Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: [House Rules] SR Combat
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:42:13 -0500
WARNING! The following is in no way related to Shadowrun 3 or anything
official in any way, it's merely some house rules ideas I've been banging
around for an upcoming Shadowrun game. I'm posting them to the list so people
can read them, offer their suggestions and, perhaps, find something useful in
them. These rules are NOT being proposed to FASA (they're far too radical a
change to the existing SR system to be considered for SR3 anyway).

Anyway, take a look, tell me what you think and have fun.

-- Steve

DAMAGE
There are two types of damage: Stun and Physical. Stun damage represents
bruises, fatigue, and other damage that causes no permanent harm. Physical
damage represents actual wounds, broken bones, burns, and so forth. All forms
of damage have a Damage Code, which consists of a Power Level and a Base
Damage Level. The Power Level shows how difficult the damage is to resist,
while the Damage Level determines how much harm the attack does.

When a character is hit with Stun damage, he can roll Body dice to try and
reduce the damage. The represents the character's inherent toughness and
ability to soak up punishment. The target number is the Power of the attack
and every two successes reduces the Damage Level by one. If the Damage Level
is reduced below Light, the character takes no damage ("Was dat supposed ta
hurt?")

Characters hit with Physical damage cannot reduce the damage unless they are
wearing armor (see below). Tough muscles are no match for monoblades or
bullets. An unarmored character who is hit with a Physical damage attack
takes whatever damage is determined from the Attack Test.

Design Note: Halve the Power of all ballistic weapons from SR2 under this
system. The Power of melee attacks and spells does not change. This tends to
put all weapons on pretty much the same scale. One of the problems of SR2
armor and damage as opposed to SR1 is that the Power of ballistic attacks
increased, while the Power of most melee attacks remained pretty much the
same, making firearms slightly more effective and melee combat less
effective. This system seems to even out the disparities, while keeping
firearms fairly lethal because their damage cannot be resisted as easily as a
punch.

ARMOR
Armor provides the wearer with additional ability to resist Stun damage as
well as some ability to resist Physical damage. Armor has two ratings: Impact
and Ballistic. Impact armor protects against melee weapons, throwing weapons,
most forms of Stun damage, and guns firing rubber bullets or fletchette ammo.
Ballistic armor protects against bullets and explosives (mainly the flying
shrapnel). The wearer adds the Impact Armor rating to Body for resisting Stun
damage. The wearer rolls the appropriate armor rating (Impact or Ballistic)
for resisting Physical damage. Hardened armor (like that possessed by some
critters) also acts like hard cover: if the Power of the attack does not
exceed the Armor rating, the attack does no damage.

INJURY MODIFIERS
Being hurt is distracting and slows a character down. Each level of injury
(Light, Moderate, Serious) imposes a +1 penalty to all of a character's
target numbers and a -1 penalty to the character's Initiative rolls. Only the
highest level of injury (Physical or Stun) applies. A character who has a
Light wound and Moderate Stun damage suffers a +2 penalty, not +3.

COMBAT PROCEEDURE

1. Attack Test
Attacker rolls Combat Skill against a target number to hit the target,
modified according to the situation for range, visibility, movement, weapon
accuracy, injury, and so on. The base target number for most attacks is 4. To
attack more than one target, the attacker splits his Combat Skill dice
however desired and makes a separate test for each target.

2. Defense Test
The defender makes a Defense Test, either Dodging (for melee or ranged
attacks) or Parrying (melee attacks only). The base target number for the
Defense Test is 4, modified by injury and other situational modifiers. Spell
Defense can also be used to defend against magical attacks. Only one defense
option can be used against an attack. To defend against multiple attacks in
the same Phase, a defender splits up his defense dice as desired.

A. Dodge
If the defender chooses to Dodge, they roll their Quickness. Successes from
the Dodge Test subtract directly from the Attack Test. If the defender rolls
the same or more successes on his Dodge Test as the Attacker rolled on his
Attack Test, the attack misses.

B. Parry
If the defender chooses to parry, he rolls his appropriate Melee Combat Skill
as if it were a normal Attack Test against the attacker (modified by Reach,
etc.). If the defender scores more successes than the attacker, the attacker
is hit with a normal attack; follow steps 3 and 4 below. Ties result in a
flurry of strikes and counterstrikes to no effect.

C. Spell Defense
Sorcerers have the ability to provide protection against spells to anyone
they can see. The sorcerer rolls Sorcery Skill or Magic Attribute (whichever
is less) against the Force of the spell, subtracting any successes directly
from the caster's successes. To protect against multiple spells in the same
Action, the defender divides up his dice as desired.

3. Calculate Damage
For every two successes scored by the attack, the Damage Level of the attack
is increased by one. When the code reaches Deadly, every two successes after
that add +1 to the attack's Power.

Design Note: This is my solution to the "damage over Deadly" issue in combat.
Instead of counting Deadly +1, +2 and so on, if extra successes increase
Power it will make the Deadly attack that much more difficult to stage down
and more likely to penetrate armor, both of which I think work fairly well.

4. Damage Resistance Test
For Stun attacks, the defender rolls Body dice (plus any Impact Armor worn)
against a target number equal to the Power of the attack. For Physical
damage, the defender rolls Impact or Ballistic Armor dice (as appropriate)
against a target number equal to the Power of the attack. Every two successes
on this test reduce the Damage Code of the attack by one level. If the attack
is reduced below Light damage, it does no damage to the target.

MELEE COMBAT
A character attempting to parry in melee combat may suffer penalties for his
opponent's Reach (like a character with a knife trying to parry someone with
a katana).

RANGED COMBAT
Ranged combat is a bit more complex than melee combat. With ranged combat,
the base target number of the attack is modified by the range from the
attacker to the target and the range of the weapon the attacker is using.
Other modifiers for movement, visibility, cover, and accessories like
smartgun links apply.

Cover
When shooting at a target behind cover, the attacker normally aims at exposed
portions of the target (taking the appropriate cover modifiers). If the
attacker shoots at a target through cover, the attacker takes the +8 Blind
Fire penalty. The kind of cover may also affect damage. There are two
categories of cover: soft and hard.

Soft cover only affects vision, making the target harder to hit, but offering
no physical protection. Brush, paper screens, and tinted glass are examples
of soft cover.

Hard cover conceals the target and offers protection besides. Wood, thin
metal, armored glass, and plastic are all examples of hard cover. Hard cover
has a Barrier Rating, which acts like normal armor for targets behind the
cover. Additionally, if the Barrier Rating of hard cover is greater than the
Power of the attack, the attack cannot penetrate the cover. It is stopped
cold. If an attack has a Power greater than half the Barrier Rating (round
down), it reduces the rating by 1 every time it hits, if the Power of the
attack is greater than the Barrier Rating, it reduces the rating and punches
a hole through the barrier.

Material: Barrier Rating
Wood: 1
Armor Glass: 2
Plywood: 3
Construction Plastic: 4
Impact Plastic: 5
Steel: 6
Composite Ceramics: 7
Concrete: 8

If the barrier is very thin, divide the Barrier Rating in half (round down).
For a very thick or reinforced barrier, double the Barrier Rating. So a
reinforced concrete wall would have a Barrier Rating of 16. Even an
anti-vehicle missile wouldn't penetrate such a barrier, only weaken it.
Double Barrier Rating against Stun damage attacks like punches (it takes a
very strong character to punch through a steel door) and edged weapons.

Autofire
Many weapons are capable of burst or fully-automatic fire. A standard burst
is three bullets, while full-auto weapons fire as many shots as the weapon's
rate of fire (ROF). The main effect of autofire is to make it harder for the
target to dodge and more likely for the attacker to hit. For each round fired
beyond the first, the defender's Dodge Test target number increases by +1 and
the attacker rolls one additional die on his Attack Test.

Example: Blade has Firearms 6 and an Ingram Smartgun (5M damage, capable of
autofire with a ROF of 10). He fires a 3-round burst at a gang-member with
Body 4, Quickness 4, and a lined coat (2/4 Armor). The ganger's target number
to dodge is now 6 (4 + 2) while Blade rolls 8 dice in his Attack Test (6 +
2). The ganger gets no successes, while Blade rolls 6. The ganger has to roll
his Armor dice against 6D damage. He'd better hope for two successes.

After an autofire attack, the attacker suffers a recoil penalty equal to the
number of rounds fired after the first. So, in the above example, Blade would
have a recoil penalty of +2 on his next attack. Gas-vents, shock pads, stocks
and other forms of recoil compensation can eliminate some or all of the
recoil penalty.

SPELL COMBAT
Combat with spells works mostly the same as above, with a couple of special
rules. All spells use the caster's Sorcery Skill in the Attack Test.

Combat spells cannot be dodged or parried, they can only be blocked using
spell defense. So long as the caster rolls at least 1 net success, the spell
hits the target. Armor does not protect against combat spells, but the victim
does get to roll Body (physical spells) or Willpower (mana spells) for the
Damage Resistance Test, even against spells that cause Physical damage. This
represents the character's inherent resistance to the magical energies. The
spell's Force is the Power of the attack and each combat spell has a base
Damage Level. The damage is reduced normally.

Manipulation spells can be dodged, but not parried. They can also be blocked
using spell defense. Treat the manipulation spell as a normal ranged attack,
except it uses the caster's Sorcery Skill to hit and is not affected by
range, the base target number of the spell is 4, regardless of the distance
to the target, so long as it is in the caster's line of sight. Manipulation
spells that cause Physical damage are resisted by Impact Armor, with a Power
equal to the spell's Force and a base Damage Level determined by the spell.
(The target is not allowed to resist the damage using Body unless the spell
causes Stun damage.)

SAMPLE DAMAGE CODES

Melee Weapons
Fist: (Str)M Stun
Knife: (Str)L
Sword: (Str)M
Club: (Str+1)M Stun
Monowhip: 6S

Ranged Weapons
Holdout Pistol: 3L
Light Pistol: 3M
Heavy Pistol: 4M
Assault Rifle: 5M
Sniper Rifle: 6S
SMG: 4M
Message no. 2
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: [House Rules] SR Combat
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:42:08 -0800
At 15:42 12/3/97 -0500, Steve Kenson wrote:
>DAMAGE
>Characters hit with Physical damage cannot reduce the damage unless they are
>wearing armor (see below). Tough muscles are no match for monoblades or
>bullets. An unarmored character who is hit with a Physical damage attack
>takes whatever damage is determined from the Attack Test.

>Design Note: Halve the Power of all ballistic weapons from SR2 under this
>system.

So a heavy pistol does 4M, rather than 9M, and you need an armor rating of
8 in order to take no damage from a heavy pistol bullet, on average.
(Currently, you need Body 8 and 5 points of ballistic armor to get the
same effect.) This means Orks in armor jackets just got less tough...
and Trolls with swords got a lot nastier...

>INJURY MODIFIERS
> Only the
>highest level of injury (Physical or Stun) applies.

Suddenly the "you attack him with stun, I'll attack him with Physical"
ceases to be an effective tactic. This may or may not be good for your
game flavor.

> To
>attack more than one target, the attacker splits his Combat Skill dice
>however desired and makes a separate test for each target.

Good for one highly competent martial artist or gunner vs. a bunch of gumbies.

>A. Dodge
>If the defender chooses to Dodge, they roll their Quickness.

I'd expect your Armed or Unarmed Combat skill to be useful on this test as
well for melee attacks (but not necessarily ranged ones).

>C. Spell Defense
> The sorcerer rolls Sorcery Skill or Magic Attribute (whichever
>is less) against the Force of the spell, subtracting any successes directly
>from the caster's successes.

Hmmm... I'd suggest defining a Magic Pool as (average of Sorcery and Magic)
and using that, or contemplate getting rid of a Magic Pool altogether.
(Though it's still useful for splitting up between drain and attack power...
but I like the way that being on the defensive changes magical combat.)

>3. Calculate Damage
>For every two successes scored by the attack, the Damage Level of the attack
>is increased by one. When the code reaches Deadly, every two successes after
>that add +1 to the attack's Power.

That's "every two successes over the first one", right?

>Design Note: This is my solution to the "damage over Deadly" issue in
combat.
>Instead of counting Deadly +1, +2 and so on, if extra successes increase
>Power it will make the Deadly attack that much more difficult to stage down
>and more likely to penetrate armor, both of which I think work fairly well.

I like that.

>4. Damage Resistance Test
> For Physical
>damage, the defender rolls Impact or Ballistic Armor dice (as appropriate)
>against a target number equal to the Power of the attack.

This makes life a whole lot more lethal, and it means that a skinny Dwarf
and a burly Troll take the same damage from a .22. I agree with your point
on the lethality of physical damage, but likewise you don't want to have
people taking a sword to the gut and getting only a scratch... tough to
figure. I find myself thinking of things like "if the Power of a physical
attack is less than or equal to the appropriate armor rating, resolve it as
if it were stun", but I worry that that would get too complex...

>Steel: 6
>Composite Ceramics: 7
>Concrete: 8

This makes the Ram spell much more effective, as well as the Smashing Blow power
of Physical Adepts, unless you recalibrate those as well.

>Autofire
> For each round fired
>beyond the first, the defender's Dodge Test target number increases by +1 and
>the attacker rolls one additional die on his Attack Test.

Pretty good.

>SPELL COMBAT
>Combat with spells works mostly the same as above, with a couple of special
>rules. All spells use the caster's Sorcery Skill in the Attack Test.

So Sorcery is the skill, Force is the power, the spell is the damage
code. Sounds good. Can Magic Pool be thrown in as well, to correspond to
Combat Pool in the physical?

> Manipulation
>spells that cause Physical damage are resisted by Impact Armor, with a Power
>equal to the spell's Force and a base Damage Level determined by the spell.
>(The target is not allowed to resist the damage using Body unless the spell
>causes Stun damage.)

How does this relate to elemental effects? Does a Body 1 character take
the same damage from fire as a Body 10 character?

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 3
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: [House Rules] SR Combat
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 14:43:33 +1100
The Great and Mighty Steve Kenson wrote:

> DAMAGE
> There are two types of damage: Stun and Physical. Stun damage represents
> bruises, fatigue, and other damage that causes no permanent harm. Physical
> damage represents actual wounds, broken bones, burns, and so forth. All forms

Hmmmm... I hate to be nitpicky, but bruises *are* real wounds. They are
due to broken blood vessels - baby haemorrhages, if you will - within
the tissue. They're not the same as fatigue. If you say a bruise causes
no permanent harm, that's a bit like saying that neither does an
aneurysm or a broken bone. It's exactly the same thing, just on a
different scale.

Anyway, sorry about that.

<ANAL RETENTIVE MODE=off>



Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
"All right! Bovine intervention!!!" -- The Tick
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: JonSzeto <JonSzeto@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [House Rules] SR Combat
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:34:40 EST
In a message dated 97-12-03 16:42:13 EST, Steve Kenson writes:

> Design Note: Halve the Power of all ballistic weapons from SR2 under this
> system. The Power of melee attacks and spells does not change. This tends
to
> put all weapons on pretty much the same scale. One of the problems of SR2
> armor and damage as opposed to SR1 is that the Power of ballistic attacks
> increased, while the Power of most melee attacks remained pretty much the
> same, making firearms slightly more effective and melee combat less
> effective. This system seems to even out the disparities, while keeping
> firearms fairly lethal because their damage cannot be resisted as easily as
> a
> punch.
>

Sounds good so far, but I'm not sure how well this "re-engineered" damage
codes would apply to vehicle damage. My initial take is that, with this new
way of handling armor and damage reduction, it would work, but I'm not
entirely convinced. I'd have to think this out some more.

> Hardened armor (like that possessed by some
> critters) also acts like hard cover: if the Power of the attack does not
> exceed the Armor rating, the attack does no damage.
>

I'd also add that vehicle armor would be considered as hardened armor, under
this definition. This would apply both to attacks directed against the vehicle
itself, and also attacks directed against passengers/cargo.

> B. Parry
> If the defender chooses to parry, he rolls his appropriate Melee Combat
> Skill
> as if it were a normal Attack Test against the attacker (modified by Reach,
> etc.). If the defender scores more successes than the attacker, the
attacker
> is hit with a normal attack; follow steps 3 and 4 below. Ties result in a
> flurry of strikes and counterstrikes to no effect.
>

I really do not like this, because it means an attacker has to expend an
action to attack, while the defender can counterattack (and do damage) without
expending an action. I would suggest that a defender may parry ONLY IF she has
an action left: this may be either a held action, or an available action at a
later phase. If the defender chooses to give up a later action, then can the
defender parry the attack.

EXAMPLE: Blade has actions on phases 14 and 4, but on phase 16, he is attacked
in melee combat. Blade may parry the attack, but only if he gives up one of
his phases on either phase 14 or 4.

> If the barrier is very thin, divide the Barrier Rating in half (round down).
> For a very thick or reinforced barrier, double the Barrier Rating. So a
> reinforced concrete wall would have a Barrier Rating of 16. Even an
> anti-vehicle missile wouldn't penetrate such a barrier, only weaken it.
>

I disagree with the last sentence. Anti-vehicle weapons are designed to
penetrate barriers and spew damaging materials inside, damaging crewmen,
engines, and so on. On the other hand, anti-vehicle weapons, to achieve such
penetration, would not significantly weaken the structural integrity of the
barrier.

I would suggest that munitions designed to penetrate barriers (like anti-
vehicle weapons) penetrate if the Power is greater than half the barrier
rating, but its Power would be reduced by half the barrier rating (rounded
down). However, penetrating weapons like these do not reduce the Barrier
Rating.

My $0.02.

-- Jon

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about [House Rules] SR Combat, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.