Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: How do tasers/shockgloves work?
Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 14:35:34 +1000
Does the current go from prong A to prong B via large sections
of the nervous system (i.e. following paths along nerves)?
I can't otherwise see how the shock would have an effect if
someone was wearing rubber-soled shoes.

luke
Message no. 2
From: Jai Tao <jdfalk@****.COM>
Subject: Re: How do tasers/shockgloves work?
Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 14:10:50 -0400
On Mon, 2 May 1994, Luke Kendall wrote:

> Does the current go from prong A to prong B via large sections
> of the nervous system (i.e. following paths along nerves)?
> I can't otherwise see how the shock would have an effect if
> someone was wearing rubber-soled shoes.

How do modern tasers work? Therein lies the answer. I,
personally, don't know, but here's some ideas...
The rubber-soled shoes, if they protect you at all, would only
provide limited protection. There was one time that I was unplugging a
light in my high schools' theatre, for example. I was wearing sneakers (I
_think_ the soles were rubber), and holding onto a bar so that I would not
fall thirty feet to the stage while I leaned out to unplug the AC cable to
the light.
The cable was wired hot to ground. The ground wire of the
twistlock socket that the cable was plugged into was inoperative. So, for
six extremely long seconds, _I_ completed the circuit -- that bar I was
holding on to was grounded.
Eventually, the thing came unplugged simply because I'd been able
to turn it enough to unplug it. I fell (I don't remember falling, though)
and, after a few seconds, my first words were "oh, shit."
Now, to return to the subject at hand -- I really don't know if
this helps with the taser or shock glove idea. That might just be one big
mama of a DC capacitator. But, hopefully, this gives some of you new
ideas on how to kill your enemies.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Jai Tao | "Beyond your tunnel vision reality fades
jdfalk@****.com | Like shadows into the night."
-Pink Floyd
Message no. 3
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: How do tasers/shockgloves work?
Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 13:38:52 -0500
Being (I think) the only one on this list that has ever been hit by a
taser (at a gay rights rally where a cop got a little . . . . uh . . .
concerned), all I can say is that they are very nasty.

As for the rubber soles thing, I don't know. Sorry.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Political Correctness is
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> P.C. for "Thought Police"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 4
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: How do tasers/shockgloves work?
Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 14:55:43 -0400
On Mon, 2 May 1994, Luke Kendall wrote:

> Does the current go from prong A to prong B via large sections
> of the nervous system (i.e. following paths along nerves)?
> I can't otherwise see how the shock would have an effect if
> someone was wearing rubber-soled shoes.
>
They work the same way the real thing works today in stunners and stun
batons...Major volts low amps...I am not sure of the physiological
reasons for their success but i am pretty sure that footgear makes no
difference..I have gotten shocked too often from spark pluggs and the
like to think otherwise...
-------------------GRANITE
Message no. 5
From: Jeff Norrell <norrell@*******.ME.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: How do tasers/shockgloves work?
Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 15:07:19 CDT
The main reason that tasers and the like work is that the electricity sent
into the body disrupts the central nervous system. Basically your system is
overloaded and can't compensate for the additional signals coming in. Your
nervous system is a complex mix of chemicals and electrical signals so a tasor
will really play havoc with it.

Maybe there's a biology major, etc. out there who has a little better insight
into this than I do, being in mechanical engineering.

-Blade
Message no. 6
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: How do tasers/shockgloves work?
Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 16:00:51 -0700
I believe that one of the parameters for a taser is frequency.
While one could use a direct current type weapon I think it is prohibitively
expensive in terms of battery use. Research was done which shows that
specific frequencies of current will propagate through tissues -- the current
tasers are ~60-120 Hertz, because as it turns out, those frequencies get
muscles the best (which is also why wall current will tend not to kill
you). I believe also that these are near the frequencies the body uses
in neural transmission but I am not certain. If anyone knows better,
please set me straight.

Cordially,

-- Adam
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell |acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu *or* ez000270@****.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 7
From: Quick Key <WAHERN@******.RCN.MASS.EDU>
Subject: Re: How do tasers/shockgloves work?
Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 23:45:54 -0400
As I understand it, tasers are not affected by grounding (i.e. rubber soles).
Tasers (and stun batons and shock sticks etc...) work by using a D.C. power
source (low voltage relatively high amperage) and converting it to A.C. power,
high voltage, low amperage. Your central nervous system talks to your muscles
using chemicals carrying a charge. Calcium with a + 2 charge is released and
causes a change to take place in the filaments of the muscles. This change is
basically an appearance of points where one filament can grab the other and
move in one direction. What the high voltage (A.C.) does is fool the body
(i.e. muscle) into thinking that the body is releasing huge ammounts of Ca 2+.
So the muscle contracts. but then the current switches and the muscle relaxes.
This continues until the guy (or gal) holding the taser takes his finger off
the trigger if it has one, or the auto-cycle in the taser expires, or the
battery dies. The A.C. current is what causes the violent shaking when you
get 'shocked' (but since the muscles in the body contract, I wouldn't
suggest 'tasing' someone who happens to be pointing a rifle in your direction).

Today's Tasers work by using the human body to complete a circut in the taser.
So since you happen to be in the middle, being grounded will not help. The
effect is similar to this: imagine standing on a grounded surface. Then
plug in an extension cord into an outlet. Having previously cut off the
'outlet' end of the cord hold ONE piece of the cord in your hand. You will
not be shocked. You have simply become an extension of the wire. But if
you weren't grounded you'd be shaking and quivering (and in the process of
dying). If you were to pick up the other peice of ext. cord you would be
shocked. Being tased is similar to someone helping you with this "experiment"
and touching you with both end of the cord at the same time.

Where do I get my information? Well, Anatomy I and II and personal experience
as an Electrician. While wiring a house (the outside) I was standing on a
wood ladder and was very cautious about grabbing the wire comming from the
street. My boss told me to just grab it, but just grab one. (My boss was
my dad so I trusted him.) I did and was surprised to find myself unhurt.

Hope *ALL* of this helps. :)
Will
Wahern@***.mass.edu
Never mind "Carpe Diem". . . "Carpe Noctem!"
Message no. 8
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: How do tasers/shockgloves work?
Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 22:56:16 -0500
I just summarize and say that tasers suck. When I got zapped, even after
the dart was removed, I spent at least fifteen minutes sitting there
shaking trying to remember my name.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Political Correctness is
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> P.C. for "Thought Police"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 9
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: How do tasers/shockgloves work?
Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 13:59:26 +1000
Robert A. Hayden:

> When I got zapped, [...] I spent at least fifteen minutes sitting
> there shaking trying to remember my name.

I won't say it.
I won't say it.

luke
Message no. 10
From: Can I play with madness <MKNABUSCH@******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: How do tasers/shockgloves work?
Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 02:49:35 -0500
But don't tasers have less an effect depending on the sizw
of the attacker? I had a friend of mine (he was quite drunk
at the time) ask another friend (a rent-a-cop) to hit him with
the taser gun (hand held job w/ prongs). After several minutes
of arguement, the cop did. My friend grinned and continued his
beer, much to the cops chargin. My friend tips in at 350lbs.
I don't know much about them, but shouldn't he have hit the ground?

Michael K.
Message no. 11
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: How do tasers/shockgloves work?
Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 14:08:52 +1000
Quick Key wrote lots, including:

> As I understand it, tasers are not affected by grounding (i.e. rubber soles).
Oops: that's insulation, not grounding.

> Today's Tasers work by using the human body to complete a circut in the
> taser. So since you happen to be in the middle, being grounded [insulated]
> will not help.

This is sort of what I wanted to know. So my guess was right? - that the
circuit follows nerve pathways, rather than arcing between the prongs (i.e.
it follows a path of least resistance, rather than the shortest path).

And the AC frequency is chosen so as to maximise immobilisation by
targeting the nerves controlling muscles. Presumably really cruel
and deadly effects could be achieved by selecting some other frequency...

Thanks for all the info, people.

luke
Message no. 12
From: "J.W.Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: How do tasers/shockgloves work?
Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 13:33:34 +0100
>
> On Mon, 2 May 1994, Luke Kendall wrote:
>
> > Does the current go from prong A to prong B via large sections
> > of the nervous system (i.e. following paths along nerves)?
> > I can't otherwise see how the shock would have an effect if
> > someone was wearing rubber-soled shoes.
>
> How do modern tasers work? Therein lies the answer. I,
> personally, don't know, but here's some ideas...

ersonally,the shock is enough to put your CNS into shock
And the way around it?
EARTHED ARMOUR
Build conductive strips into your riot troops full suit so that
the current never touches them...it just goes straight to earth.
Not easy to hide,but very useful
The CHOPPER
everything you know is wrong
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <jweste%smtp@******.HZEELAND.NL>
Subject: Re: How do tasers/shockgloves work? - Reply
Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 14:26:44 +0200
>Being (I think) the only one on this list that has ever been hit by a
>taser (at a gay rights rally where a cop got a little . . . . uh . . .
>concerned), all I can say is that they are very nasty.

I remember watching a talk-show a couple years back, in which they were
talking about tasers. One guy was a volunteer, and they simply touched
his arm with a taser. What happened was that he totally couldn't move his
arm for about 15 minutes. And he wasn't some small, frail character,
either (at least Body 4 or 5, in SR terms :+)

>Finger for Geek Code Info

Yes, I did. But is there some way to save all the info you get?



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Gurth + "Ik kom u vrede en geluk brengen." +
+ (jweste%smtp@******.hzeeland.nl) + "MOOI! ZET MAAR IN DE GANG NEER!" +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Message no. 14
From: Quick Key <WAHERN@******.RCN.MASS.EDU>
Subject: Re: How do tasers/shockgloves work?
Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 11:48:44 -0400
Umm.. yeah well I did leave out one thing (imagine that!) Tasers are
affected by the size of the person, level of intoxication, current drug
use, etc... A relaxant in the system will reduce the effect of the taser.
An yes the taser current follows the nerve pathways and the shortest path
(it's basically a short circut that you find yourself in the middle of).
BTW what kind of effect will a burst of high voltage, low current have on
cyber-ware; i.e. there must be some kind of nerve interface and considering
the enhanced strength of the cyber-ware, what would happen to say, a
replacement arm? Pull the metal off of the bone anchor? Icky Yuck!
Quick Key
Wahern@***.mass.edu
Never mind "Carpe Diem". . . "Carpe Noctem!"
Message no. 15
From: "Seth A. Buntain" <enthar@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: How do tasers/shockgloves work?
Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 12:41:39 -0500
From my understanding, modern police tasers come in two varities:
1) The 'dart gun' approach. The gun (which vaguely resembles a phaser
from Star Trek) shoots out a small dart with a thin wire attached. The wire
carries the current to the target. The dart itself will go through most
clothing (although I have heard it said tht heavy jackets and such will stop
it).
2) The 'shock stick' approach. Basically looks the same, but instead
of a dart, it uses two leads and arcs the current between them. Range is about
3 feet.

Both are _supposed_ to deliver around 60,000 volts, at _much_ less than 1 amp.
Ive been told that its the amps that kill you (~.0001 amp across the heart to
stop it) but its the volts that screw you up. Of course, if you read the
punisher War Journal, he says he can modify that to 3 or 4 hundred thousand.

As a nifty story, a friend of mines dad took a taser gun (the arcing variety)
and held it above his heart for 1.5 minutes, with no ill effects. Course, he
comes from a line of tough bastards, but thats still highly unusual.

Finally, wearing rubber soles or other insulating shoewear will not diminish
the effects of a taser, as they do not use the ground for, well, a ground.

My sole experience with a taser gun (again, the nasty pronged variety) had me
laying on the gound throwing up for about 5 minutes. All I could do was
twitch. Yuck.

--
Seth Buntain | "You will find that a great many of the truths
Enthar the Eternal | that we cling to depend greatly on our own point
email: enthar@***.edu | of view" --Obi Wan Kenobi
(V 1.01) GE d -p+ c++ l u e+(*) m(++) s/- !n h- f+ g- w+ t+(++) r+(++) !y
"It's a damn poor man who can't spell a wyrd in more than one way!"
-Thomas Jefferson
My opinions, comments and even facts are all mine.
Message no. 16
From: Keith Solomon <aks1@**.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: How do tasers/shockgloves work?
Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 23:12:41 -0500
Someone mentioned that they heard about heavy jackets, etc. stopping the
effect of a taser. This is very true. I had a run-in with the local
constabulary (ok, so I *fractured* a few laws...:), and they oped to try
to 'zap' me. At the time I was wearing a heavy (buffalo skin leather,
about 15 mm thick) biker jacket. The jacket stopped the darts cold.
When I got home, I checked my jacket, and there were two holes on the
outside skin of the leather, but they didn't gop all the way through.
The next day, a friend of mine (who happens to be a cop) asked me how I
liked my experience with the taser. i told him it didn't faze me, and
showed him my jacket. He decided to try again, both with the dart-type
and the hand-held version. Neither one could penetrate my jacket. i
told him it wouldn't have made a difference anyway, because it wouldn't
affect me. He bet me $20 that it would. Suffice it to say, i went home
$20 richer! :)

__________________________________________________
| Keith Solomon | How come an ounce of pot |
| aks1@**.msstate.edu | is a felony but 10,000 |
| TIP#104 | gallons of oil in the |
|---------------------| ocean is business as |
| Paintball Rules!!!! | usual? Support NORML!! |
--------------------------------------------------
Message no. 17
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: How do tasers/shockgloves work?
Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 14:53:44 +1000
Keith Solomon wrote:

> [...] a heavy (buffalo skin leather, about 15 mm thick) biker
> jacket [...] stopped the darts cold. [... Neither] the dart-type [nor]
> the hand-held version [...] could penetrate my jacket.

I'd bet that the tasers in the shadowrun world have not been designed
to treat the victim so gently.

luke

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about How do tasers/shockgloves work?, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!