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From:	"Weird Thoughts Inc." <MKNABUSCH@******.BITNET>
Subject:	Horrors?
Date:	Tue, 7 Sep 1993 10:23:10 -0500

Message no. 1 Someone fill me in. I had to work for two days and lost
a lot of mail. What are the Horrors?
Second, did anyone read the first little snippet with
the big H in it? He mentions something called the
Invae? Could this possibly be what they have planned?
I know of no other reference to it anywhere.
Harlequin
-Aka Michael Knabusch

From:	"Dylan Norhtup (PHY)" <northrup@*****.CAS.USF.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Horrors?
Date:	Tue, 7 Sep 1993 14:33:05 -0400

Message no. 2 On Tue, 7 Sep 1993, Weird Thoughts Inc. wrote:

> Someone fill me in. I had to work for two days and lost
> a lot of mail. What are the Horrors?

Go to your local hobby store and check out EarthDawn, or if they still
have them pick up the free (that's right, FREE) teasers that FASA put out
about a month and a half ago about EarthDawn with the sample characters
and the intro adventure.

> Second, did anyone read the first little snippet with
> the big H in it? He mentions something called the
> Invae? Could this possibly be what they have planned?
> I know of no other reference to it anywhere.

Probably just another name for the Horrors.

Doc X
no .sig today

From:	Andrew <wadycki@********.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:	Horrors
Date:	Sun, 9 Jul 1995 22:20:48 -0500

Message no. 3 I was wondering if anyone had made stats for horrors for Shadowrun?

-Andrew

From:	Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 1995 13:26:23 +0930

Message no. 4 Andrew wrote:
>
> I was wondering if anyone had made stats for horrors for Shadowrun?

The horrors aren't in Shadowrun, thankyouverymuch.

For extremely minor horrors, look in Harlequin's Back... which will also
explain why they aren't in Shadowrun.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***

From:	Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 1995 14:02:48 +0200

Message no. 5 > > I was wondering if anyone had made stats for horrors for Shadowrun?
>
> The horrors aren't in Shadowrun, thankyouverymuch.

Well there are the wraiths, they are horrors. You can get stats
for them in the Guide to Paranimals of Europe.

--
GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++$S++L++$>++++ L++>+++ E--- N+ h*(+)
W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) f+ r- n!(-) y?

Moderator of alt.c00ld00z (coolness in general)

From:	Andrew <wadycki@********.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:50:35 -0500

Message no. 6 On Mon, 10 Jul 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> > I was wondering if anyone had made stats for horrors for Shadowrun?
>
> The horrors aren't in Shadowrun, thankyouverymuch.
>
> For extremely minor horrors, look in Harlequin's Back... which will also
> explain why they aren't in Shadowrun.

If I remember correctly there is that nice little thing in Harlequin's
back that says how FASA may do more horror stuff depending on us. Also
the fact that there are a couple horrors running around. I guess I
should have been clearer in my request. I know about wraiths, and the
few mior horrors in Harlequin's Back. What I want to know is if anyone
has used more powerful ones in their campaigns? I am doing a campaign
that has a horror playing with all the major characters.

-Andrew

From:	Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Tue, 11 Jul 1995 01:00:22 +0930

Message no. 7 Jani Fikouras wrote:
>
> > > I was wondering if anyone had made stats for horrors for Shadowrun?
> >
> > The horrors aren't in Shadowrun, thankyouverymuch.
>
> Well there are the wraiths, they are horrors. You can get stats
> for them in the Guide to Paranimals of Europe.

Not playing Earthdawn, I have a different view point. The wraiths from
Europe book can't be horrors, if the Horrors are the Enemy. Why? Because
the Enemy isn't here yet, in any strength. (Unless they are VERY minor
Horrors, or creations of the servants of the Enemy).

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***

From:	Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Tue, 11 Jul 1995 01:10:19 +0930

Message no. 8 Andrew wrote:
>
> If I remember correctly there is that nice little thing in Harlequin's
> back that says how FASA may do more horror stuff depending on us. Also
> the fact that there are a couple horrors running around. I guess I
> should have been clearer in my request. I know about wraiths, and the
> few mior horrors in Harlequin's Back. What I want to know is if anyone
> has used more powerful ones in their campaigns? I am doing a campaign
> that has a horror playing with all the major characters.

Hmm... I suggest you go back and re-read Harlequin's back. It explicitly
states there that the major Horror's can't get into this world yet.

As an alternative: There ARE servants of the Enemy around. Look at
whatisface, Darke. Use one of these as your major NPC. You could even have
him conjuring minor horrors instead of spirits (his active use of magic
allows them to breach the gap for a while, maybe?) and make up the stats as
you go.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***

From:	Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 1995 19:21:27 +0200

Message no. 9 > > > > I was wondering if anyone had made stats for horrors for Shadowrun?
> > >
> > > The horrors aren't in Shadowrun, thankyouverymuch.
> >
> > Well there are the wraiths, they are horrors. You can get stats
> > for them in the Guide to Paranimals of Europe.
>
> Not playing Earthdawn, I have a different view point. The wraiths from
> Europe book can't be horrors, if the Horrors are the Enemy. Why? Because
> the Enemy isn't here yet, in any strength. (Unless they are VERY minor
> Horrors, or creations of the servants of the Enemy).

Dunno I havent played ED (yet) but Harlequin's comments are pretty
clear as far as I am concerned. I think that wraiths are some sort
of small horrors or as you said creations of horrors.

--
GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++$S++L++$>++++ L++>+++ E--- N+ h*(+)
W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) f+ r- n!(-) y?

Moderator of alt.c00ld00z (coolness in general)

From:	Andrew <wadycki@********.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 1995 12:33:23 -0500

Message no. 10 On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> > Well there are the wraiths, they are horrors. You can get stats
> > for them in the Guide to Paranimals of Europe.
>
> Not playing Earthdawn, I have a different view point. The wraiths from
> Europe book can't be horrors, if the Horrors are the Enemy. Why? Because
> the Enemy isn't here yet, in any strength. (Unless they are VERY minor
> Horrors, or creations of the servants of the Enemy).

Wraiths and Invae are both types of Horrors. As for if Horrors could be
here, yes. They could be summoned at a high mana location. They would
probablely be useing servants though. To explain a little more, the
horror is more trying to corrupt the pcs and use them. It is able to be
partially here and has many servants. As for whether or not they can be
here, I hae decided to have one more than minor horror running around in
my campaign, being the major plot line. I was wondering if anyone had
stats on them to compare. You guys sit around and make predator stats and
you get on my case for Horrors. If I remember, there are also horror
items, bottled demon, to name one. Such items if around would allow
horrors to use there power. The fact that horrors once here are able to
stay here makes it even more likely that they are around. (They needed
the spike from the Ghost Dance to get here, but could stay once they
crossed over, I am sure someone could summon them in the right places
then.) If no one had stats on horrors, that was all I wanted to know.

-Andrew

From:	Andrew <wadycki@********.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 1995 12:35:02 -0500

Message no. 11 On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> Andrew wrote:
> As an alternative: There ARE servants of the Enemy around. Look at
> whatisface, Darke. Use one of these as your major NPC. You could even have
> him conjuring minor horrors instead of spirits (his active use of magic
> allows them to breach the gap for a while, maybe?) and make up the stats as
> you go.

I was planing on doing something along these lines, and I was going to
make up the stats as I go, but I thought I would ask the list for
possible stats to compare to, before I made them.

-Andrew

From:	Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 1995 21:04:10 +0200

Message no. 12 > > > Well there are the wraiths, they are horrors. You can get stats
> > > for them in the Guide to Paranimals of Europe.
> >
> > Not playing Earthdawn, I have a different view point. The wraiths from
> > Europe book can't be horrors, if the Horrors are the Enemy. Why? Because
> > the Enemy isn't here yet, in any strength. (Unless they are VERY minor
> > Horrors, or creations of the servants of the Enemy).
>
> Wraiths and Invae are both types of Horrors.

Insect spirits are no horrors, they just precede the horrors by a few
centuries because of the magic level. Dont ask me where but either
Harlequit et. al or some horror refer to the invae as inferior cretures
that are not worth a second thought. (It could have been an ED novel)

> As for if Horrors could be
> here, yes. They could be summoned at a high mana location.

I once again cant remember were I got this from, but I remember reading
somewhere that aztecnology mages keep themselves busy by trying to summon
old aztec gods, and guess who these gods are ?

--
GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++$S++L++$>++++ L++>+++ E--- N+ h*(+)
W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) f+ r- n!(-) y?

Moderator of alt.c00ld00z (coolness in general)

From:	Alex van der Kleut <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 1995 15:33:10 -0400

Message no. 13 Check out the new book by Nigel Findley, finished right before he died.
It's set in Hawaii and is very... illuminating about various topics
listed. Almost uncanny how the thread follows the literature.

Slovotsky's Law #9 revised

Sometimes you can't do anything about something that sucks-til later.

From:	David Herr <dherr@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Mon, 10 Jul 1995 15:43:41 EDT

Message no. 14 >> If I remember correctly there is that nice little thing in Harlequin's
>> back that says how FASA may do more horror stuff depending on us. Also
>> the fact that there are a couple horrors running around. I guess I
>> should have been clearer in my request. I know about wraiths, and the
>> few mior horrors in Harlequin's Back. What I want to know is if anyone
>> has used more powerful ones in their campaigns? I am doing a campaign
>> that has a horror playing with all the major characters.
>
>Hmm... I suggest you go back and re-read Harlequin's back. It explicitly
>states there that the major Horror's can't get into this world yet.
>
>As an alternative: There ARE servants of the Enemy around. Look at
>whatisface, Darke. Use one of these as your major NPC. You could even have
>him conjuring minor horrors instead of spirits (his active use of magic
>allows them to breach the gap for a while, maybe?) and make up the stats >as you
go.

Then there is the realistic alternative. Horros don't exist and won't exist in
the shadowrun univers for several thousand more years. That is unless the magic cycle of
the sixth world lasts only 200 years or fewer. Evidence of this is that in EarthDawn the
therans (the dominant empire) had several hundred years to prepare for and research the
scourge. This is after they had already been using magic for several thousand years.
admitedly there were horrors around before the scourge but not before the founding of
thera, well into the fourth world. Also we have several more importand events to come
before we can start to even sugest that horrors will start to apear. Such as the aperance
of the T'skrang, Windling, and Obsidiman (and you thought trolls were tough!) races. The
other important event is a major advancement in the powers of adepts.

From:	Jason Salem <jsalem@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Tue, 11 Jul 1995 00:04:56 -0500

Message no. 15 >Jani Fikouras wrote:
>>
>> > > I was wondering if anyone had made stats for horrors for Shadowrun?
>> >
>> > The horrors aren't in Shadowrun, thankyouverymuch.
>>
>> Well there are the wraiths, they are horrors. You can get stats
>> for them in the Guide to Paranimals of Europe.
>
>Not playing Earthdawn, I have a different view point. The wraiths from
>Europe book can't be horrors, if the Horrors are the Enemy. Why? Because
>the Enemy isn't here yet, in any strength. (Unless they are VERY minor
>Horrors, or creations of the servants of the Enemy).
>
Sorta. They are attributed with stirring things up, and feeding on
turmoil that they create. They are more Astrally present than a physically
manifesting Horror. So it's reasonable to guess that they are either
the weakest of the Horrors, and thus the first through, or something
that much like the Invae manifests shortly before the Horrors are able to.

From:	Jason Salem <jsalem@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Tue, 11 Jul 1995 00:10:13 -0500

Message no. 16 > I once again cant remember were I got this from, but I remember reading
>somewhere that aztecnology mages keep themselves busy by trying to summon
>old aztec gods, and guess who these gods are ?
>

That would explain why we keep hearing that the Astral is terrible to look
at there...

From:	Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Tue, 11 Jul 1995 14:47:37 +0930

Message no. 17 Andrew wrote:
>
> Wraiths and Invae are both types of Horrors.

Invae are spirits, not Horrors...

> If I remember, there are also horror items, bottled demon, to name one.

I could go and check, but I thought Bottled Demon was more of a spirit (or
maybe an avatar) than a Horror... after all, it was deliberately trapped,
and I can't see the mages of Earthdawn trying to _trap_ a Horror.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***

From:	Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Tue, 11 Jul 1995 14:52:33 +0930

Message no. 18 David Herr wrote:
> Then there is the realistic alternative. Horros don't exist and won't exist
in the shadowrun univers for several thousand more years. That is unless the magic cycle
of the sixth world lasts only 200 years or fewer.

The problem with this is the artifically heightened mana levels in certain
areas (such as the site of the Great Ghost Dance). The mana levels are not
uniform. In "Harlequin's Back", evidence is provided that the Enemy, which
we can assume to be the Horrors, can reach into our world (the servants of
the Enemy are proof, such as Drake).

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***

From:	"Lindblom Fredrik, Training" <fredrik.lindblom@*******.TELIA.SE>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Tue, 11 Jul 1995 09:57:00 PDT

Message no. 19 >Check out the new book by Nigel Findley, finished right before he died.

Is he dead? When? How? Why?

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Tue, 11 Jul 1995 11:40:22 +0200

Message no. 20 >> > I was wondering if anyone had made stats for horrors for Shadowrun?
>
> Well there are the wraiths, they are horrors.

Not quite, I believe. The ED rulebook speaks about "wraith-like creatures"
stalking cities _before_ the Scourge (i.e. the time when the Horrors roamed
the earth), so maybe wraiths are low-level (not that way :) Horrors, maybe
they're like the insects -- not Horrors, but often mistaken for them.

Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Tue, 11 Jul 1995 11:40:42 +0200

Message no. 21 >Wraiths and Invae are both types of Horrors.

Thanks for playing, here's a trash can for you to take home.

Invae (insect spirits) are not Horrors. In fact the Horrors will chew them
up and spit them out when they come. Invae were there for hundreds of years
before the Scourge in Earthdawn, and managed to survive it as well, but
they're not Horrors.
As for wraiths, -H- says they're "the future if we don't stem the tide now,"
which implies they are indeed Horrors, or at the very least Horror-contructs.

Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Tue, 11 Jul 1995 11:40:53 +0200

Message no. 22 >I can't see the mages of Earthdawn trying to _trap_ a Horror.

Wouldn't say that too loud if I were you. There is, for instance, a spell
called Restrain Horror, which does what the name implies...

Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)

From:	"S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Tue, 11 Jul 1995 09:21:01 -0400

Message no. 23 > I could go and check, but I thought Bottled Demon was more of a spirit (or
> maybe an avatar) than a Horror... after all, it was deliberately trapped,
> and I can't see the mages of Earthdawn trying to _trap_ a Horror.

I didn't think of it as a spirit at all.. It's just a very baaaaaad magical
item to play with. I think someone was just relating it to the Horrors
rather than saying it WAS one, but since I don't play Earthdawn I can't be
sure.

Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|"Much of the economic decay of south-east
My opinions are my opinions. | Asia...is undoubtedly due to a heedless and
Please don't blame anyone else. | shameful neglect of trees."-E.F. Schumacher

From:	Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Tue, 11 Jul 1995 15:59:17 +0200

Message no. 24 > > I could go and check, but I thought Bottled Demon was more of a spirit (or
> > maybe an avatar) than a Horror... after all, it was deliberately trapped,
> > and I can't see the mages of Earthdawn trying to _trap_ a Horror.
>
> I didn't think of it as a spirit at all.. It's just a very baaaaaad magical
> item to play with. I think someone was just relating it to the Horrors
> rather than saying it WAS one, but since I don't play Earthdawn I can't be
> sure.

The thing could very well be a horror (as a matter of fact there is
a horror trap in one of the ED novels), or it could simply be a gate to
the metaplane of the horrors. Anyway its a really cool object and I enjoyed
the run very much, even though my co-players my have a different opinion
on that :)

--
GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++$S++L++$>++++ L++>+++ E--- N+ h*(+)
W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) f+ r- n!(-) y?

Moderator of alt.c00ld00z (coolness in general)

From:	Andrew <wadycki@********.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Tue, 11 Jul 1995 13:13:59 -0500

Message no. 25 On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, Gurth wrote:

> >Wraiths and Invae are both types of Horrors.
>
> Thanks for playing, here's a trash can for you to take home.

True, the Invae are not true Horrors, they are considered them a little
more in Earthdawn. My fault to connect them.

> Invae (insect spirits) are not Horrors. In fact the Horrors will chew them
> up and spit them out when they come. Invae were there for hundreds of years
> before the Scourge in Earthdawn, and managed to survive it as well, but
> they're not Horrors.
> As for wraiths, -H- says they're "the future if we don't stem the tide
now,"
> which implies they are indeed Horrors, or at the very least Horror-contructs.

Agreed, my whole point of asking, was that I have a campaign where the
players are being screwed around with by a horror. The horror was
summoned, that is why he could cross the barrier. The horror is also
drawing power off of alot of different people, manipulateing all over the
place. I think this pretty much fits with what has been decided as
possible. My question was had anyone come up with some stats on more
powerful horrors. I don't have my copy of HB with me down at school so I
didn't have that to look at.

-Andrew

From:	Andrew <wadycki@********.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Tue, 11 Jul 1995 13:16:57 -0500

Message no. 26 On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> The thing could very well be a horror (as a matter of fact there is
> a horror trap in one of the ED novels), or it could simply be a gate to
> the metaplane of the horrors. Anyway its a really cool object and I enjoyed
> the run very much, even though my co-players my have a different opinion
> on that :)

I saw it as a gated object which would allow the Enemy to corrupt through
it. That seemed to make the most sense.

-Andrew

From:	P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Wed, 12 Jul 1995 01:56:23 BST

Message no. 27 Lindblom Fredrik, Training (What in chummer?) :-

> > Check out the new book by Nigel Findley, finished right before he died.
>
> Is he dead? When? How? Why?

Yes he did die earlier this year, from a heart-attack, and no, I
personally never got to here why he died so young (35-ish)...

the book referred to, House of The Sun, is very good... there are a lot
of particularly good little jokes put in, and I very much enjoyed it...

but I gotta point out that it wasn't totally finished... according to the
blurb at the front - which goes by way of a Euology from one of hos co-workers
at Adventures Unlimited (very good that BTW) - it sasy that he was in the
middle of proofing it when he died, and there are bits I think he would have
'tweaked', had he got the chance... they;ve left it as it, and printed it
straight IMHO... eg a few archiach "fuck's" are still lruking towards the
back... I can just see him writing fuck and then using a search-and-replace
to change them over to frag... sorta makes the actual writing process more
comfortable and smooth-flowing...

Phil (Renegade)

From:	David Herr <dherr@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Tue, 11 Jul 1995 21:29:19 EDT

Message no. 28 http://rhic2.physics.wayne.edu/sheen/home.html
> I once again cant remember were I got this from, but I remember reading
>somewhere that aztecnology mages keep themselves busy by trying to >summon old
aztec gods, and guess who these gods are ?

Yeah! The Passions! Remember people in the times of ED rated the horrors and
reviered the passions. They wouldn't name the Horrors to be Gods but it says in one of
the ED books that the Passions are infact GODS!

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Wed, 12 Jul 1995 12:27:55 +0200

Message no. 29 [item from Bottled Demon]
>I think someone was just relating it to the Horrors
>rather than saying it WAS one, but since I don't play Earthdawn I can't be
>sure.

Actually I don't think the item _can_ be linked to the Horrors, unless you
think FASA was playing around with the idea of Earthdawn and Horrors and
linking it all to Shadowrun back in, oh, 1990 I believe, already? (ED came
out in 1993, BTW, and BD is at least 3 years older.)
Of course it's nice to make the connection afterwar, or at least hint at one :)

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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)

From:	Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Wed, 12 Jul 1995 21:29:39 +0930

Message no. 30 S.F. Eley wrote:
>
> > I could go and check, but I thought Bottled Demon was more of a spirit (or
> > maybe an avatar) than a Horror... after all, it was deliberately trapped,
> > and I can't see the mages of Earthdawn trying to _trap_ a Horror.
>
> I didn't think of it as a spirit at all.. It's just a very baaaaaad magical
> item to play with. I think someone was just relating it to the Horrors
> rather than saying it WAS one, but since I don't play Earthdawn I can't be
> sure.

Hmm... The trouble I have is that I connect it with one of those two bad
magical beings that got out when Sam Verner pulled out the giant opal, in
"Know Your Own Truth". Certainly, it hints it to that. And a fragging TOTEM
was entombed in there... Basically, I can't see the mages of the Fourth
World wanting to keep something as bad as a Horror in the world. Anything
they entombed like that must be too powerful to kill or expel, but powerful
enough to trap. Do Horrors really fall into that category?

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***

From:	Roger An <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject:	Horrors
Date:	Thu, 9 Jan 1997 08:42:17 -0500

Message no. 31 Just wonderin, what's the thing about horrors in Shadowrun? I mean how do
horrors from Earthdawn cross over?
Dust

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Thu, 9 Jan 1997 15:57:28 +0000

Message no. 32 |
|Just wonderin, what's the thing about horrors in Shadowrun? I mean how do
|horrors from Earthdawn cross over?

Earthdawn is the 4th world....
In Earthdawn, the horrors came when the Mana-flow was reaching it's peak.

Now, when those darn injuns danced the Great Ghost Dance, they created a
partial bridge in astral space....

And the horrors are building from the other side in an attempt to get here.

They are BOUND to go for the path of least resistance, and places of
extra-high magic ARE there places.

Crater lake being another one....

(I take it you've not played or read though Harlies Back yet?)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:56:01 -0500

Message no. 33 Roger An asked,
>Just wonderin, what's the thing about horrors in Shadowrun? I mean how do
>horrors from Earthdawn cross over?
> Dust
>
In the novel Worlds without End One of the major named Horrors made it
through one of those bridges. There was the most direct crossover. The
there was an example of Bugz invading a cult then and also of something
very similiar to a wraith being mentioned as forewarnings to the Horror
invasion. Shadowrun has those warnings now way too early in the current
magic cycle but then again there has been those pesky mana spikes
happening again.
Here's a follow up question. How much longer before we see the
return of the Obsidimen, assuming they weren't all wiped out or that they
haven't been mistaken for earth spirits?

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal
names more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves,
they answered to another name, because if another discovered their real
name, it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:56:16 -0500

Message no. 34 At 08:42 AM 1/9/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Just wonderin, what's the thing about horrors in Shadowrun? I mean how do
>horrors from Earthdawn cross over?
> Dust
>
You're new here, aren't ya...??:):)

Ok, quickie horror explanation...

First off, Earthdawn takes place on Earth umpteen thousand years ago,
during the 4th (3rd?) age. Now we're in the 6th age, for SR. Magic is not
as strong as it was in Earthdawn. The Horrors need a very high magic level
and magic source to re-enter the world from whatever place they dwell (my
bets still mars:)).

Now, apparently certain high powered rituals (ie, the Ghost Dance, Blood
Magic, etc.) also might be able to draw the horrors to our world.

Ok, that's the basics... any questions?

Schools Out for today...:0

Bull
--
<.sig seperator now included at no extra cost, because I can>
=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****,com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"What the heck happened to my superheroes???"
-Me, after seeing the new Marvel Comics revamps of
Capt. America and the Hulk.

From:	"Mark R. Terilli" <mrtgroo@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Thu, 9 Jan 1997 17:13:02 -0500

Message no. 35 I believe it was stated that the horrors live in astral space.
mark terilli

At 04:56 PM 1/9/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 08:42 AM 1/9/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>Just wonderin, what's the thing about horrors in Shadowrun? I mean how do
>>horrors from Earthdawn cross over?
>> Dust
>>
>You're new here, aren't ya...??:):)
>
>Ok, quickie horror explanation...
>
>First off, Earthdawn takes place on Earth umpteen thousand years ago,
>during the 4th (3rd?) age. Now we're in the 6th age, for SR. Magic is not
>as strong as it was in Earthdawn. The Horrors need a very high magic level
>and magic source to re-enter the world from whatever place they dwell (my
>bets still mars:)).
>
>Now, apparently certain high powered rituals (ie, the Ghost Dance, Blood
>Magic, etc.) also might be able to draw the horrors to our world.
>
>Ok, that's the basics... any questions?
>
>Schools Out for today...:0
>
>Bull
>--
><.sig seperator now included at no extra cost, because I can>
> =======================================================
> = Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
> = chaos@*****,com =
> = "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
> =======================================================
>
> "What the heck happened to my superheroes???"
> -Me, after seeing the new Marvel Comics revamps of
> Capt. America and the Hulk.
>
>

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Thu, 9 Jan 1997 22:26:49 EST

Message no. 36 On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 16:56:16 -0500 Bull <chaos@*****.COM> writes:
>At 08:42 AM 1/9/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>Just wonderin, what's the thing about horrors in Shadowrun? I mean
>how do
>>horrors from Earthdawn cross over?
>> Dust
>>
>You're new here, aren't ya...??:):)
>
>Ok, quickie horror explanation...
>
>First off, Earthdawn takes place on Earth umpteen thousand years ago,
>during the 4th (3rd?) age. Now we're in the 6th age, for SR. Magic
>is not
>as strong as it was in Earthdawn. The Horrors need a very high magic

Magic's not as strong as it was in the 4th world-yet:)

>level
>and magic source to re-enter the world from whatever place they dwell
>(my
>bets still mars:)).

You, my tusk-endowed friend, are sick, sick, sick! Mars, the Church of
Elvis? you need help:):):)

>Now, apparently certain high powered rituals (ie, the Ghost Dance,
>Blood
>Magic, etc.) also might be able to draw the horrors to our world.

And we all know who's practicing Blood Magic-the Azzies!

>Ok, that's the basics... any questions?

Okay...since you asked:
1)I've asked before, but how do you convert ED stats to SR?
2)Are there rules for Aztlan Blood Magic, and where are they?

>Schools Out for today...:0
>
>Bull

Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage

From:	Faux Pas <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Thu, 9 Jan 1997 22:23:48 -0600

Message no. 37 At 10:26 PM 1/9/97 EST, you wrote:
>1)I've asked before, but how do you convert ED stats to SR?

Not sure on this one, but I'd bet that there's something in Paolo's
archives that'll tell you.

>2)Are there rules for Aztlan Blood Magic, and where are they?

Aztlan sourcebook, GM's Info section with some playing info and ideas in
the Religion and Magic section of that sourcebook.

-Thomas Deeny
the Cartoonist at Large's web site is telltale.hart.org

"Ninjas aren't dangerous. They're more afraid of you than you are of them."
-the Tick, "Night of a Million Zillion Ninja"

From:	Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Fri, 10 Jan 1997 01:49:29 -0500

Message no. 38 At 05:13 PM 1/9/97 -0500, you wrote:
>I believe it was stated that the horrors live in astral space.
>mark terilli
>
Yeah, but the question is where?

WHere exactly is astral space?

Is it just around earth? Basically an astral version of what's around us
in teh real world? If so, then the Horrors don't live there, otherwise
they'd already be here...

I get the feeling tehy're actually on another metaplane.

Anyways, i can see FASA getting real wierd with the whole Horror thing...

And I'm connecting the whole thing with the pictures in Portfolio of a
Dragon. I think there's a colony of Elves, some drgons, and the horrors
living on Mars...

But tha6t's just what I heard from Mr. Stone...:):)

Bull
--
<.sig seperator now included at no extra cost, because I can>
=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****,com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"What the heck happened to my superheroes???"
-Me, after seeing the new Marvel Comics revamps of
Capt. America and the Hulk.

From:	Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Fri, 10 Jan 1997 02:10:30 -0500

Message no. 39 At 10:26 PM 1/9/97 EST, you wrote:

>>First off, Earthdawn takes place on Earth umpteen thousand years ago,
>>during the 4th (3rd?) age. Now we're in the 6th age, for SR. Magic
>>is not
>>as strong as it was in Earthdawn. The Horrors need a very high magic
>
>Magic's not as strong as it was in the 4th world-yet:)
>
Exactly...:)

>>level
>>and magic source to re-enter the world from whatever place they dwell
>>(my
>>bets still mars:)).
>
>You, my tusk-endowed friend, are sick, sick, sick! Mars, the Church of
>Elvis? you need help:):):)
>
<Elvis Voice On>

Thank You, thank you very much>

<Elvis Voice Off>

>
>>Now, apparently certain high powered rituals (ie, the Ghost Dance,
>>Blood
>>Magic, etc.) also might be able to draw the horrors to our world.
>
>And we all know who's practicing Blood Magic-the Azzies!
>
yuppers...:)

>>Ok, that's the basics... any questions?
>
>Okay...since you asked:
>1)I've asked before, but how do you convert ED stats to SR?
>
Got me... I haven't played ED... fluipped thu the book a few times, cool
background, but IMO the rules sucked... (Sorry FASAMike, but it's true...:))

However, i do believe there are conversion rules (for some stuff) out there...

>2)Are there rules for Aztlan Blood Magic, and where are they?
>
They sort of outline them in the Atzlan Book, but so far they've avoided
printing too much information...

That's one thing about FASA and SR that I both love and hate, the fact that
they have an on going game world, and that some things remain a secret
until it's public knowledge (or whatever) in the game. Great for game
background and helps keep the players in the dark (They can't just buy a
sourcebook and find out), but it's a pain for the GM who wants to use this
info, but doen't want to have to change anything when the rules finally do
come out...:))

Bull
--
<.sig seperator now included at no extra cost, because I can>
=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****,com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"What the heck happened to my superheroes???"
-Me, after seeing the new Marvel Comics revamps of
Capt. America and the Hulk.

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Fri, 10 Jan 1997 11:58:53 +0100

Message no. 40 Roger An said on 8:42/ 9 Jan 97...

> Just wonderin, what's the thing about horrors in Shadowrun? I mean how do
> horrors from Earthdawn cross over?

For as complete an answer as you're going to get about that, read
Harlequin's Back (if you're a GM), and the novels Worlds Without End and
House Of The Sun. The short answer is that one or two have come through to
the physical plane in the 2050s, but a major invasion is still a LONG way
in the future (and rumors of a FASA game set somewhere in the 35th century
or so with Horrors all over the place were just that, AFAIK).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Why are these dudes all dressed up in white?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Fri, 10 Jan 1997 11:58:53 +0100

Message no. 41 Mark R. Terilli said on 17:13/ 9 Jan 97...

> I believe it was stated that the horrors live in astral space.
> mark terilli

You need to read ED's Horrors book, and then hope your SR GM never does :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Why are these dudes all dressed up in white?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:08:56 EST

Message no. 42 On Thu, 9 Jan 1997 22:23:48 -0600 Faux Pas <thomas@*******.COM> writes:
>At 10:26 PM 1/9/97 EST, you wrote:
>>1)I've asked before, but how do you convert ED stats to SR?
>
>Not sure on this one, but I'd bet that there's something in Paolo's
>archives that'll tell you.

Nope. I could only wish. I've heard that you subtract 2 from the ED step
and that results in the SR attribute/skill/etc...but was mostly checking,
I can't remember for sure...

>>2)Are there rules for Aztlan Blood Magic, and where are they?
>
>Aztlan sourcebook, GM's Info section with some playing info and ideas
>in
>the Religion and Magic section of that sourcebook.

Thanks. Now I know which book to buy....

Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage

From:	Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:32:27 GMT

Message no. 43 John E Pederson writes
>
> Okay...since you asked:
> 1)I've asked before, but how do you convert ED stats to SR?
basic take ED step, deduct 2, gives SR attibute, the non sentient
critters get int a bit high but its pretty good for PC's though
trolls particularly have relatively much less stat variation in Ed as
opposed to SR.

i have converted some pretty nasty stuff, full auto APDS HMG minigun!
and it got back up! then some so and so shot the poor horror with an
ATGM :(, oh out of karma pool.. oops......

> 2)Are there rules for Aztlan Blood Magic, and where are they?
>
some in the Atzlan sourcebook.
There LOTS more in ED, esp the magic book, but i've not read that.
Note much of the ED stuff would probably not work at SR magic levels,
and would ba a 'GM convert' anyway.

Mark

From:	Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:41:05 GMT

Message no. 44 Gurth writes

> Mark R. Terilli said on 17:13/ 9 Jan 97...
>
> > I believe it was stated that the horrors live in astral space.
> > mark terilli
>
> You need to read ED's Horrors book, and then hope your SR GM never does :)
>
Can you just answer the question? or sooner or later i am going to
have to have a copy of that for about 2% of its contents, same with
too many of the ED books, which really is not worth it. i suppose one
day i will read them anyway but i really don't see me using enough in
SR and i don't look like running Ed, there is already a local GM who
has all the books so its more fun if the rest don't read everthing,
and its a bit of a waste to buy them if you don't (about the only
reason i haven't so far in case i play some more ED)

Mark

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:43:03 +0000

Message no. 45 |Okay...since you asked:
|1)I've asked before, but how do you convert ED stats to SR?

I think general Step to stat/skill coversion works, with maybe a small +/-
modifier.....

|2)Are there rules for Aztlan Blood Magic, and where are they?

In the Azzy sourcebook of course....

Where else?
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Fri, 10 Jan 1997 17:01:37 +0000

Message no. 46 |>1)I've asked before, but how do you convert ED stats to SR?
|>
|Got me... I haven't played ED... fluipped thu the book a few times, cool
|background, but IMO the rules sucked... (Sorry FASAMike, but it's true...:))

NOT!!!!! I like the Earhdawn rules.....
Steps are NICE.... (and very versatile)...

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:32:18 -0500

Message no. 47 At 05:01 PM 1/10/97 +0000, you wrote:
>|>1)I've asked before, but how do you convert ED stats to SR?
>|>
>|Got me... I haven't played ED... fluipped thu the book a few times, cool
>|background, but IMO the rules sucked... (Sorry FASAMike, but it's true...:))
>
>NOT!!!!! I like the Earhdawn rules.....
>Steps are NICE.... (and very versatile)...
>
<Nasty evil grin>

Of course, you also like Rifts, Andrew...:)

Seriously, I don't like too many numbers in my game...

If it wasn't for the fact that all the dice rolls are the same in SR, it
would have too many numbers too...

Plus, No one's wanted to run the game...

Bull
--
<.sig seperator now included at no extra cost, because I can>
=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****,com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"What the heck happened to my superheroes???"
-Me, after seeing the new Marvel Comics revamps of
Capt. America and the Hulk.

From:	MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:13:43 -0500

Message no. 48 Spike wrote,
>NOT!!!!! I like the Earhdawn rules.....
>Steps are NICE.... (and very versatile)...
Yeah, but the "check the table everytime to see which combos of dice
you roll" bugs me. I guess that's not bad for my major gripe, but damn
it's inconvient.

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal
names more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves,
they answered to another name, because if another discovered their real
name, it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:47:52 -0800

Message no. 49 On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, MC23 wrote:

> Spike wrote,
> >NOT!!!!! I like the Earhdawn rules.....
> >Steps are NICE.... (and very versatile)...
> Yeah, but the "check the table everytime to see which combos of dice
> you roll" bugs me. I guess that's not bad for my major gripe, but damn
> it's inconvient.
>
> I am MC23

That's part of the reason I just printed a copy of the table on each
character sheet...

I've never actually played ED (just made a few characters and waited for
the GM to follow through on his promise to start a campaign...), but the
system also didn't seem to strike me as "really good". Can't put my
finger on it exactly, but it just seemed kinda "simple"..but maybe I need
some more exposure to the system..

~Tim

From:	MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Horrors
Date:	Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:57:01 -0500

Message no. 50 Tim Cooper wrote,
>MC23 wrote,
>> Yeah, but the "check the table everytime to see which combos of dice
>> you roll" bugs me. I guess that's not bad for my major gripe, but damn
>> it's inconvient.
>
>That's part of the reason I just printed a copy of the table on each
>character sheet...
>
>I've never actually played ED (just made a few characters and waited for
>the GM to follow through on his promise to start a campaign...), but the
>system also didn't seem to strike me as "really good". Can't put my
>finger on it exactly, but it just seemed kinda "simple"..but maybe I need
>some more exposure to the system..

I remember the old joke formula about gamer satifaction with games.
Part of that formula included number of dice and the number of different
types of dice invovled. I keep getting this feeling FASA was reading that
formula when they decided on the dice system.

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal
names more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves,
they answered to another name, because if another discovered their real
name, it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

Message no. 51 MC23 said on 14:13/10 Jan 97...

> Yeah, but the "check the table everytime to see which combos of dice
> you roll" bugs me. I guess that's not bad for my major gripe, but damn
> it's inconvient.

In my experience that's just the first couple of times. After that, it's
"With my sword is 2D6, right?" and before long, you'll have the common
combinations memorized. I haven't played ED in almost a year, so most of
them have slipped my mind already, but that's the way it went at the
time.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Any two can play.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 52 |<Nasty evil grin>
|
|Of course, you also like Rifts, Andrew...:)
|
|Seriously, I don't like too many numbers in my game...
|
|If it wasn't for the fact that all the dice rolls are the same in SR, it
|would have too many numbers too...
|
|Plus, No one's wanted to run the game...

Well.... They don't like you in the Earthdawn list after you Gygax/TSR
conspiracy post.....

(It made it complete to Earthdawn, and they don't like you.....)

:p

And no, it was not me......
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 53 At 11:48 AM 1/11/97 +0000, you wrote:

>Well.... They don't like you in the Earthdawn list after you Gygax/TSR
>conspiracy post.....
>
>(It made it complete to Earthdawn, and they don't like you.....)
>
>:p
>
>And no, it was not me......
>
Someone posted that to the Earthdawn list???

Oh, that's funny...

At least I lmow SOMEONE is having fun with it...

Ok, so who's responsible??

And what are they saying?

Bull
--
<.sig seperator now included at no extra cost, because I can>
=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****,com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"What the heck happened to my superheroes???"
-Me, after seeing the new Marvel Comics revamps of
Capt. America and the Hulk.

Message no. 54 In a message dated 1/10/97 06:58:15 AM, chaos@*****.COM (Bull) wrote:

>>
>Got me... I haven't played ED... fluipped thu the book a few times, cool
>background, but IMO the rules sucked... (Sorry FASAMike, but it's true...:))

No offense taken...You don't mind if I disagree do you.

>However, i do believe there are conversion rules (for some stuff) out
there...

Not by FASA but many people have done some.

>>2)Are there rules for Aztlan Blood Magic, and where are they?
>>
>They sort of outline them in the Atzlan Book, but so far they've avoided
>printing too much information...
>
>That's one thing about FASA and SR that I both love and hate, the fact that
>they have an on going game world, and that some things remain a secret
>until it's public knowledge (or whatever) in the game. Great for game
>background and helps keep the players in the dark (They can't just buy a
>sourcebook and find out), but it's a pain for the GM who wants to use this
>info, but doen't want to have to change anything when the rules finally do
>come out...:))

Thanks, we consider ourselves a company the builds worlds and then set games
in those worlds. I'm really gald that you appreciate that philosophy.

Have Fun!
Play Games!
I Like Earthdawn and I'm Proud of It!

Mike Mulvihill
Shadowrun Line Developer
FASA
www.fasa.com

Message no. 55 At 05:27 PM 1/14/97 -0500, FASAMike wrote:

>>Got me... I haven't played ED... fluipped thu the book a few times, cool
>>background, but IMO the rules sucked... (Sorry FASAMike, but it's true...:))
>
>No offense taken...You don't mind if I disagree do you.
>
Not at all... You've been here long enough now to know that I get
disagreed with all the time...:) makes life interesting...:):):)

>Thanks, we consider ourselves a company the builds worlds and then set games
>in those worlds. I'm really gald that you appreciate that philosophy.
>
It's one of the things that drew me to the game... Good job...:)

Bull
--
Bull-the-I'm-now-cuddley-because-Dvixen-said-so-ork-decker-turned-GM

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****,com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"I dare you to use that .sig file for a week!"
-Dvixen, after seeing my new .sig

Message no. 56 ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ----------------
Date: 1/27/97 8:13 PM
Received: 1/27/97 8:32 PM
From: David Buehrer, dbuehrer@****.ORG
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion, SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
To: Shadowrun Discussion, SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET

A friend of mine sent me something... and after a little editing :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Editor-

I am 8 years old. Some of my little friends say there are no Horrors.
Papa says, "If you see it on Alt.Horrors, it's so." Please tell me the
truth, are there Horrors who will come to earth from some distant
dimension to clear the Earth of all living things?

-----Virgina Marsh

Virgina, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the
fever of enlightenment given to them by a so-called "enlightened" age.
They do not believe in anything unless it carries the weight of
scientific authority. They think that nothing can be which is not
comprehensible by their little minds. Reality is that which can be
cataloged and measured, to be spooned out in rational doses to the
common people. All minds, Virgina, whether they be adult's or
children's, are little. In this vast chaos we laughingly call the
universe, man is a mere insect, a bug, whose intellect has as much
chance of grasping the whole truth, as an ant has of understanding
non-Euclidian geometry.

Yes, Virgina, there are Horrors. They exists as certainly as the cold
unfeelingness of the cosmos exist, and you know that this
meaninglessness abounds and gives to your life its highest absurdity.
Alas! how comfortable would be the world if there were no Horrors! It
would be as comforting as if a Santa Claus truly did care and reward
children for doing good. There would be childlike faith then, a world
of sweet believable poetry and romance to make existence idyllic and
appealing. The external light with which childhood fills the world
would never end.

Not believe in Horrors?! You might as well not believe in immortal
elves. You might get your papa's science books and Skeptical Inquirers
to see if the Horrors are mentioned in any historical contexts, but
even if you did not find either mentioned in your 'holy' books, what
would that prove? Nobody sees or knows of Horrors, but that is no sign
that there are no Horrors. The most real things in the world are those
that we can not know through the senses. Can the headache of your
friend be felt by you? No, but his pain affects your life regardless.
Do you feel the angst of living a life you never wanted through any of
your five senses? No, yet the despair remains. Yet if such realities
are known but are never seen, then why should other's ignorance of the
unseen lead us to share in their blindness. By what right have they
earned your obedience? Nobody can conceive of the inconceivable,
including your leaders of thought.

You tear apart the rattle of a baby to see what lies inside to make
such noise, but the tiny balls there can not explain or illustrate the
fear of a hostile world, that makes that baby clutch and shake that
rattle so. Only reaching for insanity can one push aside the curtain
of our hopes and view with stark madness the emptiness that lies
beyond. Is that reality? Is that the truth? To give an answer is to
replace the curtain with but one more. And it is this, that makes the
Horrors as true and as real as any veil we place on the chaos beyond.
If one must create a meaning, why not the Horrors. At least the choice
is free.

The Horrors live and live forever. Two thousand years from now,
Virgina, nay 10 times 2,000 years from now, they will continue to await
the time when the stars are right again. For with those which eternal
lie, with strange eons even death may die.

-----H. (Guest Editor for the Seattle Screamer)

--
-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

----------------- End Forwarded Message -----------------

Message no. 57 I kep seeing "The Horrors" mentioned. Can someone brief me
in, please?

Kevin Dole /:|
kdole@***.vsc.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/4151/welcome.html
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death, and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."

Message no. 58 In a message dated 3/21/99 12:17:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kdole@***.vsc.edu writes:

> I kep seeing "The Horrors" mentioned. Can someone brief me
> in, please?
Horrors are form another game by FASA named Earthdawn (though it is now a
discontinued game) Horrors are spirits that feed on pain and suffering. They
can only come to this "plane" when the mana/magic level reaches a certain
level of magic. In SR so far, the only direct mentions I have seen, they have
called them the Enemy.

Message no. 59 On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:15:13 EST5EDT "Kevin Dole" <kdole@***.vsc.edu>
writes:
> I kep seeing "The Horrors" mentioned. Can someone brief me
>in, please?

The Horrors are extraplanar entities in ED that feed on suffering they
cause. They are the big bad guys of ED and depending on who you talk to
they may or may not be "The Enemy" in SR. If you subscribe to the belief
that Horrors will *eventually* come into SR and is The Enemy, then the
Bug Spirits and Wraiths are precursors (Mini-horrors?) to the Horrors.

Horrors is also a book in ED about Horrors.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 60 At 03:47 PM 3/21/99 -0600, D. Ghost wrote:
>
>The Horrors are extraplanar entities in ED that feed on suffering they
>cause. They are the big bad guys of ED and depending on who you talk to
>they may or may not be "The Enemy" in SR. If you subscribe to the belief
>that Horrors will *eventually* come into SR and is The Enemy, then the
>Bug Spirits and Wraiths are precursors (Mini-horrors?) to the Horrors.
>^^^^^^^^^^^

Not neccessarily. I remember reading in one novel, can't remember the
name, but I'm rather sure N. Findley (R.I.P.) was the author, that a large
consortium of bug spirits cooperated with the main character to keep the
horrors from making some further advances onto this plane. The novel was
set in Hawai'i, and Harlequin was also featured in it. Of course, it's now
going to bother me that I can't remember the name of that novel!

And, yes, I know that novels aren't canon, but anything by Findley, I
pretty much trust.

Dave

>
>--
>D. Ghost
>(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
>"You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
>"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
>Edition)
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>
>

Message no. 61 On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:05:37 -0800 Dave Post <caelric@****.com> writes:
>At 03:47 PM 3/21/99 -0600, D. Ghost wrote:
<SNIP>
>>Bug Spirits and Wraiths are precursors (Mini-horrors?) to the Horrors.
>^^^^^^^^^^^

>Not neccessarily. I remember reading in one novel, can't remember the
>name, but I'm rather sure N. Findley (R.I.P.) was the author, that a
large
>consortium of bug spirits cooperated with the main character to keep the
>horrors from making some further advances onto this plane. The novel
was
>set in Hawai'i, and Harlequin was also featured in it. Of course, it's
now
>going to bother me that I can't remember the name of that novel!
>
>And, yes, I know that novels aren't canon, but anything by Findley, I
>pretty much trust.

Well, in ED there are Invae which are probably the same as Bug Spirits (I
don't have the book so I don't know for sure.). Additionally, I'm not
certain that Bug Spirits are servants of the Horrors, just that they are
a sign that Horrors are on their way ...

Lastly, Insect Spirits might wish to delay the arival of Horrors so that
they (the Horrors) won't ruin their fun. :)

By the way, according to the Dragonheart Trilogy, there might be Horrors
in SR already ...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Message no. 62 >At 03:47 PM 3/21/99 -0600, D. Ghost wrote:
>>
>>The Horrors are extraplanar entities in ED that feed on suffering they
>>cause. They are the big bad guys of ED and depending on who you talk to
>>they may or may not be "The Enemy" in SR. If you subscribe to the
belief
>>that Horrors will *eventually* come into SR and is The Enemy, then the
>>Bug Spirits and Wraiths are precursors (Mini-horrors?) to the Horrors.
>>^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Not neccessarily. I remember reading in one novel, can't remember the
>name, but I'm rather sure N. Findley (R.I.P.) was the author, that a large
>consortium of bug spirits cooperated with the main character to keep the
>horrors from making some further advances onto this plane. The novel was
>set in Hawai'i, and Harlequin was also featured in it. Of course, it's now
>going to bother me that I can't remember the name of that novel!
>
>And, yes, I know that novels aren't canon, but anything by Findley, I
>pretty much trust.

House of the Sun.

care,
s.

---------------------------------------------------------
"The conventional army looses if it does not win; the guriella wins if it
does not loose."

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---------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 63 So any ideas on how to add the Horrors to my campaign without just having a
giant run which knocks the Horrors back (ala an on-line novel).

dghost@****.com wrote:

> On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:05:37 -0800 Dave Post <caelric@****.com> writes:
> >At 03:47 PM 3/21/99 -0600, D. Ghost wrote:
> <SNIP>
> >>Bug Spirits and Wraiths are precursors (Mini-horrors?) to the Horrors.
> >^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> >Not neccessarily. I remember reading in one novel, can't remember the
> >name, but I'm rather sure N. Findley (R.I.P.) was the author, that a
> large
> >consortium of bug spirits cooperated with the main character to keep the
> >horrors from making some further advances onto this plane. The novel
> was
> >set in Hawai'i, and Harlequin was also featured in it. Of course, it's
> now
> >going to bother me that I can't remember the name of that novel!
> >
> >And, yes, I know that novels aren't canon, but anything by Findley, I
> >pretty much trust.
>
> Well, in ED there are Invae which are probably the same as Bug Spirits (I
> don't have the book so I don't know for sure.). Additionally, I'm not
> certain that Bug Spirits are servants of the Horrors, just that they are
> a sign that Horrors are on their way ...
>
> Lastly, Insect Spirits might wish to delay the arival of Horrors so that
> they (the Horrors) won't ruin their fun. :)
>
> By the way, according to the Dragonheart Trilogy, there might be Horrors
> in SR already ...
>
> --
> D. Ghost
> (aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
> "You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
> "A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
> Edition)
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Message no. 64 dghost@****.com schrieb:

> Well, in ED there are Invae which are probably the same as Bug Spirits (I
> don't have the book so I don't know for sure.).

They are the same but were never fleshed out.

> Additionally, I'm not certain that Bug Spirits are servants of the Horrors,
> just that they are a sign that Horrors are on their way ...

As I understood the Earthdawn books, Invae were only invented as a side idea
in the Barsaive box with no further ideas. There is only one paragraph on
them about a side long, half of it being a picture. Invae/Bug Spirits started
to become important in SR but were never mentioned again in ED. So I don't
think they are any kind of foreshadowing to the Horrors but that these are
two different storylines.

> Lastly, Insect Spirits might wish to delay the arival of Horrors so that
> they (the Horrors) won't ruin their fun.

I doubt their power to do so in ED but they certainly will in SR as they are
a lot more powerful in here.

> By the way, according to the Dragonheart Trilogy, there might be Horrors in
> SR already ...

Wasn't that the task in Harlequins Back? Destroying the bridge to stop the
Horrors from coming over. BTW, isn't there a rumour of Aztech being run by a
minor Horror, a named one?

Tommy

Message no. 65 > > Additionally, I'm not certain that Bug Spirits are servants of
> the Horrors,
> > just that they are a sign that Horrors are on their way ...
>
> As I understood the Earthdawn books, Invae were only invented as
> a side idea
> in the Barsaive box with no further ideas. There is only one paragraph on
> them about a side long, half of it being a picture. Invae/Bug
> Spirits started
> to become important in SR but were never mentioned again in ED. So I don't
> think they are any kind of foreshadowing to the Horrors but that these are
> two different storylines.

The Invae can appear at a lower level of mana. Their appearance would be a
sign that the Horrors are coming in that it indicates that the mana level
has reached a certain point. In ED, the Invae appeared about 500 years
before the Horrors, and were readily contained by the powers of the time.

In SR, the Bug spirits appeared fairly soon after the Awakening (no dates
are given for certain, but definitely within 50 years). This has been
retroactively explained by pointing out that the mana spikes allowed the
Invae to get across earlier, just as they could potentially allow the
Horrors to get across early.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com

Message no. 66 >Horrors from coming over. BTW, isn't there a rumour of Aztech being run by
a
>minor Horror, a named one?

Having just read Aztlan again, I can field this one from the official side.
Officially there's no information. Aztechnology hasn't even admitted the
existance of blood spirits publicly, nevermind told anyone that their head
is one. On the other hand, Aztechnology is a private corp, so it doesn't
have to legally tell *anyone* who their owners and managers. And they've
decided, since that's the case, they're telling noone. According to the
official stuff, the rumours AND the shadowtalk, nobody has any real idea.
They can't even confirm if a great dragon is on the director's board, or how
many directors there are!

However, to answer your question, as the book put it, there's a common
rumour that a free spirit is part of the board of directors. Shadowtalk
mentions that it might be a blood spirit (horror), and IE/GD people that
talk through the book (Harlequin, Alachia, Dunkelzahn, etc) tentatively
agree that it's possible, but extremely unlikely.

There's also a rumour that an AI is part of the board.

The final thing I'll mention is that there is a rumour that one person/thing
pulls ALL the strings of Aztech. No evidence that I care to repeat here,
though. The shadowtalk mentions that it's a dragon, though later shadowtalk
thinks something really bad has happened to it. The IE/GD group confirm
that it might be a corrupted dragon, and start to worry about the
possibility.

Read: Great dragon under control/possession by a horror. Now THERE's a bad
mix. :)

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts
can be counted" - Albert Einstein
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 67 According to Kevin Dole, at 15:15 on 21 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> I kep seeing "The Horrors" mentioned. Can someone brief me
> in, please?

The Horrors are the main bad guys in Earthdawn, the fantasy RPG FASA
published until the middle of last year -- basically they're _really_
nasty monsters from some metaplane that can only cross into the astral and
physical planes when the mana level is high enough; they're mentioned in
Harlequin's Back under the name "the Enemy."

The word can also refer to the Earthdawn sourcebook titled simply
"Horrors" that describes the 15 most powerful, identified Horrors and some
weaker ones, plus gives rules for Horrors in general.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What in the wide wide world of sports is going on here?!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 68 According to Tommy Lindner, at 3:13 on 22 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> > Additionally, I'm not certain that Bug Spirits are servants of the Horrors,
> > just that they are a sign that Horrors are on their way ...
>
> As I understood the Earthdawn books, Invae were only invented as a side idea
> in the Barsaive box with no further ideas.

Not exactly. They are also mentioned in the ED main rulebook, in the
history of the world chapter. Just one line, but they are there. I guess
the Horrors were a big enough threat that the people of Barsaive didn't
really worry about the invae that much anymore when the Horrors came.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What in the wide wide world of sports is going on here?!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 69 On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 03:13:45 +0100 Tommy Lindner
<tommy.lindner@*******.de> writes:
>dghost@****.com schrieb:
<SNIP>
>> By the way, according to the Dragonheart Trilogy, there might be
Horrors in
>> SR already ...

>Wasn't that the task in Harlequins Back? Destroying the bridge to stop
the
>Horrors from coming over.

As I understand it/IIRC, Harlequin's Back comes before the Dragonheart
Trilogy (ie [No pun intended ;], the Dragonheart Trilogy finished what HB
started.). And Harly DID stop the Horrors from coming over early *en
masse* ... it's in the hero-horror fight scene where, well read the book
(because of spoilers/I don't remember well enough :)

>BTW, isn't there a rumour of Aztech being run by a
>minor Horror, a named one?

In the Aztlan SB ... I thought the implication was that he was a Horror
construct. There was also the rumor that he might be a Free Blood
Spirit. Btw, isn't named minor Horror an oxymoron? :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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Message no. 70 On Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:03:15 +0100 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> writes:
>According to Tommy Lindner, at 3:13 on 22 Mar 99, the word on
>the street was...
<SNIP>
>> As I understood the Earthdawn books, Invae were only invented as a
side idea
>> in the Barsaive box with no further ideas.

>Not exactly. They are also mentioned in the ED main rulebook, in the
>history of the world chapter. Just one line, but they are there. I guess

>the Horrors were a big enough threat that the people of Barsaive didn't
>really worry about the invae that much anymore when the Horrors came.

I think the ED Adventure "Infected" deals with the Invae...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Message no. 71 > Horrors are form another game by FASA named Earthdawn (though it is
now a
> discontinued game) Horrors are spirits that feed on pain and
suffering. They
> can only come to this "plane" when the mana/magic level reaches a
certain
> level of magic. In SR so far, the only direct mentions I have seen,
they have
> called them the Enemy.

In the Dragon Heart trillogy, if I am not mistaken, they are also
referred to as the (please go easy on my spelling of ancient mexican
words) the tzitzimine. I spoke, briefly, with a spanish friend of
mine, who has some interest in the ancient civilizations of the Incas,
Mayans, Aztechans, etc... She said that the tzitzimine were of Mayan
Myth...but couldn't give me much more than that. Somewhere down the
line, I plan on tossing my runners into Aztlan, probably to play
around with Threat's Mr. Darke. Can anyone else fill me in on these
tzitzimine? Any big Mayan trivia buffs out there?

--Fin
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Message no. 72 > Read: Great dragon under control/possession by a horror. Now THERE's a bad
> mix. :)
>
> Slipspeed

That could be Vestrivan

Tommy

Message no. 73 > Btw, isn't named minor Horror an oxymoron? :)

As far as I recall there are types of Horror like Wormskulls which are only a
bunch of evil creatures and there are named Wormskulls making it a much more
powerful and more dangerous being to encounter. (ED is all about naming and
the power of it) For example it is a lot more difficult for a named Horror to
arrive on earth.

Tommy

Message no. 74 > I think the ED Adventure "Infected" deals with the Invae...

It deals with ancient powers surviving from the 2nd world

Message no. 75 In a message dated 3/22/99 3:12:23 AM Pacific Standard Time, gurth@******.nl
writes:

> Not exactly. They are also mentioned in the ED main rulebook, in the
> history of the world chapter. Just one line, but they are there. I guess
> the Horrors were a big enough threat that the people of Barsaive didn't
> really worry about the invae that much anymore when the Horrors came.

I also think that it was because of the more decentralized nature of Barsaive
compared to Shadworuns modern cities. You might notice a few people missing in
a small town than in Seattle. As well, the amount of adepts in ED gave them a
better chance against the Invae. And finally, maybe the Invae evolved and were
better prepared in SR (or since they came early, maybe the world was not as
prepared against them)

Message no. 76 :I think the ED Adventure "Infected" deals with the Invae...
:
:--
:D. Ghost

You'd think so, from the title, but in fact, it does not, in any way.

Mongoose

Message no. 77 If anybody is interested, I have my stats for Horrors accessible now. Anybody
interested in seeing them and helping me improve them, due to my lack of
knowledge about ED. Or check out the Horrors...what the hell thread in the SR
forum of the DRF. That's where most of our work is being posted. I'll try and
put up a final note when we have the final result.

Message no. 78 BrotherJustice50@***.com wrote:
>
> If anybody is interested, I have my stats for Horrors accessible now. Anybody
> interested in seeing them and helping me improve them, due to my lack of
> knowledge about ED. Or check out the Horrors...what the hell thread in the SR
> forum of the DRF. That's where most of our work is being posted. I'll try and
> put up a final note when we have the final result.

uh....horrors shouldnt have stats :^)
what I understand of them is that they are
super-ultra-killer-bring-bring-the-apocalypse style beings, right? if
so, then they should be well nigh invulnerable, save for some ultra
plowerful old world magic ala the ggd.
Like, my players have encountered satan before, and he is in my game a
horror. that tells you how powerfull they are to me :^)
--
Artanis
Lord of Minas Caran
Jolly fellow
OSRian
Swordsman Most Moderate
Keeper of the Ring

Message no. 79 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Lord Squall" <elfman@******.com>

> uh....horrors shouldnt have stats :^)
> what I understand of them is that they are
> super-ultra-killer-bring-bring-the-apocalypse style beings, right? if
> so, then they should be well nigh invulnerable, save for some ultra
> plowerful old world magic ala the ggd.
> Like, my players have encountered satan before, and he is in my game a
> horror. that tells you how powerfull they are to me :^)
> --

If I remember right, (I haven't played ED in awhile) "horror" is kind of a
catchall term ranging from mean little bastards that are all teeth and the
size of a large dog to the uber-powerful-Satan-is-bush-league type that you
were describing. super horrors So, IMO, the that you are thinking about
probably shouldn't have stats, you're right, unless killing them is a main
point of the adventure. In Earthdawn at least, MOST horrors
(population-wise), are little more that more powerful beasties. (Thank
christ...)

Hope that helps.

---Dave ('s not here man)
*chronically addicted to parenthesis*

Message no. 80 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Yiannakos" <Yiannako@*******.edu>

Whoa, cut and paste issues...

Let's try this again.

> So, IMO, the super horrors that you are thinking about
> probably shouldn't have stats, you're right, unless killing them is a main
> point of the adventure. In Earthdawn at least, MOST horrors
> (population-wise), are little more that more powerful beasties. (Thank
> christ...)
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> ---Dave ('s not here man)
> *chronically addicted to parenthesis*

Message no. 81 In a message dated Thu, 4 May 2000 5:02:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Lord Squall
<elfman@******.com> writes:

uh....horrors shouldnt have stats :^)
what I understand of them is that they are
super-ultra-killer-bring-bring-the-apocalypse style beings, right? if
so, then they should be well nigh invulnerable, save for some ultra
plowerful old world magic ala the ggd.>>

Well, there are many different ranges of horrors from the mildly amusing to the downright
scary...

Cash

Message no. 82 > uh....horrors shouldnt have stats :^)
> what I understand of them is that they are
> super-ultra-killer-bring-bring-the-apocalypse style beings, right? if
> so, then they should be well nigh invulnerable, save for some ultra
> plowerful old world magic ala the ggd.
> Like, my players have encountered satan before, and he is in my game a
> horror. that tells you how powerfull they are to me :^)

Actually SR has stats for dragons. If those arent the freaking Gods of
magic, then I dunno ;o)
But to keep the Info usefull, Horrors are indeed some kind of offworld
demons. They can only come to this world, when the Manalevel has reached
significant heights. As you may have read in various novels those Horrors
are seeking our Plane of existence for many gruesome reasons (some of the
more nice only feed on your likely negative feelings when you are forced to
slaughter your comrades). As some have actually breached the barrier that
seperates our world from theres it seems that the Manalevel is at least high
enough for them to manifest here. Of course, Magic is still very young in
the SR universe, but that doesn't mean it is not powerfull. So, if you were
a magic beeing that needs magic to exist, and the magic is not very dense in
the parts that you are, when I guess you would be signifficantly hampered in
your tries to do your worst to mankind in whole.
Well of course there are different powerfull horrors in the world of
Earthdawn, the bigger were actually Dragonhunters.
Besides that, it all depends on your style of game, remember if it has no
stats, it can't be killed. If you go for that option fine. If you need to
have it killed, give it stats.
For the Satan thing, Why not make it a Totem? I would opt for a toxic
approach then, seems more then suitable. Kind of sick Idea, following some
kind of Hellord btw IMO. Cool for the Diablo Campaign thread!

--- You, stay cool! If we all stay cool, nobody needs to be shot in the
head ---

Message no. 83 According to Lord Squall, at 16:02 on 4 May 00, the word on the street
was...

> > If anybody is interested, I have my stats for Horrors accessible now. Anybody
> > interested in seeing them and helping me improve them, due to my lack of
> > knowledge about ED. Or check out the Horrors...what the hell thread in the SR
> > forum of the DRF. That's where most of our work is being posted. I'll try and
> > put up a final note when we have the final result.
>
> uh....horrors shouldnt have stats :^)

Depends on how you want to use them, IMHO.

> what I understand of them is that they are
> super-ultra-killer-bring-bring-the-apocalypse style beings, right? if
> so, then they should be well nigh invulnerable, save for some ultra
> plowerful old world magic ala the ggd.

If you want them to be unique and long-term enemies, then this may be the
best way to go. However, if you want to do Earthdawn in the Sixth World,
Horrors need stats so players can kill them when they come across them.

That doesn't mean they should be pushovers, though if lots of Horrors are
what you want, you'll have both strong and weak ones running around.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
But it's obviously a dream, as I'm waiting for that beam...
--Millencollin, "Vulcan Ears"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 84 Ok. Next few questions about Horrors. First off, I'm gonna try and get the first
installment done tonight. Second, anybody with ED experience give me some more details on
the following. All I really know about them is what's in the Horrors or EDMain sourcebook.

Bloatforms, Slipshades, Hate, Taint, Dread Iota, Despairworms (I think that's what they're
called), Ysgarthe, Nemesis, Druidstadt, and Bone Crown. Also thoughts on what spells in SR
to give to Horrors that can cast spells. Also, a way to convert ED spells to SR stats. A
few thoughts have been started on this in DRF, but I could use some more. Email me if
anyone wants the file and in what format. Word 97 or Text. I can get them out tonight.

Message no. 85 BrotherJustice50@***.com wrote:
>Ok. Next few questions about Horrors. First off, I'm gonna try and get the
>first installment done tonight. Second, anybody with ED experience give me
>some more details on the following. All I really know about them is what's
>in the Horrors or EDMain sourcebook.
>
>Bloatforms, Slipshades, Hate, Taint, Dread Iota, Despairworms (I think
>that's what they're called), Ysgarthe, Nemesis, Druidstadt, and Bone
>Crown. Also thoughts on what spells in SR to give to Horrors that can cast
>spells. Also, a way to convert ED spells to SR stats. A few thoughts have
>been started on this in DRF, but I could use some more. Email me if anyone
>wants the file and in what format. Word 97 or Text. I can get them out tonight.

Here's how I run horrors in my game. Well, actually this is how I plan on
running the horrors when the PCs encounter them in my campaign.

I divide the horrors into two basic groups: greater horrors and lesser horrors.

Greater horrors don't have stats, may only be defeated by special
weapons/rituals and/or performing specific actions (like killing their
summoner). Greater horrors can have any power that I want to have on a
moment's notice. Greater horrors can chain cast any spell, or number of
spells, that I deem necessary, at any damage level, without being affected
by drain. Yes, a greater horror could easily target six runners with one
Force 20 power bolt at deadly damage, but they all have the minor flaw in
that they like to inflict pain and terror and as such would target all six
runners with a Force 6 power bolt at serious damage, a force 4 chaos spell,
and a force 6 mind probe spell, all on the same action (a character can do
this by the rules, but their chance of success is doubtful).

Lesser horrors do have stats and a more or less specific list of
abilities/spells. However, those stats range from the low teens to the low
20s.

I don't plan on bothering with specific types of horrors in my shadowrun
campaign, as the point is to cause terror among the PCs, not give them a
horror zoology lesson :)

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"All things are at all times, in motion. Take the time to watch the dance."
-John Caeser Leafston

Message no. 86 <snip>
> Yes, a greater horror could easily target
> six runners with one
> Force 20 power bolt at deadly damage, but they all
> have the minor flaw in
> that they like to inflict pain and terror and as
> such would target all six
> runners with a Force 6 power bolt at serious damage,
> a force 4 chaos spell,
> and a force 6 mind probe spell, all on the same
> action (a character can do
> this by the rules, but their chance of success is
> doubtful).
<snip>
> -Graht
> http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3

The full message is going into my Sadistic GM Tricks
folder for future use...
MU HA HA HA!!!

====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
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Message no. 87 Raveness Ravensbane wrote:
><snip>
> > Yes, a greater horror could easily target
> > six runners with one
> > Force 20 power bolt at deadly damage, but they all
> > have the minor flaw in
> > that they like to inflict pain and terror and as
> > such would target all six
> > runners with a Force 6 power bolt at serious damage,
> > a force 4 chaos spell,
> > and a force 6 mind probe spell, all on the same
> > action (a character can do
> > this by the rules, but their chance of success is
> > doubtful).
><snip>
> > -Graht
> > http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
>
>The full message is going into my Sadistic GM Tricks
>folder for future use...
>MU HA HA HA!!!

FWIW, this is pretty much the same thing that a Greater Dragon will do in
my campaign if the PCs make the mistake of thinking they can take down a
greater dragon <EGMG>. Then it will sit back and calmly wait for their
reaction. If the PCs persist in attacking the greater dragon it will dig
out its extra large bottle of ketchup and snack on the PCs. If the PCs
choose to leave, the dragon will be more than happy to let them go and
spread of story of what happened to them when they tried to mess with a
greater dragon.

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"What you are doing at the moment must be exactly what
you are doing at the moment--and nothing else."

Message no. 88 ----- Original Message -----
From: <BrotherJustice50@***.com>
Subject: Re: Horrors

<SNIP question about Horror stats>
>
>

Actually, there are some stats for "Horrors" aka "The Enemy" in SR
already.

Pg. 25 Harlequin's back, "Enemy Crawlers"
Pg. 143 Harlequin's Back "Enemy Crawlers"
Pg. 144 Harlequin's Back "Enemy Toads"

They are relatively tough. Not Dragons by any means, but all in all more
than adequate opponents for most groups.

Ahrain

Message no. 89 According to Ahrain, at 13:20 on 6 May 00, the word on the street was...

> Actually, there are some stats for "Horrors" aka "The Enemy" in
SR already.
>
> Pg. 25 Harlequin's back, "Enemy Crawlers"
> Pg. 143 Harlequin's Back "Enemy Crawlers"
> Pg. 144 Harlequin's Back "Enemy Toads"
>
> They are relatively tough. Not Dragons by any means, but all in all more
> than adequate opponents for most groups.

Unless I'm mistaken, those are Horror constructs, not actual Horrors. They
are pretty tough to beat, even for well-armed shadowrunners, though...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
But it's obviously a dream, as I'm waiting for that beam...
--Millencollin, "Vulcan Ears"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 90 Gurth wrote:
>
> Unless I'm mistaken, those are Horror constructs, not actual Horrors. They
> are pretty tough to beat, even for well-armed shadowrunners, though...

Ah, Horrors. I think the "horror threat" was a bit mishandled (if the
Dragon Heart trilogy is anything to go on). Always let the PCs do the
big things, I say. :-)

Anyway, Horrors are easy to stat up - use Earthdawn Step numbers as a
guide, translate critter powers (or make new ones) as appropriate. Note
that even relatively minor Horrors (like wyrmskulls) can serve as a
center of corruption and nastiness and will often be the mastermind, not
the mook.

Horror meetings shouldn't happen often - I think once or twice is
sufficient in Shadowrun - unless the game is about Horrors, which I'm
not sure would be fun. :-)

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya

Message no. 91 From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 19:36:06 +0200

> According to Ahrain, at 13:20 on 6 May 00, the word on the street was...
>
> > Actually, there are some stats for "Horrors" aka "The Enemy"
in SR already.
> >
> > Pg. 25 Harlequin's back, "Enemy Crawlers"
> > Pg. 143 Harlequin's Back "Enemy Crawlers"
> > Pg. 144 Harlequin's Back "Enemy Toads"
> >
> > They are relatively tough. Not Dragons by any means, but all in all more
> > than adequate opponents for most groups.
>
> Unless I'm mistaken, those are Horror constructs, not actual Horrors. They
> are pretty tough to beat, even for well-armed shadowrunners, though...

They also appear in Threats, in the 'Afraid of the Darke' entry. Nasty
critters, especially crawlers. I won't quote stats, I don't want to
spoil HB, but I had PCs who almost went down in HB first encounter. Damn
armor...

Message no. 92 >From: Achille Autran <aautran@*************.fr>
>They also appear in Threats, in the 'Afraid of the Darke' entry.Nasty
>critters, especially crawlers. I won't quote stats, I don't want to
>spoil HB, but I had PCs who almost went down in HB first encounter. Damn
>Damn armor...

I can second that; the ones in the first (fighting) scene of Harlequin's
Back almost wasted my PCs, I had to fudge dice and inveent some excuse why
they lived through it; it was hardly their fault the things roll 13D6 in
combat, move impossibly fast and laugh at shotguns. That's the problem with
published adventures, they mess with people's power levels (yes, I do know I
was warned in H's B.)

Phil
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Message no. 93 From: "Phil Smith" <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>
Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 09:19:10 GMT

> I can second that; the ones in the first (fighting) scene of Harlequin's
> Back almost wasted my PCs, I had to fudge dice and inveent some excuse why
> they lived through it; it was hardly their fault the things roll 13D6 in
> combat, move impossibly fast and laugh at shotguns. That's the problem with
> published adventures, they mess with people's power levels (yes, I do know I
> was warned in H's B.)

In fact, in my game, without the Big Bad Troll with his Bid Bad Sword
they would have ended up as tasty metaplanar meat. Probably the nastiest
fight they ever got into (we stoped the campaign a short time after this
though).

Message no. 94 Gurth wrote:
>According to Ahrain, at 13:20 on 6 May 00, the word on the street was...
>
> > Actually, there are some stats for "Horrors" aka "The Enemy"
in SR already.
> >
> > Pg. 25 Harlequin's back, "Enemy Crawlers"
> > Pg. 143 Harlequin's Back "Enemy Crawlers"
> > Pg. 144 Harlequin's Back "Enemy Toads"
> >
> > They are relatively tough. Not Dragons by any means, but all in all more
> > than adequate opponents for most groups.
>
>Unless I'm mistaken, those are Horror constructs, not actual Horrors. They
>are pretty tough to beat, even for well-armed shadowrunners, though...

What's a horror construct, and how are they created?

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"All things are at all times, in motion. Take the time to watch the dance."
-John Caeser Leafston

Message no. 95 In a message dated Mon, 8 May 2000 10:15:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
dbuehrer@******.carl.org writes:

<< Gurth wrote:
>According to Ahrain, at 13:20 on 6 May 00, the word on the street was...
>
> > Actually, there are some stats for "Horrors" aka "The Enemy"
in SR already.
> >
> > Pg. 25 Harlequin's back, "Enemy Crawlers"
> > Pg. 143 Harlequin's Back "Enemy Crawlers"
> > Pg. 144 Harlequin's Back "Enemy Toads"
> >
> > They are relatively tough. Not Dragons by any means, but all in all more
> > than adequate opponents for most groups.
>
>Unless I'm mistaken, those are Horror constructs, not actual Horrors. They
>are pretty tough to beat, even for well-armed shadowrunners, though...

> What's a horror construct, and how are they created?

Well, I'm not sure how all of them are created, but the various horror constructs I know
of are cadaver men, jehuthra, and changelings. Cadaver men are intelligent undead
(meta)humans that Horrors can animated after they have died. I believe that only victims
killed by the Horrors or that commit suicide to escape a Horror can be raised as cadaver
men. Next, jehuthra. Large spiderlike beings with human heads. How they are created, I
don't know, but they are dangerous buggers. And changelings are warped windlings from ED.
Somewhere along the line, the Horrors manage to warp their physical form and these
nightmarish fairies were born. Most Horror constructs seem to be servants to the Horrors,
created to assist in whatever they need. There are other types of Horror constructs out
there, but I don't have any info about them.

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"All things are at all times, in motion. Take the time to watch the dance."
-John Caeser Leafston

>>

Message no. 96 According to dbuehrer@******.carl.org, at 8:06 on 8 May 00, the word on
the street was...

> >Unless I'm mistaken, those are Horror constructs, not actual Horrors. They
> >are pretty tough to beat, even for well-armed shadowrunners, though...
>
> What's a horror construct, and how are they created?

They're creatures made by the Horrors, usually to serve them in some way
(though that should be interpreted widely -- they're not butlers :)
Examples are cadaver men, ED's equivalent to zombies in other RPGs; the
falsemen of Parlainth, which are basically golems of all sorts of
materials, created to fight each other after the humanoid population of
the city had been killed; and so on.

Individually, most Horror constructs aren't too tough (though things like
stone falsemen are not so easy to stop), most likely not as tough as the
Horrors that created them, but they are often present in large numbers.

How they are created, I don't know. Maybe it's in an ED book, but it's
been some time since I read any or have played the game.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
But it's obviously a dream, as I'm waiting for that beam...
--Millencollin, "Vulcan Ears"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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