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Message no. 1
From: Manolis Skoulikas greatworm@*****.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 04:34:32 +0200
Is it possible to use multiple foci in spellcasting or conjuring and
get

a) two foci of the same kind giving cumulative dice (use two power foci

together)?

b) an overall amount of additional dice greater than your sorcery
or conjuring?



In the rules it is possible but is the spirit of the game served when a

mage with sorcery 6 rolls an additional 27 dice from a power focus 7,

apower focus 3, a spell category focus 10 and an expendable focus 7?
And still use his spell pool for defense, or drain.
Watch for those power balls stack off by the threes and fours.



If you can find a decent indication that this is not possible in the

rules (pages please) or make a decent argument on these dice being spell

pool dice, I think we could help remedy an oversight of FASA corp IMHO.



The Wiz
Message no. 2
From: Elindor Quinn rjakins@******.murdoch.edu.au
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 11:24:43 +0800
On 20 Mar 00, at 4:34, Manolis Skoulikas wrote:

> In the rules it is possible but is the spirit of the game served when a
> mage with sorcery 6 rolls an additional 27 dice from a power focus 7,
> apower focus 3, a spell category focus 10 and an expendable focus 7?
> And still use his spell pool for defense, or drain.

Foci are cumulative. Plain and simple.

> Watch for those power balls stack off by the threes and fours.

And, if you're magic rating is 13 or less, watch your magic rating
drop rapidly as focus addiction sets in. Not to mention that your
foci are going to be assailed from the astral. With the combination
above, the magician (assuming Magic 6) has to make 2-3 tests for
magic loss when activating his foci (depends on the order he does
it in). And that can very quickly debilitate a magician.
All mime artists must be registered with Interpol.
- John Fairhall, Lie of the Day ML
Message no. 3
From: Archimage4@***.com Archimage4@***.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 22:58:25 EST
Elindor spoke thusly:

>Foci are cumulative. Plain and simple.

What about Expendable Spell Foci? One of my players used four or five of
these suckers on one spell. He was so happy about rolling 26 dice for his
Nova spell! If he tries a trick like this again, should I make him roll for
Focus addiction?

--The Archimage
Message no. 4
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 23:33:14 EST
First of all, prior to the reply I've got here, I've got a personal request.
Would you please quit the "double line" posting. It tends to create a mess
with some "reply to" posting styles (standard internet being one of them).


In a message dated 3/19/00 9:42:37 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
greatworm@*****.com writes:

> Is it possible to use multiple foci in spellcasting or conjuring and
> get
>
> a) two foci of the same kind giving cumulative dice (use two power foci
> together)?

Yes.

> b) an overall amount of additional dice greater than your sorcery
> or conjuring?

Yes.

> In the rules it is possible but is the spirit of the game served when a
> mage with sorcery 6 rolls an additional 27 dice from a power focus 7,
> apower focus 3, a spell category focus 10 and an expendable focus 7?

Well, at this point, though it could be done, and is done, I'm looking at the
sheer karma cost this individual has put into getting such. I'd say that is
more than enough "worthwhile effort" IMO. And, when all is said and done,
"Foci Addiction" becomes a problem at this stage too and probably should be
monitored carefully by the GM.

> And still use his spell pool for defense, or drain.

Well, yes, he could. But he'd have to keep a very close tall on those dice,
because the spell pool is effected by Power Foci, and s/he just might get
carried away.

> Watch for those power balls stack off by the threes and fours.

Yeah, and your point is?

> If you can find a decent indication that this is not possible in the
> rules (pages please) or make a decent argument on these dice being spell
> pool dice, I think we could help remedy an oversight of FASA corp IMHO.

The number of spell pool dice that can be used is limited by the magic
attribute of the magician IIRC. Additionally, in most cases, I don't care
how many dice you throw, the success level is often times affected by the
Force of the spell itself and serves as a fairly nice "cap" in many cases.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 5
From: bahwi bahwi@************.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 22:43:06 +0000 (GMT)
On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 Archimage4@***.com wrote:

> What about Expendable Spell Foci? One of my players used four or five of
> these suckers on one spell. He was so happy about rolling 26 dice for his
> Nova spell! If he tries a trick like this again, should I make him roll for
> Focus addiction?

Yes, he's still using foci, even though they go afterwards he is still
using them. He felt the power surge and will want it again, make it cost.
Just like drug addiction, eventually you'll need more to get the same
effect, it's just regular foci last and last.

--
"MY SIGS ARE GONE!!!!!!"
- bahwi
bahwi@************.com
Message no. 6
From: Manolis Skoulikas greatworm@*****.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:27:12 +0200
Archimage4@***.com wrote:
>
> Elindor spoke thusly:
>
> >Foci are cumulative. Plain and simple.
>
> What about Expendable Spell Foci? One of my players used four or five of
> these suckers on one spell. He was so happy about rolling 26 dice for his
> Nova spell! If he tries a trick like this again, should I make him roll for
> Focus addiction?
>
> --The Archimage

Seves him right is what. And try making him take an adiction to one of
these expendable beauties. They don't come cheap and they are easy to
destroy in the astral since the are not bonded with karma. (hehe)

The Wiz
Message no. 7
From: Manolis Skoulikas greatworm@*****.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:50:33 +0200
HHackerH@***.com wrote:

> Well, at this point, though it could be done, and is done, I'm looking at the
> sheer karma cost this individual has put into getting such. I'd say that is
> more than enough "worthwhile effort" IMO. And, when all is said and done,
> "Foci Addiction" becomes a problem at this stage too and probably should be
> monitored carefully by the GM.
>
With a focus formula on your hands you can make a power focus 5 in less
than
four months with only 1 karma to bond, if you put your mind to it and
buy yourself
a talismongering chip rating 15+ (costs less than 100k if it's
specialised).
Repeat he process and in one year you have 3 force 5 power foci. You
will be at least
grade 3 initiate by that time, so forget the focus addiction.


> > And still use his spell pool for defense, or drain.
>
> Well, yes, he could. But he'd have to keep a very close tall on those dice,
> because the spell pool is effected by Power Foci, and s/he just might get
> carried away.
>
> > Watch for those power balls stack off by the threes and fours.
>
> Yeah, and your point is?
>

First spell for absorbing the spell defence, shielding or reflecting.
Second spell for inflicting a moderate or or serious damage.
third spell: Congrats, you just killed the magister!
That 's my point! Can you say game imbalance?


> > If you can find a decent indication that this is not possible in the
> > rules (pages please) or make a decent argument on these dice being spell
> > pool dice, I think we could help remedy an oversight of FASA corp IMHO.
>
> The number of spell pool dice that can be used is limited by the magic
> attribute of the magician IIRC. Additionally, in most cases, I don't care
> how many dice you throw, the success level is often times affected by the
> Force of the spell itself and serves as a fairly nice "cap" in many cases.
>
Actually the maximum spell pool that can be used in spellcasting
is limited by the sorcery skill, not the magic attribute.
If you combine this with a force 6 spell it is a matter of pure
arithmetic that your taget will die die die, if you also get to roll
more dice than he does since your taget number will be usually 6 or
less.

What I was looking for was not an affirmation than you can roll those
dice officially, but any ideas as to how one can consider these dice
spell pool dice and therefore be forced not to roll more additional
dice than his sorcery skill.

Can foci dice be cosidered spell pool dice?
If any ideas about that can be thory can be forwarded, I would
be very grateful!

In expectance of your input,

The Wiz
Message no. 8
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 18:51:59 EST
In a message dated 3/20/00 4:58:41 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
greatworm@*****.com writes:

> With a focus formula on your hands you can make a power focus 5 in less
> than
> four months with only 1 karma to bond, if you put your mind to it and
> buy yourself
> a talismongering chip rating 15+ (costs less than 100k if it's
> specialised).

Uhm... a what chip at rating 15????? No, not even no, but HELL NO!!!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 9
From: Manolis Skoulikas greatworm@*****.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 02:02:12 +0200
HHackerH@***.com wrote:

> Uhm... a what chip at rating 15????? No, not even no, but HELL NO!!!
>

It has an availability of 5 regardless of rating. HELL YES!!!

The Wiz
Message no. 10
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 20:36:56 -0500
Wiz scared me by saying:
> It has an availability of 5 regardless of rating. HELL YES!!!
>
> The Wiz

Buddy, you told me in an earlier message that you weren't munchkin. When you
say a rating 15 chip for a magical oriented skill all I hear is "WE
REPRESENT THE LOLLIPOP GUILD!!!".

You're breaking with the basic concepts again. Who would make a chip with
such a rating? Not to mention what enchanter or talismonger would provide
their talents to create such a knowledge base. Such knowledge comes with
experience and wouldn't just be put out on the market as it would be
comparable to giving a 14 year old a bazooka.

Just because you can crunch the numbers doesn't mean it makes sense. Once
again balance the rules with the spirit of the game.

:)

Smilin' Jack
Franklin Isshinryu School of Karate
http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/RallyRd/mlfrankl/fiskhome.htm
Message no. 11
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:58:39 EST
In a message dated 3/20/00 7:09:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
greatworm@*****.com writes:

> > Uhm... a what chip at rating 15????? No, not even no, but HELL NO!!!
> >
>
> It has an availability of 5 regardless of rating. HELL YES!!!

Hmmm ... interesting twist. Here's a question, what the hell is this guy
doing with a chip that requires ... wait, have to do the math for this ... 15
x 15 x 3 (Talismongering is not a specialization after all) = 675 MP and
costs 101,250 Nuyen??? Sweet God, no wonder they are munchkinizing the game
with Orichalcum factories .. they need it to buy everything else. Oh wait,
it's obvious there is a fun little mismatched moment of communication here
you missed.

(taken from page 296 of SR3)
Memory Size: To determine how Mp a skillsoft takes up, use the Program Size
Table (see p. 22of the Matrix section). Base skill skillsofts have a
multiplier of 3, specializations a multiplier of a 2. See the Program Costs
and Availability Table (p. 304) for skillsoft cost, Availability and Street
Index.


Okay, that's interesting ... let's flip to page 304 for a second ....

ah, there it is. that table with the cyberdeck stuff.

Program Costs and Availability. I'd just like to point out the rating 10+
programs have an Availability of 16/30 DAYS, with a cost modifier of Size x
1,000 in nuyen (which even invalidates what I wrote earlier... here, I'll
correct it for you now ... we're now up to 625,000 Nuyen for that chip, prior
to Street Index...).

Oh yeah, also remember that chips above rating 3 (IIRC, it might be rating 4)
are considered illegal or controlled. That means you aren't going to be able
to get it legally without some kind of help. Hmmm... Street Index of a 3. I
guess we're now up to 1,875,000 Nuyen for that chip. Roll etiquette please,
target number is a 16... successes of course reduce the time of 30 days...
that isn't so bad.

Yep, if this were even close to me I'd fall over and just start laughing my
ass off. There's only two characters in our POWERGAMES that have Enchanting
like this. One of them is mine, and the other is Duane's ... both of whom
have passed the 8 year mark in how long they've been played. From them, I'd
expect possibilities like this ... from anyone else ... convince me, because
the newbie colors are really glaring through here ...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 12
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 01:19:05 -0600
:(taken from page 296 of SR3)
:Memory Size: To determine how Mp a skillsoft takes up, use the Program Size
:Table (see p. 22of the Matrix section). Base skill skillsofts have a
:multiplier of 3, specializations a multiplier of a 2. See the Program
Costs
:and Availability Table (p. 304) for skillsoft cost, Availability and Street
:Index.
:
:
:Okay, that's interesting ... let's flip to page 304 for a second ....

While I agree that a rating 15 skillsoft is an abuse of thier spirit,
the rules make it as avialbable and expensive (per MP) as a normal
skillsoft. The refrence to p. 304 is misleading; afaik, skillsofts cost 100
¥ per MP (for activesofts) regardless of rating. Check the errata- I know
this has come up before, and Mike said the prices (and hence availibilities)
listed on the skillsoft price table, NOT p. 304, were the ones to use.
If the rating 15 soft annoys you, how about a rating 8 soft with a
rating 8 CED backing it up?

OTOH, isn't enchanting (at least the kind used to make orichalcum) a
magical skill? I'd say that if a mundane can't do it, you can't make a
skillsoft for it.

Mongoose

__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Message no. 13
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:25:05 +0100
According to Manolis Skoulikas, at 23:50 on 20 Mar 00, the word on the
street was...

> With a focus formula on your hands you can make a power focus 5 in less
> than
> four months with only 1 karma to bond, if you put your mind to it and
> buy yourself
> a talismongering chip rating 15+ (costs less than 100k if it's
> specialised).

(First, a small request: could you shorten your line width a bit? All your
recent posts appear like the paragraph above, with one or two words on
each even line.)

A rating 15 chip should be _rather_ difficult to get old of... Yes, I know
the SR3 main rules say all activesofts have an Availability of 6/4 days
and knowsofts are 5/4 days, but I don't think stuff rated that high should
be as easily available as the basic, magician-wannabe stuff (i.e. rating
1).

> Repeat he process and in one year you have 3 force 5 power foci. You
> will be at least grade 3 initiate by that time, so forget the focus
> addiction.

If you've got to earn the Karma to do three initiations, you won't have
the time to enchant three foci, IMHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What a pretty life you have...
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:25:05 +0100
According to HHackerH@***.com, at 22:58 on 20 Mar 00, the word on the
street was...

[snip]
> Okay, that's interesting ... let's flip to page 304 for a second ....
>
> ah, there it is. that table with the cyberdeck stuff.
>
> Program Costs and Availability. I'd just like to point out the rating 10+
> programs have an Availability of 16/30 DAYS, with a cost modifier of Size x
> 1,000 in nuyen (which even invalidates what I wrote earlier... here, I'll
> correct it for you now ... we're now up to 625,000 Nuyen for that chip, prior
> to Street Index...).

To be fair, Keith, SR3 contradicts itself when it comes to skillsoft
prices. On the one hand it refers to the cyberdeck programs costs, while
on the other, it lists prices for activesofts and knowsofts.

Probably the easiest fix is to put the Availability for skillsofts at,
say, (rating)/(rating x 2) days, which takes care of most attempts to get
very high-rated chips.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What a pretty life you have...
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: Manolis Skoulikas greatworm@*****.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:50:57 +0200
HHackerH@***.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 3/20/00 7:09:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> greatworm@*****.com writes:
>
> > > Uhm... a what chip at rating 15????? No, not even no, but HELL NO!!!
> > >
> >
> > It has an availability of 5 regardless of rating. HELL YES!!!
>
> Hmmm ... interesting twist.

> Oh yeah, also remember that chips above rating 3 (IIRC, it might be rating 4)
> are considered illegal or controlled. That means you aren't going to be able
> to get it legally without some kind of help. Hmmm... Street Index of a 3. I
> guess we're now up to 1,875,000 Nuyen for that chip. Roll etiquette please,
> target number is a 16... successes of course reduce the time of 30 days...
> that isn't so bad.
>

Great man, you just fragged one of my players!
I owe you one. He will go red when I tell him (hehe)
How could I have misssed it?!
That goes to show:
When I'm wrong, I'M WRONG!

Still a rating 8 specialization would n't be too hard to make
and it would cost 128.000
Not bad 1.5 units of orichalcum.
It could produce 4 extra units per circulation.
What I'm tryng to say, is an ordinary player can make the mentioned
foci if not in a ayear, then in a year and two months and still pay 3
karma!
It isn't such a great investment for 15 extra dice. Comments?


> Yep, if this were even close to me I'd fall over and just start laughing my
> ass off. There's only two characters in our POWERGAMES that have Enchanting
> like this. One of them is mine, and the other is Duane's ... both of whom
> have passed the 8 year mark in how long they've been played. From them, I'd
> expect possibilities like this ... from anyone else ... convince me, because
> the newbie colors are really glaring through here ...
>

Easy opn the laughs chummerino. We seem to have been rolepleying for an
almost equal amount of time and you wouldn't want to meet 'Wiz' as a
character. (Well actually you would, since he 's relaxed on his world
views
these days)

you 'll have to play a lot of sessions yet to call me a newbie...

The Wiz
Message no. 16
From: Manolis Skoulikas greatworm@*****.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:51:01 +0200
Sebastian Wiers wrote:
>

> While I agree that a rating 15 skillsoft is an abuse of thier spirit,
> the rules make it as avialbable and expensive (per MP) as a normal
> skillsoft. The refrence to p. 304 is misleading; afaik, skillsofts cost 100
> ¥ per MP (for activesofts) regardless of rating.

Oh God please don't let it be so! I have to take that chip from him!
I certainly agree that is as great a rules bending as can be.
But what can you say to players that have the rules to back them up?
You can't make 'rulings' all the time!

Check the errata- I know
> this has come up before, and Mike said the prices (and hence availibilities)
> listed on the skillsoft price table, NOT p. 304, were the ones to use.
>

I can't seem to find anything on my errata sheet. Can you forward an
answer or
give me the exact address where it's posted?


If the rating 15 soft annoys you, how about a rating 8 soft with a
> rating 8 CED backing it up?
>
> OTOH, isn't enchanting (at least the kind used to make orichalcum) a
> magical skill? I'd say that if a mundane can't do it, you can't make a
> skillsoft for it.
>
> Mongoose
>
Talismongering is a background skill for enchanting and is a
knowledge skill that can be learned by mundanes also.
But I still feel dizzy with the CED comment, even if you
have to pay the essence. A rating 4 or 5 would do the trick
and you would still get your low karma foci in 3 moths per unit
Sounds nauseating , does n't it?

< repeats mandra:
This is not happening
This is not happening
This is not happening
exits meditative state>

Ve Vill hafe to Shink of Vays to Shtop Zhat!
<Munchkin police>

The Wiz
Message no. 17
From: Iridios iridios@*****.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 07:25:09 -0500
HHackerH@***.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 3/20/00 7:09:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> greatworm@*****.com writes:
>
> > > Uhm... a what chip at rating 15????? No, not even no, but HELL NO!!!
> > >
> >
> > It has an availability of 5 regardless of rating. HELL YES!!!

<snip>

> Yep, if this were even close to me I'd fall over and just start laughing my
> ass off. There's only two characters in our POWERGAMES that have Enchanting
> like this. One of them is mine, and the other is Duane's ... both of whom
> have passed the 8 year mark in how long they've been played. From them, I'd
> expect possibilities like this ... from anyone else ... convince me, because
> the newbie colors are really glaring through here ...

Let him have it, just don't tell him that it's really a Winternight
"God" chip, that makes him *think* he has that level of talismongering
skill. <EGMG>


--
Iridios
"Accept what you cannot avoid,
Avoid what you cannot accept."
Message no. 18
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:33:05 -0500
At 06:50 AM 3/21/00, Manolis Skoulikas wrote:
>Still a rating 8 specialization would n't be too hard to make
>and it would cost 128.000
>Not bad 1.5 units of orichalcum.
>It could produce 4 extra units per circulation.
>What I'm tryng to say, is an ordinary player can make the mentioned
>foci if not in a ayear, then in a year and two months and still pay 3
>karma!
>It isn't such a great investment for 15 extra dice. Comments?

Question: With a rating 8 Talismongering (Alchemy) chip, a person can make
a large batch of orichalcum that is worth several hundred thousand nuyen.
More likely, he can make a larger quantity of it over the course of a year.
So why would that chip exist in the first place?

One of the reasons that it is so expensive is because it is so rare. One of
the reasons that it is so rare is that very few people can make it. So if
you're a mage that has the ability to create this substance, why would you
make a computer chip that allows a significantly greater number of
individuals to create that same substance? Orichalcum is not inherently
worth 188,000 per batch, its worth that because there's not much around. If
there suddenly appears an easier way for a person to make this stuff, the
law of supply and demand states that the price is going to drop.

So why would a mage let a chip like this be created?

Question 2: I'd have to check (I'm a bit rusty on Talismongering), but
doesn't it actually involve a mage with a Magic Rating? I know the skill
itself is mundane because some things require just the skill, but the
actual alchemy does require a Magic Rating IIRC. I also know that a
skillsoft needs a skillsoft link of comparable rating to the soft. That
requires a not insignificant amount of essence. So doesn't that affect his
MR and therefore the enchanting?

I'm not as sure about this question, but even if there is no effect, it
doesn't seem likely that a mage would take this much cyberware in himself.
If done during game time, the surgery calls for Magic Loss checks, since
neural cyberware is always drastic invasive surgery.

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 19
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:28:35 -0700
Sebastian Wiers wrote:

>:(taken from page 296 of SR3)
>:Memory Size: To determine how Mp a skillsoft takes up, use the Program Size
>:Table (see p. 22of the Matrix section). Base skill skillsofts have a
>:multiplier of 3, specializations a multiplier of a 2. See the Program
>Costs
>:and Availability Table (p. 304) for skillsoft cost, Availability and Street
>:Index.
>:
>:
>:Okay, that's interesting ... let's flip to page 304 for a second ....
>
> While I agree that a rating 15 skillsoft is an abuse of thier spirit,
>the rules make it as avialbable and expensive (per MP) as a normal
>skillsoft.

Yes, but just because it can be done, doesn't mean that it's been
done. And if someone out there created a rating 15 skillsoft, how would it
end up in the hands of a PC?

And finally sometimes as a GM you just have to say, "No." IMHO. If the
player says, "But it's in the rules," the GM can always say, "Just because

it's in the rules, doesn't mean it's in the game."

> OTOH, isn't enchanting (at least the kind used to make orichalcum) a
>magical skill? I'd say that if a mundane can't do it, you can't make a
>skillsoft for it.

Now there's a sticky wicket. Hm.... I'd go along with Mongoose on this one.

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday ... and all is well."
Message no. 20
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:01:29 EST
In a message dated 3/21/00 2:04:53 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
m0ng005e@*********.com writes:

> While I agree that a rating 15 skillsoft is an abuse of thier spirit,
> the rules make it as avialbable and expensive (per MP) as a normal
> skillsoft. The refrence to p. 304 is misleading; afaik, skillsofts cost 100
> ¥ per MP (for activesofts) regardless of rating. Check the errata- I know
> this has come up before, and Mike said the prices (and hence
availibilities)
> listed on the skillsoft price table, NOT p. 304, were the ones to use.

Really???? I'll have to ask him about this, I got a reversal on it.

> If the rating 15 soft annoys you, how about a rating 8 soft with a
> rating 8 CED backing it up?

Hmmm... interesting twist, I wasn't aware the damn things could go that high.
Maybe we just have that many failsafe's running loose in the games here.

> OTOH, isn't enchanting (at least the kind used to make orichalcum) a
> magical skill? I'd say that if a mundane can't do it, you can't make a
> skillsoft for it.

Enchanting is, Talismongering is NOT. That is where the next loophole comes
in.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 21
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:37:27 -0600
:I can't seem to find anything on my errata sheet. Can you forward an
:answer or
:give me the exact address where it's posted?

I don't think it was posted; somebody asked me about it in persoanl
mail, and was nice enough to mention (but not forward) the answer they got
form Mike when the eventually did get such an answer. He said that the
prices on p. 296 are the ones you use for skillsofts.


:Talismongering is a background skill for enchanting and is a
:knowledge skill that can be learned by mundanes also.

Talsimongering covers collecting materials for enchantment and making
fetishes. It does NOT cover the making of foci. Since you need a magic
rating to make foci, I'd say the skill needed to do it (enchanting) can not
be recorded on a skillsoft. Generally such skills / tests do not allow any
defaulting, either, and if you did default to a skill that was on a
knowsoft, I think something would be "missing", and the attempt would fail.

Mongoose

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Message no. 22
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:23:41 EST
In a message dated 3/21/00 5:24:59 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.nl writes:

> To be fair, Keith, SR3 contradicts itself when it comes to skillsoft
> prices. On the one hand it refers to the cyberdeck programs costs, while
> on the other, it lists prices for activesofts and knowsofts.
>
> Probably the easiest fix is to put the Availability for skillsofts at,
> say, (rating)/(rating x 2) days, which takes care of most attempts to get
> very high-rated chips.

Or to stay consistent and let the contradiction that is in the books correct
itself. Now I grant that the ratings suggestion you are making aren't bad
ones either. However, I just don't see them "flying" in the days to come
(crosses fingers, prays to god).

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 23
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:30:44 EST
In a message dated 3/21/00 6:59:57 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
greatworm@*****.com writes:

>
> Still a rating 8 specialization would n't be too hard to make
> and it would cost 128.000
> Not bad 1.5 units of orichalcum.
> It could produce 4 extra units per circulation.
> What I'm tryng to say, is an ordinary player can make the mentioned
> foci if not in a ayear, then in a year and two months and still pay 3
> karma!
> It isn't such a great investment for 15 extra dice. Comments?

Oh yeah, Alchemy is part of Enchanting, and there is no such thing as an
Enchanting Skill chip... it's a magical skill. Talismongering is (as of 3rd
Ed) part of the Knowledge skill set.

And that year and two months is a year and two months when he so far below
his lifestyle costs and who knows what else that it won't be a viable
character in the universe any longer.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 24
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:35:17 EST
In a message dated 3/21/00 7:03:44 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
iridios@*****.com writes:

> > Yep, if this were even close to me I'd fall over and just start laughing
my
> > ass off. There's only two characters in our POWERGAMES that have
> Enchanting
> > like this. One of them is mine, and the other is Duane's ... both of
whom
> > have passed the 8 year mark in how long they've been played. From them,
I'
> d
> > expect possibilities like this ... from anyone else ... convince me,
> because
> > the newbie colors are really glaring through here ...
>
> Let him have it, just don't tell him that it's really a Winternight
> "God" chip, that makes him *think* he has that level of talismongering
> skill. <EGMG>

Yeah, this is a way of working on this angle as well. Wouldn't mind someone
trying that again now that I think about it, but the players have gotten
sharper (all this playing does that to ya).

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 25
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 19:42:22 +0100
According to HHackerH@***.com, at 12:23 on 21 Mar 00, the word on the
street was...

> > Probably the easiest fix is to put the Availability for skillsofts at,
> > say, (rating)/(rating x 2) days, which takes care of most attempts to get
> > very high-rated chips.
>
> Or to stay consistent and let the contradiction that is in the books correct
> itself. Now I grant that the ratings suggestion you are making aren't bad
> ones either.

All my suggestions like that one should be taken as suggested house rules.
I do know that I will be using the above when someone wants to buy
skillsofts, if only to avoid the attempt by one player some time ago to
get a rating 10 linguasoft for a foreign run. (What stopped him back then
was the cost, which IIRC was higher than what they were getting paid for
the run.)

> However, I just don't see them "flying" in the days to come (crosses
> fingers, prays to god).

We can only hope that some sort of rule appears in a future book. But I
somhow doubt it, unless FASA reserves a section in The Matrix for
skillsofts or something...

--
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What a pretty life you have...
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 26
From: Manolis Skoulikas greatworm@*****.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 00:48:22 +0200
Sebastian Wiers wrote:
>
> Talsimongering covers collecting materials for enchantment and making
> fetishes. It does NOT cover the making of foci. Since you need a magic
> rating to make foci, I'd say the skill needed to do it (enchanting) can not
> be recorded on a skillsoft. Generally such skills / tests do not allow any
> defaulting, either, and if you did default to a skill that was on a
> knowsoft, I think something would be "missing", and the attempt would fail.
>
You are definetely right about enchanting, it cannot be made into
a skillsoft since it's a magical skill. But Talismongering is a
knowledge skill and therefore can be integrated in to a knowsoft.
Of course the enchanting character would have to possess enchanting
as a skill and he would use the talismongering knowsoft as a background
skill that could provide aditional successes to the enchanting test on
a ratio of 2/1.
As for not covering the making of foci, I would have to admit that I
do have some reservations on that too. Even though, MitS states it
is the background skill for Enchanting (and therefore assists ALL
enchanting tests) I only see a mention of focus design on the
sentence following. I don't know but it bugs me.
I would like to hear some opinions on that.
Do you think talismongering could aid in making foci?

The Wiz
Message no. 27
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:05:09 -0800 (PST)
<BigSnip(TM)>
> Talismongering is a background skill for enchanting
and is a knowledge skill that can be learned by
mundanes also. But I still feel dizzy with the CED
comment, even if you have to pay the essence. A rating
4 or 5 would do the trick and you would still get your
low karma foci in 3 moths per unit Sounds nauseating ,
does n't it?
>
> < repeats mandra:
> This is not happening
> This is not happening
> This is not happening
> exits meditative state>
>
> Ve Vill hafe to Shink of Vays to Shtop Zhat!
> <Munchkin police>
>
> The Wiz

Be cool, Manolis.

You want to take the chip off your player?

Well, I can help you there, and you won't even have to
do anything as crass as "confiscating" the chip.

Have a look at p40 of MiTS - Talismongering. Read up
on just what it is you can do with the talismongering
skill. Laugh a bit.

You can thank me later.

;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 28
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:07:44 -0800
At Sebastian Wiers, 01:19 AM 21/03/00 wrote:

>:(taken from page 296 of SR3)
>:Memory Size: To determine how Mp a skillsoft takes up, use the Program Size
>:Table (see p. 22of the Matrix section). Base skill skillsofts have a
>:multiplier of 3, specializations a multiplier of a 2. See the Program
>Costs
>:and Availability Table (p. 304) for skillsoft cost, Availability and Street
>:Index.
>:
>:
>:Okay, that's interesting ... let's flip to page 304 for a second ....
>
> While I agree that a rating 15 skillsoft is an abuse of thier spirit,
>the rules make it as avialbable and expensive (per MP) as a normal
>skillsoft. The refrence to p. 304 is misleading; afaik, skillsofts cost 100
>¥ per MP (for activesofts) regardless of rating. Check the errata- I know
>this has come up before, and Mike said the prices (and hence availibilities)
>listed on the skillsoft price table, NOT p. 304, were the ones to use.
> If the rating 15 soft annoys you, how about a rating 8 soft with a
>rating 8 CED backing it up?

If this is in the errata, someone better find it for me, as it's not in
Hlair's, and mine are as up to date as possible.
--
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Comments/Questions accepted, flames dropped into the abyss.
Message no. 29
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:11:44 -0800 (PST)
<Snippola(TM)>
> You are definetely right about enchanting, it cannot
be made into a skillsoft since it's a magical skill.
But Talismongering is a knowledge skill and therefore
can be integrated in to a knowsoft. Of course the
enchanting character would have to possess enchanting
as a skill and he would use the talismongering
knowsoft as a background skill that could provide
aditional successes to the enchanting test on a ratio
of 2/1.
> As for not covering the making of foci, I would have
to admit that I do have some reservations on that too.
Even though, MitS states it is the background skill
for Enchanting (and therefore assists ALL enchanting
tests) I only see a mention of focus design on the
sentence following. I don't know but it bugs me.
> I would like to hear some opinions on that.
> Do you think talismongering could aid in making
foci?
>
> The Wiz

No. Well, yes. And no.

1. Talismongering by itself can ONLY be used for focus
design (not creation), although it's tougher to use
Talismongering than Enchanting (+2 to target numbers),
gathering materials to make the foci (again, not
creation), refining materials (which gives you the
base components for alchemy, fetishes and ritual
materials) and making said fetishes and ritual
materials. It cannot be used to make radicals, foci,
or orichalcum. So, Manolis, unless your "rating 15
Talismongering chip" guy is a mage with enchanting,
you don't have anything to worry about here. :)

2. I would hesitate to allow enchanters to use
Talismongering as a complimentary skill for any of the
enchanting processes - I might, but I'd have to
seriously think about it, or be seriously persuaded.

3. I would NEVER allow a chipped Talismongering skill
to be used as a complimentary skill to Enchanting. For
that matter, I would NEVER allow ANY chipped skill to
act as a complimentary skill for any other skill
(chipped or otherwise). I'd suggest that other GMs do
the same. I see it as a basic incompatibility between
what you know and can do and what the chip knows and
can MAKE you do. Remember, if you have a skill and
chip the same skill, the chip overrides your natural
skill (at least, it used to - not sure if it still
does in SR3). I think you can draw parallels between
that and using skillsofts as complimentary skills.
IMO, it's either-or. Not both.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 30
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 20:45:35 -0500
At 08:11 PM 3/21/00, Rand Ratinac wrote:

>3. I would NEVER allow a chipped Talismongering skill
>to be used as a complimentary skill to Enchanting. For
>that matter, I would NEVER allow ANY chipped skill to
>act as a complimentary skill for any other skill
>(chipped or otherwise). I'd suggest that other GMs do
>the same. I see it as a basic incompatibility between
>what you know and can do and what the chip knows and
>can MAKE you do. Remember, if you have a skill and
>chip the same skill, the chip overrides your natural
>skill (at least, it used to - not sure if it still
>does in SR3). I think you can draw parallels between
>that and using skillsofts as complimentary skills.
>IMO, it's either-or. Not both.

I would never allow an ACTIVE chipped skill to be used as a complimentary
skill for any test. An activesoft is taking over your bodies reactions and
making it go through the motions of some skill. For a knowsoft, all you
have is data, like a textbook. So it could be used as a reference manual to
form the basis of a complimentary test for an active skill.

The easiest example I can think of is demolitions. Chemistry can be used
for a complimentary test to look up references for explosives formulas to
cook up and set explosives. It shouldn't matter whether you know the
chemistry skill yourself or you have it on a chip.

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 31
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:23:47 -0500
On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 19:42:22 +0100 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> writes:
> We can only hope that some sort of rule appears in a future book.
> But I
> somhow doubt it, unless FASA reserves a section in The Matrix for
> skillsofts or something...
>

Well, I do know that Cannon Companion will have Simsense and Skillsoft
rules in it (along with a lot of new things that are freaky :-) (Don't
know if it has the answer to any of THIS stuff, but hey, thats what GMs
are for)

Now, if only it were out....


Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 32
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:35:58 -0600
Dvixen said-
>> Check the errata- I know
>>this has come up before, and Mike said the prices (and hence
availibilities)
>>listed on the skillsoft price table, NOT p. 304, were the ones to use.
>> If the rating 15 soft annoys you, how about a rating 8 soft with a
>>rating 8 CED backing it up?
>
>If this is in the errata, someone better find it for me, as it's not in
>Hlair's, and mine are as up to date as possible.

Its not in the errata. Its just one of those "I asked Mike because I
was confused, here's what he said" kinda things.
For what its worth, using the prices and street indexes from p.296 with
the aviablibitlies from 304 seems like a good idea to me...


Mongoose

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Message no. 33
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:20:24 +0100
According to Sommers, at 20:45 on 21 Mar 00, the word on the street was...

> The easiest example I can think of is demolitions. Chemistry can be used
> for a complimentary test to look up references for explosives formulas to
> cook up and set explosives.

For making explosives, I'd say you can roll Chemistry and use Demolitions
as a complimentary skill. The other way around seems a bit strange to me,
though it's sort of plausible. However, using Chemistry as a complimentary
skill when actually setting the explosives -- well, no. Engineering seems
like a much better choice.

> It shouldn't matter whether you know the chemistry skill yourself or
> you have it on a chip.

That bit, I agree with.

--
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What a pretty life you have...
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 34
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:29:35 -0500
At 04:20 AM 3/22/00, Gurth wrote:
>According to Sommers, at 20:45 on 21 Mar 00, the word on the street was...
>
> > The easiest example I can think of is demolitions. Chemistry can be used
> > for a complimentary test to look up references for explosives formulas to
> > cook up and set explosives.
>
>For making explosives, I'd say you can roll Chemistry and use Demolitions
>as a complimentary skill. The other way around seems a bit strange to me,
>though it's sort of plausible. However, using Chemistry as a complimentary
>skill when actually setting the explosives -- well, no. Engineering seems
>like a much better choice.

You're right, it was late last night. For setting the explosives
Engineering (specialized into Civil) is the best choice. I think that the
cooking explosives is actually in MM, but I was too lazy to look it up.
Either way, it makes sense that one can help with the other.

> > It shouldn't matter whether you know the chemistry skill yourself or
> > you have it on a chip.
>
>That bit, I agree with.

Woo hoo! I got Gurth to agree with me!
<does the Hamster dance at work>

Okay, so I was up late... ;)

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 35
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:57:06 -0600
:You're right, it was late last night. For setting the explosives
:Engineering (specialized into Civil) is the best choice. I think that the
:cooking explosives is actually in MM, but I was too lazy to look it up.
:Either way, it makes sense that one can help with the other.

That specializations shopuld be "structural" I think. Civil engeneering
just means you do designs for the governement, and (afaik) it focuses (if it
is actualy a specialty, and not a just a professional title) on knowing how
large a structure (sewer, parking lot, stadium) you need for how many
people. Structural engeneering focuses on how to keep things you build from
falling down- or, incidentally, what best to wreck when you WANT something
to fall down. A math co-processor would also be a GREAT help for
"Structural Engeneering" tests.

Mongoose


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Message no. 36
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:22:17 +0100
According to Sommers, at 9:29 on 22 Mar 00, the word on the street was...

> You're right, it was late last night. For setting the explosives
> Engineering (specialized into Civil) is the best choice.

Specialized into whatever it is you're trying to blow up, I'd say.
Assuming you have a specialization in the first place, for demolishing a
machine in a factory, you'd use a different one than when leveling a
house, or for blowing up a vehicle. (No, I don't know what those different
specializations are called :)

> I think that the cooking explosives is actually in MM, but I was too
> lazy to look it up. Either way, it makes sense that one can help with
> the other.

M&M, page 108: "Any task involving the manufacture of explosives requires
the Demolitions Skill, though Chemistry can be used as a Complimentary
Skill for such tests." I'd say its exactly the other way around, but I am
neither a chemist (one year's worth of a chemical engineering course is
about it) nor a demolitionist (is that a word? I do own a US Army manual
on the subject, though) so maybe we need some opinions of those who do
know about both these topics...

> >That bit, I agree with.
>
> Woo hoo! I got Gurth to agree with me!
> <does the Hamster dance at work>
>
> Okay, so I was up late... ;)

"Drunk" sounds more like it :)

--
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What a pretty life you have...
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 37
From: ROGER PERRY smithsguild@*******.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 01:26:37 GMT
Quick reality check, doesn't manufacture of orichulam require radicals of
copper, gold, silver, and mercury. Each of these
take 28 days of circulation as well BEFORE orichulam may be
attempted...

Anyone buying large quantities of these 'lesser' radicals from
other Talismongers...

1) might as well hang out a sign saying orichulam being made here.
(inviting runs against such a 'sweet' pay-off)

2)would jack up the price of these 'lesser' radicals to outragous prices
due to laws of supply and demand.

Just some thoughts on this...

Lilblue
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Message no. 38
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 18:28:53 -0800 (PST)
> >3. I would NEVER allow a chipped Talismongering
> skill
> >to be used as a complimentary skill to Enchanting.
> For
> >that matter, I would NEVER allow ANY chipped skill
> to
> >act as a complimentary skill for any other skill
> >(chipped or otherwise). I'd suggest that other GMs
> do
> >the same. I see it as a basic incompatibility
> between
> >what you know and can do and what the chip knows
> and
> >can MAKE you do. Remember, if you have a skill and
> >chip the same skill, the chip overrides your
> natural
> >skill (at least, it used to - not sure if it still
> >does in SR3). I think you can draw parallels
> between
> >that and using skillsofts as complimentary skills.
> >IMO, it's either-or. Not both.
>
> I would never allow an ACTIVE chipped skill to be
> used as a complimentary
> skill for any test. An activesoft is taking over
> your bodies reactions and
> making it go through the motions of some skill. For
> a knowsoft, all you
> have is data, like a textbook. So it could be used
> as a reference manual to
> form the basis of a complimentary test for an active
> skill.
>
> The easiest example I can think of is demolitions.
> Chemistry can be used
> for a complimentary test to look up references for
> explosives formulas to
> cook up and set explosives. It shouldn't matter
> whether you know the
> chemistry skill yourself or you have it on a chip.
>
> Sommers

I guess that's where our interpretations differ - or
maybe I'm just a bit more munchkin-paranoid than you
are. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 39
From: Brian Moore airionis@*****.com
Subject: Hokus Focus!
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:30:04 -0800 (PST)
--- ROGER PERRY <smithsguild@*******.com> wrote:
> Quick reality check, doesn't manufacture of orichulam require radicals
> of copper, gold, silver, and mercury. Each of these
> take 28 days of circulation as well BEFORE orichulam may be
> attempted...
>
> Anyone buying large quantities of these 'lesser' radicals from
> other Talismongers...
>
> 1) might as well hang out a sign saying orichulam being made here.
> (inviting runs against such a 'sweet' pay-off)
>
> 2)would jack up the price of these 'lesser' radicals to outragous
> prices due to laws of supply and demand.

Both are completely logical points. I've always said that the prices
for buying and selling radicals are completely unrealistic. No magician
is going to take 28 days making radical Lead (retail value Y120/unit) when
they could make radical Gold (retail value Y40,000/unit). Of course that
assumes they could find raw or refined Gold, but you get the point. I
usually put a price of around Y5,000/unit for any radical, with a demand
premium on Orichalcum components. Actually, Gold, Silver, and Copper are
probably commonly used to make lots of different types of foci, increasing
their demand. But I can't see anyone buying radical Mercury except to
make Orichalcum.

Your first point is a good reason Mages should make their own
radicals if they plan on making Orichalcum. My favorite character was a
naive mage with Enchanting 6. His teammates got rather upset when they
found out he was hitting all the Talismongering shops he could find,
looking for radical gold, silver, mercury, and copper. He ended up making
the radical gold and mercury himself (mostly from scratch), while his
teammates acquired the silver and copper through relatively anonymous
transactions. There are lots of run possibilities for and against
Enchanters.

By the way, making Orichalcum is not the best Enchanting cash cow.
Picture low force Power Foci made from natural components (like a stick of
wood) and cheap Talismonger shop supplied radicals (lead, herbs, and
crystals). A decent Enchanter can put out several of these a month
(retail value around Y500,000/month), due to the low target number. The
initial outlay is only Y100,000 for the enchanting shop and a bit more for
the focus design. I don't recall if you need an Enchanting Library to
actually perform Enchanting, but add Y9,000 for a simple rating 3 library
to the initial outlay if so. Materials and lifestyle are under
Y20,000/month. The only thing you need is a couple mages a month with
lots of money who want power foci with very low bonding cost. Security
will definitely eat into your profits, but only a bit. You don't maintain
a valuable inventory (except for the shop itself), and you can always hire
additional security for the stick transfer (certified credstick for power
focus). Of course lots can go wrong, but I'm sure you can see that this
is a lot better than making Orichalcum.

====Brian Moore
Gamer. I play everything.

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Message no. 40
From: Glenn Sprott wasntka44@*********.net
Subject: Hokus Focus
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 23:21:50 -0500
>> The easiest example I can think of is >demolitions.
>> Chemistry can be used
>> for a complimentary test to look up references >for
>> explosives formulas to
>> cook up and set explosives. It shouldn't matter
>> whether you know the
>> chemistry skill yourself or you have it on a chip.
>>
>> Sommers

I think I have to disagree with you here. It's one thing to reference
something that you already know a little bit about, but it's
completely different to try and decipher material in which you have no
experience.

Looking up formulas on a chemistry chip would prove difficult for
someone with no reference from which to work. Considering there are
so many different aspects of chemistry (bio-chemistry, alchemy,
nuclear chemistry, etc...) how would a person, who's only reference is
explosives, find what he needed in an extensive knowledge chip? Also,
even if he found what it was he was looking for, deciphering the
chemical formulas and equations would be another obstacle for him to
over-come.

My point is that without the basic knowledge of a subject, it is hard
to know where to look, let alone understand, what it is you are
referencing.

Point in fact: Open-book tests in college... If you have ever taken
one, then you know that they are not as easy as everyone expects them
to be. It's not knowing the material, it's knowing where to look, and
then applying it.

Now, I suppose the "search" could be circumvented using some sort of
search program when using the chip, but this may not be so easy.
Anyone who has tried a search on the Web has found that it can still
be very difficult to find what you want.

As an after-thought... Not enough could ever be said for "hands-on
experience." Playing with chemicals and compounds daily is completely
different from being knowledgeable about them. I think I'm pretty
knowledgeable about gun cleaning and maintenance, but I don't think I
want (or would even be allowed) to clean someone's gun. To me, there
is a huge difference.

I'm getting off-topic... sorry.

Wasntka (Wolf)
...Never allow your family to get hurt...
...Never allow your friends to stand alone...
...Never betray your loved one...
...Never betray yourself...
Message no. 41
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Hokus Focus
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 11:00:02 +0100
According to Glenn Sprott, at 23:21 on 22 Mar 00, the word on the street
was...

> My point is that without the basic knowledge of a subject, it is hard
> to know where to look, let alone understand, what it is you are
> referencing.

Knowledge skillsofts ("knowsofts") aren't textbooks or reference works.
They _are_ the actual skill -- you never learned Chemistry skill, but as
soon as you plug in that rating 6 Chemistry knowsoft, you've got
(probably) the equivalent of a university degree in chemistry. Which you
also immediately lose as soon as you remove the chip again.

> Point in fact: Open-book tests in college... If you have ever taken
> one, then you know that they are not as easy as everyone expects them
> to be. It's not knowing the material, it's knowing where to look, and
> then applying it.

Which gives a bit of an unfair advantage to those people who can remember
very well where things are in a book... But that's rather OT :)

> Now, I suppose the "search" could be circumvented using some sort of
> search program when using the chip, but this may not be so easy.
> Anyone who has tried a search on the Web has found that it can still
> be very difficult to find what you want.

I hate websearches... I never seem to find what I want to :(

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Further Reading

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