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From:	Brian Johnson <john0375@****.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals-disruption
Date:	Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:41:40 -0600

Message no. 1 > > When opposite types of elementals engage, it becomes simple math. The
> > higher force elemental has it's force reduced by the lower force
> > elemental (which gets disrupted). However, since I got three success I
> > can recall may disrupted elementals at full force.

Not disrupted, destroyed.
Damage is done to the elemental's force. They are not wounded (this is
when the elementals are NOT of opposite types. Dice are rolled if the
spirits are (air vs. water, air vs. fire, water v. earth, and fire v.
earth.)
If Air meets earth, the higher force elemental is reduced In FORCE by
the weaker elemetal's force, and the lower force elemental is destroyed
(or disrupted) This applies for Fire v. water.
( if the elemental is disrupted it would require either 28-days to
return, or an astral quest to bring it back earlier. Minimum time is 24
hours, bu the way.

>When two elementals of
> opposing types engage in combat, they do get reduced. Combat is similar to
> that of melee combat (ref. the Black Book, p143, Spirit Combat).
This rule would be superseded by the version above, from the G2.
Note if you use the rule from the Black Book, they both are attacked by
their vulnerability.

> However, my original arguement holds because of another rule (which was
> what I was thinking of). Spirits may be healed by the expenditure of 1
> service as per the Grimoire, p65, Healing Spirits. So as long as the mage

So now you use the grimoire, but not for the combat?
Further, the healing spirits rule applies only for Damage (which would be
using the Black book rule.) If you use the healing spirits rule(G2), you
should also use the Opposite Destruction rule (G2,in which case the damage
is not damage in the traditional Moderate wound sense, but in loss of
force. which is same as banishing, where in the rule is that the
spirit must be RECONJURED (similar to conjuring a bound elemental for
additional services.) and cannot be 'healed' with an action.
( every two successes in the conjuring test restores one point of force,
maximum of the spirit's original force. which, of course, takes FORCE hours.)

From:	Ashelock <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals-disruption
Date:	Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:42:45 -0005

Message no. 2 On 4 Feb 97 at 15:41, Brian Johnson wrote:

> > > When opposite types of elementals engage, it becomes simple math.
> > > The
> > > higher force elemental has it's force reduced by the lower force
> > > elemental (which gets disrupted). However, since I got three success
> > > I can recall may disrupted elementals at full force.
>
> Not disrupted, destroyed.
> Damage is done to the elemental's force. They are not wounded (this is
> when the elementals are NOT of opposite types. Dice are rolled if the
> spirits are (air vs. water, air vs. fire, water v. earth, and fire v.
> earth.)
> If Air meets earth, the higher force elemental is reduced In FORCE by
> the weaker elemetal's force, and the lower force elemental is destroyed
> (or disrupted) This applies for Fire v. water. ( if the elemental is
Make up your mind, was it disrupted or destroyed. Seems you aren't
anymore sure about it than I was.

> disrupted it would require either 28-days to return, or an astral quest
> to bring it back earlier. Minimum time is 24 hours, bu the way.
>
> >When two elementals of
> > opposing types engage in combat, they do get reduced. Combat is
> > similar to that of melee combat (ref. the Black Book, p143, Spirit
> > Combat).
> This rule would be superseded by the version above, from the G2.
> Note if you use the rule from the Black Book, they both are attacked by
> their vulnerability.
>
> > However, my original arguement holds because of another rule (which
> > was
> > what I was thinking of). Spirits may be healed by the expenditure of 1
> > service as per the Grimoire, p65, Healing Spirits. So as long as the
> > mage
>
> So now you use the grimoire, but not for the combat?
Gee, were you born that smug or do you practice? If someone makes a
mistake, and spirits know I make plenty, pointing it out is fine. We all
learn that way. But try dropping the sarcasm, nobody likes a smart ass.
Otherwise, you can expect the same when you make a mistake (and sooner or
later you will).

> Further, the healing spirits rule applies only for Damage (which would be
> using the Black book rule.) If you use the healing spirits rule(G2), you
> should also use the Opposite Destruction rule (G2,in which case the
> damage is not damage in the traditional Moderate wound sense, but in loss
> of force. which is same as banishing, where in the rule is that the
Actually, after re-reading all the mentioned rules, it seems only free
elementals would suffer damage to their condition monitor. In the case of
bound elementals, force is always reduced, and the weaker elemental is
ultimately destroyed.

> spirit must be RECONJURED (similar to conjuring a bound elemental for
> additional services.) and cannot be 'healed' with an action. ( every two
> successes in the conjuring test restores one point of force, maximum of
> the spirit's original force. which, of course, takes FORCE hours.)
True, but ultimately irrelevant to the topic, it would not help a mage
attempting to use weaker elementals to wear down more powerful ones, which
was the original thread. Also, in retrospect, I agree that the healing
spirits rule would not work. I would guess FASA designed the rules that
way specifically to prevent the tactic I originally described. (ref.
Grimoire, pp64-65, sections Disruption, Healing Spirits & Elementals.)
As a note regarding how this entire mess began, much of the confusion
revolves around the Black Book doing things one way, the Grimoire doing
things another. Because of this I'm in the process of re-reading all the
rules on the subject (as I've said elsewhere) and I'm going to try and
compile a list of contradictions and rules updates. If FASA ever does do
a 3rd Ed, I sincerely hope they eliminate all these paradoxical rules.
It's becoming a cumbersome miasma which makes the game harder to play.
--

Ashelock
mailto:woneal@*******.net

"They say it's a brave new world we're building. I say they're right,
and we'll all have to be pretty brave to live in it."

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals-disruption
Date:	Wed, 5 Feb 1997 21:31:41 -0500

Message no. 3 >> So now you use the grimoire, but not for the combat?
> Gee, were you born that smug or do you practice? If someone makes a

You tell 'em! Only I'm allowed to be arrogant and smug! :-D

> True, but ultimately irrelevant to the topic, it would not help a mage
>attempting to use weaker elementals to wear down more powerful ones, which
>was the original thread. Also, in retrospect, I agree that the healing
>spirits rule would not work. I would guess FASA designed the rules that
>way specifically to prevent the tactic I originally described. (ref.

Nonetheless, your tactic had a valid point: If you are worried about being
taken by a large mumber of Force 10 Elementals, since you can't summon their
equals, get some Force 6's. Facing a pack of (suddenly) force 4's is childs
play to a prepared team.

>revolves around the Black Book doing things one way, the Grimoire doing
>things another. Because of this I'm in the process of re-reading all the

Please remember that the Black Book is for First Ed. rules, and so it should
be paradoxical. 95% of the (nagic)information is printed in the Main book
or the Grimoire II, so I don't use Black book rules for magic at all.

>rules on the subject (as I've said elsewhere) and I'm going to try and
>compile a list of contradictions and rules updates. If FASA ever does do
>a 3rd Ed, I sincerely hope they eliminate all these paradoxical rules.

I don't think a 3rd edition is necessary...the rules aren't all that
contradictory, only vague. Perhaps a free document updating all the stuff,
then a reprinting with the modifications....

Send those contradictions and rules updates to Shadowrun Central, where my
ShadowLore FAQ for Shadowrun will be coming online in a week! (FASAMike, I
hope you are ready for this, I have about 50 questions with "FASA hasn't
said, and the books are clear" already...)

-=SwiftOne=-
Shadowrun Central: http://www.opp.psu.edu/~bxb24/sr/srcenter.htm

From:	Ashelock <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals-disruption
Date:	Wed, 5 Feb 1997 20:15:35 -0005

Message no. 4 On 5 Feb 97 at 21:31, Brett Borger wrote:

> >> So now you use the grimoire, but not for the combat?
> > Gee, were you born that smug or do you practice? If someone
> > makes a
>
> You tell 'em! Only I'm allowed to be arrogant and smug! :-D

ROFLMAO!
>
> > True, but ultimately irrelevant to the topic, it would not help
> > a mage
> >attempting to use weaker elementals to wear down more powerful ones,
> >which was the original thread. Also, in retrospect, I agree that the
> >healing spirits rule would not work. I would guess FASA designed the
> >rules that way specifically to prevent the tactic I originally
> >described. (ref.
>
> Nonetheless, your tactic had a valid point: If you are worried about
> being taken by a large mumber of Force 10 Elementals, since you can't
> summon their equals, get some Force 6's. Facing a pack of (suddenly)
> force 4's is childs play to a prepared team.
True, very true. But it only works if you've got equal numbers. If
they've got 6 mages to your one or two, your still in deep drek (not as
deep, but still pretty fragging deep). I have been pondering the use of
nature spirits (and digging more carefully through the rules this time,
damn if I'm going to make the same mistake twice! ;). Shaman seem to be
able to whistle them up almost as easily as watcher, but only one at a time.
If you could start a running battle inside a buidling, where it becomes a
cat and mouse game, a shaman might be able to even the odds given enough
time. Thats a thin solution, but something is better than nothing. So
far however the rules don't give an example of what happens when a nature
spirit opposes an elemental. In the case of nature spirit vs natures
spirit, higher force wins automatically. I would assume that they uses
the standard spirit vs spirit rules listed in the Black Book, p143.
Also, don't forget the team decker. I'm assuming that if things have
gotten serious enough that a corp has sent an elite team in, that the
runners have pretty much overwhelmed on site security. If that's true,
the decker has probably gotten control of the buildings security (and shut
down the SANs to prevent corp deckers getting in that way). How much of
building security and safety features could be used to help combat
elementals? Sprinklers have already been mentioned, what else? Sentry
guns perhaps? Air locks on sealed labs (air tight chambers trap air
elementals) maybe?

>
> >revolves around the Black Book doing things one way, the Grimoire doing
> >things another. Because of this I'm in the process of re-reading all
> >the
>
> Please remember that the Black Book is for First Ed. rules, and so it
> should be paradoxical. 95% of the (nagic)information is printed in the
> Main book or the Grimoire II, so I don't use Black book rules for magic
> at all.
Gads... and the confusion continues. Black book is second edition, Blue
book is first edition. Or did I get that backwards (cover looks black to
me <shrug> ;)?

>
> >rules on the subject (as I've said elsewhere) and I'm going to try and
> >compile a list of contradictions and rules updates. If FASA ever does
> >do a 3rd Ed, I sincerely hope they eliminate all these paradoxical
> >rules.
>
> I don't think a 3rd edition is necessary...the rules aren't all that
> contradictory, only vague. Perhaps a free document updating all the
> stuff, then a reprinting with the modifications....
I'd go for that. There have been some errata sheets for individual
books, but nothing for the game overall.
>
> Send those contradictions and rules updates to Shadowrun Central, where
> my ShadowLore FAQ for Shadowrun will be coming online in a week!
> (FASAMike, I hope you are ready for this, I have about 50 questions with
> "FASA hasn't said, and the books are clear" already...)
Sure, will do. Fro will kill me anyway if I do a 50k post to the list!
<grin>

>
> -=SwiftOne=-
> Shadowrun Central: http://www.opp.psu.edu/~bxb24/sr/srcenter.htm
--

Ashelock
mailto:woneal@*******.net

"They say it's a brave new world we're building. I say they're right,
and we'll all have to be pretty brave to live in it."

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals-disruption
Date:	Thu, 6 Feb 1997 03:19:41 -0500

Message no. 5 >> Nonetheless, your tactic had a valid point: If you are worried about
>> being taken by a large mumber of Force 10 Elementals, since you can't
>> summon their equals, get some Force 6's. Facing a pack of (suddenly)
>> force 4's is childs play to a prepared team.
> True, very true. But it only works if you've got equal numbers. If
>they've got 6 mages to your one or two, your still in deep drek (not as
>deep, but still pretty fragging deep). I have been pondering the use of

Half of very deep is still deep. True.

>nature spirits (and digging more carefully through the rules this time,
>damn if I'm going to make the same mistake twice! ;). Shaman seem to be
>able to whistle them up almost as easily as watcher, but only one at a time.

Nope. As quickly as a watcher, but not as easy. The Drain is the same as
for Elementals, so...

>guns perhaps? Air locks on sealed labs (air tight chambers trap air
>elementals) maybe?

'Cept for that astral thing....

> Sure, will do. Fro will kill me anyway if I do a 50k post to the
>list!
><grin>

Hear that everyone? Contribute to me and avoid Death by Fro!

(I heard he kills you with carp thwaps....a death with no dignity)

-=SwiftOne=-

From:	Ashelock <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: High powered elementals-disruption
Date:	Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:30:27 -0005

Message no. 6 On 6 Feb 97 at 3:19, Brett Borger wrote:

> >nature spirits (and digging more carefully through the rules this time,
> >damn if I'm going to make the same mistake twice! ;). Shaman seem to be
> >able to whistle them up almost as easily as watcher, but only one at a
> >time.
>
> Nope. As quickly as a watcher, but not as easy. The Drain is the same
> as for Elementals, so...
What I was thinking was say Force 4 hearth spirits. Not to tough to
conjure and with a decent Chr (say 4+) you should be able to reduce the
drain to L or nothing. Keep those going and wear them down. The big flaw
with that strategy is time. While your shaman is wearing them down, corp
sec reinforcements would likely be showing up. To quote from
Terminator,"How many cops are out there?" "All of them I think."

>
> >guns perhaps? Air locks on sealed labs (air tight chambers trap air
> >elementals) maybe?
>
> 'Cept for that astral thing....
Apparently not in this case. Confinement is one of the weaknesses for
Air Elementals, so what follows only applies to them. As I understand it,
it works on the Magic principle of what happens on the Physical gets
reflected on the Astral and vice versa... Reprecussion they call it.
Basically, since you have symbolically trapped it, because of it's nature
it actually becomes trapped. Just like pesticides will affect a manifest
bug spirit. They shouldn't, there's no biological reason for it (spirits
don't have a biology for one thing :), but it's a bug spirit, it's
symbollic so it works. Or at least that's how I understand it.
--

Ashelock
mailto:woneal@*******.net

"They say it's a brave new world we're building. I say they're right,
and we'll all have to be pretty brave to live in it."

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