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Message no. 1
From: Joshua Mumme Grimlakin@****.com
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 04:06:49 -0500
I think most shadowrunners would fall into the title of Vigilantee
sometimes. I have heard that their are some out their that do their runs..
then during downtime play BatMan. And that is pretty cool if you ask me.
But what I really want to know is how many players out their have characters
that make it a point to help others when the oppritunity arises? Right now
I am only playing one SR character.

Blade the PhysAD. He helps by sponsoring <more or less> a boys/girls club.
A place for inner city children to go to play games learn and become better
people.

Just curious who else out their has good guy shadowrunners. :)


Josh
Message no. 2
From: Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 11:42:38 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: Joshua Mumme <Grimlakin@****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 04 June 1999 11:08
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?


>I think most shadowrunners would fall into the title of Vigilantee
>sometimes. I have heard that their are some out their that do their
runs..
>then during downtime play BatMan. And that is pretty cool if you ask
me.
>But what I really want to know is how many players out their have
characters
>that make it a point to help others when the oppritunity arises?
Right now
>I am only playing one SR character.

<snip Blade, friend to children>

>Just curious who else out their has good guy shadowrunners. :)

I see shadowrunners as criminals. Any exceptions are just that.
People who live outside the system, breaking laws left and right to
get what
they want or need, are criminals. I'm not saying that there may not be
some altruistic motives from time to time.

It just seems to me that the game was set up that way from day one.
Sure the Megas are the bad guys and the runners the Robin Hoods biting
at their ankles, but hey Robin was a criminal too.
Message no. 3
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*********.html.com
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 19:57:18 +1000
>I see shadowrunners as criminals. Any exceptions are just that.
>People who live outside the system, breaking laws left and right to
>get what they want or need, are criminals. I'm not saying that there may
not be
>some altruistic motives from time to time.

Indeed. The Shadowrunner with a noble reason for running is a common theme,
but not necessarily a very plausible one. The main reason people turn to
crime is, let's face it, money. Crime on a sensible scale carries definite
risks, but the rewards are there if you get away with it. The prevalence of
Shadowrunners who live the way they do because of some moral imperative or
burning idealism is, I think, a bit unrealistic.


Lady Jestyr

It might look like I'm doing | * Shadowrun Webring Ringmaster
nothing, but at the cellular | * Hibernator Extraordinaire
level I'm really quite busy. | * All-Around Superhero(TM)

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr *
Message no. 4
From: Cybertroll cybertroll@******.crosswinds.net
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 12:59:54 +0300
Joshua Mumme wrote:
>
> I think most shadowrunners would fall into the title of Vigilantee
> sometimes. I have heard that their are some out their that do their runs..
> then during downtime play BatMan. And that is pretty cool if you ask me.
> But what I really want to know is how many players out their have characters
> that make it a point to help others when the oppritunity arises? Right now
> I am only playing one SR character.
>
> Blade the PhysAD. He helps by sponsoring <more or less> a boys/girls club.
> A place for inner city children to go to play games learn and become better
> people.
>
> Just curious who else out their has good guy shadowrunners. :)
>
> Josh

Come on are there really any Hero Runners out there?
The runners are criminals. Most of them do what they do for the money or
just for the love for action. They steal, they kill and most of the
times they work for the ones that offer them the highest ammount. How
many of you do this to be a hero? I don't. Ok I will choose whom I will
work for (I would never do a run for the Aztecs), but I will do the job
only if the money are good.

Cybertroll

--
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Message no. 5
From: Kama kama@*******.net
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 10:02:08 -0400 (EDT)
On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Joshua Mumme wrote:

> I think most shadowrunners would fall into the title of Vigilantee
> sometimes. I have heard that their are some out their that do their runs..
> then during downtime play BatMan. And that is pretty cool if you ask me.
> But what I really want to know is how many players out their have characters
> that make it a point to help others when the oppritunity arises? Right now
> I am only playing one SR character.
>
> Blade the PhysAD. He helps by sponsoring <more or less> a boys/girls club.
> A place for inner city children to go to play games learn and become better
> people.
>
> Just curious who else out their has good guy shadowrunners. :)
>
>
We do. One of the other member so the group keeps refering to us as
"self-sacrificing martyrs in the cause of good". Of course that individual
had his too powerful character retire by donating his money to endow a
series of soup kitchens in Seattle, and then spending the rest on
smuggling food, medicine, and a group of shadowrunners into Chicago to
help the residents and kill bugs. (He had achieved his goals of providing
for his family and after Harlequin's returnwantd to devote his life to
ending a greater menace.)

My character started out as a street puck out for what she and her gang
could get. However, she always identified with the gang as her "family" as
a result she is now second in command of the gang and has set up
mentorship programs for gang members (learn from an experienced runner
before you try it on your own), schools (brians and brawn will get you
farhter than brawn alone), a health care program (money invested into
buying a setting up a treet doc can pay back quickly in an emergency) as
well as scholarship funds (if we can raise and train our own Doc, Mages,
etc. we don't have to pay for outside talent). From her point of view it
all makes good business sense - maximizng her resources. For many others -
well, her husband will be running for office in part based on thier
"revitalization" of this desperatly poor neighborhood.


Kama
Keeper of the Dice Bag from Hell(tm)
Message no. 6
From: Kismet kismet_sr@*****.com
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:43:46 -0700 (PDT)
--- Joshua Mumme <Grimlakin@****.com> wrote:
> I think most shadowrunners would fall into the title
> of Vigilantee
> sometimes. I have heard that their are some out
> their that do their runs..
> then during downtime play BatMan. And that is
> pretty cool if you ask me.
> But what I really want to know is how many players
> out their have characters
> that make it a point to help others when the
> oppritunity arises?

Our characters aren't heroes per se. We played Marvel
extensively before finding Shadowrun, so we have a few
carryovers. For the most part we play Shadowrun as it
should be(dark and gritty). The characters are
criminals and have to steal and such to survive. With
the following exceptions: Virtually none of our
characters will do wet work. I think this is an
ingrained reaction. In Marvel you lose all Karma if
you kill. 2) The characters we play are almost always
compassionate. If they were to see a Humanis gang
attempting to rape an orc girl, they would intervene.
That's just the way we play it.

Kismet

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Message no. 7
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 17:41:44 +0100
In article <004501beae69$941732e0$296b0018@*******.tx.home.com>,
Joshua Mumme <Grimlakin@****.com> writes
>Blade the PhysAD. He helps by sponsoring <more or less> a boys/girls club.
>A place for inner city children to go to play games learn and become better
>people.
>
>Just curious who else out their has good guy shadowrunners. :)

Varies. I've had characters who were fairly decent guys (an ex-cop PI, for
instance), all the way down to one who was a serial killer in his spare
time...

One thing I have found is that being a "good guy" in the right place with
the right people can actually be very useful. Nothing like being on good
terms with most of the people on your street, when someone's looking for
you. Better still when some bad guy wants to sit on a rooftop to snipe
you, and one of the locals tips you off...

Not altruism, just pragmatism.


In general, though, it's hard for shadowrunners - who make their living
stealing, blowing things up or kidnapping people, and maiming or killing
anyone who gets in their way - to be particularly lovable individuals.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 8
From: Josh grimlakin@****.com
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 12:27:38 -0500
Lady Jestyr wrote:

> >I see shadowrunners as criminals. Any exceptions are just that.
> >People who live outside the system, breaking laws left and right to
> >get what they want or need, are criminals. I'm not saying that there may
> not be
> >some altruistic motives from time to time.
>
> Indeed. The Shadowrunner with a noble reason for running is a common theme,
> but not necessarily a very plausible one. The main reason people turn to
> crime is, let's face it, money. Crime on a sensible scale carries definite
> risks, but the rewards are there if you get away with it. The prevalence of
> Shadowrunners who live the way they do because of some moral imperative or
> burning idealism is, I think, a bit unrealistic.

Well I must say for ME that is what makes the game more worthwile. If their
wasn't something good I could do with what I had gathered <moneterily or
otherwise> then what would be the point? I guess I am a rare person to
actually think that way. Sure Shadowrunners are criminals. But criminals with
a heart.

> Lady Jestyr

Grimlakin
Message no. 9
From: Josh grimlakin@****.com
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 12:34:31 -0500
Cybertroll wrote:

> Come on are there really any Hero Runners out there?
> The runners are criminals. Most of them do what they do for the money or
> just for the love for action. They steal, they kill and most of the
> times they work for the ones that offer them the highest ammount. How
> many of you do this to be a hero? I don't. Ok I will choose whom I will
> work for (I would never do a run for the Aztecs), but I will do the job
> only if the money are good.

Guess my higher standings for runners is skewed. Sure their are the
whormonergering greed driven runners out their. I was curious what the ratio of
effectively good guy runners are. <ok I might donate 10-12% of my income to good
guy things. Not the majoity by far.> Guess it is lower than what I first
throught.

>
>
> Cybertroll

BladeGrimlakin
Josh
Message no. 10
From: Lloyd Vance ljvance@*******.edu
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 11:09:24
At 12:34 PM 6/4/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>Cybertroll wrote:
>
>> Come on are there really any Hero Runners out there?
>> The runners are criminals. Most of them do what they do for the money or
>> just for the love for action. They steal, they kill and most of the
>> times they work for the ones that offer them the highest ammount. How
>> many of you do this to be a hero? I don't. Ok I will choose whom I will
>> work for (I would never do a run for the Aztecs), but I will do the job
>> only if the money are good.
>
>Guess my higher standings for runners is skewed. Sure their are the
>whormonergering greed driven runners out their. I was curious what the
ratio of
>effectively good guy runners are. <ok I might donate 10-12% of my income
to good
>guy things. Not the majoity by far.> Guess it is lower than what I first
>throught.
>
>>
>>
>> Cybertroll
>
>BladeGrimlakin
>Josh

As rulebooks go, SR has taken many changes in this area. SR1 said, in
those opening paragraphs that no one reads anymore, that shadowrunners
evened out the odds between the magacorps and the average Joes. Generally
good people going against the law to make the world a better place
(Unlawful Good for those stuck in D&D mode). At least that was my take on
it back in 1989 when I bought it. I interpreted it as this kind of general
scenario . . . 'runner gets job from johnson. runner goes on job, gets
fragged. runner goes after johnson, discovers larger conspiracy, saves the
day.' The game was set up for the shadowrunners to be good guys. I don't
remember what SR2 said, but SR3 now just calls them straight up criminals,
with a two sentence mention of the Robin Hood types.

Personally I prefer a game that has a moral vein. So does one of the GM's
I play with. But, there is something to be said to playing the bad guy. My
last few characters have been amoral or at least not very moral. You know,
someone who doesn't need Psychotropic Judas to sell out his team. And just
because I hold the record for killing the most PC's with a single action (I
believe it is eight, including myself) shouldn't be held against me!

but I digress :)

My main point is that there probably has been a decline of 'good guy'
runners because the rulebook is no longer supporting them as the main
reason for the game. With the introduction of blood magic in several
rulebooks (was NOT for PC's in London, but I don't remember seeing anything
against it in Aztlan), I don't see how anyone could expect there to be that
many 'good guys' left. Man is inherently evil (don't take that the wrong
way. I just mean that everyone wants to be 'bad' once in a while and will
be if given the chance, not that we all want to become Ted Bundy when we
grow up. And, no I'm not refering to Original Sin either.) and the
characters we create will echo those sentiments.


Magus the Fleet 'Efreet
(aka Lloyd Vance)
Message no. 11
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 13:43:43 -0500
Magus Writes:
>As rulebooks go, SR has taken many changes in this area. SR1 said, in
>those opening paragraphs that no one reads anymore, that shadowrunners
>evened out the odds between the megacorps and the average Joes. Generally
>good people going against the law to make the world a better place
>(Unlawful Good for those stuck in D&D mode). At least that was my take on
>it back in 1989 when I bought it. I interpreted it as this kind of
general
>scenario . . . 'runner gets job from johnson. runner goes on job, gets
>fragged. runner goes after johnson, discovers larger conspiracy, saves
the
>day.' The game was set up for the shadowrunners to be good guys. I don't
>remember what SR2 said, but SR3 now just calls them straight up criminals,
>with a two sentence mention of the Robin Hood types.

<Snip>

See concept of "Bad Karma", I don't remember the book it's referred to in.
Your characters an "evil" criminal... Oh you deliberately killed those
innocent people... <GM snickers...>
Message no. 12
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 12:48:30 CST
>From: "Joshua Mumme" <Grimlakin@****.com>
>I think most shadowrunners would fall into the title of Vigilantee
>sometimes. I have heard that their are some out their that do their runs..
>then during downtime play BatMan. And that is pretty cool if you ask me.
>But what I really want to know is how many players out their have
>characters
>that make it a point to help others when the oppritunity arises? Right now
>I am only playing one SR character.
>

It depends on the character. :) Most of my characters are a little like my
personality-wise, so some of the morals and ethics will apply. Most of my
characters are the type that won't specifically hunt criminals (being
criminals themselves) but will sometimes help a person in need (as long as
it doesn't involve going up against 20 troll gangers with assault rifles :)
).

>Just curious who else out their has good guy shadowrunners. :)
>

Depends on your idea of a "good guy" - remember runners are the "criminal
element :)
>
>Josh

Geoff Haacke
"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."


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Message no. 13
From: Jett zmjett@*********.com
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 23:08:24 -0400
Joshua Mumme wrote:

> I think most shadowrunners would fall into the title of Vigilantee
> sometimes. I have heard that their are some out their that do their runs..
> then during downtime play BatMan. And that is pretty cool if you ask me.
> But what I really want to know is how many players out their have characters
> that make it a point to help others when the oppritunity arises? Right now
> I am only playing one SR character.
>
> Bla

I have an ex-shadowrunner badger shaman phys mage, Faedra, who now works as a
healer and general help at a mission for street kids in Redmond...Fae hit it big
with a run, made a lot of money and so settled down to help kids on the street
(having been one herself, hoping to rescue at least a few from the life of
prostitution she wound up in).

--Jett
<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>

The new improved Shadowrun page: Shadow's Edge.
http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow/

Jett's Elfwood page
http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/zone47/artists/jesgrota/jesgrota.html


"This is the worst place in the world. You shouldn't have come here. You'll die
here."
"Stay in the best place in the world, darling, and you'll die there, too."
-Lord Fanny, to Quimper, The Invisibles
Message no. 14
From: Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 15:07:37 -0700
> From: "Joshua Mumme" <Grimlakin@****.com>
>
>
> Just curious who else out their has good guy shadowrunners. :)
>
>
> Josh

The whole team in the game I run (not the one I play in--
Winterhawk and Co. have done some good things but they're not
"good guy shadowrunners") was designed with the "good guy"
idea in mind. Their fixer was specifically looking for runners
who considered it important to help out their fellow beings,
and their runs so far have been doing just that. They don't
make a lot of money, but since their fixer has an agenda and
they're helping him to achieve it, he has lately become more
of their patron than their fixer. And they find lots of cool
toys on their runs. :)

--Rat

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
DOD#1211 1999 K1200RS - "Dunkelzahn"
"The pickles are staring at me..."
<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<
Message no. 15
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton dmcneill@************.edu
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 13:40:44 -0400
Reika didst sayeth:

< snip Joshua Mumme's question about heroic shadowrunners >

>
> Well right now in the SR game I'm in currently, there's one guy who's
> playing a Jedi who's follows the Lightside (how he does it, is beyond
> me), and my ice mage (a physical mage, or to use the correct terminology
> a Magician Adept, who specializes in ice magics) who tries to do good,
> but doesn't always succeeds.
>
I'm in the same campaign, and they're doing pretty well at being good,
despite working with an amoral cat burgler and a machiavellian sociopath who
finds their ethics mildly amusing.. For the record, I'm playing the
sociopath...and it's a lot of fun to RP someone who is ready, willing, and
able to say, do, or pretend to be pretty much anyone or anything to get what
he wants.

Case in point...we were sent to track down a Horror *insert grumbling about
ED infringing on SR* for the Draco Foundation. We did. We found it,
figured out where it came from, and got paid. And we saved a lot of lives.
And I don't think any of us wants to do it again.

But I've also walked the path of the heroic Shadowrun character in the guise
of an idealistic young ex-Marine who is far more noble than he is smart.
While he did pretty well in the game he was in, he was surrounded by other
people just as obsessively driven as he was. In the end, they got to play
terrorist in downtown Tenochtitlan in an effort to save a stolen AI. The
crusade was a lot of fun *waves to K*, but I wouldn't consider 'Goose to
have been a shadowrunner.

In my mind, 'runners are scum. The world they live in sees them that way,
and whether the individual is willing to admit it or not, being a violent
felon for hire means that no matter what you do in your spare time, you
still generate far more misery doing your day job. Trying to do the right
thing when it's convenient may help a lot of 'runners sleep at night, but
IMHO the only way they can really make the world a better place is to put a
gun in their mouth and remove the top of their head.

-Duncan
Message no. 16
From: Ken Ken@********.com
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 14:16:15 -0400
On Sunday, June 06, 1999 4:19 PM, Reika [SMTP:ladyreika@*********.com]
wrote:
>
> > Joshua Mumme wrote:
> >
> > I think most shadowrunners would fall into the title of Vigilantee
> > sometimes. I have heard that their are some out their that do their
runs..
> >then during downtime play BatMan. And that is pretty cool if you ask
me.
> > But what I really want to know is how many players out their have
characters
> > that make it a point to help others when the oppritunity arises? Right
now
> > I am only playing one SR character.
> >
> > Bla
>
> Well right now in the SR game I'm in currently, there's one guy who's
> playing a Jedi who's follows the Lightside (how he does it, is beyond
> me), and my ice mage (a physical mage, or to use the correct terminology
> a Magician Adept, who specializes in ice magics) who tries to do good,
> but doesn't always succeeds.
>
>
> Reika
>
>
I made a 2nd ed. street Sam. Made him a sniper. Took a serious hit on
other skills, etc to make him one of the best shots ever. The char concept
was that he was born a gifted shooter and lost both parents early on. he
wasn't good at anything else but shooting a rifle. He joined the Military
and became a sniper. He got out after a while still not knowing how to do
anything but shoot things so his sense of duty to his fellow man is a bit
overdeveloped (balancing some karmic scales so to speak). He does what he
does to survive, but he wont hesitate to help out someone in need. He
convinced his team to take a run for less than usual cred because it was to
help out someone. Is he a hero? It depend on your definition. Superman
he's not, more like batman but some folks think he's a hero
Message no. 17
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 13:28:21 -0500
> From: shadowrn-admin@*********.org On Behalf Of Duncan McNeill-Burton

My God. You *are* alive. Long time, no chat, Duncan. How goes it?

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 18
From: Reika ladyreika@*********.com
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 13:19:21 -0700
> Joshua Mumme wrote:
>
> I think most shadowrunners would fall into the title of Vigilantee
> sometimes. I have heard that their are some out their that do their runs..
>then during downtime play BatMan. And that is pretty cool if you ask me.
> But what I really want to know is how many players out their have characters
> that make it a point to help others when the oppritunity arises? Right now
> I am only playing one SR character.
>
> Bla

Well right now in the SR game I'm in currently, there's one guy who's
playing a Jedi who's follows the Lightside (how he does it, is beyond
me), and my ice mage (a physical mage, or to use the correct terminology
a Magician Adept, who specializes in ice magics) who tries to do good,
but doesn't always succeeds.


Reika
Message no. 19
From: Nightmare... tarot0@*******.com
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 18:21:11 CDT
Joshua Mumme wrote:

> I think most shadowrunners would fall into the title of Vigilantee
> sometimes. I have heard that their are some out their that do their
runs..
> then during downtime play BatMan. And that is pretty cool if you ask me.
> But what I really want to know is how many players out their have
characters
> that make it a point to help others when the oppritunity arises? Right
now
> I am only playing one SR character.
>
> Bla

I don't know if this would be called "heroic" or not, but my absolute
favorite character makes it a point of "permanantly neutralizing" members of
certain gangs (ex. the Night Prowlers) and certain groups (ex. Human
Policlub) when he's in a particularly bad mood and has nothing better to
take it out on. That, and he has put a dozen or so rapists (that he
accidently ran into during the act, or heard cries for help and
inxestigated, etc.) into early graves.

Heroic? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on your definition.



_______________________________________________________________
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From dmcneil
Message no. 20
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton dmcneill@************.edu
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 19:50:59 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Nightmare... <tarot0@*******.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 1999 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?


> Joshua Mumme wrote:
>
> > I think most shadowrunners would fall into the title of Vigilantee
> > sometimes. I have heard that their are some out their that do their
> runs..
> > then during downtime play BatMan. And that is pretty cool if you ask
me.
> > But what I really want to know is how many players out their have
> characters
> > that make it a point to help others when the oppritunity arises? Right
> now
> > I am only playing one SR character.
> >
> > Bla
>
> I don't know if this would be called "heroic" or not, but my absolute
> favorite character makes it a point of "permanantly neutralizing" members
of
> certain gangs (ex. the Night Prowlers) and certain groups (ex. Human
> Policlub) when he's in a particularly bad mood and has nothing better to
> take it out on. That, and he has put a dozen or so rapists (that he
> accidently ran into during the act, or heard cries for help and
> inxestigated, etc.) into early graves.
>
> Heroic? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on your definition.

Horoic? Hardly. Going out and killing random people you have philosophical
differences with to make you feel better is pretty much the same thing the
Night Stalkers and the craziest of the Humanis do. The victims of the Night
Stalkers may enjoy their short rest from persecution, and I'm sure that
anyone rescued from being molested on the street will aslo be pretty happy
with the situation. But none of this changes the fact that you're just one
more self righteous, vigilante homicidal maniac with his own agenda, which
makes him part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Oh, and if I lived in Gotham City I'd want Batman locked up for life.

-Duncan






From jhary-a
Message no. 21
From: Jhary-a-Conel jhary-a-conel@***.de
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 01:55:28 +0200
On 4 Jun 99, at 11:42, Bruce wrote:
[snip good guy shadowrunner question]
> >Just curious who else out their has good guy shadowrunners. :)
>
> I see shadowrunners as criminals. Any exceptions are just that.
> People who live outside the system, breaking laws left and right to
> get what
> they want or need, are criminals. I'm not saying that there may not be
> some altruistic motives from time to time.
I have been given to understand the mafia, and the yakuza, do "good
deeds" too, like helping out people and the like. Which of course furthers
their agenda, as they gain control.

Yeah, i agree, and see runners as criminals, too. But that doesn't mean
they have to be mean /all/ the time, and sometimes doing nice things
helps you along.

Jhary
"Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time."
- M. Ridcully -(T.Pratchett)





From tarot0@
Message no. 22
From: Nightmare... tarot0@*******.com
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 19:23:53 CDT
Duncan wrote:

But none of this changes the fact that you're just one
more self righteous, vigilante homicidal maniac with his own agenda, which
makes him part of the problem, not part of the solution.

-Duncan

=============================
Can I quote you on that? ;) Seriously, though, this is (almost to the
word), what one of this character's enemies told him. Of course, the
character we're talking about is an assassin, so he'd probably take this as
a complement.








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From adamj@*
Message no. 23
From: Nightmare... tarot0@*******.com
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 19:43:43 CDT
Jhary wrote:

Yeah, i agree, and see runners as criminals, too. But that doesn't mean
they have to be mean /all/ the time, and sometimes doing nice things helps
you along.

=====================================
By definition, shadowrunners are criminals, even the best of them. In my
campaigns, I try to keep running rap sheets of my SRs' offenses, just to
make things a bit more realistic.

Even the best of SRs are criminals. Ryan Mercury and Dirk Montgomery could,
if caught and "brought to justice", could and would be put on trial, found
guilty (if enough evidence "appeared"), and and jailed/executed (depending
on the chrage and juristiction), even though their actions literally saved
the world.

This just gos to prove a point. "Good" and "legal" are not always the
same
thing.



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From dmcneill
Message no. 24
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton dmcneill@************.edu
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 20:58:38 -0400
Nightmare didst replieth:
> Duncan wrote:
>> But none of this changes the fact that you're just one
>> more self righteous, vigilante homicidal maniac with his own agenda,
which
>> makes him part of the problem, not part of the solution.
>
> Can I quote you on that? ;) Seriously, though, this is (almost to the
> word), what one of this character's enemies told him. Of course, the
> character we're talking about is an assassin, so he'd probably take this
as
> a complement.

Feel free to quote me. Though I have to wonder why an enemy so detached
that he saw things that way didn't just put a bullet in the guy's head.
Then again, Batman always did have pompous, bombastic enemies with overly
complex plots for his demise :)

-Duncan





From remo@***
Message no. 25
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 01:30:41 -0400
Ken wrote:

> On Sunday, June 06, 1999 4:19 PM, Reika [SMTP:ladyreika@*********.com]
> wrote:
> >
> ><SNIP>
> I made a 2nd ed. street Sam. Made him a sniper. Took a serious hit on
> other skills, etc to make him one of the best shots ever. The char concept
> was that he was born a gifted shooter and lost both parents early on. he
> wasn't good at anything else but shooting a rifle. He joined the Military
> and became a sniper. He got out after a while still not knowing how to do
> anything but shoot things so his sense of duty to his fellow man is a bit
> overdeveloped (balancing some karmic scales so to speak). He does what he
> does to survive, but he wont hesitate to help out someone in need. He
> convinced his team to take a run for less than usual cred because it was to
> help out someone. Is he a hero? It depend on your definition. Superman
> he's not, more like batman but some folks think he's a hero

One of my players did something similar. But he went so far as to say that
his character would only snipe evil people. He would RESEARCH (the only time
anyone in the group did research. I hate that the character missed a Body test)
his target, and, if it met his criteria, he wouldn't hesitate to pull the
trigger.
His backstory was that he was a military sniper, who was ordered to shoot a
child (ever seen The Replacement Killers?). He was unable to bring himself to
do it, and refused. His superior pointed a gun to his head, and he killed his
superior. He then ran from the UCAS military, and became a runner. It was a
great character. Truly evil. Specialized in the Barret Model 121 (he saved up
and didn't buy a sniper rifle during chargen, didn't buy anything but a
lifestyle and armor, and then bought it during the first five minutes of game
play. I was nice, and only doubled the price ;^) ).

--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2++ !SR3 h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN++ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+) gm+
M-






From cuellare@
Message no. 26
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 11:43:16 CST
>From: "Duncan McNeill-Burton" <dmcneill@************.edu>
>Horoic? Hardly. Going out and killing random people you have
>philosophical
>differences with to make you feel better is pretty much the same thing the
>Night Stalkers and the craziest of the Humanis do. The victims of the
>Night
>Stalkers may enjoy their short rest from persecution, and I'm sure that
>anyone rescued from being molested on the street will aslo be pretty happy
>with the situation. But none of this changes the fact that you're just one
>more self righteous, vigilante homicidal maniac with his own agenda, which
>makes him part of the problem, not part of the solution.

True, but if the police can't/won't do much, then sometimes vigilantes are
neccesary. I kind of compare a lot of the SR world to the old west. Many
parts are well-protected and well-policed, and others are not. Those places
that aren't, rely on "unofficial police" for justice. That's part of the
reason that the syndicates thrive in these areas.

>
>Oh, and if I lived in Gotham City I'd want Batman locked up for life.

Until the Joker came and poisoned the city. :)

>
>-Duncan


Geoff Haacke
"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."


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From iscottw@*****.nb.ca Mon, 07
Message no. 27
From: Nightmare... tarot0@*******.com
Subject: How many Heroic Shadowrunners are their?
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 12:52:33 CDT
Duncan Wrote:

Though I have to wonder why an enemy so detached
that he saw things that way didn't just put a bullet in the guy's head.
==============
You'd might be surprised how much can be yelled during a gunfight
(especially during reloads). ;)





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From dghost@****.com Tue, 8 Jun 1999 12:41:30 -

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