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Message no. 1
From: LXR LXR@***.net
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 13:07:52 +0200
As soon as you commit a crime (aka shadowrun) investigations will lead to
your SIN (If you have one). Because even a tiny bodyhair of you is enough to
know who you are I think it's nearly impossible to commit a crime without
being identified. After that the investigators know *everything* about you
(appearance, fingerprint, voice, where you live, your favourite trid
channel, what you like to eat,....). OK as a smart shadowrunner you possess
an illegal SIN *but* now it's useless! And if you don't change _everything_
even a new illegal SIN is useless. With a new SIN you can change some data
like whereabouts, habits, etc but your fingerprints, voice, tissue is still
the same - or you can't identify yourself properly on retinal or voice scans
for example. You have to change your appearance (not just dying your hair
and a fake moustache. Body, size, etc) habit (it should not be too difficult
to detect similarities for a knowbot between two SINs), voice (same as
habit), fingerprint, tissue. It should be possible in 2060 but very
expensive.

So the only possibility is to stay sinless. But I think after you did enough
illegal things which have been detected and investigated you'll get caught
sooner or later.

Probably I'm missing something in my considerations for I am such a honest
citizen and can't imagine the real drek a shadowrunner in the 2060 can do to
no getting caught. What do you think about this?
Message no. 2
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 10:15:34 -0700
At 13:07 8/2/99 +0200, LXR wrote:
>As soon as you commit a crime (aka shadowrun) investigations will lead to
>your SIN (If you have one).

Not necessarily. They're going to have trouble figuring out which
body hairs belong to whom-- and while matching a cell scan against
*one* profile can be done quickly, it could take ages to match against
a national database, assuming you're even *in* that national database.
And if you were never rich enough to have a cell scan on file, that might be
a fruitless search anyway. Smart runners can avoid leaving fingerprints
as well; 2050's technology should be able to provide spray-on gloves
that will fill in the ridges on your fingerprints and keep your fingerprint
oils from leaking through and probably only add +1 to your tactile
target numbers.

You can also pay deckers to go and trash records in national databases--
swapping in a cell scan that isn't quite yours, and so on.

> With a new SIN you can change some data
>like whereabouts, habits, etc but your fingerprints, voice, tissue is still
>the same - or you can't identify yourself properly on retinal or voice scans
>for example. You have to change your appearance (not just dying your hair
>and a fake moustache. Body, size, etc) habit (it should not be too difficult
>to detect similarities for a knowbot between two SINs), voice (same as
>habit), fingerprint, tissue. It should be possible in 2060 but very
>expensive.

Take a look at my page http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/idchange.html ,
which discusses the matter. You can change just about everything, as
long as you have the body index for it... and the nuyen... and can
trust the person running the change.

--
%% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 3
From: Arcaist arcaist@*****.de
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:37:36 +0200
> an illegal SIN *but* now it's useless! And if you don't change
> _everything_ even a new illegal SIN is useless. With a new
> SIN you can change some data

How about getting a SIN of a another country? That could slow down the
whole investigation process immidiately due to formalities. If you get a
SIN of a country that dislikes the one you're in, you can also buy
yourself some time (imagine a CAS agency wants data on a citizen of
Aztlan [according to the fake SIN] : "Oh yes, Sir, certainly, erm,
please fill out form no. 33421-6, 890002 and the little green one I
never can find... oh, that's it: D44423F. They will be shipped to you
during the next two weeks"...)

--
Arcaist (><) www.s-s-r.de
Message no. 4
From: Number Ten Ox number_10_ox@**********.com
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 10:50:21 -0700 (PDT)
---Arcaist <arcaist@*****.de> wrote:
>
> > an illegal SIN *but* now it's useless! And if you don't change
> > _everything_ even a new illegal SIN is useless. With a new
> > SIN you can change some data
>
> How about getting a SIN of a another country? That could slow down the
> whole investigation process immidiately due to formalities.

In my group, 2 out of 6 characters have real, honest-to-god SINs.
The shaman, Steelhawk, holds hers from the Salish-Shidhe Council: the
decker, Logos, has an Israeli SIN. Hasn't come back to bite either of them
yet, because the dangerous part for a shadowrunner (at least AFAIR) is not
the existence of the SIN itself: it's that your voiceprint and
fingerprints and DNA scan and all your records are on file somewhere where
the law
enforcement authorities can get to them during a search.

And so far, the law doesn't really know all that much about the people in
the group: they haven't been implicated in anything, due no doubt
to their habit of hacking the security computers to erase camera footage. :)

--Number 10.
_________________________________________________________
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Message no. 5
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 10:50:05 -0700
At 19:37 8/2/99 +0200, Arcaist wrote:
>> an illegal SIN *but* now it's useless! And if you don't change
>> _everything_ even a new illegal SIN is useless. With a new
>> SIN you can change some data
>
>How about getting a SIN of a another country? That could slow down the
>whole investigation process immidiately due to formalities. If you get a
>SIN of a country that dislikes the one you're in, you can also buy
>yourself some time (imagine a CAS agency wants data on a citizen of
>Aztlan [according to the fake SIN] : "Oh yes, Sir, certainly, erm,
>please fill out form no. 33421-6, 890002 and the little green one I
>never can find... oh, that's it: D44423F. They will be shipped to you
>during the next two weeks"...)

If you *really* want to shell out, you can get diplomatic immunity.
Of course, the first time you get caught doing anything serious, you'll
be declared persona non grata and never able to use your diplomatic
immunity again, but it's a nice ace up your sleeve. Check out
http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/credsticks.html for more details.
(Yes, you *can* buy diplomatic immunity in the modern era... but
I'm sure the price has gone way, way up in the Shadowrun timeframe
because of all the runners who would want it...)

--
%% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 6
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:02:49 +0200
Number Ten Ox wrote:
> yet, because the dangerous part for a shadowrunner (at least AFAIR) is not
> the existence of the SIN itself: it's that your voiceprint and
> fingerprints and DNA scan and all your records are on file somewhere where
> the law
> enforcement authorities can get to them during a search.

I was wondering...if a character buys a gun with a legal and
honest-to-god-didn't-by-it-from-a-friend SIN, would the "fingerprint" that a
gun leaves behind on the bullet be documented as well? Would technology be
so advanced that they can just keep those prints with the registration
number of the weapon?

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."
Message no. 7
From: Caxal Balam arkainer@*****.com
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 12:41:00 -0700 (PDT)
--- Dennis Steinmeijer <dv8@********.nl> wrote:
> I was wondering...if a character buys a gun with a
> legal and
> honest-to-god-didn't-by-it-from-a-friend SIN, would
> the "fingerprint" that a
> gun leaves behind on the bullet be documented as
> well? Would technology be
> so advanced that they can just keep those prints
> with the registration
> number of the weapon?
>
> Dennis

Sure it will, in your SIN will be the permit for that gun, so the
fingerprint, voice and DNA will be just behinfd that "legal" gun.

So if the cops get one of the above will serch for somekind of person
that matches the one of the SIN (if u r a good runner this will be
obviously hard) anyways I prefer to have a fake creditstik that cost me
about 200k nuyens and have a "since-born fake ID" so the cells r from a
nobody person...

.


==------------------------------------------------------------
Caxal Balam
The Roar of the Jaguar
"That's the things were and that's the things are"
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Message no. 8
From: Lloyd Vance ljvance@*******.edu
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 12:41:37
At 08:02 PM 8/2/99 +0200, you wrote:
>I was wondering...if a character buys a gun with a legal and
>honest-to-god-didn't-by-it-from-a-friend SIN, would the "fingerprint" that a
>gun leaves behind on the bullet be documented as well? Would technology be
>so advanced that they can just keep those prints with the registration
>number of the weapon?
>Dennis

I think you are meaning the ballistics of a gun, right? I would assume
that by then, you could store an image of the rifling (if the bore is
rifled), but like the DNA, it would probably take an exceptionally long
time to find if all you have is the caliber of the rifle.

Brings up a question. All you gun guys out there, do you think that
Shotgun barrels are rifled or are the slugs?

-The Hamm
"Don't you _EVER_ take me to a movie like that again!"
-My girlfriend, after seeing Blair Witch Project
Message no. 9
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:57:52 +0100
In article <3.0.3.16.19990802124137.376f8316@*******.ucdavis.edu>,
Lloyd Vance <ljvance@*******.edu> writes
>I think you are meaning the ballistics of a gun, right? I would assume
>that by then, you could store an image of the rifling (if the bore is
>rifled), but like the DNA, it would probably take an exceptionally long
>time to find if all you have is the caliber of the rifle.

Either change weapons regularly, or at least (if you have a customised
smartlinked modified-to-the-max weapon) buy a vanilla copy and swap
over the barrel, firing pin, and extractor claw, then feed the old parts
into a furnace. Do that and you jettison most forensic evidence linking the
weapon to you.

I had an assassin PC who had a crate of thirty-six Ingram 20t SMGs - he
used one per job, destroyed it afterwards. _Nobody_ was going to tie him
to a past mission from a weapon...

(and this was _before_ I saw 'Crying Freeman' and his method of disposing
of his .38 snubnoses, too...)

>Brings up a question. All you gun guys out there, do you think that
>Shotgun barrels are rifled or are the slugs?

If you've got cyberchokes I'd guess you have to use rifled slugs and set the
choke to 'cylinder'.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 10
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:00:14 +0100
In article <001701bedd11$3bc807a0$91fc72c3@********.nl>, Dennis
Steinmeijer <dv8@********.nl> writes
>I was wondering...if a character buys a gun with a legal and
>honest-to-god-didn't-by-it-from-a-friend SIN, would the "fingerprint" that a
>gun leaves behind on the bullet be documented as well?

I would say "yes". But then, I'm fairly lenient on "legitimate carry"
with a
transport permit... hard work to _get_ the permit, and _using_ the
weapon is bad news, but the upside is you're _allowed_ to have that pistol
and even allowed to use it in self-defence.

Except for justifying its use and the scrutiny your SIN suddenly gets...

Tradeoffs, tradeoffs... :)

>Would technology be
>so advanced that they can just keep those prints with the registration
>number of the weapon?

I'd say so, but that's just opinion.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 11
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 10:04:40 -0400
>even a new illegal SIN is useless. With a new SIN you can change some data
>like whereabouts, habits, etc but your fingerprints, voice, tissue is still

Fingerprints can be replaced. The cheap, primative and really, really,
really, mind-renchingly painful way to do it is to burn off your
fingerprints. (pressing you hands against a sheet or faintly glowing steel
works, if you have some firends who can pull you away.) You will grow new
ones in a few months, but at the risk of loss of flexability and sensation
in your hands. The expensive way is to have a new set built for you a good
plasitc surgeon, but no one working under the auspices of the AMA will do
that kind of work (there are REAL shadow docs these days, but most of them
are med school washouts or goobs who lost thier liscenses for doing
something really nasty, unless you want to go to Russia or some part of the
Middle and Far East), and the risk of sensation and flexability loss is
still there, although it has been reduced.
For the voice, you need to fiddle with it. A number of singers have had
thier voices worked on, "tuned up" if you will. Problem is, you can only
do that so many times before the vocal cords give out. (The procedure
involves stretching or tightening the vocal cords, IIRC.) However, running
a a voice-print through a database of a couple of BILLION SINs would take
several days. In Shadowrun, there are several cyber gizmos that help you
change your voice. Good investment of cash and nuyen.
For retinas, the only way to do it today is to get an eye transplant, and
there are few donors and fewer places you can have it done. In SR, get
cybereyes with alterenet serial numbers. A good doc can pop them out,
stuff you in a stabalization unit, give them to a forger who can do "clean
room" work, take you out of the tank, pop in your eyes. You go talk to a
decker, accompanied by several thousand little friends, and arrange the old
serials to bleong to Mr John Dovorac, a formerly blind man living in
Bangor, Maine.

The only thing that can't be changed is a DNA scan, but that takes a
little while, and then you have to run the data through that database,
using several million fields per search and a backlog a mile long. Figure
a week ot get anything out of it. Again, go talk to your decker friend,
and switch DNA profiles with someone. It will get a a couple years in jail
if you have to spend a night in the drunk tank, but if only evidence is
being found, they arrest poor Mr Dovorac and his dog. If you get busted
without a SIN, you are going to jail anyways.

>for example. You have to change your appearance (not just dying your hair

Dying your hair, adding glasses or switching ot contacts (stay away from
the coloured contacts- they can't stand up to anything much greater than a
glance), alter your gait (a pebble glued to the underside of a replaceable
insole works well, but it hurts like hell), change you facial hair (not
advisableif you have a deep tan and pre-existing facial hair, becuase it
shows up instantly if you shave it off), get a new hair style (long hair to
short hair or, better yet, a technicolor mohawk, becuase all that will be
seen is the hawk), totally change your wardrobe, maybe add some temp tat's,
and your own mother won't recognize you if you keep you mouth closed and
have good ID.
For longer term effects, any Tiuhana (sp) plastic surgeon can do the face.
A cranky biker can take care of your walk. A forger, a good decker/hacker
and some leg work can provide you with something just about airtight. The
hardest part is not making slip ups.

>So the only possibility is to stay sinless. But I think after you did enough

No, it isn't. You just have to be careful. There are wanted criminals
who have done nothing more than what I described above to break contact,
got themselves good papers, and effectively disappeared for twenty years,
and would still be mising today if they hadn't turned themselves in (like
the SLA member that came in last year) or accidently had a family member
come in contact with them (there was a murderer from (IIRC) Conneticut that
had that happen to him- been clear for six or so years, got a GED with a
bogus SSN, working at a gas station, and his brother or somthing pulled in).

>Probably I'm missing something in my considerations for I am such a honest
>citizen and can't imagine the real drek a shadowrunner in the 2060 can do to
>no getting caught. What do you think about this?

No offense, but I think taking you to my RP sessions would be like
throwing a crippled lamb into a cage with a pack of rabid dogs.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"'Impossible' is a term used by those of little imagination or intelligence
to describe that which they can not understand."
Message no. 12
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 21:23:35 -0400
At 19.37 08-02-99 +0200, you wrote:
>How about getting a SIN of a another country? That could slow down the
>whole investigation process immidiately due to formalities. If you get a

No dice. I get the impression that it is a mulitnational database, most
likely set up by the corporates and what is left of the UN. SYSTEM
Indentification Number, not National Indentification Number.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"'Impossible' is a term used by those of little imagination or intelligence
to describe that which they can not understand."
Message no. 13
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 21:27:29 -0400
At 10.15 08-02-99 -0700, you wrote:
>that will fill in the ridges on your fingerprints and keep your fingerprint
>oils from leaking through and probably only add +1 to your tactile

Not even that much. Once you learn how to tell the head and tail of a
quarter by touch with your bare hand, you can do it wearing surgical
gloves, including the ever impossible to find heavy duty, black ones.
(Gee, I wonder why THOSE aren't on the market?)


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"'Impossible' is a term used by those of little imagination or intelligence
to describe that which they can not understand."
Message no. 14
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 22:08:49 -0400
Max Rible wrote:
>Not necessarily. They're going to have trouble figuring out which
>body hairs belong to whom-- and while matching a cell scan against
>*one* profile can be done quickly, it could take ages to match against
>a national database, assuming you're even *in* that national database.
>And if you were never rich enough to have a cell scan on file, that might
be
>a fruitless search anyway. Smart runners can avoid leaving fingerprints
>as well; 2050's technology should be able to provide spray-on gloves
>that will fill in the ridges on your fingerprints and keep your fingerprint
>oils from leaking through and probably only add +1 to your tactile
>target numbers.

Don't forget the Sterilize spell too.

;)

Smilin' Jack
Message no. 15
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:28:51 -0700 (PDT)
> >Not necessarily. They're going to have trouble figuring out which
body hairs belong to whom-- and while matching a cell scan against
*one* profile can be done quickly, it could take ages to match against
a national database, assuming you're even *in* that national database.
And if you were never rich enough to have a cell scan on file, that
might be a fruitless search anyway. Smart runners can avoid leaving
fingerprints as well; 2050's technology should be able to provide
spray-on gloves that will fill in the ridges on your fingerprints and
keep your fingerprint oils from leaking through and probably only add
+1 to your tactile target numbers.
<Max Rible>

> Don't forget the Sterilize spell too.
> ;)
> Smilin' Jack

But doesn't that only work to make the "tissue samples" useless for
ritual tracing? (I very easily could be wrong on this one - it's been
ages since I read that spell description.)

*Doc' wonders if that spell works on...errr...yeah, that. "Just call me
the new Casanova!"*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 16
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 22:48:52 -0400
Doc asketh:
> > Don't forget the Sterilize spell too.
> > ;)
> > Smilin' Jack
>
> But doesn't that only work to make the "tissue samples" useless for
> ritual tracing? (I very easily could be wrong on this one - it's been
> ages since I read that spell description.)

I was referring to the hair and cell samples possibly left at a crime scene.

Of course a good ammonia bomb would work too. ;)

;)

Smilin' Jack
Message no. 17
From: Tarek Okail Tarek_Okail@**********.com
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:25:59 -0400
Hamm--

>Brings up a question. All you gun guys out there, do you think
>that Shotgun barrels are rifled or are the slugs?

It's not a matter of thinking, it's a matter of knowing.
Shotguns are always smoothbore; if they had rifling, they'd be
called rifles. <g> The slugs have the rifling.

Shadowmage
Message no. 18
From: Walter Scheper Ratlaw@*******.com
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 23:43:10 +0000 (GMT)
On Mon, 02 Aug 1999 13:07:52 +0200, LXR <LXR@***.net> wrote:

>channel, what you like to eat,....). OK as a smart shadowrunner you possess
>an illegal SIN *but* now it's useless! And if you don't change _everything_
>even a new illegal SIN is useless. With a new SIN you can change some data
>like whereabouts, habits, etc but your fingerprints, voice, tissue is still
>the same - or you can't identify yourself properly on retinal or voice scans
>for example.

I'm wondering how often does the average shadowrunner want to properly
identify themselves on retinal or voice scans? When is your SIN going
to be crossreferenced to your fingerprints, voice or retina? What
prevents a person getting an illegal SIN from just grabbing some
person who died a while back, removing the date of death and inserting
their description? That way you have a SIN that is "assigned" to you,
via your description, but returns totally useless DNA, voice, retina,
fingerprints, etc.

Since everyone seems to be ignoring this possibility I can only assume
that I'm missing something obvious, so could someone please point it
out to me?

Walter
Message no. 19
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 22:52:13 -0700 (PDT)
> Doc asketh:
> > > Don't forget the Sterilize spell too.
> > > ;)
> > > Smilin' Jack
> >
> > But doesn't that only work to make the "tissue samples" useless for
ritual tracing? (I very easily could be wrong on this one - it's been
ages since I read that spell description.)
>
> I was referring to the hair and cell samples possibly left at a crime
scene.
> Of course a good ammonia bomb would work too. ;)
> ;)
> Smilin' Jack

So was I. That's the stuff that can be used to trace you via DNA
records (can't it?) and it's also useful for ritual tracking. So does
sterilise make it useless for technological tracing or just magical? In
which case I guess you'd need to use the spell AND that ammonia bomb of
yours. :)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 20
From: Lomion lomion@*********.org
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:51:50 -0700 (PDT)
On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, [iso-8859-1] Rand Ratinac wrote:

> > Doc asketh:
> > > > Don't forget the Sterilize spell too.
> > > > ;)
> > > > Smilin' Jack
> > >
> > > But doesn't that only work to make the "tissue samples" useless
for
> ritual tracing? (I very easily could be wrong on this one - it's been
> ages since I read that spell description.)
> >
> > I was referring to the hair and cell samples possibly left at a crime
> scene.
> > Of course a good ammonia bomb would work too. ;)

Another old trick is use of a fire extinguisher (c02 kind) too remove
trace evidence.

And the ultimate remover of evidence : t hat backpack tac nuke is
guaranteed to remove phsycial evidence at ground zero. Getting away from
that thing must be a bitch tho...


--Lomion
Message no. 21
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 10:39:14 -0400
At 22.48 08-02-99 -0400, you wrote:
>Of course a good ammonia bomb would work too. ;)

I prefeer a volley of white phospherous grenades and thermite or thermate
charges.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"'Impossible' is a term used by those of little imagination or intelligence
to describe that which they can not understand."
Message no. 22
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 10:54:55 -0400
At 12.41 08-02-99, you wrote:
>Brings up a question. All you gun guys out there, do you think that
>Shotgun barrels are rifled or are the slugs?

I have a rifled barrel for one of my shotguns, and shoot rifled slugs
through smoothbores.
However, based on the fact that (a) all the damage is calculated for slug,
and (b) in SR2 at least, shot expands from an unchoked barrel spreads to a
meter at a 6 meters for a level six shotgun, I'd say that they are rifled.
(Unchoked or cylinder bored barrels firing shot have the shot column expand
at a rate of about an inch per yard, but I tried birdshot froma rifled
barrel once- the pattern at ten feet was huge, with at least a third of it
of a 24 inch square pattern sheet.)
Although, the SR2 ranges for slug (barely) makes more sense for plain
slugs from smooth barrels. I don't know about SR3


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"'Impossible' is a term used by those of little imagination or intelligence
to describe that which they can not understand."
Message no. 23
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 10:54:58 -0400
At 23.57 08-02-99 +0100, you wrote:
>I had an assassin PC who had a crate of thirty-six Ingram 20t SMGs - he
>used one per job, destroyed it afterwards. _Nobody_ was going to tie him

If they were in a manufacturer's shipment, then they were probably in a
serial number range. Not to hard to figure out that if the rive spit forth
#25376108 and #25376106, that #25376107 is somewheres nearby, and possibly
in operation with the same shooter.

>(and this was _before_ I saw 'Crying Freeman' and his method of disposing
>of his .38 snubnoses, too...)

Good snubs are a grand a half dozen. If you are hitter, there is nothing
more sterile.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"'Impossible' is a term used by those of little imagination or intelligence
to describe that which they can not understand."
Message no. 24
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 10:55:15 -0400
At 23.51 08-02-99 -0700, you wrote:
>Another old trick is use of a fire extinguisher (c02 kind) too remove
>trace evidence.

Why? Are you are doing is (a) blowing it around, and (b) temporarily
preventing spoilage of soft tissue samples. It won't destroy a damn thing.

>guaranteed to remove phsycial evidence at ground zero. Getting away from
>that thing must be a bitch tho...

Shove of a mile and get under cover for the initial rad pulse. Estimates
on those things run as low as a quarter kiloton for one of the Russian
models. It is basically a truck bomb or the explosives from a couple iron
bombs that can be man packed.
Cheaper options include improvised, packframe mounted FAEs.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"'Impossible' is a term used by those of little imagination or intelligence
to describe that which they can not understand."
Message no. 25
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 11:03:48 -0700
At 10:04 8/2/99 -0400, IronRaven wrote:
>For retinas, the only way to do it today is to get an eye transplant, and
>there are few donors and fewer places you can have it done.

Replacement with clonal tissue should do just fine as well. Even identical
twins don't have identical fingerprints or retina prints, so if you
get your eyes and skin replaced with clonal tissue, you'll get
new retina prints and fingerprints. Of course, now you can't open
any of your old locks...

> The only thing that can't be changed is a DNA scan,

Technically, no. Practically, though, what are they scanning when they
do a DNA scan? Skin flakes and fallen hairs. (Blood samples would be
much harder to fake-- you'd have to get a complete replacement of all
bone marrow!) If you get your entire hide replaced with type O tissue,
you'll have the DNA scan of the last guy to wear that skin. Of course,
if rejection *does* set in, life could be bad. Better would be cultured
bioware. I address a lot of these notions at:
http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/idchange.html

Anyone know a shaman with a smartgun link I can name-drop on that
page?

> Dying your hair, adding glasses or switching ot contacts (stay away from
>the coloured contacts- they can't stand up to anything much greater than a
>glance), alter your gait (a pebble glued to the underside of a replaceable
>insole works well, but it hurts like hell), change you facial hair (not
>advisableif you have a deep tan and pre-existing facial hair, becuase it
>shows up instantly if you shave it off), get a new hair style (long hair to
>short hair or, better yet, a technicolor mohawk, becuase all that will be
>seen is the hawk), totally change your wardrobe, maybe add some temp tat's,
>and your own mother won't recognize you if you keep you mouth closed and
>have good ID.

Health spells to make hair grow faster and meddle with the amount of
melanin in parts of your body are very handy that way... and if you
believe magic can do things like reshape bone and smooth scars on a
permanent basis (coming up with the same effects as breaking bones and
letting them heal in a different configuration), a good surgeon-mage
could make a huge difference. Of course, any mage known to have such
spells will be watched like a hawk...


--
%% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 26
From: Bai Shen baishen@**********.com
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 14:43:42 -0400
> Anyone know a shaman with a smartgun link I can name-drop on that
> page?

Try Beowulf. He's a Wolf Shaman that I've had an idea for. Never actually got
around to writin' him up, though(not enough people in my area playin' SR).

Bai Shen
Message no. 27
From: Oliver McDonald oliver@*********.com
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 11:16:46 -0700 (PDT)
On Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:57:52 +0100, Paul J. Adam wrote:

>>Brings up a question. All you gun guys out there, do you think that
>>Shotgun barrels are rifled or are the slugs?
>
>If you've got cyberchokes I'd guess you have to use rifled slugs and set the
>choke to 'cylinder'.

Neither.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://web2.spydernet.com/oliver/
-----------------------------------------------------------
Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.
Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.

"that is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may
die."
-H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu."

ICQ: 38158540
Message no. 28
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 22:07:59 +0100
In article <4.1.19990803104623.00a89d20@******.ba.best.com>, Max Rible
<slothman@*********.org> writes
>Anyone know a shaman with a smartgun link I can name-drop on that
>page?

The Mighty Quinn, a.k.a. Susan Rodriguez. Coyote shaman.

"Yeah, I'm a cybershaman, so what? Ground something through _these_
reflex enhancers!"

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 29
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:28:46 -0400
Doc asked:
> So was I. That's the stuff that can be used to trace you via DNA
> records (can't it?) and it's also useful for ritual tracking. So does
> sterilise make it useless for technological tracing or just magical? In
> which case I guess you'd need to use the spell AND that ammonia bomb of
> yours. :)

I though sterilize would have that effect and destroy such samples. I don't
have my book handy to verify it though. Anyone know off hand?

:)

Smilin' Jack
Message no. 30
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:28:23 -0400
Ironraven said:
> I prefeer a volley of white phospherous grenades and
> thermite or thermate
> charges.

Hey, what's the difference between thermite and thermate? I am relatively
familiar with what thermite is, are there any notable differences?

;)

Smilin' Jack
Message no. 31
From: Lloyd Vance ljvance@*******.edu
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 17:05:49
At 06:28 PM 8/3/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Doc asked:
>> So was I. That's the stuff that can be used to trace you via DNA
>> records (can't it?) and it's also useful for ritual tracking. So does
>> sterilise make it useless for technological tracing or just magical? In
>> which case I guess you'd need to use the spell AND that ammonia bomb of
>> yours. :)
>
>I though sterilize would have that effect and destroy such samples. I don't
>have my book handy to verify it though. Anyone know off hand?
>Smilin' Jack

I don't have my book in front of me either, but we've played it like it
does both. In fact, the way we've been describing the effect is like a low
level fireball, that only affects the residual leavings.

-The Hamm
"What do you mean, I'm dead? Is that some kind of threat?"
-God, to Neitzche
Message no. 32
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 09:33:53 CST
>From: IronRaven <cyberraven@********.net>
> I prefeer a volley of white phospherous grenades and thermite or thermate
>charges.

Or a fire spell. :)



Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 33
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:39:46 EDT
In a message dated 8/3/99 12:27:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Tarek_Okail@**********.com writes:

> It's not a matter of thinking, it's a matter of knowing.
> Shotguns are always smoothbore; if they had rifling, they'd be
> called rifles. <g> The slugs have the rifling.
>
As has been mentioned elsewhere, Shotguns can indeed have rifled barrels. I
would still qualify them as shotguns myself.
Now, they also make bolt-action shotguns with rifled barrels :-)
(They get a little trickier to classify, but most hunting jurisdictions still
consider them shotguns)
Message no. 34
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 10:37:51 -0400
At 19.28 08-03-99 -0400, you wrote:
>Hey, what's the difference between thermite and thermate? I am relatively
>familiar with what thermite is, are there any notable differences?

Thermite can be made in your kitchen sink, lights pretty easy and dates
from WWII.
Thermate burns a couple hundred degrees hotter (better oxidizers, I think,
bacuase the book says that it can work to limited extent underwater), I
don't know how to make it and is little harder to light.

Other than that, diddly squat is the difference. Same size can, same fuze
body, and same use.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"'Impossible' is a term used by those of little imagination or intelligence
to describe that which they can not understand."
Message no. 35
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 12:01:09 +0100
In article <3.0.3.32.19990803105458.00a03100@***.softhome.net>,
IronRaven <cyberraven@********.net> writes
>At 23.57 08-02-99 +0100, you wrote:
>>I had an assassin PC who had a crate of thirty-six Ingram 20t SMGs - he
>>used one per job, destroyed it afterwards. _Nobody_ was going to tie him
>
> If they were in a manufacturer's shipment, then they were probably in a
>serial number range. Not to hard to figure out that if the rive spit forth
>#25376108 and #25376106, that #25376107 is somewheres nearby, and possibly
>in operation with the same shooter.

Which is why they were disposed of after being used once each - and I
don't mean just thrown in the river, I mean the barrel drilled out (lose the
rifling) and the boltface ground off (lose the firing pin and extractor
marks). Soak in caustic soda (degreaser - gets rid of fingerprints and any
powder residues) and you've made it harder to tie that weapon to
_anything_.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 36
From: David Hinkley dhinkley@***.org
Subject: How does an illegal SIN work?
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 20:47:27 -0700
Date sent: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 21:23:35 -0400
To: shadowrn@*********.org
From: IronRaven <cyberraven@********.net>
Subject: Re: How does an illegal SIN work?
Send reply to: shadowrn@*********.org

> At 19.37 08-02-99 +0200, you wrote:
> >How about getting a SIN of a another country? That could slow down the
> >whole investigation process immidiately due to formalities. If you get a
>
> No dice. I get the impression that it is a mulitnational database, most
> likely set up by the corporates and what is left of the UN. SYSTEM
> Indentification Number, not National Indentification Number.
>
Mine impression is just the oposite. There are many seperate national
systems. My reasoning is that an international data base system would
provide too much intelligence data to your less friendly neighbors. It would
make goverment approved identity changes both difficult and note worthy
(spies and witness protection). The same goes for corprate systems.

Mind you this does not mean that countries and corps don't want access to
other id data bases they just don't want to exchange data.

Besides, it provides a loophole that makes the game play better.

As to how it would work.. When you go through the port of entry, your ID
would be checked and a temporary ID ( visa ) issued for your stay. This ID
wold be readable in the readers used within the country and the data would
be in the data base of the country you are visting. A world traveler would be
in many national data bases.




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

===================================================Those who are too intelligent to engage
in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato

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