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Message no. 1
From: Malcolm Shaw <malhms@*********.COM.AU>
Subject: How do you kill them?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:37:13 +1100
If this message is a bit long please bear with me as I think I have a
legitimate gripe.

One of our SR nights included a face off with three regenerating
characters and my street sam seemed to kill one of them and then turning
to the next was surprised to find the one he had just killed slicing at
him again, even if his head was still hanging by a thread. Then to
crown all insults my character lost on a roll against fear and was seen
running out of the room leaving companions to face the three regens.
Then just as my character stopped running and started to return to the
fight he saw a large fire ball blossom in the room he had run from.
Apparently the mage among the regens had decided it was time to slay the
lot and had cast a force 10 fireball - who cares if he did not survive
either the drain or the fireball he was a regen and his two companions
also. THen when I entered the room all lay dead?? and I thought her I
take revenge, too out my large knife and thought to take off the head of
the regen mage when he opened his eyes and said look behind you. Two
regens on their feet H&K drawn, cocked and ready to fire - farewell to
me.

Now I mean to say a roll on a d6 to determine if the regen is dead? and
only one roll says they are? this seems crazy and if the regen is in
your party they act like they are a god running a round facing every
thing with no fear of dying, or at the worst very little not like any
other character. If the regen is also a shaman, as one of our other
groups had he sits down and conjurs a force 10 spirit - who cares if the
damage from drain is physical he heals so rapidly it does not matter.

IN AD&D and other Rpg's there is a way of slaying a regen character -
wooden stake through the heart - silver blade or bullet. Just what was
FASA thinking when they put shapeshifters and other regen characters in
the plot. In my opinion they seem to make to great an unbalance in
characters whether they are foes, NPC or PC. Has any one taken this up
with FASA in regards to MITS?

Malcolm - a bewildered PC who is starting to hate shapeshifters with a
vengeance - If only I could find a way to kill them
Message no. 2
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 20:41:23 EST
In a message dated 1/10/99 8:38:34 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
malhms@*********.COM.AU writes:

>
> Malcolm - a bewildered PC who is starting to hate shapeshifters with a
> vengeance - If only I could find a way to kill them
>
No offense, that is the reason I think I redid the rules on "Regeneration",
especially with regards to extreme variations on damage (like fire or bomb
blasts or weapon foci).

Your argument is a valid one, althought I believe that whomever the GM was for
that game was simply out to shaft the lot of you. I'd ask him if "s/he
enjoyed that game" and then follow it up with "because I/we certainly did
not."

-K
Message no. 3
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:55:04 +1000
> If this message is a bit long please bear with me as I think I have a
> legitimate gripe.
>
> One of our SR nights included a face off with three regenerating
> characters and my street sam seemed to kill one of them and then
> turning to the next was surprised to find the one he had just killed
> slicing at him again, even if his head was still hanging by a thread.
> Then to crown all insults my character lost on a roll against fear and
> was seen running out of the room leaving companions to face the three
> regens. Then just as my character stopped running and started to
> return to the fight he saw a large fire ball blossom in the room he
> had run from. Apparently the mage among the regens had decided it was
> time to slay the lot and had cast a force 10 fireball - who cares if
> he did not survive either the drain or the fireball he was a regen and
> his two companions also. THen when I entered the room all lay dead??
> and I thought her I take revenge, too out my large knife and thought
> to take off the head of the regen mage when he opened his eyes and
> said look behind you. Two regens on their feet H&K drawn, cocked and
> ready to fire - farewell to me.
<Malcolm>

Okay, personally, as far as regeneration goes, it's not supposed to work
in cases of severe trauma - for example, getting your head cut off, or
being blown into itty-bitty pieces. That's represented by the 1 in d6
roll (spinal damage, blowing off his head etc.). So if, in the course of
the game, an injury is caused (by a called shot, probably, or a fireball
or acid spell or the like) which has an effect similar to the ones given
above, the regenerating character is DEAD - no chance of regeneration.
At least, in my game.

So, for example, when your sammie essentially cut off the character's
head, leaving it 'hanging by a thread', that character should have been
DEAD. Its spinal cord was severed, and that's one of the instances where
regeneration is not supposed to work. So, as K just said, the GM shafted
you.

Same with the mage casting a force 10 fireball and having everyone
caught within the area of effect - well, they ALL should have been dead
if they took deadly damage. Essentially, they would have been burnt to a
crisp - and regeneration is NOT supposed to help in circumstances like
that. You can't regenerate if all you are is ashes in the wind. Same
with acid - if most of your body has been dissolved, you shouldn't be
able to regenerate that.

Now, I can't recall the SR3 regeneration rules, or the exact wording of
the SRII rules for that matter, but common sense should prevail. Really,
the 1 in 6 rule is silly if ALWAYS taken literally. Remember, the rule
is DESIGNED TO REPRESENT severe trauma. For instance, in a net story I
saw one time, the author had a wolf shapeshifter getting his head blown
to pieces by an SMG burst at point blank range (about a foot away, as I
recall). Fine. Then, however, the pieces of the shapeshifter's head
started crawling together and reforming, as it were. Wrongo. I asked him
how the shapeshifter survived getting his head blown off and he said
that in essence, the character didn't roll a 1 on a d6. I then informed
him that that rule is supposed to represent the regenerating character
suffering severe trauma - such as getting its head blown apart.

Well, anyway, he didn't fix it, but I'm sure you can see what I'm
saying. As K said, it REALLY looks like your GM was out to get you, so
let him know how you feel about it.

*Doc' wonders if, being a vampire, an immortal elf and a shapeshifter,
he can regenerate from the effects of a nuclear blast if the guy who
dropped the bomb doesn't roll a one on his d6?*

Doc'

.sig Sauer
Message no. 4
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:10:54 +1000
At 12:37 PM 1/11/99 +1100, you wrote:
>If this message is a bit long please bear with me as I think I have a
>legitimate gripe.
>
>One of our SR nights included a face off with three regenerating
>characters and my street sam seemed to kill one of them and then turning
>to the next was surprised to find the one he had just killed slicing at
>him again, even if his head was still hanging by a thread. Then to
>crown all insults my character lost on a roll against fear and was seen
>running out of the room leaving companions to face the three regens.
>Then just as my character stopped running and started to return to the
>fight he saw a large fire ball blossom in the room he had run from.
>Apparently the mage among the regens had decided it was time to slay the
>lot and had cast a force 10 fireball - who cares if he did not survive
>either the drain or the fireball he was a regen and his two companions
>also. THen when I entered the room all lay dead?? and I thought her I
>take revenge, too out my large knife and thought to take off the head of
>the regen mage when he opened his eyes and said look behind you. Two
>regens on their feet H&K drawn, cocked and ready to fire - farewell to
>me.
>
>Now I mean to say a roll on a d6 to determine if the regen is dead? and
>only one roll says they are? this seems crazy and if the regen is in
>your party they act like they are a god running a round facing every
>thing with no fear of dying, or at the worst very little not like any
>other character. If the regen is also a shaman, as one of our other
>groups had he sits down and conjurs a force 10 spirit - who cares if the
>damage from drain is physical he heals so rapidly it does not matter.
>
>IN AD&D and other Rpg's there is a way of slaying a regen character -
>wooden stake through the heart - silver blade or bullet. Just what was
>FASA thinking when they put shapeshifters and other regen characters in
>the plot. In my opinion they seem to make to great an unbalance in
>characters whether they are foes, NPC or PC. Has any one taken this up
>with FASA in regards to MITS?


A few of things to note here. Firstly, nowhere in the rules does it say
that regenerating character regenerate from Stun damage. Personally, I
like to think that regenerating characters get rid of Stun as well, but
then again I don't use the D6 rule either, so I guess that point is moot.
Secondly, Overflow will still kill a character with regeneration normally.
The above mentioned case of having his head severed would no doubt apply as
some pretty severe Overflow. Lastly, I'd like to note that damage from
drain (at least according to the rather pathetic rules presented for
ShapeShifter regeneration in the Shadowrun Companion) does not regenerate
at the normal rate.

As for slaying regenerating creatures, well the standard rules don't hold
up so well, so I use my own optional rules. Essentially they consist of
nothing more than that every time the critter gets a Deadly wound it has to
make an Essence Test against a target number equal to the highest Power
Level of the nastiest weapon that got it to that condition +1 for every
point of Overflow. If the critter passes the test it stays alive,
otherwise it regenerates. Simple enough I suppose.

(>)ARKHAM
"Pop-quiz hotshot: Five hundred Storm Troopers on jetpacks fly down from
the hole in the ceiling. What do you do? WHAT DO YOU DO?!?!"
Message no. 5
From: Tim Burke <timburke@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:32:39 +1000
> Just what was
>FASA thinking when they put shapeshifters and other regen characters in
>the plot. In my opinion they seem to make to great an unbalance in
>characters whether they are foes, NPC or PC.

Malcolm,

The problem is not with FASA but with your GM allowing
these munchkin races into the game. Nothing screws up
a game more that a <$%&#@(*&> shapeshifter, PC or not.




Tim Burke
Brisbane, Australia
timburke@*******.com.au
#shadowrun: Manx , 950 of 1000.
afdl: Retleranthalon

"Please note my new e-mail address.
Formerly of ranger@********.com.au"
Message no. 6
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:12:49 EST
In a message dated 1/10/99 9:39:56 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
timburke@*******.COM.AU writes:

>
>
> The problem is not with FASA but with your GM allowing
> these munchkin races into the game. Nothing screws up
> a game more that a <$%&#@(*&> shapeshifter, PC or not.
>
Uh, Tim, he was discussing NPC Shapeshifters there bud ... ;P

-K (quickly putting a baffling blanket over Barbie, lest she hear this and
make too much noise for nothing... ;-)
Message no. 7
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 22:35:22 -0600
> > The problem is not with FASA but with your GM allowing
> > these munchkin races into the game. Nothing screws up
> > a game more that a <$%&#@(*&> shapeshifter, PC or not.
> >
> Uh, Tim, he was discussing NPC Shapeshifters there bud ... ;P

Not necessarily. The original post isn't precisely clear on this point.

Quote: "this seems crazy and /if the regen is in your party/ they act like
they are a god running a round facing every
thing with no fear of dying, or at the worst very little not like any other
character."

And then: "If the regen is also a shaman, /as one of our other groups had/
he sits down and conjurs a force 10 spirit - who cares if the damage from
drain is physical he heals so rapidly it does not matter."

(/emphasis/ mine)

While the description would imply that their opponents in this fight are
NPC's...this may not necessarily be true...


-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-

(doin' that fact-checkin' nit-pickin' thang again)
Message no. 8
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:06:17 +1000
> > > The problem is not with FASA but with your GM allowing
> > > these munchkin races into the game. Nothing screws up
> > > a game more that a <$%&#@(*&> shapeshifter, PC or not.
> > >
> > Uh, Tim, he was discussing NPC Shapeshifters there bud ... ;P
>
> Not necessarily. The original post isn't precisely clear on this
> point.
<Snipples(TM)>
> While the description would imply that their opponents in this fight
> are NPC's...this may not necessarily be true...
-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-

(David Lee Goth? :) )

Seriously, folks, it's rather obvious. The described combat was against
regenerating opponents. The team may or may not have included
shapeshifters and/or other regenerating characters and may or may not
have been NPCs (although, they That doesn't matter.

The poster, Malcolm, also has complaints about PC regenerating
characters (probably shapeshifters), because they munchkinly cast super
powerful spells which they then regenerate the drain from.

So it's on both sides of the coin, okay? Now let's get back to the
problem of solving the 'Shapeshifter Dilemma', as it were.

Malcolm, here's a suggestion that I forgot to include before, that
addresses the issues of regenerating characters and super-powered
spells...

a) Regeneration is an innate MAGICAL ability. Nothing natural about it.
It's purely magical, although, as I said before, it's a kind of innate
magic.
b) Drain in SR3, especially physical drain caused by casting spells of a
force higher than a character's magic rating (or casting spells in
astral combat) CANNOT BE HEALED MAGICALLY.

Okay, who can see where I'm going with this? *Evil GM grin*

First things first, the rules for regenerating stun damage, including
drain, are included in the Shadowrun Companion and aren't as easy on the
characters as standard regeneration rules. Good start.

Second of all, I would say that, as a form of magical healing,
regeneration does NOT work on physical drain. If you take physical drain
from casting a too-powerful spell, or for casting spells in astral
combat, the damage WILL NOT regenerate. You have to heal it naturally,
by resting and/or surgery, just as anyone else would. So that force 10
fireball casting mage of Malcolm's would have made his own head pop from
the drain, even if he hadn't burnt himself to a crisp with the fireball
itself.

Have fun with this one.

*Doc' ties K down and sees if his fingers and toes and
other...extremities...will regenerate if they're chopped off.*

Doc'

.sig Sauer
Message no. 9
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:50:51 -0600
From: Tim Burke
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 1999 8:33 PM

>The problem is not with FASA but with your GM allowing
>these munchkin races into the game. Nothing screws up
>a game more that a <$%&#@(*&> shapeshifter, PC or not.

The shaper rules suck, I think we're all agreed on that...but they're
only munchy if the GM is out to screw the players (NPC) or is afraid to
put his foot down about some of the shit people can try to pull (PC).

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 10
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:50:54 -0600
From: Ratinac, Rand (NSW)
Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 12:06 AM

>a) Regeneration is an innate MAGICAL ability. Nothing natural about it.
>It's purely magical, although, as I said before, it's a kind of innate
>magic.
>b) Drain in SR3, especially physical drain caused by casting spells of
>a force higher than a character's magic rating (or casting spells in
>astral combat) CANNOT BE HEALED MAGICALLY.
>
>Okay, who can see where I'm going with this? *Evil GM grin*

Same place some of us have already been. It would, of course, be good
if this were actually written down someplace by the guys who write the
rules...but let's not go there. <g>

>Second of all, I would say that, as a form of magical healing,
>regeneration does NOT work on physical drain.

Preach it, brother.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 11
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 01:22:35 -0600
On Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:37:13 +1100 Malcolm Shaw <malhms@*********.COM.AU>
writes:
>If this message is a bit long please bear with me as I think I have a
>legitimate gripe.
>
>One of our SR nights included a face off with three regenerating
>characters and my street sam seemed to kill one of them and then turning
>to the next was surprised to find the one he had just killed slicing at
>him again, even if his head was still hanging by a thread.

This character, should have been dead, unless "hanging by a thread" is
metaphor (is that right word?) for deadly damage.

>Then to
>crown all insults my character lost on a roll against fear and was seen
>running out of the room leaving companions to face the three regens.

Uhm ... roll against fear? Why?

>Then just as my character stopped running and started to return to the
>fight he saw a large fire ball blossom in the room he had run from.
>Apparently the mage among the regens had decided it was time to slay the
>lot and had cast a force 10 fireball - who cares if he did not survive
>either the drain or the fireball he was a regen and his two companions
>also.

Regenerating characters do not regenerate drain (See the SRCo pg.XX and
possibly the SR3 GM Screen). By the way ... If the mage took a deadly
wound, then he has to check to see IF he regenerates and if he lost a
point of magic <eg>.

>THen when I entered the room all lay dead?? and I thought her I
>take revenge, too out my large knife and thought to take off the head of
>the regen mage when he opened his eyes and said look behind you.

If you already severed the head of the mage then the mage should have
been dead. "REGENERATION The being cannot be killed by wounds except
when the damage injures the spine or brain", Page 219, SR2

>Two
>regens on their feet H&K drawn, cocked and ready to fire - farewell to
>me.

Did your GM have it for you guys or something?

>Now I mean to say a roll on a d6 to determine if the regen is dead? and
>only one roll says they are? this seems crazy and if the regen is in
>your party they act like they are a god running a round facing every
>thing with no fear of dying, or at the worst very little not like any
>other character.

I played a shapeshifter for a little while (I quit because I couldn't get
properly into character.) and did not act like this ... I almost died
(took a deadly wound but little or no overflow) twice. Why? Because I
ran into the line of fire without a care in the world? Nope because
while trying to pull a partner's butt out of the frier (same guy both
times), I found myself the only target for the bad guys. Most annoying.

>If the regen is also a shaman, as one of our other
>groups had he sits down and conjurs a force 10 spirit - who cares if the
>damage from drain is physical he heals so rapidly it does not matter.

See note above about drain.

>IN AD&D and other Rpg's there is a way of slaying a regen character -
>wooden stake through the heart - silver blade or bullet. Just what was
>FASA thinking when they put shapeshifters and other regen characters in
>the plot. In my opinion they seem to make to great an unbalance in
>characters whether they are foes, NPC or PC. Has any one taken this up
>with FASA in regards to MITS?

From reading your post, it wasn't FASA that prevented those regenerating
NPCs from dying, it was your GM. Basicly, any wound that is instantly
fatal for non-regenerating characters is instantly fatal for regenerating
characters. Regeneration does NOT make you immortal. What it does is
allow a character to survive wounds that would have been *eventually*
fatal. The roll of 1d6 to check IF a character regenerates is because of
SR's lack specific hit locations. If you knew precisely what organ was
injured, there wouldn't be a need to roll 1d6.

That means a regenerating character does not regenerate if:
1) The character takes Deadly damage, and rolls a 1 (or 2 if the attack
caused massive tissue trauma [ie, a grenade or a fireball spell.].) on
1d6.
2) The character takes deadly damage from a called shot to the brain
and/or spinal column.
3) The character takes overflow that instantly kills him/her (ie, Deadly
+10 +body).

Number of 3 is an interpretation of "..., but if the wounds do not cause
death, the wounds vanish at beginning of the next Combat Turn." (page
219, SR3)

I handle regeneration differently in my games... a regenerating character
regenerates 1 box of physical damage per turn per point of Essence. This
divided amongst the character's actions so you get a nice gradual
regeneration instead of "*PING* I'm all better now!"

By the way ... certain damage doesn't regenerate ... if you want to kill
shapeshifters, drown them. :)

Another tactic for the mages is not to kill them ... cast and sustain
petrify on them. Now, where is that sledgehammer? :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)
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Message no. 12
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:44:18 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Malcolm Shaw wrote:
/
/ Malcolm - a bewildered PC who is starting to hate shapeshifters with a
/ vengeance - If only I could find a way to kill them

Everyone else has covered the general interpretation of the Regen rules, so
I'll skip that :)

How do you kill a regenerator?

Knock them out, then sever their spine or blow their brains out. There
are a variety of weapons in SR that cause stun damage.

Use restraints. Net guns work well. Pinning them against a building
with your car will also do the trick. Then you can slice and dice at
your leisure.

Anti-vehicle weapons. If the overflow is enough to kill them
instantly, their regeneration can't help them.

Screw with their heads. Illusion spells work well for this. Get them
so distracted that they're easy to hit and they can't fight back. It
may take awhile, but you'll get past their regeneration eventually.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:30:17 +0100
According to David Buehrer, at 8:44 on 11 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> How do you kill a regenerator?

Attack them with two people. Once the critter goes down, have someone with
a high-damage weapon (BF-capable shotgun, machine gun, assault rifle, or
something similar) stand over them with a held action. As soon as the
critter moves, pump some lead into it. The other person can kill it
permanently by for instance cutting its head off.

Simply put so many bullets into it that it takes massive overflow damage.
Don't do this in one long burst if you're using standard SR rules (because
you'll miss, and because you can't go above Deadly), but fire a whole load
of six-round bursts from an automatic weapon. Either the critter takes
lots of Deadly wounds and has to check for permanent death every time
before it regenerates, or it'll die from having too much overflow damage.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kleiduivenmelker
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: Joshua Mumme <Grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:10:36 -0600
Gurth wrote:

> According to David Buehrer, at 8:44 on 11 Jan 99, the word on
> the street was...
>
> > How do you kill a regenerator?
>
> Attack them with two people. Once the critter goes down, have someone with
> a high-damage weapon (BF-capable shotgun, machine gun, assault rifle, or
> something similar) stand over them with a held action. As soon as the
> critter moves, pump some lead into it. The other person can kill it
> permanently by for instance cutting its head off.
>
> Simply put so many bullets into it that it takes massive overflow damage.
> Don't do this in one long burst if you're using standard SR rules (because
> you'll miss, and because you can't go above Deadly), but fire a whole load
> of six-round bursts from an automatic weapon. Either the critter takes
> lots of Deadly wounds and has to check for permanent death every time
> before it regenerates, or it'll die from having too much overflow damage.

Yep hit that ole vampire with ALOT of preferably HEAVY and EXPLOSIVE weapons
and keep pouring them on. If they have a free spirit in them though...
<shudder> they can be quite scary. Oure party had two runin's with a group
of Vampires led by one such individual. He killed some major NPC's the first
time. Second time around we got him. Two rounds of Heavy machinegun on
full auto ten rounds *2 <had two guys with gyromounts and heavy Machineguns.
One guy with an Assult Cannon. Me with a Burst fire Shotgun. Another guy
with a Sub Machine gun. Everyone that can packin Ex ammo. Two magi attacking
with elementals. The Banshi and his right hand man went down quick. He was
a bit tuffer. And his spirit was a pain. My poor physad took a swype at the
free spirit after it got loose and useing carma managed to get a grand total
of fifteen successes <all of my dice> just to hurt it and piss it off before
another free spirit cleaned it up. I DO NOT want to have to fight something
like him again. Allthough the little Vampire lackies were fairly easy for my
Physad. <I got a level one weapon foci.> So the key to dropping a vamp is
hit him hard and fast and if you can with LOTS of magic.

Grimlakin
Message no. 15
From: Gorbi <gbmaill@***.DE>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:08:54 +0100
Doc wrote:

>*Doc' wonders if, being a vampire, an immortal elf and a shapeshifter,
>he can regenerate from the effects of a nuclear blast if the guy who
>dropped the bomb doesn't roll a one on his d6?*
>

I know a group where a troll with a very high body rating survived a nuclear
blast. The gamemaster said that it would do 50D Damage, the troll had a huge
karma pool and managed to get two successes - bingo.
Thank god they realized later that this is beyond common sense.
Thank god I never was in that group (Everyone was a 100% munchkin).

Gorbi
Message no. 16
From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:26:50 -0600
:I know a group where a troll with a very high body rating survived a
nuclear
:blast. The gamemaster said that it would do 50D Damage, the troll had a
huge
:karma pool and managed to get two successes - bingo.

<voice irony•%>Aw, shoot, he had to ROLL? ANYBODY can survive 50D
damage (if previously un-injured)- there's no overflow. Heck, if you have
a trauma damper and / or platelet factory, you can walk away on your own
two feet (after standing up- the knockdown will get yah).
<voice irony%>Seriously, 50D sounds like a secondary radius effect,
and the damage should come in multiple chunks- flash burns, then
shockwave, then resulting crushing from building, then fires, then
radiation sickness, etc. That would kill most people BTB, but some could
survive. Your GM was just being lame in assigning the damage a single
code.

Mongoose
Message no. 17
From: Blackadder <blkadder@****.NET>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:17:01 -0500
I keep seeing all these massive artillery pieces and blockbuster
explosives being used to take down vamps that regenerate, and it's
almost got me on the point of tears [of laughter]. If I saw a herd of
PCs coming at me with all that crap, I'd just sic a bunch of H.E.T.'s
[highly Expendable Thugs] on 'em to make 'em waste all that ammo, then
kill 'em at my leisure.....if I both to show up at all, and not just
hire someone else to do it.
Haven't you guys seen all those millions of vampire films. I mean
even Hercules The Legendary Journeys tackled the problem. Find out
what the creature you're fighting weaknesses are. [Oooh, actual
research. most gun bunnies won't go for that. A few didn't in my game,
at least until I handed a couple of them their heads, literally.].
Once you discover that, retool your weapons around them. For
vamps, a crossbow that fires wooden shafts. Flechette shotgun rounds
with slivers of teak.
For those allergic to silver, silver hollowtip rounds filled
with silver nitrate.
And then there's fire. Good old all purpose fire, which tends to
work on anything [and the things it isn't able to hurt, you shouldn't
be screwing with anyway ;-}. Once the target's down, apply a little
flame, to either keep it from regenerating, or simply immolate the guy
with a little flamable liquid. Once they're down, then you can
decapitate them....if you can.
Always keep in mind, shadowrunners tend to destroy massive
amounts of property and bring lots of heat down on themselves, so go
for the more quieter, concentrated approach. Keep in mind, most beings
that regenerate know how vulnerable to certain things, and in games I
run, then tend to prepare to cover themselves.
Fighter smarter, not harder.

The BlackAdder !!!
Message no. 18
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:24:13 +1000
On the subject of vampire weakness, I intend to run an SR game about a group
of vampires inspired by Terry Pratchett's "Carpe Jugulum"...

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

F
O
R

T
H
O
S
E

O
F

you who haven't read the book yet (if that wasn't enough, then TOUGH!)

The vampires in that book have determined that most, if not all, of the
traditional vampire weaknesses are psychosomatic in nature, and have managed
to overcome them. Until, that is, they tangle with Granny Weatherwax...

So, imagine if you will, a vampire who thinks that alcohol, while not being
as nice as blood, is a pleasant drink to imbime on a cold night, that garlic
is merely a good topping on pizza, and that a stake through the heart is
merely an inconvienence to be removed. Pleasant dreams, people...

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 19
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:31:31 EST
In a message dated 1/11/1999 12:54:04 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
remo@***.NET writes:

> >Okay, who can see where I'm going with this? *Evil GM grin*
>
> Same place some of us have already been. It would, of course, be good
> if this were actually written down someplace by the guys who write the
> rules...but let's not go there. <g>
>
> >Second of all, I would say that, as a form of magical healing,
> >regeneration does NOT work on physical drain.
>
> Preach it, brother.

Give me a couple days (end of the week?) and I'll repost the regen rules that
we use here as an option to give to your GM Malcom. They do work, and as
everyone else (nearly everyone anyway) has shown, especially Patrick and Doc
(at least up to this point in my mail reading), it really is a matter of how
well the group/GM wants to play the situation and/or the N/PC's in question.

-K
Message no. 20
From: Blackadder <blkadder@****.NET>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:57:23 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>


|On the subject of vampire weakness, I intend to run an SR game about
a group
|of vampires inspired by Terry Pratchett's "Carpe Jugulum"...
|
|S
|P
|O
|I
|L
|E
|R


-----BlackAdder Added-----
I like it!@ Keep those pesky players off guard <evil grin>
Message no. 21
From: Steve Collins <einan@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:19:26 -0500
On 1/11/99 10:44 AM, David Buehrer said:

>For the mere cost of a Thaum, Malcolm Shaw wrote:
>/
>/ Malcolm - a bewildered PC who is starting to hate shapeshifters with a
>/ vengeance - If only I could find a way to kill them
>
>Everyone else has covered the general interpretation of the Regen rules, so
>I'll skip that :)
>
>How do you kill a regenerator?
>
>Knock them out, then sever their spine or blow their brains out. There
>are a variety of weapons in SR that cause stun damage.
>
>Use restraints. Net guns work well. Pinning them against a building
>with your car will also do the trick. Then you can slice and dice at
>your leisure.
>
>Anti-vehicle weapons. If the overflow is enough to kill them
>instantly, their regeneration can't help them.
>
>Screw with their heads. Illusion spells work well for this. Get them
>so distracted that they're easy to hit and they can't fight back. It
>may take awhile, but you'll get past their regeneration eventually.
>

Or the two things that nothing regen's from. A substance to which the
being has a Vulnerability to (Wood for Vamps, Silver for Shapers, Iron
for Wendigo, etc.) and high force Weapon Foci (anything over 4 will
work). A creature cannot regen damage inflicted by it's Vulnerability and
if a Weapon Focus pushes the damage to or over Deadly then the creature
must make an Essense test against 2X the force of the Foci, if he gets no
successes then he doesn't het to check if he regen's he's just dead. Also
in the original case the shapers would have been dead many times over for
reasons others have pointed out.
Message no. 22
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:16:59 -0600
On Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:17:01 -0500 Blackadder <blkadder@****.NET> writes:
> I keep seeing all these massive artillery pieces and blockbuster
>explosives being used to take down vamps that regenerate, and it's
>almost got me on the point of tears [of laughter].
<SNIP>
> Haven't you guys seen all those millions of vampire films. I mean
>even Hercules The Legendary Journeys tackled the problem. Find out
>what the creature you're fighting weaknesses are.
<SNIP>
> Once you discover that, retool your weapons around them.
<SNIP>

I think you need to take another look at the regeneration rules ...
Vulnerbilities and Allergies don't prevent regeneration ... Instead, it
does more damage (which is regenerated at the normal speed). In short
what you need is excessive damage and exploiting vulnerabilites is one
way to do it but is not the end-all solution you make it out to be ...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"We called him Mother Superior because of the length of his habit" --
Trainspotting
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

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Message no. 23
From: Joshua Mumme <Grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:40:33 -0600
Blackadder wrote:

> I keep seeing all these massive artillery pieces and blockbuster
> explosives being used to take down vamps that regenerate, and it's
> almost got me on the point of tears [of laughter]. If I saw a herd of
> PCs coming at me with all that crap, I'd just sic a bunch of H.E.T.'s
> [highly Expendable Thugs] on 'em to make 'em waste all that ammo, then
> kill 'em at my leisure.....if I both to show up at all, and not just
> hire someone else to do it.

Well you have some very valid points. But think of this. You don't have
time to go out and do that. B the Vampire is MORE than capeable of
physically kicking your Booty. C you allready had a major tado with the
majority of his lackies and you wasted many of them. D this guy was
cockey... and well more than valid in being so. We did what we could.
EX explosive ammo. No time to go out to the local Vampire Hunters
extrordinair <and we don't know of any> to get silver caseless ammo <that
is useless in oure game only silver ammo would be cased.> And did I
mention no time? We did what we could with what we could. Uhhh...
Nice rant though and it makes sense if you have the time to gather what
you need. Might nota been directed at me but I assume most GM's are not
as gracious as oures to let us prepare oureselves for the upcomeing
situation.

<WAY HUGE SNIP>

> The BlackAdder !!!

Grimlakin
"Gee you sure are unprepared for vampires.
Well I was SUPPOSED to be fighting Vechicles not Vampires!"
Message no. 24
From: Blackadder <blkadder@****.NET>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:43:21 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Joshua Mumme <Grimlakin@**********.COM>

|you need. Might nota been directed at me but I assume most GM's
are not
|as gracious as oures to let us prepare oureselves for the upcomeing
|situation.


-----BlackAdder Added-----
Nah, I wasn't directin' my comments at you, just wanted to get
across the point a scapel sometimes gets the job done better than a
sledgehammer. Sometimes things come at you so fast, you don't have
time to prepare. So you haveta be flexible and go with the flow.
And that I believe vampires and the like should be played to the
fullest of their intelligence [or lack thereof] and capabilities. I
really hate stupid 2 dimensional villians [unless I'm running a for
laughs session.....I had one vampire act like George Hamilton from
that movie], and that before they became vampires they were people
with all the complexities and mental baggage that entails. If they
were highly devious and cunning before they crossed over, they
shouldn't just 'dumb down' to become PC cannon fodder. If the PCs
don't really have to work to kill the bad guy, what the point in
playing.
And if they were mindless thugs before becoming vampires, after
the change they wouldn't have auired an epiphany of thought, though
they might wise up a little, eventually. It's not like they don't have
the time. If they play it smart that is.
What I'm trying to say is not to just throw 2 simensional
villians [again unless it's a stress relieving for laughs session] at
your gamers all the time. So when the players outsmart/outfight their
opponents, they can really feel like they've accomplished
something.....

Just my two pence.....

The BlackAdder !!!
Message no. 25
From: Blackadder <blkadder@****.NET>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:02:51 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: D. Ghost <dghost@****.COM>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET |
|I think you need to take another look at the regeneration rules ...
|Vulnerbilities and Allergies don't prevent regeneration ... Instead,
it
|does more damage (which is regenerated at the normal speed). In
short
|what you need is excessive damage and exploiting vulnerabilites is
one
|way to do it but is not the end-all solution you make it out to be

----BlackAdder Added-----
I never meant to imply that it was. But it seemed from this
thread that block devestating wrecking equipment was the only thing
capable of taking out a regenerating charafcter.
As for those vulnerabilities, consider that a regenerating
character isn't able to rrecover from some object he has an
allergy/vulnerability to, say a wooden stake in his side, the PCs keep
hammering at him, not giving him a chance to extract it, and repair
the damage.
To quote the effects of severe and extreme allergic reactions :

Severe: In addition to the effects of a mild allergy, the allergen's
touch is PAINFUL to the creature, often forcing it to retreat from the
substance......

extreme: In addition to the effects noted for a Severe allergy, the
SLIGHTEST contact with the allergen causes extrreme discomfort and
physical harm. ANY contact with weapoins made of the substance causes
an AUTOMATIC Light Wound , in addition to any other damage suffered
under normal combat rules [Imagine manicles of silver for holding a
werecreature or the like. As long aas their in contact with the
creature, he wouldn't be able to regenerate One point of damage, and
would be in constant pain, which would push all his target numbers up
to do anything else.]

I'm just not one for the 'megadamage attack variation.....but
when I am the kid gloves are off <very evil grin>.
Message no. 26
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:40:54 -0600
On Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:02:51 -0500 Blackadder <blkadder@****.NET> writes:
<SNIP>
>[Imagine manicles of silver for holding a
>werecreature or the like. As long aas their in contact with the
>creature, he wouldn't be able to regenerate One point of damage, and
>would be in constant pain, which would push all his target numbers up
>to do anything else.]
<SNIP>

Where does it say that the being does not regenerate? the being takes an
automatic light wound, regenerates, takes another light wound,
regenerates, etc. Net effect? the being has "constant" light wound.
You're going to need more than that to kill vampires, and
shapeshifters...

I did forget about the weapon focus, though so thanks for reminding me.
:)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"We called him Mother Superior because of the length of his habit" --
Trainspotting
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 27
From: Gorbi <gbmaill@***.DE>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:23:27 +0100
"D. Ghost" wrote:

>>[Imagine manicles of silver for holding a
>>werecreature or the like. As long aas their in contact with the
>>creature, he wouldn't be able to regenerate One point of damage, and
>>would be in constant pain, which would push all his target numbers up
>>to do anything else.]
><SNIP>
>
>Where does it say that the being does not regenerate? the being takes an
>automatic light wound, regenerates, takes another light wound,
>regenerates, etc. Net effect? the being has "constant" light wound.
>You're going to need more than that to kill vampires, and
>shapeshifters...

Well, let's say, every silver bullet that sticks in the body of the regen
creature causes a light wound. Fire 10 bullets and it's gone. Well, in
theory. There must be sume kind of rule to determine if the bullet remains
in the body or not. Maybe flechette ammo? Can anyone tell us about how
bullets go through bodies in real life?

Gorbi
Message no. 28
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:41:28 -0600
On Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:23:27 +0100 Gorbi <gbmaill@***.DE> writes:
<SNIP>
>Well, let's say, every silver bullet that sticks in the body of the
regen
>creature causes a light wound. Fire 10 bullets and it's gone. Well, in
>theory.
<SNIP>

If standing in the sunshine counts as one allergic reaction even though
it covers all of the being's (exposed) body, why would several bullets
count as multiple reactions when collectively they are in contact with a
very small percentage of the being's body ...

IMO, if you shoot a Shapeshifter with 10 silver bullets (that stay in),
that is ten silver bullets that the Shapeshifter has to remove before the
single Light wound will stay gone. Besides, if a Shapeshifter
automaticly rejects cyberware, why wouldn't the shaper expell the bullets
as well? Additionally, ten light wounds does not a dead shaper make...
When the Shaper hits deadly, he/she/it makes a check for regeneration as
normal (same as if any other attack had brought it to deadly...).

I don't really have much experience with allergies so anybody else who
does: feel free to discuss the extremes of allergic reations in respect
to how the quantity of the trigger affects the severity. :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"We called him Mother Superior because of the length of his habit" --
Trainspotting
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 29
From: barbie@********.DE
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:28:28 +0100
Malcolm Shaw wrote:
>
> If this message is a bit long please bear with me as I think I have a
> legitimate gripe.

[Snip ]

I use following rules for regenerating characters in mz game, so far
they have proven
usefull and not to unbalancing.

Regeneration
Regeneration is handled as follows, this regeneration rules are in
use for
both NPC and PC shifters and all other critters with Regeneration as
power. If
this power works different in a particular case it will be noted in the
corresponding rules. Any physical wound not caused by drain from
magical
activities, IE. spells and conjuring, will heal over the duration of
one combat
turn. Note that this is different from standard FASA regeneration rules
in which
the wound will be healed at the end of the present turn. Under this
rules the
wound will be healed at the end of the next turn. Physical drain from
magical
activities will heal at the rate of one box per minute. This reflects
the fact
that the regeneration power is based on the mana flow and that the mana
flow
will be disrupted by the high drain for some time. Wounds from
vulnerability
targeting weapons will heal at the same rate as wounds from drain, for
the same
reason, disruption of the mana flow. If the overflow damage is greater
then the
maximal possible overflow, death will occur, regeneration has its limits
too.
To see if a wound will heal roll 1d6, at a result of 1 the wound will
not heal,
or with massive wounds from fire, explosions and so a roll of 1-2
indicates a
not healing wound.

Note1: Stun damage is not effected by the regeneration power.
Note2: Karma pool use for this roll is possible, but karma pool points
so used
are permanently gone, burned.
Note3: A magical active being with regeneration must check each time a
deadly
wound is received for magic lost, regeneration will not help to prevent
this.


--Barbie who is sending her first mail with Netscape from her new Sparc
:)
Message no. 30
From: Brian Moore <airionis@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:09:43 -0800
Sorry for the late reply, but I've been busy...

---Malcolm Shaw <malhms@*********.COM.AU> wrote:
>
> If this message is a bit long please bear with me as I think I have a
> legitimate gripe.
>
> One of our SR nights included a face off with three regenerating
> characters.

[ Snip combat scene where the opponents regenerate from death several
time, along with comments about regenerating from drain...]

As some others have said, regeneration does not cure damage from drain.
Also as others have said, the problem is with your GM. Regeneration as
he runs it is too powerful for a normal game. You have a few options...
Talk to your GM and get him to make things more reasonable (change the
game), make up a shapeshifter PC youself (join the game), quit the game,
or put up with it. I recommend the first. Once your GM has fully read
all of the applicable rules, you'll probably find that regenerators
aren't quite so bad.

But there's always the theory: If you can't beat them, join them. Make
a shapeshifter mage yourself and abuse the rules as much as everyone
else. Hopefully that will make the problem obvious to everyone, and
your group will decide on a better way to handle things.

Along the same lines, take a look at the Transform spell in the
Grimoire. It has a target of Willpower, but it isn't resisted. You can
turn almost anything into any normal critter with a single success.
Someone once complained that their GM used this spell against them and
it wasn't fair. My response was to use the spell right back. The GM
will soon see that the spell really should be resisted, and the problem
goes away. "Turnabout is fair play." Also, "Do unto others as you
would have them do unto you." Use your GM's tricks against him. (And
for you GMs out there, use your player's tricks against them.)
==

_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 31
From: Erio Chrome <eriochrome@****.COM>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:58:07 -0600
Brian Moore <airionis@*****.COM> writes:
<snip>
>Along the same lines, take a look at the Transform spell in the
>Grimoire. It has a target of Willpower, but it isn't resisted. You
>can turn almost anything into any normal critter with a single success.
>Someone once complained that their GM used this spell against them and
>it wasn't fair. My response was to use the spell right back. The GM
>will soon see that the spell really should be resisted, and the
<snip>

That's got to be an erratta. Is there an official Grim. erratta
somewhere?
To quote the Grim:
"Spells that affect a character adversely, i.e., in a way that
operates against that character's purposes and would impose an effect
that would be actively opposed if the target knew of the spell, MUST BE
RESISTED" (Emphasis mine, Grimoire p. 118).

I never noticed that little mistake, and I really like the Transform
spell.....
ErioChrome

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Message no. 32
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:07:58 -0600
On Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:09:43 -0800 Brian Moore <airionis@*****.COM>
writes:
<SNIP>
>Along the same lines, take a look at the Transform spell in the
>Grimoire. It has a target of Willpower, but it isn't resisted.
<SNIP>

I mentioned that to Steve Kenson and he said (IIRC) that he thought it
should be resisted. Taking that into consideration, hopefully it will be
corrected in MitS.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"We called him Mother Superior because of the length of his habit" --
Trainspotting
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
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Message no. 33
From: barbie@********.DE
Subject: Re: How do you kill them?
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:09:52 +0100
"D. Ghost" wrote:

> >Along the same lines, take a look at the Transform spell in the
> >Grimoire. It has a target of Willpower, but it isn't resisted.
> <SNIP>
>
> I mentioned that to Steve Kenson and he said (IIRC) that he thought it
> should be resisted. Taking that into consideration, hopefully it will be
> corrected in MitS.

I remeber this topic from last year. Yes it has to be resisted, you can
figure this
out by yourself when you look at the soell creation rules in the
Grimoire2.
Its clearly state that all such (manipulation)spells have to be
resisted.

--Barbie

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