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Message no. 1
From: Ed <equine@***********.COM>
Subject: Horses in 2057...
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:29:05 -0600
Me again...about the player who wanted the riding skill...he wants to know
if horses are rare in 2057. I told him I would assume there would be
horses and possibly even horse ranches still but then again they may not be
horses now...they may be some paranormal version of a horse.

He also wants to know if horses can be cyber enhanced? I don't see why not
but then again that might be a little to much.

Ed




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Ed Mayhall "ZERO is my HERO!"
Dallas, Tx
The Hunger Page: http://www.the-hunger.com/index.html
Personal Page: http://www.terravirtua.com/ed/index.html
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Message no. 2
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Horses in 2057...
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 14:00:14 EST
In a message dated 98-11-16 13:55:50 EST, equine@***********.COM writes:

>
> He also wants to know if horses can be cyber enhanced? I don't see why not
> but then again that might be a little to much.
>
>
Yikes..... Cyber legs, maybe, but that would be about it in my book....
Message no. 3
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Horses in 2057...
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 14:19:43 -0500
Quoting Micheal Feeney (Starrngr@***.COM):
> In a message dated 98-11-16 13:55:50 EST, equine@***********.COM writes:
>
> >
> > He also wants to know if horses can be cyber enhanced? I don't see why not
> > but then again that might be a little to much.
> >
> >
> Yikes..... Cyber legs, maybe, but that would be about it in my book....

Oh, go for bioware instead. Synthcardium, muscle augmentation,
maybe enhanced articulation, throw in some bone lacing (to avoid those
pesky broken legs...). Hmm, and add Orthoskin or Dermal Sheathing in
place of barding.

Now, THAT'S a horse.

--Sean
("Why's your horse keep twitching like that?" "Oh, his MBW is on the
fritz.")

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 4
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Horses in 2057...
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 14:19:01 -0500
> He also wants to know if horses can be cyber enhanced? I
don't see why not
> but then again that might be a little to much.
>
>Yikes..... Cyber legs, maybe, but that would be about it in my
>book....
Actually I would think horses would be a bit more common, with
the restoration of the wild lands by the elves and NAN countries.
Assuming the wild horses out west last that long.
I see horse racing still being around, and there are some
parts of the world, where horses will always be better then
alot of vechicles. Cyberware....Honestly I'd say no, not without
severe side effects. IMHO you can cyber sharks, dogs, horses
and just about anything else, but its most likely going to
damage the hell out of their minds. Horses are generally not
agressive in nature (some may argue), so I don't see them
being used as guard animals, and having a crazed horse on
a race track seems counter productive.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 5
From: Justin Elliott <justin.elliott@********.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: Horses in 2057...
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:31:56 +1300
>Me again...about the player who wanted the riding skill...he wants to know
>if horses are rare in 2057. I told him I would assume there would be
>horses and possibly even horse ranches still but then again they may not be
>horses now...they may be some paranormal version of a horse.
>
>He also wants to know if horses can be cyber enhanced? I don't see why not
>but then again that might be a little to much.
>


From memory animals and cyber don't mix. It tends to send them crazy, they
become hard to control etc. While this may be ok for a watch dog or the
like, I don't think it is a desirable trait for a riding animal.

Justin
Message no. 6
From: David Lightfinger <lightfinger@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Horses in 2057...
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:30:44 -0600
Ed wrote:
>
> Me again...about the player who wanted the riding skill...he wants to know
> if horses are rare in 2057. I told him I would assume there would be
> horses and possibly even horse ranches still but then again they may not be
> horses now...they may be some paranormal version of a horse.
>
> He also wants to know if horses can be cyber enhanced? I don't see why not
> but then again that might be a little to much.
>

Going on what has been seen before, cyber enhancement does tend to
derange the poor animal's mind. If you have seen the Chomps 2000 card
from the Shadowrun CCG, you get what I think is equivalent :-)

Mind you, we had a member of our Shadowrun group once propose putting
eye cameras in squirrels, for surveillance purposes, so anything is
possible :-)

On the commonality of horses, and tying two threads together, I would
think they would be very common in the NAN lands, in the non-urban
areas. Plus, Lonestar may use horses for crowd control, like the police
do today, within the cities.

--David
Message no. 7
From: Ed <equine@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Horses in 2057...
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 14:24:03 -0600
At 02:00 PM 11/16/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> He also wants to know if horses can be cyber enhanced? I don't see why not
>> but then again that might be a little to much.
>Yikes..... Cyber legs, maybe, but that would be about it in my book....

Well I have heard of dogs with some kind of wired reflexes so I was
wondering if horses could too. The player was going on about one with
dermal plating or something of the sort.

Ed


- - - - - - - - - - - - Cut Here - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ed Mayhall "ZERO is my HERO!"
Dallas, Tx
The Hunger Page: http://www.the-hunger.com/index.html
Personal Page: http://www.terravirtua.com/ed/index.html
JADG Page: http://www.terravirtua.com/jadg/index.html
Message Boards: http://www.terravirtua.com/sqlboard/
Message no. 8
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Horses in 2057...
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:31:32 -0600
On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:29:05 -0600 Ed <equine@***********.COM> writes:
>Me again...about the player who wanted the riding skill...he wants to
know
>if horses are rare in 2057. I told him I would assume there would be
>horses and possibly even horse ranches still but then again they may not
be
>horses now...they may be some paranormal version of a horse.

Sure, there'd be plenty of horses. If you want to buy one, you'd have to
ask someone more familiar with them, but I'd say around 10k at LEAST for
a basic Horse. Stats for Horses, among other animals, are in the
Critters section of SR2 and probably will be included in the GM Screen
for SR3 as well.

>He also wants to know if horses can be cyber enhanced? I don't see why
not
>but then again that might be a little to much.

As per SR2, they can but it tends to drive them bonkers. However a
cybernetic control device can be implanted (Don't remember the cost, but
I believe the Essence Cost was 1 point). It was described in the section
explaining the stats (specificly in the explanation of Essence.).

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 9
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Horses in 2057...
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 00:59:18 +0000
Ed wrote:
> Well I have heard of dogs with some kind of wired reflexes so I was
> wondering if horses could too. The player was going on about one with
> dermal plating or something of the sort.

As has allready been mentioned, animals do not interact well with
cyber, becoming more aggressive and less controllable. The same
should apply to bioware, or else bioware should be unawailable for
animals. Unlike cyber, genetics are not 'easily' transplantable
between species.

Other than that there's no problems with doing this. I'd probably
not have any customized cyber (alpha/beta) available for animals.

For a horse.. hm... muscle replacement - 3, titanium bone lacing &
boosted reflexes sound any good?

How to handle the control problems...

Treat the horse as a vehicle in regard to handling. Give that a
rating of 4 or so, depending on training, and add body index +
essence lost to the handling number, perhaps?

Regards,
Fade
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 10
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Horses in 2057...
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 20:16:58 -0500
>Me again...about the player who wanted the riding skill...he wants to know
>if horses are rare in 2057. I told him I would assume there would be
>horses and possibly even horse ranches still but then again they may not be
>horses now...they may be some paranormal version of a horse.

There is an article on horses in the NAGEE:

http://bhopal.flashpt.com/internet/nagee.nsf/docs/horses?OpenDocument

Wordman
Message no. 11
From: Anders Swenson <anders@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Horses in 2057...
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 20:19:10 -0800
Micheal Feeney wrote:

> In a message dated 98-11-16 13:55:50 EST, equine@***********.COM writes:
>
> >
> > He also wants to know if horses can be cyber enhanced? I don't see why not
> > but then again that might be a little to much.
> >
> >
> Yikes..... Cyber legs, maybe, but that would be about it in my book....

Well, there's the classic sourcebook remark that cyber-enhancing animals deals a
severe psychological toll to the beast. Might you be looking at finding the most
placid horse in the barn to soup up rather than that skittish Arab? Bottom line,
how much extra wieght can a horse take? Presumably you are either racing the
horse, (I'll just bet that the Jocky Club allows cybered animals, NOT!) or riding
it into combat, where the modern version of barding is needed. You might consider
shopping for possibillities in Rigger II, as much as the shadowtech series of
tomes ... maybe even Car Wars ... --Anders
Message no. 12
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Horses in 2057...
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 01:48:51 EST
In a message dated 11/16/1998 1:56:10 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
equine@***********.COM writes:

>
> Me again...about the player who wanted the riding skill...he wants to know
> if horses are rare in 2057. I told him I would assume there would be
> horses and possibly even horse ranches still but then again they may not be
> horses now...they may be some paranormal version of a horse.

I know there are horses, and there are even a few paranormal horses. The
Pegasus of course, as well as "the Bayard", which is a behemoth of a horse and
the "fastest land animal on earth" (at least according to the PAoE). As for
horse ranches, I don't know. It would be interesting to see if the NAN had
such things, or even anyone else on the planet beyond the French, Arabs
(Turks?) or Monguls (the really big three historic horseriding forces in my
memory).

> He also wants to know if horses can be cyber enhanced? I don't see why not
> but then again that might be a little to much.

In theory, yes they could be. If it were me, I would simply ask "why?" but,
then again, knowing the range of questions some players could ask, I could see
it being a really tricky thing if confronted with such a question or even a
barrage of them.

I would personally want to go for Bioware type augmentations if it were me
wanting to "Supermod" my steed. Not as dangerous in the long run as cyberware
(at least, not that we know of), and is more essence friendly (and, in theory,
as there is no essence loss, there would also be none/fewer of the
insanity/controlling problems that accompany cyberimplants).

-K
Message no. 13
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Horses in 2057...
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 02:13:15 EST
In a message dated 11/16/1998 6:58:23 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
runefo@***.UIO.NO writes:

>
> How to handle the control problems...
>
> Treat the horse as a vehicle in regard to handling. Give that a
> rating of 4 or so, depending on training, and add body index +
> essence lost to the handling number, perhaps?

These are good ideas. After the first flash of "horse comments" that went
dashing around, i finally posted "Equestrian" on the HHH web site, and in
those gave a basic set of rules for "riding target numbers" as well. I admit,
my horseback riding days are more than a decade ago (back when I owned them
even), but I think they are a good start at least. Fade's concept of BI &
Essence Loss making handling modifiers actually seems kind of interesting, but
I still don't think the BI would incur them, at least not as badly.

-K
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Horses in 2057...
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:55:35 +0100
According to Ed, at 11:29 on 16 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> Me again...about the player who wanted the riding skill...he wants to know
> if horses are rare in 2057. I told him I would assume there would be
> horses and possibly even horse ranches still but then again they may not be
> horses now...they may be some paranormal version of a horse.

I don't really see why horses would not be around, unless there was some
kind of VITAS-like epidemic that killed them all off. I could also see
horse ranches or whatever in North America quite easily.

As a matter of fact, the SR1 and SRII animal tables have an entry for
"Horse" (SRII p. 233).

> He also wants to know if horses can be cyber enhanced? I don't see why not
> but then again that might be a little to much.

Check your SRII book on page 220 for some rules to put cyberware into
critters.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
He likes to sleep. Sometimes he has good dreams.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Horses in 2057...
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 21:37:11 +0200
Hi folks,

as you see I'm back alive again... I guess nobody actually missed my
few comments, but...

On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 20:19:10 -0800, Anders Swenson wrote:

>Micheal Feeney wrote:
>
>> In a message dated 98-11-16 13:55:50 EST, equine@***********.COM writes:
>>
>> >
>> > He also wants to know if horses can be cyber enhanced? I don't see why not
>> > but then again that might be a little to much.
>> >
>> >
>> Yikes..... Cyber legs, maybe, but that would be about it in my book....
>
>Well, there's the classic sourcebook remark that cyber-enhancing animals deals a
>severe psychological toll to the beast.

Concerning animals and cyber: I'd simply say that animals have less
than 6 essence to start with, the actual amount depending on how big
and (evolutionally) developed it was.

I think that a rabbit, as it is comparably small and therefore has much
less nervous tissue than a human, will suffer quite a bit from
cyberware implants.

A horse with it's size will not have this problem.

Anyway, both animals will need some time and training to get adjusted
to their new features.

(As you see, I consider the essence loss to be a result of both the
change to the nervous system as well as the resulting change in
personality. Let's not discuss this -- I guess this is simply an
opinion that could be argued easily.)

Now, the more intelligent (Þveloped, in my above term) a living being
is, the less problems it will have adjusting to new features.

I think this is best represented in giving different amounts of essence
to different animals. My examples: rabbit: 1 horse: 5

Just some ideas. Rip them apart :-)

By the way: Elephants and whales probably would have quite high
essence...

Arno
--
Arno
*********************************************************************
Be careful when replying to this mail - check the address !!!
(And send me a note when you notice that
the reply-to-address points to the list!)
*********************************************************************
Message no. 16
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Horses in 2057...
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 00:39:17 +0000
Arno R. Lehman wrote:
> Concerning animals and cyber: I'd simply say that animals have less
> than 6 essence to start with, the actual amount depending on how big
> and (evolutionally) developed it was.
>
> I think that a rabbit, as it is comparably small and therefore has much
> less nervous tissue than a human, will suffer quite a bit from
> cyberware implants.
>
> A horse with it's size will not have this problem.

*snip*

> Just some ideas. Rip them apart :-)
Do I have to? Aww, okay....

The basic premise, that animals has differing amounts of essence due
to size is probably wrong in cause but not effect. If it was so, a
troll would have more essence than a dwarf, for instance.
Additionally, all normal animals in SR2 has 6 essence. Just
paranormals differ.

But you still couldn't stuff 6 essence points of cyber into a rabbit,
because cyber that would cost 1 essence for a human would cost a lot
more essence to the rabbit because of the size difference.
(Relatively the cyber is a LOT larger... an encephalon three times
the size of its brain would cost oodles of essence - or kill it -
most likely.). This difference would be minor once beyond a certain
size, probably. (Explaining why trolls & dwarves use the same
essence.).

Just so you know, your reply - to field is overriding the list.
(Damn, I always wanted to say that, even if it's old news. ;)

Regards,
Fade
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 17
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Horses in 2057...
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 03:46:53 +0200
On Wed, 18 Nov 1998 00:39:17 +0000, Fade wrote:

>> Just some ideas. Rip them apart :-)
>Do I have to? Aww, okay....

I knew you had to... ;-)

>The basic premise, that animals has differing amounts of essence due
>to size is probably wrong in cause but not effect. If it was so, a

Probably, it is wrong, of course.

>troll would have more essence than a dwarf, for instance.

Here, comparing mental attributes as well as size helps: Trolls are big
and have less intelligence, while dwarves are small but have a higher
willpower... that is what I think is a different mental development
which counters the difference in physical size.

>Additionally, all normal animals in SR2 has 6 essence. Just
>paranormals differ.

Right. That's exactly the point that doesnt fit to my idea.

>But you still couldn't stuff 6 essence points of cyber into a rabbit,
>because cyber that would cost 1 essence for a human would cost a lot
>more essence to the rabbit because of the size difference.

That sounds as though you just turend around my idea... saying essence
cost is dependant on the relative sizes of cyber and body... now, a
dwarf would have to pay more essence than the troll for the same
cyberware.

>(Relatively the cyber is a LOT larger... an encephalon three times
>the size of its brain would cost oodles of essence - or kill it -
>most likely.). This difference would be minor once beyond a certain
>size, probably. (Explaining why trolls & dwarves use the same
>essence.).

I guess this "minor difference beyond a certain size" is something one
could add to my idea as well.

Somehow I can't see a big difference between both modes. In either
case, one losees more of the original essence when some big cyberware
is implanted into a small body. I suggested to adjust the essence a
being starts with, you suggest to adjust the essence cost. Not much of
a difference.

The problem is: The rulebooks give static essence of 6 to beings and
fixed essence costs to cyberware. We needed a houserule, and now we've
got two :-(


>Just so you know, your reply - to field is overriding the list.

I wrote:
>Arno
>*********************************************************************
> Be careful when replying to this mail - check the address !!!
> (And send me a note when you notice that
> the reply-to-address points to the list!)
>*********************************************************************
>
Rune wrote:
>(Damn, I always wanted to say that, even if it's old news. ;)

It's really old news.

--
Arno
*********************************************************************
Be careful when replying to this mail - check the address !!!
(And send me a note when you notice that
the reply-to-address points to the list!)
*********************************************************************
Message no. 18
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Horses in 2057...
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 06:02:10 +0000
> >Additionally, all normal animals in SR2 has 6 essence. Just
> >paranormals differ.
>
> Right. That's exactly the point that doesnt fit to my idea.
>
> >But you still couldn't stuff 6 essence points of cyber into a rabbit,
> >because cyber that would cost 1 essence for a human would cost a lot
> >more essence to the rabbit because of the size difference.
>
> That sounds as though you just turend around my idea... saying essence
> cost is dependant on the relative sizes of cyber and body... now, a
> dwarf would have to pay more essence than the troll for the same
> cyberware.
>
>>*snip relative size doesn't matter so much beyond a certain point*

> The problem is: The rulebooks give static essence of 6 to beings and
> fixed essence costs to cyberware. We needed a houserule, and now we've
> got two :-(

The version I mentioned was basically to say the same as you did,
which is a good idea IMO, and make it fit the rules. I don't think,
that trolls and dwarves should have different cyberware limits,
however I think dogs, cats, rabbits etc. should have less max.

*shrug* do with it as you wish. Just a minor detail anyway.

> >(Damn, I always wanted to say that, even if it's old news. ;)
> It's really old news.

I know. I still wanted to say it. So sue me.. ;)

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 19
From: Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Horses in 2057...
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:32:16 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: Arno R. Lehmann <arlehma@***.NET>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 17 November 1998 11:12
Subject: Re: Horses in 2057...



>Concerning animals and cyber: I'd simply say that animals have less
>than 6 essence to start with, the actual amount depending on how big
>and (evolutionally) developed it was.

<snip large and small debate>

>I think this is best represented in giving different amounts of
essence
>to different animals. My examples: rabbit: 1 horse: 5
>
>Just some ideas. Rip them apart :-)
>
>By the way: Elephants and whales probably would have quite high
>essence...


Have to disagree here. If you gave larger animals more essence
they would suffer less proportionally. For example. A Cyberlimb
costs 1 Essence. Now to your 10 Essence Eddie Elephant this is no
biggie.
WRONG! Eddie is going to just as traumatised as a human getting a
metal leg. The leg they stick onto Eddie will be bigger than mine, but
proportional to him.

Hope thats clear. Its early.

BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>
*Executive Engineer* *FrontLine Games*
Yo soy un disco quebrado
Yo tengo chicle en cerebro
sm:)e
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Horses in 2057...
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 11:56:51 +0100
According to Arno R. Lehmann, at 21:37 on 17 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> Concerning animals and cyber: I'd simply say that animals have less
> than 6 essence to start with, the actual amount depending on how big
> and (evolutionally) developed it was.

According to SRII, all normal animals have an Essence of 6.

> I think that a rabbit, as it is comparably small and therefore has much
> less nervous tissue than a human, will suffer quite a bit from
> cyberware implants.

OTOH, most cyberware designed for an animal would be proportionally
smaller than for a human, so the Essence cost can stay the same.

> *********************************************************************
> Be careful when replying to this mail - check the address !!!
> (And send me a note when you notice that
> the reply-to-address points to the list!)

Your reply-to address says "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.net>.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
He likes to sleep. Sometimes he has good dreams.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Horses in 2057...
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 00:33:54 +0200
On Wed, 18 Nov 1998 11:56:51 +0100, Gurth wrote:

>According to SRII, all normal animals have an Essence of 6.

On Wed, 18 Nov 1998 06:02:10 +0000, Fade wrote:

>> >Additionally, all normal animals in SR2 has 6 essence. Just
>> >paranormals differ.
>>
>> Right. That's exactly the point that doesnt fit to my idea.

That's just the point -- THE RULES say that allmost all animals,
perhaps even all living beings, have the same amount of essence to
start with.

That's just what I wanted to change with my idea. The difference to the
rules is therefore a feature, not a bug.

<snip>
>The version I mentioned was basically to say the same as you did,
>which is a good idea IMO, and make it fit the rules. I don't think,
>that trolls and dwarves should have different cyberware limits,
>however I think dogs, cats, rabbits etc. should have less max.

Well, I think I tried to give reasons why dwarves and trolls would have
the same amount of essence. Perhaps we had a small misunderstanding
there.

<snip>
>> >(Damn, I always wanted to say that, even if it's old news. ;)
>> It's really old news.
>
>I know. I still wanted to say it. So sue me.. ;)

I wouldn't... not the one who posted so many long-winded, complicated,
arguable ideas ;-) ... I kept some of them which I liked... I would
like to miss that source of inspiration!


--
Arno
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Further Reading

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Thwap!