Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject:	History...
Date:	Mon, 14 Dec 92 18:27:20 CET

Message no. 1 David Hoff:

If there is no 'official' information, I would suggest, as a general
guideline, that you look at history for ideas on what has happened in the
region recently. Why, you ask? Because of the fact that in ShadowRun there is
a tendency, usually more obvious in the political events, that history repeats
itself. The creation of the Lord Protector's office in England, the break-up
of Italy into quarrelsome city-states, and the (re-)secession of the
Confederacy are just a few examples of this.
In my own history of Germany (pre-Sourcebook) I used these general
guidelines (with GM approval) to create an country, that although unique, 'fit
in' with the rather meager information provided in the books thus far.

Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc, PhD.

Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark Thought Publications
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
<<<
[ Doctor Doom : jch8169@********.tamu.edu ]

From:	The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject:	History
Date:	Mon, 26 Jul 1993 20:12:45 -0500

Message no. 2 Let's see, I just went through the files I've downloaded over the past
8 months from this list. What do we have?

>Totems--lots of them, reprinted from magazines and submitted by ourselves.
>ShadowFurries, Racial Cosmetics, Cyborgs--mostly adaptations from Cyberpunk.
>GURPS lovers in Shadow clothing! Advantages, Disadvantages, point-based PCs.
>Brand-Name Cyberware--if you don't have it, get it. Most Excellent.
>Lotsa alternate Bioware, cyberware, and associated options
>New toys, like IC, Vectored Thrust Vehicles (2 versions) the Spinal VCR
mount, Full Cybernetic Interface, and Armored Beer.
>Rules Galore: Rigging, Blood Magic, the Matrix, Toxic Exposure, Magic/Bioware
Psychics, Replicants, Voodoo, Dead Zones, and other things.
>New people: Archtypes, Races

So I've got over 800K of material, downloaded, formatted in Wordperfect, and
laser printed. All of it. The point? Well, I probably won't use all of it-in
fact, there are definitely some things that I WON'T use, either because I
don't like the mechanics or they don't fit my vision of Shadowrun. But I
keep them because they're intriguing, and I know plenty of other people
are interested in this stuff but aren't on Internet.

Just thought I'd share that with you--It takes a while to get that much info
formatted properly and printed (especially when the printer won't cooperate).

J Roberson
With a GREAT sense of accomplishment

From:	Philip Morrison <morrison@*******.SCRI.FSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: History
Date:	Mon, 26 Jul 1993 21:15:26 EDT

Message no. 3 Kudo's to ya J

--Cowboy

Message no. 4 can someone tell me how long ago the last cycle of magic uptime was please?

From:	Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject:	history
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:56:22 +1000

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	history
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:49:26 +0200

Message no. 5 According to Simon and Fiona, at 16:56 on 18 Jul 00, the word on the
street was...

> can someone tell me how long ago the last cycle of magic uptime was please?

About 5200 years ago -- it ended on 12 August 3113 BC according to Ehran
the Scribe.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Yes, I am broadcasting myself!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject:	history
Date:	Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:36:25 +1000

Message no. 6 -----Original Message-----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: history

>According to Simon and Fiona, at 16:56 on 18 Jul 00, the word on the
>street was...

>> can someone tell me how long ago the last cycle of magic uptime was
please?

>About 5200 years ago -- it ended on 12 August 3113 BC according to Ehran
>the Scribe.

Thanks. Too soon to be any real use to me, I'll have to bend the facts for
my own use :?)
Is there any reason for that exact date then? It is pretty presise.

From:	Josh Harrison mataxes@****.net
Subject:	history
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:56:57 -0400

Message no. 7 ----- Original Message -----
From: Simon and Fiona <sfuller@******.com.au>
> >About 5200 years ago -- it ended on 12 August 3113 BC according to Ehran
> >the Scribe.
>
> Thanks. Too soon to be any real use to me, I'll have to bend the facts for
> my own use :?)
> Is there any reason for that exact date then? It is pretty presise.

I think it may be linked somehow to the Mayan Long Count, but I can't say
for sure.

Also, keep in mind that while the mana may have technically vanished at that
point in time, I suspect that levels may have been low for quite some time.
Keep in mind that not *everything* returned within 24 hours in Dec. 2011 --
not to mention the mana spikes and various other phenomena scattered
throughout the world. I would guess that the "death" of magic was similar to
its rebirth.

(Also, keep in mind that's the date according to Ehran the Scribe -- he may
be an authority on the subject since he was around at the time -- but he
might have his own reasons for fudging the truth a little bit.)

Now to connect this to Earthdawn (not that you asked, but I'll provide the
trivia anyhow), the height of the mana cycle would have come about 2500
years earlier; placing the height of the Theran Empire at 5500 BCE (give or
take a century or two). Also, one other thing to keep in mind is that Thera
was artificially maintaining the mana level; as a result the cycle may have
been thrown out of whack in some manner. There's no telling what can happen
when you tinker with the natural order of things.

Speaking of history, the Long Count, and the rest of it -- I've been reading
the "Secrets of Power" trilogy again (I like to go back and reread my game
fiction whhen I'm running a game) and in the third volume, "Find Your Own
Truth", Daniel Coleman (aka Howling Coyote) makes reference to the Hopi
count (and the Aleut) being different from the Mayan/Aztec one. At the time
he's responding to somebody's use of "the sixth world."

Has anybody else noticed this and taken a look at what he's referring to?
I'm probably going to do the research myself, but I'm curious to see what
other folks may have come across. It's all grist for the story mill, after
all.

Later.

-- Josh

From:	Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject:	history
Date:	Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:26:45 +1000

Message no. 8 -----Original Message-----
From: Josh Harrison <mataxes@****.net>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: history

>----- Original Message -----
>From: Simon and Fiona <sfuller@******.com.au>
>> >About 5200 years ago -- it ended on 12 August 3113 BC according to Ehran
>> >the Scribe.
>>
>> Thanks. Too soon to be any real use to me, I'll have to bend the facts
for
>> my own use :?)
>> Is there any reason for that exact date then? It is pretty presise.
>
>I think it may be linked somehow to the Mayan Long Count, but I can't say
>for sure.
>
Duh, I should have known this. So obvious, I'll have to hand in my Shadowrun
Fanatic badge. Thanks Josh.

From:	Damon nomad74@*********.net
Subject:	history
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:30:01 -0400

Message no. 9 The ebb and flow of the mana cycle, IIRC, is about 5,000 years. Roughly
based on the 'worlds' of the mayan calandar.

-Damon Harper
___________________________________
<nomad74@*********.net> <ICQ 4297972>

----- Original Message -----
From: Simon and Fiona <sfuller@******.com.au>
To: Shadowrn <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 2:56 AM
Subject: history

> can someone tell me how long ago the last cycle of magic uptime was
please?
>
>
>
>

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	history
Date:	Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:49:00 +0200

Message no. 10 According to Simon and Fiona, at 9:36 on 19 Jul 00, the word on the street
was...

> >About 5200 years ago -- it ended on 12 August 3113 BC according to Ehran
> >the Scribe.
>
> Thanks. Too soon to be any real use to me, I'll have to bend the facts
> for my own use :?)

Too soon? How is 5113 years ago "too soon"? :)

> Is there any reason for that exact date then? It is pretty presise.

It's the date mentioned in the text of Ehran's speech to the Young Elven
Technologists titled "Humans And The Cycle Of Magic;" it was published in
1990 and 1991 FASA flyers, and is also to be found in the logs for this
mailing list. That same speech gives the end of the Sixth World as 4 April
7137, BTW.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Can we scratch beneath this?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject:	history
Date:	Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:54:50 +1000

Message no. 11 -----Original Message-----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: history

>According to Simon and Fiona, at 9:36 on 19 Jul 00, the word on the street
>was...

>> >About 5200 years ago -- it ended on 12 August 3113 BC according to Ehran
>> >the Scribe.
>>
>> Thanks. Too soon to be any real use to me, I'll have to bend the facts
>> for my own use :?)

>Too soon? How is 5113 years ago "too soon"? :)

After reading the shattering news that the Australia book may be years away
yet :?), I decided to say stuff it and make my own stuff up. Australia had
all these nifty things like snakes a foot across and goannas (monitor
lizards to the birthplace challenged) that were 8 feet long not including
the tail (everything here was huge 40 000 years ago). I thought it would be
cool if these fossils and remains were actually awakened creatures from the
last upcycle that Harlequin et al. did not reach in time to cover up because
they were so far away. The only problem is the creatures died out about the
time the Aboriginals arrived and started hunting all the big stuff to
extinction, much earlier than 5200 years ago. Even accounting for 3000 years
of upcycle wont count for this, and going back to the second world isn't far
enough either. Unless of course the remains of Awakened creatures give off
faulty readings on regular dating tests, and the aforementioned coverup
squads made sure the error was never corrected. That'll work. maybe some of
the carbon is locked up in the Awakened tissue, and that tissue breaks down
as soon as the mana level drops, giving a faulty radiocarbon dating.
There is precedent, by the way, those big lizard looking things that the
orks ride in Earthdawn are real creatures. Their remains were an important
part of Indian legends, being called thunder horses.

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	history
Date:	Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:12:49 +0200

Message no. 12 According to Simon and Fiona, at 21:54 on 19 Jul 00, the word on the
street was...

> After reading the shattering news that the Australia book may be years away
> yet :?)

At least FASA is mentioning it at all again :)

> The only problem is the creatures died out about the time the
> Aboriginals arrived and started hunting all the big stuff to extinction,
> much earlier than 5200 years ago. Even accounting for 3000 years of
> upcycle wont count for this, and going back to the second world isn't
> far enough either.

Not to blow my own trumpet (too much...), but have you read the article I
wrote for NERPS: DragonLore? (A net.book that came to nothing, but what
was written was later included in NERPS: Lost And Found; I'm talking about
the superbly-titled "Where, When, and What Do Dragons Come From?" bit :)
It may have a solution of sorts for your problem. I hope it can still be
found at http://shadowrun.html.com/nerps, but I'm not sure it's still
there (read: I haven't checked).

Additionally, who says there was nothing before the First World? Like
almost all dates, that's just when somebody started counting, so there's
bound to be worlds with negative numbers you can use.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Can we scratch beneath this?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Josh Harrison mataxes@****.net
Subject:	history
Date:	Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:21:47 -0400

Message no. 13 ----- Original Message -----
From: Simon and Fiona <sfuller@******.com.au>
> Unless of course the remains of Awakened creatures give off
> faulty readings on regular dating tests, and the aforementioned coverup
> squads made sure the error was never corrected.

There is actually a minor precedent for this sort of thing -- assuming of
course you're willing to accept a plot device from one of the early novels.

In "Never Trust An Elf" by Rob Charette, a scientist tries to do a
radio-carbon dating on the wood that supports the large crystal maguffin
everybody is chasing after. The result that he gets back is (according to
popularly accepted scientific theory of the day) impossible. I think it read
older than it should have been; I forget the details, not having read the
book in some time. I wouldn't find it too much of a stretch to have other
"unexplained" phenomena surrounding other paranormal phenomena -- after all,
that's why they're *para*normal.

-- Josh

From:	Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject:	history
Date:	Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:11:42 +1000

Message no. 14 -----Original Message-----
From: Josh Harrison <mataxes@****.net>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, July 20, 2000 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: history

>----- Original Message -----
>From: Simon and Fiona <sfuller@******.com.au>
>> Unless of course the remains of Awakened creatures give off
>> faulty readings on regular dating tests, and the aforementioned coverup
>> squads made sure the error was never corrected.
>
>There is actually a minor precedent for this sort of thing -- assuming of
>course you're willing to accept a plot device from one of the early novels.
>
>In "Never Trust An Elf" by Rob Charette, a scientist tries to do a
>radio-carbon dating on the wood that supports the large crystal maguffin
>everybody is chasing after. The result that he gets back is (according to
>popularly accepted scientific theory of the day) impossible. I think it
read
>older than it should have been; I forget the details, not having read the
>book in some time. I wouldn't find it too much of a stretch to have other
>"unexplained" phenomena surrounding other paranormal phenomena -- after
all,
>that's why they're *para*normal.
>
>-- Josh
>
Ah, too true. Forty foot crocodiles ahoy!

From:	Aaron L. Bodoh-Creed abodoh@***.umd.edu
Subject:	history
Date:	Thu, 20 Jul 2000 02:28:13 -0400

Message no. 15 Hi,
Stupid question - Is there a way to search the archives for this speech?

-Aaron

> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-admin@*********.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.com]On Behalf Of Gurth
> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 5:49 AM
> To: shadowrn@*********.com
> Subject: Re: history
>
>
> According to Simon and Fiona, at 9:36 on 19 Jul 00, the word on
> the street
> was...
>
> > >About 5200 years ago -- it ended on 12 August 3113 BC
> according to Ehran
> > >the Scribe.
> >
> > Thanks. Too soon to be any real use to me, I'll have to bend the facts
> > for my own use :?)
>
> Too soon? How is 5113 years ago "too soon"? :)
>
> > Is there any reason for that exact date then? It is pretty presise.
>
> It's the date mentioned in the text of Ehran's speech to the Young Elven
> Technologists titled "Humans And The Cycle Of Magic;" it was published in
> 1990 and 1991 FASA flyers, and is also to be found in the logs for this
> mailing list. That same speech gives the end of the Sixth World
> as 4 April
> 7137, BTW.
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> Can we scratch beneath this?
> -> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
> -> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-
>
> GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
> PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
> Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
>
>

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	history
Date:	Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:19:21 +0200

Message no. 16 According to Aaron L. Bodoh-Creed, at 2:28 on 20 Jul 00, the word on the
street was...

> Stupid question - Is there a way to search the archives for this speech?

I don't know, but I just searched my Old ShadowRN folder to see what I had
saved on the matter. (BTW, I made a mistake -- it's in a 1989 and a 1990
flyer; I've got the 1990 one.) Here's what I've come up with:

The text of the 1989 flyer is to be found in a message to this list by Ken
Webb <hbphy009@****.CSUN.EDU>, dated Thu, 1 Dec 1994 20:40:13 +0800, with
the subject line "Here is Ehran's speech." This should be enough for you
to locate it by manually searching the logs at dumpshock.com.

The 1990 version was posted by me <gurth@******.nl> on Sun, 7 Sep 1997
11:57:46 +0100, subject line "Re: Humans and the Cycle of Magic". If you
have trouble finding these posts, I can forward both either to you
personally or, if there's enough interest, to the list as a whole.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Can we scratch beneath this?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject:	history
Date:	Thu, 20 Jul 2000 17:42:55 GMT

Message no. 17 >From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
>The 1990 version was posted by me <gurth@******.nl> on Sun, 7 Sep 1997
>11:57:46 +0100, subject line "Re: Humans and the Cycle of Magic". If you
>have trouble finding these posts, I can forward both either to you
>personally or, if there's enough interest, to the list as a whole.

I wouldn't mind a copy.

Phil

Let us assume we have a can opener.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	Ashley Griffiths dagdamor@***********.co.uk
Subject:	history
Date:	Sat, 22 Jul 2000 10:16:50 +0100

Message no. 18 ----- Original Message -----
From: Simon and Fiona <sfuller@******.com.au>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: history

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
> To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
> Date: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 7:47 PM
> Subject: Re: history
>
>
> >According to Simon and Fiona, at 9:36 on 19 Jul 00, the word on the
street
> >was...
>
> >> >About 5200 years ago -- it ended on 12 August 3113 BC according to
Ehran
> >> >the Scribe.
> >>
> >> Thanks. Too soon to be any real use to me, I'll have to bend the facts
> >> for my own use :?)
>
> >Too soon? How is 5113 years ago "too soon"? :)
>
>
> After reading the shattering news that the Australia book may be years
away
> yet :?), I decided to say stuff it and make my own stuff up. Australia had
> all these nifty things like snakes a foot across and goannas (monitor
> lizards to the birthplace challenged) that were 8 feet long not including
> the tail (everything here was huge 40 000 years ago). I thought it would
be
> cool if these fossils and remains were actually awakened creatures from
the
> last upcycle that Harlequin et al. did not reach in time to cover up
because
> they were so far away. The only problem is the creatures died out about
the
> time the Aboriginals arrived and started hunting all the big stuff to
> extinction, much earlier than 5200 years ago. Even accounting for 3000
years
> of upcycle wont count for this, and going back to the second world isn't
far
> enough either. Unless of course the remains of Awakened creatures give off
> faulty readings on regular dating tests, and the aforementioned coverup
> squads made sure the error was never corrected.

If you want a scientific account. IN very hot climates eg the australian
deserts. Carbon dating can give unusual dates, because the heat and
humidituty effects it simehow. That is why they instead use a different
technic measuring the rate of transfer of naturallt occuring enantiomers
from their D form to thier L form. (dont you just love chemistry).

Dagda Mor

What was once proved is now only imagined

From:	Walter Scheper ratlaw@*******.com
Subject:	history
Date:	Wed, 19 Jul 2000 15:44:09 -0500

Message no. 19 Josh Harrison wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Simon and Fiona <sfuller@******.com.au>
> > Unless of course the remains of Awakened creatures give off
> > faulty readings on regular dating tests, and the aforementioned coverup
> > squads made sure the error was never corrected.
>
> There is actually a minor precedent for this sort of thing -- assuming of
> course you're willing to accept a plot device from one of the early novels.
>
> In "Never Trust An Elf" by Rob Charette, a scientist tries to do a
> radio-carbon dating on the wood that supports the large crystal maguffin
> everybody is chasing after. The result that he gets back is (according to
> popularly accepted scientific theory of the day) impossible. I think it read
> older than it should have been; I forget the details, not having read the
> book in some time. I wouldn't find it too much of a stretch to have other
> "unexplained" phenomena surrounding other paranormal phenomena -- after
all,
> that's why they're *para*normal.
>
> -- Josh

Also, there's major precedence for this sort of thing in plain old
mundane carbon dating. Its notoriously inaccurate due to major shifts
in the amount of carbon absorbed during different time periods. Any one
using radiocarbon dating has to do all sorts of weird calculations that
depend on *when* they think the material comes from so that they can use
the appropriate table, and we don't know all the carbon levels for all
of time. If you don't mind doing research I'd suggest cruising about
the web and seeing if you can find any info about that sort of problem
and you might be able to use it.

Course there are other, more accurate ways of dating, but they're
expensive and you need quite a bit of material to date. Not sure how
the science of archaeology will have changed in the Awakened world of
Shadowrun, but I'll bet they haven't gotten around the problems of
dating.

That is all
- Walter

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