = just a hair over forty percent. That's right - a 40% chance
> of success each and every time. Not quite long odds.
>
correct. note many people here insist on using avaerges these do not
give the probability of rolling an 'x' on 'y' dice! probability
formula such as this required. (over time th average can be used as a
guide, but no more)

> There are /big/ advantages in being the mage that
> has control over the astral around the battlefield. You can crack all spells,
> foci etc. at your leisure before drifting in with the "grunts".
>
Ah the wonders of masking! remember to get more than 'masked'
requires a metaplanar quest , no astral side trips first, why its the
most powerful one out there, unmasked spell lock equals fireballed
mage :)
And then all those nice grenades cook of, in that nice narrow
corridor :)
>
> Of course, the corp can't afford to throw this kind of heat at most
> incursions. But the ones they deem dangerous enough - look out!
>
Very true. so the tactic remains don't let them know what they are
facing.

Mark

Message no. 115 >
>I think you misunderstood, but it was my own fault: I used a double
>negative: I agree with you. (I was rebuking the other Brett, who seemed to
>think Corps _Didn't_ run like Dilbert. Silly Youngin'....:-D

It's not my fault. I tried making the evil human resources director of
Renraku a cat, but it didn't work... :-)

- Youngin'

Message no. 116 Well, let's see if I can recall the point of this thread.
I think it started with a quetion like "One of my players' character
is abusing conjuring. What can I do to stop him?"

<grin>

Whenever one of my players behave like that, I'll tell him how risky
is dealing with powerful magical beings, and the show it can be on
the astral space. And if he/she goes on conjuring those poor high
force elementals and/or slaving them for eternity, I think it is time
for Tutor to come and make him a visit, and teach him/her the lesson
the hard way :) <VBEG>

Of course, this will be a last resort, but knowing my players it can
be very possible in a short term :)

Well, that's been my own 2 nuyens. Hope it helps:)

--
Monde-the-I-love-the-Threats-book-GM-:)

Message no. 117 On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Brett Barksdale wrote:

> >
> >I think you misunderstood, but it was my own fault: I used a double
> >negative: I agree with you. (I was rebuking the other Brett, who seemed to
> >think Corps _Didn't_ run like Dilbert. Silly Youngin'....:-D
>
> It's not my fault. I tried making the evil human resources director of
> Renraku a cat, but it didn't work... :-)
>
> - Youngin'
HMMMMM.... Did you try making him a Were-Cat (heheheee) ya know they got
rules for that in Beyond the Shadows...
Wounder if Dogbert could be a Dog shaman...Toxic maybe? or maybe
just an awakened dog...same with Ratbert....Or maybe a corp experment gone
bad...heheheeee

Czar-Woundering-What-To-Do-With-Bob :)-Eggbert

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Czar-the-Increadable-edable-Eggbert
Ruler, Dark Side of the Moon.
homepage: http:\\www.creighton.edu\~czregbrt
mailto:czregbrt@*********.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And now for something completely diffrent:
"Not now honey... I'm cleaning my ears."
-Helen Stunkard
kittypurr@*******.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 118 On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Brett Barksdale wrote:

> >
> >I think you misunderstood, but it was my own fault: I used a double
> >negative: I agree with you. (I was rebuking the other Brett, who seemed to
> >think Corps _Didn't_ run like Dilbert. Silly Youngin'....:-D
>
> It's not my fault. I tried making the evil human resources director of
> Renraku a cat, but it didn't work... :-)
>
> - Youngin'
>

How about a Cat Shaman?

~Tim

Message no. 119 On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Czar Eggbert wrote:

> On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Brett Barksdale wrote:
>
> > >
> > >I think you misunderstood, but it was my own fault: I used a double
> > >negative: I agree with you. (I was rebuking the other Brett, who seemed to
> > >think Corps _Didn't_ run like Dilbert. Silly Youngin'....:-D
> >
> > It's not my fault. I tried making the evil human resources director of
> > Renraku a cat, but it didn't work... :-)
> >
> > - Youngin'
> HMMMMM.... Did you try making him a Were-Cat (heheheee) ya know they got
> rules for that in Beyond the Shadows...
> Wounder if Dogbert could be a Dog shaman...Toxic maybe? or maybe
> just an awakened dog...same with Ratbert....Or maybe a corp experment gone
> bad...heheheeee
>
> Czar-Woundering-What-To-Do-With-Bob :)-Eggbert
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

A dragon with special skill "Give Monster-Wedgie"?

~Tim

Message no. 120 >>I think you misunderstood, but it was my own fault: I used a double
>>negative: I agree with you. (I was rebuking the other Brett, who seemed to
>>think Corps _Didn't_ run like Dilbert. Silly Youngin'....:-D
>
>It's not my fault. I tried making the evil human resources director of
>Renraku a cat, but it didn't work... :-)

Yeah, when the game gets TOO evil, the players get uncomfortable playing.

-=SwiftOne=-
(Cat-lover, but not Cat-ignorant)

Message no. 121 On 3 Feb 97 at 16:02, Brett Barksdale wrote:

> Sorry it's taken so long to respond to all of these postings. It's
> been a long weekend....
Welcome to the club :)

<snip a LOT of good debate> Okay basically then, and correct me if I'm
wrong, we're down to this. Each site will have a few magicians on staff
whose job it is to deal specifically with site security. In another post
this got narrowed down to something on the order of 2 per shift. (Note,
runners should find out in advance whether or not those mages live on
site. If they do, that's 6 mages to deal with if the alarm gets
triggered.) Each corp will also maintian a special reserve of mages, an
"elite team". Assuming corps cluster their facilities (several
facilities within 10-30 miles of each other for example, say around a
major city), then one such team would be in a position to protect a
number of sites. These forces only "activate" in situations where the
regular site security has been compromised to a high degree (Central...
we're being overrun... they're all over the place..... <static>). At
just what point these elite teams respond would depend on the corp
involved, runners get to do some guessing or a lot of leg work. All the
arguing over rules and what not aside, your original point remains valid;
Corps will overwhelm any PC mages who try and fight a direct
confrontation. I think we both knew that going into this, but the debate
was still useful to illustrate that point. There simply isn't any way
one or two PC mages can hope to deal with corp sec in a head-to-head
confrontation.
So, that leaves us with the question of how do runners
survived? The first and most obvious answer being, don't raise the
alarm. But as we also know, that's easier said than done. However, I
think it's also fair to say that some runs are more likely to create a
lot "noise" than others, and players need to learn to judge that. Low
noise runs are unlikely to attract those "elite" strike teams. And here
is where deckers really become important. Site security and emergency
contingency plans and protocals are likely stored in a database
somewhere. Therefore, it's reasonable to assume a decker could penetrate
that datastore and make a copy (and it would be very important that they
do so undetected, if they raise an alarm, the info becomes useless
because the protocals would immediately be changed). With that info, not
only would the players know the level of opposition, but just how much
"noise" would cause an elite team to respond, and where that team would
come from, and what that team would be composed of. Several devious
ideas come to mind based on that kind of info.
I think we can agree that such elite teams would be difficult to replace,
and we've also pointed out that it would take such a team months to
assemble their cadre of high force elementals. Hows this for a nasty
trick. Let's assume the team decker gets the sec info I discussed above.
The team then plans a two stage run against the corp in question. In the
first stage, part of the team hits a corp site and deliberately causes
enough "noise" to trigger the elite corp sec team. These runners then
head for another corps territory, previously selected. Preferable a very
militant corp, with the intention of trying to provoke a fight between
corp sec forces. While this elite team is busy, stage two goes into
effect. In stage two, the remainder of the team hits the real target hard
and fast.
I know your going to see some flaws in that, and there aren't any
guarantees with it. But then if runners wanted guarantees, they wouldn't
be running the shadows. If a team pulls this stunt too often, the corps
will get wise to it and change their sec procedures. This would be one of
several reasons having the decker get those protocals would be critical,
how you plan things out depend on just how the corp would respond. There
are a number of other things that can go wrong, and a number of other ways
to play it. For example, use corp extraterritorality against them...
their corp sec forces only have jurisdiction on corp territory. So draw
fire and then lure them onto a public street, then call Lone Star (hows
that for an ironic twist). I know calling LS is probably the last thing
most runners would do, but keep this in mind, Corp territory is another
country as far as the law is concerned. Corp territory is outside the
jurisdiction of LS and crimes commited there don't concern LS. LS is a
corp too, and I would think that makes them even less friendly to other
corps (especially Ares). They'll go after corp sec forces just as fast as
anyone else fighing a shooting war on a public street! And I see little
if any reason why corp sec forces would be licensed to carry that kind of
weaponry on public streets (if nothing else, licensing cost money, gives
an indication of what you are upto and corps don't like either). Elite
teams might be licensed, but does the average LS grunt on the street know
that (or recognize the elite team AS an elite team) when he calls in heavy
reinforcements. The point here is that dirty trick like this allow
runners to tie up corp forces in one place, while they do their thing
elsewhere.
If the corp sec forces won't leave corp territory (and by now they're
probably too paranoid to do so, for just the reasons I've given), then
snipe at them, wear them down. One of the things a soldier hates is
having to guard a site where you can't strike back at the enemy. It wears
on moral terribly. Dupe a gang into believe site A has a ton of hot new
simchips or whatever and that sec is lax. While the gang is getting
toasted as site A, hit site B. My main point here is that runners are
going to start having to plan and use all the resources available to them.
As has been made clear, Corps are planning better, taking tougher
measures, runners will have to adapt or die. And the runner at least has
the advantage that the Corp is a static target. It's always easier to
find cracks in a defense, than it is to plan a solid defense.

>
> > I love a good friendly debate, and so long as this remains
> > friendly I'll
> >happily play devil's advocate and tear the idea apart, examine it and
> >put it together again. In the process it's very likely we'll both learn
> >a thing or three. I agree that SR can be very demanding in the level of
> >detailed work and "completeness" required of a GM. I've gotten rather
> >burned out with GMing these days and much prefer to just play when I
> >can.
>
> I'm having fun with this. Everyone's feedback has been keeping me
> constantly revising what I think this thing would look like. Now, I may
> have to sit down and figure out what that optimal force rating is...
I'm enjoying it a lot too. I'm a wargamer at heart and most of this
revolves around tactical planning. It's also making me go back and
"bone-up" on the rules, re-reading things as I discover misconceptions
I've had about various rules, or rules that have changed (and the changes
I missed). In a way it's fun, but I can't help but wonder if the game
isn't getting too complicated, too many rules to keep up with.
--

Ashelock
mailto:woneal@*******.net

"They say it's a brave new world we're building. I say they're right,
and we'll all have to be pretty brave to live in it."

Message no. 122 On Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:42:45 -0005, Ashelock wrote:

>I can't help but wonder if the game
>isn't getting too complicated, too many rules to keep up with.
>--
>
>Ashelock

Here things tie to another thread, namely the one asking "wy playing
SR". After all (that is, playing for two years, GMing from time to
time) its's not that bad.
Some points are:
One: every player should know her/his rules (that is, magic for
magicians, ranged fighting for ... and so on). So everyone knows what
they can do, and knows what they can't. Knowing what you can't do is
_very_ important, IMHO, since it shows you what might lead to a
complete disaster in your run (for example: mages without backup,
Sammies without mages and so on).
Two: no player needs to know the rules for thing the PC doesnt' know.
The reason for that should be obvious.
Three and synthesis: SR in that way represents real life abilities. So
there aren't too much rules, they (or rather their knowledge) in fact
represent PC's abilities.
Four: Poor GM. He needs to know all the rules.

--
Arno
*********************************************************************
Be careful when replying to this mail - check the address !!!
(And send me a note when you notice that
the reply-to-address points to the list!)
*********************************************************************

Message no. 123 Arno R. Lehmann said on 1:29/ 6 Feb 97...

> One: every player should know her/his rules (that is, magic for
> magicians, ranged fighting for ... and so on). So everyone knows what
> they can do, and knows what they can't. Knowing what you can't do is
> _very_ important, IMHO, since it shows you what might lead to a
> complete disaster in your run (for example: mages without backup,
> Sammies without mages and so on).

For new players, IMHO _not_ knowing most of the rules is better. Only the
basics, like what "roll a Body test" means, should be sufficient if the GM
knows the rules well enough. That way, players will try things without
knowing if the rules allow them to succeed or not. If it's something that
everyone in the game world knows won't work, the GM should say so and
give the player a chance to reconsider.

Obviously this won't work if the whole group is new to the game.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Some bald fanatics try to make me buy their books.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 124 On 4 Feb 97 at 8:35, Mark Steedman wrote:

> Ashelock writes
>
> I think you meant this to end up on the list ?
I did, thanks Mark.
>
> > On 3 Feb 97 at 16:25, Mark Steedman wrote:
> > Which means
> > what? (Technically this would apply to magicians who aren't astrally
> > perceiving as well.) I've just re-read the section on magic in the
> > Black Book and it does not state anywhere what the consequences of a
> > elemental moving out of LOS would be. Do they go free? Vanish back to
> > the metaplanes? Become uncontrolled spirits? GM makes something up?
> > I would assume it becomes uncontrolled and either vanishes back to the
> > metaplanes or becomes a free spirit.
> probably tries to get back in los, if that fails service ends and it goes
> back to the metaplanes (elemental), or sits about waiting for the shaman
> to come back / keeps looking for him (nature spirit). Suppose it could go
> free, but a test would i think be in order.

Okay, two things here. First off, nature spirits and shaman are not
bound by the LOS rule, one of the shamanic advantages. Second, after
reading through SRII, GrimoireII and Awakenings, the only thing I found on
it was in Awakenings (pp32-33, Elemental Spirits). According to
Awakenings if the mage can't see the target (target is out of mages LOS)
then the elemental can't see the target either, regardless of whether or
not the elemental has LOS to the target. That's the only thing I could
find.
However, based on the Astral Patrol service (Grimiore, p92), it seems an
elemental can be put on a sort of "short term" remote service. It's still
vague about it so here's what I came up with as a house rule. Check me on
this and see if it makes sense to you guys.
An elemental can be ordered out of a mages LOS, however, once out of the
mages LOS it cannot be ordered to perform any new service, given new
directions or even order to stop perfoming it's current service until it
is once again in the mages LOS. If the mage sends it after an enemy and
moves beyond the mages LOS it will continue tracking said enemy until it's
services run out. Elementals on such remote services burn 1 service per
24hrs passed. So for example a mage sends a force 4 fire elemental after
a ganger who stole his girl. He tells the elemental to persue and attack
the ganger. The elemental owes 4 services, this command counts as one
service leaving three remaining. The elemental will continue this service
for a total of 24 hrs at which point it will stop and return to the
metaplanes, no longer bound. If the mage wants to stop it, he must get
the elemental back in his LOS to command it to do so which ends that
service.
--

Ashelock
mailto:woneal@*******.net

"They say it's a brave new world we're building. I say they're right,
and we'll all have to be pretty brave to live in it."

Message no. 125 >For new players, IMHO _not_ knowing most of the rules is better. Only the
>basics, like what "roll a Body test" means, should be sufficient if the GM

Right. I usually tell them four things things:

1) The concept of NOT adding the die, and the Rule of 6.
2) Your attributes and skills are the number of die you roll.
3) By Perception test, I mean...
4) This is how armor and body work.....

THings go fine then....except for mages....Shamans you can get away with
though..

-=SwiftOne=-

Message no. 126 On Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:52:17 +0100, Gurth wrote:

>For new players, IMHO _not_ knowing most of the rules is better. Only the
>basics, like what "roll a Body test" means, should be sufficient if the GM
>knows the rules well enough. That way, players will try things without
>knowing if the rules allow them to succeed or not. If it's something that
>everyone in the game world knows won't work, the GM should say so and
>give the player a chance to reconsider.
>
>Obviously this won't work if the whole group is new to the game.
>
Obiously you're right. But I thougth of experienced players, of course.
Things that are known to everyone in the world should have "open" TNs,
and then you know if you can manage it or not.

--
Arno
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