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Message no. 1
From: Thomas Fa?nacht <Arkane@***********.NET>
Subject: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:18:24 +0200
I have a question about shapeshifters:
Are they aging like humans or are they aging like the animal they are
(for example: a dog reaches up to 12 years) ???

thanks
Arkane

P.S.: Sorry about spelling errors!
Message no. 2
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:15:43 -0300
Thomas Fa?nacht wrote:
>
> I have a question about shapeshifters:
> Are they aging like humans or are they aging like the animal they are
> (for example: a dog reaches up to 12 years) ???
>

I'd say they age like humans.

Ubiratan
Message no. 3
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 01:35:59 +0100
At 21-Apr-98 wrote Thomas Fa?nacht:

>I have a question about shapeshifters:
>Are they aging like humans or are they aging like the animal they are
>(for example: a dog reaches up to 12 years) ???

They age like the animal they resemble.
Unless you want to use my optional rule for shapers. In my game I have two
sub-species of shapers. Mutablis major are the real animal born ones, they use
the NPC rules and have the same live cycle as the animal and then the Mutablis
minor, born from human parents, they use the PC shaper rules from the SRC,
they have the live cycle of a human.

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:39:32 +0100
Thomas Fa?nacht said on 22:18/21 Apr 98...

> I have a question about shapeshifters:
> Are they aging like humans or are they aging like the animal they are
> (for example: a dog reaches up to 12 years) ???

Good question... I'd go for aging like humans, because otherwise most
shapeshifters tend to die rather early, from a human POV. Although their
shorter life span could be used as a device for giving the character
background: they have to learn the same stuff humans do, to fit into our
society, but have a shorter time to do it in. This could be used as an
explanation for why your shapeshifter character seems out of place in a
lot of situations, next to the "animal nature" explanation of course.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
going down thinking
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 5
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:08:11 EDT
In a message dated 4/21/98 8:29:53 PM !!!First Boot!!!, Arkane@***********.NET
writes:

> I have a question about shapeshifters:
> Are they aging like humans or are they aging like the animal they are
> (for example: a dog reaches up to 12 years) ???

Okay, this is something I have had some dealings with, and Keith even more if
he chirps in too.

When a Shaper is in (meta)human form, they age normally as per a normal
person. But if they spend an inordinate amount of time in their animal form
then their effective age will increase dramatically.

A vet once said, with regards to cats, that they age 7 cat years for every
human one up until they have been around for 7 human years, after that each
human year is approxiamtely 10 cat years. So a feline Shaper spending most of
their time in cat form will find themselves aging rather quickly (which might
be something desired if looking to change appearance somewhat).

Mike
Message no. 6
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:33:01 -0500
>
> I have a question about shapeshifters:
> Are they aging like humans or are they aging like the animal they are
> (for example: a dog reaches up to 12 years) ???
>
Ick, you know I've never thought about it. I've always treated
their aging as humans. That would add a whole new twist to things.
Of course that means I'd also have to go look up the lifespan of
quite a few creatures.....Nah....:)


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 7
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:31:05 -0600
/ > I have a question about shapeshifters:
/ > Are they aging like humans or are they aging like the animal they are
/ > (for example: a dog reaches up to 12 years) ???

I'd give them a lifespan of 40 years (roughly half of a human's average
lifespan).

-David
--
"Deus meus! Kennyum iste mortus! ..Illegitimi!"
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 8
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:34:09 -0700
----------
> From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
> Date: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 9:31 AM
>
<snip>
> "Deus meus! Kennyum iste mortus! ..Illegitimi!"

You are a sad, strange little man, and I pity you. ;)

What kind of sick soul translates, "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!
Bastards!" into Latin?
Message no. 9
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:41:17 -0400
At 10:08 AM 4/22/98 EDT, you wrote:

>When a Shaper is in (meta)human form, they age normally as per a normal
>person. But if they spend an inordinate amount of time in their animal form
>then their effective age will increase dramatically.

Interesting question. I'd say that they their lifespan is probably between
that of the animal and human. It's gotta be serious stress on the system
to shapechange, so I'd say their lifespan is somewhere between the two.

>A vet once said, with regards to cats, that they age 7 cat years for every
>human one up until they have been around for 7 human years, after that each
>human year is approxiamtely 10 cat years. So a feline Shaper spending
most of
>their time in cat form will find themselves aging rather quickly (which might
>be something desired if looking to change appearance somewhat).

Are you sure about that? A healthy house cat can live in to the early 20s
without a major problem. That would make a 20-year old house cat...179
years old in human development terms? The admittedly rare 30-year old cat
279 years old?

Don't think so.

I think those numbers should be revised.

Erik J.


"Ladies & Gentleman, the newest member of the band, the one and only Spice
Boy, GRUMPY SPICE!!!" <and the crowd goes wild!!!>
Message no. 10
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:38:03 EDT
In a message dated 4/22/98 4:39:34 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.NL writes:

> Good question... I'd go for aging like humans, because otherwise most
> shapeshifters tend to die rather early, from a human POV. Although their
> shorter life span could be used as a device for giving the character
> background: they have to learn the same stuff humans do, to fit into our
> society, but have a shorter time to do it in. This could be used as an
> explanation for why your shapeshifter character seems out of place in a
> lot of situations, next to the "animal nature" explanation of course.
>
I think I personally prefer Barbie's take on Shapers in general...the
"True/NPC types" and the "Player Types" as even being slightly
different
groups from each other. It may not be perfect, but it does help explain some
variations.

In our games, we keep track of time immensely, as we even aging spells and the
like...anyway, we keep track of things in general percentages time. "X"% of
the time you are in animal form and "Y"% of the time you are in (meta)human
form.

-K
Message no. 11
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:01:03 EDT
In a message dated 4/22/98 12:46:23 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
erikj@****.COM writes:

> Are you sure about that? A healthy house cat can live in to the early 20s
> without a major problem. That would make a 20-year old house cat...179
> years old in human development terms? The admittedly rare 30-year old cat
> 279 years old?
>
> Don't think so.
>
> I think those numbers should be revised.
>
Interestingly enough Erik, that's how it's compared to. What get's me is that
"older cats" and other animals such as Elephants and Whales, must have some
awfully imprmessive age determining factors.

Wonder if there is something in the "age factors" that is being missed.

-K
Message no. 12
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:26:24 -0500
At 10:34 AM 98-04-22 -0700, you wrote:
>----------
>> From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
>> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
>> Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
>> Date: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 9:31 AM
>>
><snip>
>> "Deus meus! Kennyum iste mortus! ..Illegitimi!"
>
>You are a sad, strange little man, and I pity you. ;)
>
>What kind of sick soul translates, "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!
>Bastards!" into Latin?
>
And he probably also plays Ars Magica ;-)

SteveD

Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 13
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:31:32 -0500
At 01:41 PM 98-04-22 -0400, you wrote:
>At 10:08 AM 4/22/98 EDT, you wrote:
>
>>When a Shaper is in (meta)human form, they age normally as per a normal
>>person. But if they spend an inordinate amount of time in their animal form
>>then their effective age will increase dramatically.
>
>Interesting question. I'd say that they their lifespan is probably between
>that of the animal and human. It's gotta be serious stress on the system
>to shapechange, so I'd say their lifespan is somewhere between the two.

So what if the shapechangers has a metahuman form. An elf shaper would
have a much longer life expectancy then a orc shaper (I don't think a Troll
shaper would be possible as a PC I don't see any shaper who's human stats
would qualify him for a troll).


>>A vet once said, with regards to cats, that they age 7 cat years for every
>>human one up until they have been around for 7 human years, after that each
>>human year is approxiamtely 10 cat years. So a feline Shaper spending
>most of
>>their time in cat form will find themselves aging rather quickly (which
might
>>be something desired if looking to change appearance somewhat).
>
>Are you sure about that? A healthy house cat can live in to the early 20s
>without a major problem. That would make a 20-year old house cat...179
>years old in human development terms? The admittedly rare 30-year old cat
>279 years old?

How would you like to be a vet in 205X. Now that would be an interesting
character.
>
>Don't think so.
>
>I think those numbers should be revised.
>
>Erik J.
>
>
>"Ladies & Gentleman, the newest member of the band, the one and only Spice
>Boy, GRUMPY SPICE!!!" <and the crowd goes wild!!!>
>
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 14
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:09:13 -0400
At 06:31 PM 4/22/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 01:41 PM 98-04-22 -0400, you wrote:
>>At 10:08 AM 4/22/98 EDT, you wrote:
>>
>>>When a Shaper is in (meta)human form, they age normally as per a normal
>>>person. But if they spend an inordinate amount of time in their animal
form
>>>then their effective age will increase dramatically.
>>
>>Interesting question. I'd say that they their lifespan is probably between
>>that of the animal and human. It's gotta be serious stress on the system
>>to shapechange, so I'd say their lifespan is somewhere between the two.
>
>So what if the shapechangers has a metahuman form. An elf shaper would
>have a much longer life expectancy then a orc shaper (I don't think a Troll
>shaper would be possible as a PC I don't see any shaper who's human stats
>would qualify him for a troll).

I don't think that shapeshifters can really be elf or orc shifters though;
they are supposed to be an entirely different metatype.

Which actually brings me to what I think the real answer is, given more
thought.

I don't think a shapeshifter's lifespan has anything to do with either the
human form it can take or the animal form it can take. Shapeshifter's
almost certainly have their own life expectancy based only on their own
metatype. What that is, we don't know. It wasn't included in the
SRCompanion. But it's obviously not short enough that it would present a
problem for shapeshifter PCs, or probably even NPCs.


>How would you like to be a vet in 205X. Now that would be an interesting
>character.

I'm not so sure I'd want to be that person. Dealing with not only normal
dogs and cats, but awakened dogs and cats and all sorts of other metatypes.

Somehow I suspect the much as with human medicine, veterinary medicine will
specialize in similar ways. You're beginning to see that now, and I don't
just mean the large animal vs. small animal practitioners. I expect that
you'd find awakened and "normal" general practitioners, surgeons who
specialize in some way, animal dentists, and so on. I mean, when you not
only have to deal with more than just dogs and cats but you also have to
deal with nearly as many techniques as in human medicine, there has to be
specialization.

And considering how much I hate to see dead animals in the road and how
much my own cat means to me, I don't think I could deal with the deaths of
animals on a daily basis. That would just suck.

Erik J.

Damn it! You call me a softie again and I'll kill you...again!
Message no. 15
From: Quantum <a.hides@*******.QUT.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:32:20 +1000
> When a Shaper is in (meta)human form, they age normally as per a normal
> person. But if they spend an inordinate amount of time in their animal form
> then their effective age will increase dramatically.

I see the logic behind this solution, but don't you think that that is
going to make things rather complicated? I mean it's not like orks or
trolls where you just have a decreased life expectancy, but you are going
to have to keep track of all the time that the character spends in animal
form. This could be a real problem if you've decided to play a
shapeshifter with an extreamly low life expectancy, such as a raven (a
character that actually works pretty well if youn want to be able to make a
getaway).

> A vet once said, with regards to cats, that they age 7 cat years for every
> human one up until they have been around for 7 human years, after that each
> human year is approxiamtely 10 cat years. So a feline Shaper spending most of
> their time in cat form will find themselves aging rather quickly (which might
> be something desired if looking to change appearance somewhat).

Ageing quickly is both good and bad - I mean, if the character from a main
campaign needs to look different 'cause someone has seen his face, it may
be useful at the time, but it's also impossible to rewind, if down the
track the character becomes a grade 7 initiate and the player doesn't want
to start with a beginning character again. I guess it really depends on
how long you are planning to use the character.
I guess I think that it complicates issues. I agree that they should
probably have a decreasesd life expectancy, and depending on how much the
time the character spends in animal form, the GM as always makes the
decision :) I don't think it's something that you should try to work out
to the nth though.

Quantum
----------------------------------------------------------------
Once I wept for I had no shoes, then I met a man with no feet.
So I took his shoes - I mean it's not like he needed them right?
----------------------------------------------------------------
hidesy@***.brisnet.org.au
n2347369@*******.qut.edu.au
Message no. 16
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:02:36 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Quantum <a.hides@*******.QUT.EDU.AU>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Thursday, 23 April 1998 12:44
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???


>I guess I think that it complicates issues. I agree that they should
>probably have a decreasesd life expectancy, and depending on how much
the
>time the character spends in animal form, the GM as always makes the
>decision :) I don't think it's something that you should try to work
out
>to the nth though.


Question though. How do people see a creature that can re-grow
internal organs in the space of seconds, dying of old age? It has a
heart attack, then it regenerates the damage, and presto, it's back up
again. About the only thing that could get it would be a brain
aneurism or something.

I don't think there is any way that such a creature could have a
shortened life span. The would live at least as long as people, and
probably longer.

Also, say hello to Quantum everyone. She's one of the players in my
campaign, and just joined the list, but decided to just jump straight
in rather than introduce herself.

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947
Message no. 17
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:27:36 -0500
----------
> From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>

> Question though. How do people see a creature that can re-grow
> internal organs in the space of seconds, dying of old age? It has a
> heart attack, then it regenerates the damage, and presto, it's back up
> again. About the only thing that could get it would be a brain
> aneurism or something.
Interesting note: That's the same principle that has kept Wolverine
alive for several hundred years. Completely unrelated note: The
Palladium Mailing List just got done discussing this same thing. I'm on 7
gaming lists, and they all seem to discuss the same things at the same
times.

> I don't think there is any way that such a creature could have a
> shortened life span. The would live at least as long as people, and
> probably longer.
To play the Devil's advocate, one could argue that all the constant
regeneration would wear out their body much more quickly, making them die
in a year or two.

> Also, say hello to Quantum everyone. She's one of the players in my
> campaign, and just joined the list, but decided to just jump straight
> in rather than introduce herself.
::bored voice:: Hello, Quantum. ::stands up:: Hello, I'm Nexx and I'm
a gaming addict. I've been playing about 8 years, and my role-playing
material is insured for more than I am.
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:43:26 +0100
NightRain said on 19:02/23 Apr 98...

> Question though. How do people see a creature that can re-grow
> internal organs in the space of seconds, dying of old age? It has a
> heart attack, then it regenerates the damage, and presto, it's back up
> again. About the only thing that could get it would be a brain
> aneurism or something.

It was my understanding that not everyone who died of old age, died from
something like a heart attack. Even if they did, a shapeshifter would
eventually die from one anyway, given enough of them (6 should usually do
it).

> I don't think there is any way that such a creature could have a
> shortened life span. The would live at least as long as people, and
> probably longer.

What exactly _do_ people die from, when they die from natural causes? If
it's the body shutting down because it says to itself "enough is enough,"
then I don't see a reason why shapeshifters should live longer than
others (either humans or the animal they come from), because they simply
die when their time is up.

> Also, say hello to Quantum everyone.

Hello to Quantum everyone.

> She's one of the players in my campaign, and just joined the list, but
> decided to just jump straight in rather than introduce herself.

So what's the problem? I did too, way back when :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
It's better to have loved and lost
Than to listen to an Olivia Newton John record
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 19
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:48:58 +0000
On 21 Apr 98 at 16:33, Lehlan Decker wrote:

> > I have a question about shapeshifters:
> > Are they aging like humans or are they aging like the animal they are
> > (for example: a dog reaches up to 12 years) ???
> >
> Ick, you know I've never thought about it. I've always treated
> their aging as humans. That would add a whole new twist to things.
> Of course that means I'd also have to go look up the lifespan of
> quite a few creatures.....Nah....:)

Well, you age because your cells are not that good anymore. Well, shapers
have regeneration, so do they age anyway?

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 20
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:00:57 -0500
>
> On 21 Apr 98 at 16:33, Lehlan Decker wrote:
>
> > > I have a question about shapeshifters:
> > > Are they aging like humans or are they aging like the animal they are
> > > (for example: a dog reaches up to 12 years) ???
> > >
> > Ick, you know I've never thought about it. I've always treated
> > their aging as humans. That would add a whole new twist to things.
> > Of course that means I'd also have to go look up the lifespan of
> > quite a few creatures.....Nah....:)
>
> Well, you age because your cells are not that good anymore. Well, shapers
> have regeneration, so do they age anyway?
>
I've seen pieces of this comment already. Vampries have regenerative
powers, and they seem to be "virtually" immortal in most legends.
Taking a classic example somebody mentioned of Wolverine and Sabertooth,
who age very very slowely due to their healing factor.
I've pretty much decided, (at least in my world), shapers age isn't
an issue. Barring accidental death, most will outlive humans, troll, etc
without a problem. (But perhaps not elves).
They aren't immortal but do age very slowely.
Next question: How many runners have died of old age in your campaign? :)
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 21
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:19:06 -0500
<snip Old age & regeneration???>

Heart disease may not be a problem for a being with magical
regeneration, but there is another thing that happens when cells divide
too much--Cancer. Cancer is essentially a "regenerating" disease.
Most of your liver might be trying to regrow into its normal state, but
there is that one piece that is trying to grow the size of a watermellon,
and according to your immune system it is "you". Regeneration wont
help at all-it may just make it faster and worse.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 22
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:47:08 -0500
>
> <snip Old age & regeneration???>
>
> Heart disease may not be a problem for a being with magical
> regeneration, but there is another thing that happens when cells divide
> too much--Cancer. Cancer is essentially a "regenerating" disease.
> Most of your liver might be trying to regrow into its normal state, but
> there is that one piece that is trying to grow the size of a watermellon,
> and according to your immune system it is "you". Regeneration wont
> help at all-it may just make it faster and worse.
>
That's one way of looking at it. Or I see it sorta like
Wolverine's Healing factor was described. (He could drink, be
poisoned or whatever, and a few minutes later his system
had neutralized it).
I figure a shaper could get cancer as easy as anybody else. However
their body would heal the damage almost instantly.
At this point we're definently in the realm of science fiction, so
I guess real life medecine etc can be ignored.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 23
From: Karl Low <kwil@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:24:25 -0600
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>


>> <snip Old age & regeneration???>
>> Cancer is essentially a "regenerating" disease.
>> Most of your liver might be trying to regrow into its normal state, but
>> there is that one piece that is trying to grow the size of a watermellon,
>> and according to your immune system it is "you". Regeneration wont
>> help at all-it may just make it faster and worse.
>>
>That's one way of looking at it. Or I see it sorta like
>Wolverine's Healing factor was described. (He could drink, be
>poisoned or whatever, and a few minutes later his system
>had neutralized it).


Completely different from the big C. Poisoning, injuries, even most diseases
are something foreign in your body. Your body recognizes it as such, fights it
off, and then gets to work repairing the damage done.

What he was saying is that Cancer is *your own cells* growing out of control.
Your body doesn't fight it, and in fact fights any treatments to "cure" it
because your body thinks it's normal. They've reached the point now where they
know that Cancer is caused by something screwing up your DNA. Now think about
the effects of this in a creature that was able to regenerate.. it's DNA is
telling the body that it's lung tissue is supposed weigh approximately 300
pounds.. so it gets to work.

Ugly. Very ugly.

Especially in 205x where pollution is rampant and hence cancer more common
than ever.

>I figure a shaper could get cancer as easy as anybody else. However
>their body would heal the damage almost instantly.

I don't agree with this. According to their body, there is no damage. It's all
perfectly normal, all systems go. That's what was being said before.


>At this point we're definently in the realm of science fiction, so
>I guess real life medecine etc can be ignored.
Rigging drones to fly with a direct-to-brain interface is science fiction, yet
we still don't ignore that such drones require power plants, wings or rotors,
and some method of steering. It all depends on how much fiction you want in
your science.

-Karl
If people devoted as much time and money to feeding the hungry as they do to
losing weight, neither problem would exist.
Message no. 24
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:25:31 -0500
>
> From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
>
<SNIP>
> Completely different from the big C. Poisoning, injuries, even most diseases
> are something foreign in your body. Your body recognizes it as such, fights it
> off, and then gets to work repairing the damage done.
>
> What he was saying is that Cancer is *your own cells* growing out of control.
> Your body doesn't fight it, and in fact fights any treatments to "cure" it
> because your body thinks it's normal. They've reached the point now where they
> know that Cancer is caused by something screwing up your DNA. Now think about
> the effects of this in a creature that was able to regenerate.. it's DNA is
> telling the body that it's lung tissue is supposed weigh approximately 300
> pounds.. so it gets to work.
>
> Ugly. Very ugly.
>
> Especially in 205x where pollution is rampant and hence cancer more common
> than ever.
>
> >I figure a shaper could get cancer as easy as anybody else. However
> >their body would heal the damage almost instantly.
>
> I don't agree with this. According to their body, there is no damage. It's all
> perfectly normal, all systems go. That's what was being said before.
>
<SNIP>
Interesting points all. (Sorry I was trying to be as abstract
as possible). Hmm..this may be a downside a GM could introduce
into Shapeshifters. (Kinda like there is a downside to MBW's).
Still putting it into number, and whether or not characters
would want to deal with this is another thing.
One possiblity, what if Shapers by virtue of them being dualnatured,magic,etc, somehow
their bodies kept an "original template" (sorta like
NT's last known good restart :)). This would explain how it
knows to reject cyberware, etc. It varies from the original
template. I'm reaching here of course.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 25
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:06:38 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
Behalf Of Karl Low
Sent: April 24, 1998 4:24 PM
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???

What he was saying is that Cancer is *your own cells* growing out of
control.
Your body doesn't fight it, and in fact fights any treatments to "cure" it
because your body thinks it's normal. They've reached the point now where
they
know that Cancer is caused by something screwing up your DNA. Now think
about
the effects of this in a creature that was able to regenerate.. it's DNA is
telling the body that it's lung tissue is supposed weigh approximately 300
pounds.. so it gets to work.

=================================
Excuse me, no offense intended, just a honestly asked question. If the DNA
is screwed up, would that itself not constitute damage that would be
repaired by the regeneration? Or rather, if there is some supernatural
healing factor at work, would it not repair damage to DNA, thereby
perventing cancer? What do you think?

Assuming that the healing factor is unable to detect and repair damage to
the DNA itself, then I would guess you would be correct. However, would you
not agree that a supernatural healing force _might_ be able to counter DNA
mutation?

Katt Freyson
ICQ UIN 3337155
Montreal, Canada
Message no. 26
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:06:52 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
Behalf Of Lehlan Decker
Sent: April 24, 1998 5:26 PM
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Interesting points all. (Sorry I was trying to be as abstract
as possible). Hmm..this may be a downside a GM could introduce
into Shapeshifters. (Kinda like there is a downside to MBW's).
Still putting it into number, and whether or not characters
would want to deal with this is another thing.
One possiblity, what if Shapers by virtue of them being
dualnatured,magic,etc, somehow their bodies kept an "original template"
(sorta like
NT's last known good restart :)). This would explain how it
knows to reject cyberware, etc. It varies from the original
template. I'm reaching here of course.
=====================
I'd say that you are reaching, but reaching isn't bad, if we never reach,
we never get anywhere. Assuming that you are correct about Shapers having a
supernatural copy of their original template, then I'd say your conclusion
would be valid. Never having read any of the rule books that deal with
these, I'd be unable to judge whether or not FASA intended this.

Of course, each G.M. can make their own decision, based on their view.
Personally, unless I am shown contradicting evidence, I'd say that your take
is valid and use that. Anything that attempts to alter a Shaper, would be
countered by the healing factor. Of course, there might be some things that
can defeat the healing factor of the Shapers. Thus there might be some
agents that can counter the regeneration and give Shapers diseases that then
become part of their templates. Does any of this make sense?

Katt Freyson
ICQ UIN 3337155
Montreal, Canada
Message no. 27
From: Karl Low <kwil@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:06:52 -0600
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>


> Excuse me, no offense intended, just a honestly asked question. If
the DNA
>is screwed up, would that itself not constitute damage that would be
>repaired by the regeneration? Or rather, if there is some supernatural
>healing factor at work, would it not repair damage to DNA, thereby
>perventing cancer? What do you think?


Yup. Like I said in my last post (ours must have crossed in the mail) I don't
think cancer (regular cancer anyway) could withstand magical healing. Again,
it depends on how much your DNA affects your astral aura, if at all.

Hence, if shapeshifters regenerate by magic, it'd take care of the cancer as
well.

If this is the case, do magically regenerating beings have any limit on their
life-span?

-Karl
Message no. 28
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:58:14 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
Behalf Of Karl Low
Sent: April 24, 1998 8:07 PM
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???


Yup. Like I said in my last post (ours must have crossed in the mail) I
don't
think cancer (regular cancer anyway) could withstand magical healing.
Again,
it depends on how much your DNA affects your astral aura, if at all.

If this is the case, do magically regenerating beings have any limit on
their
life-span?
===================================

One could borrow from the Animist doctrine to answer these two questions.
According to this doctrine, the spirit is the essential part of biological
development. What this means is that DNA does not control the body and the
soul, or aura, but the other way around. The Spirit has a template, it
creates and monitors DNA to control the body.

If, at least for the purpose of dual natured beings, we accept this
doctrine as being valid, then we have a solution for both of these
questions. Mundane cancer and equivanlent diseases would have no power, for
the spirit of these beings would contain the blueprint that their DNA
follows, ergo all DNA damage would be fixed. As for lifespan, this would be
determined by the spirit of the being, which decides how long it wishes to
be incarnate at time of birth.

Accepting this premise [and nothing says any Shadowrun GM or player must or
even should] would then stop Shapeshifters from getting cancer and from
living forever. IE: A Cat Shifter would last X years no matter what.
Though it could still be killed as per the rules].

Katt Freyson
ICQ UIN 3337155
Montreal, Canada
Message no. 29
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:44:57 -0500
At 04:25 PM 98-04-24 -0500, you wrote:
>>
s go. That's what was being said before.
>>
><SNIP>
>Interesting points all. (Sorry I was trying to be as abstract
>as possible). Hmm..this may be a downside a GM could introduce
>into Shapeshifters. (Kinda like there is a downside to MBW's).
>Still putting it into number, and whether or not characters
>would want to deal with this is another thing.
>One possiblity, what if Shapers by virtue of them being
dualnatured,magic,etc, somehow their bodies kept an "original template"
(sorta like
>NT's last known good restart :)). This would explain how it
>knows to reject cyberware, etc. It varies from the original
>template. I'm reaching here of course.

I belive all shapers have some form of astral template that allows them to
change. Unless you screwed up a shapers Aura I don't think it would be
possible for it to get cancer (it stores all of it's form data in the astral).

SteveD
>--
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
>decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
>
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 30
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 00:17:27 EDT
In a message dated 4/23/98 7:21:13 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU writes:

> Question though. How do people see a creature that can re-grow
> internal organs in the space of seconds, dying of old age? It has a
> heart attack, then it regenerates the damage, and presto, it's back up
> again. About the only thing that could get it would be a brain
> aneurism or something.

I look at it this way. It says in the rules of Regeneration that damage to
the spinal column/cranial region is FAR harder to regen. A rule we've always
considered is that the "brain matter" doesn't replenish in regular people, and
it apparently is partly excluded from the regeneration abilities as well.
Hence, no Immortality, at least not from this route.

> I don't think there is any way that such a creature could have a
> shortened life span. The would live at least as long as people, and
> probably longer.

See above for my opinion.

> Also, say hello to Quantum everyone. She's one of the players in my
> campaign, and just joined the list, but decided to just jump straight
> in rather than introduce herself.

HOWDY QUANTUM!!!

-K
Message no. 31
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 00:41:31 EDT
In a message dated 4/24/98 1:01:22 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
decker@****.FSU.EDU writes:

> Next question: How many runners have died of old age in your campaign? :)
> -
ME!!! In the original timeline (which made it as far forward as 2117),
Shivowtnoeh died back in 68 or so at about 52 years old. Shaper Tiger
(Siberian) btw...

-K
Message no. 32
From: Mark Ellis <mark@******.IDISCOVER.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:05:20 +0100
-----Original Message-----
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>

>> I don't think there is any way that such a creature could have a
>> shortened life span. The would live at least as long as people, and
>> probably longer.
> To play the Devil's advocate, one could argue that all the constant
>regeneration would wear out their body much more quickly, making them die
>in a year or two.
>


Huh, why would they be constantly regenerating ? Not every sentient creature
in the sixth world has the desire to dodge bullets every day, just the ones
we know and love the most :)

Most of the stuff thrown around on this subject is all physical, but
remember guys and girls, shapeshifters are some of the most innately magical
para's around. Their longevity could be almost anything, and I would guess
its probably quite long. Maybe we shouldn't be so worried about the IE's :).

Mark
Message no. 33
From: Mark Ellis <mark@******.IDISCOVER.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:33:52 +0100
-----Original Message-----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 24 April 1998 11:45
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???


NightRain said on 19:02/23 Apr 98...

> Question though. How do people see a creature that can re-grow
> internal organs in the space of seconds, dying of old age? It has a
> heart attack, then it regenerates the damage, and presto, it's back up
> again. About the only thing that could get it would be a brain
> aneurism or something.

It was my understanding that not everyone who died of old age, died from
something like a heart attack. Even if they did, a shapeshifter would
eventually die from one anyway, given enough of them (6 should usually do
it).

> I don't think there is any way that such a creature could have a
> shortened life span. The would live at least as long as people, and
> probably longer.

>What exactly _do_ people die from, when they die from natural causes? If
it's the body shutting down because it says to itself "enough is enough,"
then I don't see a reason why shapeshifters should live longer than
others (either humans or the animal they come from), because they simply
>die when their time is up.

There's another one that can't really be answered yet. Without getting too
technical ('cos I'll confuse myself) the latest thinking has to do with
errors creeping in to the genome (DNA) when the cells in the body have
divided a certain number of times. As an aside, there is a mechanism to
prevent this damage, but is usually inactive in adults, 'cos it tends to do
things that become cancerous. Thats pretty simplified by the way, this isn't
really my speciality. Sorry if I'm rambling, but you did ask :)

Mark
Message no. 34
From: Mark Ellis <mark@******.IDISCOVER.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:33:36 +0100
-----Original Message-----
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 25 April 1998 00:13
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???


>What he was saying is that Cancer is *your own cells* growing out of
>control.
>Your body doesn't fight it, and in fact fights any treatments to "cure" it
>because your body thinks it's normal. They've reached the point now where
>they
>know that Cancer is caused by something screwing up your DNA. Now think
>about
>the effects of this in a creature that was able to regenerate.. it's DNA is
>telling the body that it's lung tissue is supposed weigh approximately 300
>pounds.. so it gets to work.
>
>=================================
> Excuse me, no offense intended, just a honestly asked question. If
the DNA
>is screwed up, would that itself not constitute damage that would be
>repaired by the regeneration? Or rather, if there is some supernatural
>healing factor at work, would it not repair damage to DNA, thereby
>perventing cancer? What do you think?
>
> Assuming that the healing factor is unable to detect and repair
damage to
>the DNA itself, then I would guess you would be correct. However, would you
>not agree that a supernatural healing force _might_ be able to counter DNA
>mutation?
>


Once again, we're getting real life and magic a bit fuzzied. If cancer
starts, the body has missed it's only chance to prevent it without help.
As you said, regeneration is supernatural, and, as far as we know :),
fictional. So what do you think should be possible ? Personally, since it's
Saturday morning I've decided not to decide anything yet, too much like hard
work :)

Mark
Message no. 35
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:25:38 EDT
In a message dated 4/25/98 4:18:53 AM !!!First Boot!!!, nighttrain writes:

> > Also, say hello to Quantum everyone. She's one of the players in my
> > campaign, and just joined the list, but decided to just jump straight
> > in rather than introduce herself.
>

Welcome Quantum, just remember, anything you say can be used by your gm as
either blackmail material or to kill you with at a later date. Either of
which is just as dangerous and oh so very funny to toy with. Keith and I have
about 4 or 5 people (including Keith and I) on the group also.

Mike
Message no. 36
From: Jessica Grota <grota@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 14:51:35 -0400
> In a message dated 4/24/98 1:01:22 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> decker@****.FSU.EDU writes:
>
> > Next question: How many runners have died of old age in your campaign? :)



Heh...I think violent death is way more common when you're a
shadowrunner...if you're lucky enough to make it to old age, then kudos
to you. I DO know someone who created an elderly character who dropped
dead of old age (heart attack) on his first run, but technically the guy
wasn't around long enough to meet that distinction. :> I'm hoping that
the Jettster, age 20 in 2057, will be around for a long, long time to
come. Although if she makes it to 40, she'll probably fall victim to a
disorder in her genes and go blind by the time she's 50, cybereyes or
not. Yep, I plan that far ahead when I create my characters, right down
to genetics. :) But hey, I figure if it happens IRL, then it can happen
in Shadowrun, and then some.

--Jett

PS Oh yeah, that's right, I've joined the ranks of the few female
ShadowRN subscribers, so I'm under DVixen's protection. So all you guys
gotta be nice to me. :)
Message no. 37
From: scrose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:54:50 -0500
Mark Ellis wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>

>
> > I don't think there is any way that such a creature could have a
> > shortened life span. The would live at least as long as people, and
> > probably longer.

I generally despise shapeshifters and do not allow them into my games.
With that said I'll expand on the topic why I have this opinion.

> >What exactly _do_ people die from, when they die from natural causes? If
> it's the body shutting down because it says to itself "enough is enough,"
> then I don't see a reason why shapeshifters should live longer than
> others (either humans or the animal they come from), because they simply
> >die when their time is up.

In the sixth world most often and in the case of shadowrunners in
particular bullets or other violence.
The gritty world of high tech and magic that make up the sixth world is
a rather dangerous place in live.
Thing is shapeshifters are by and large ignore and/or soak up many of
the these dangers. They do not have many natural foes those they do
have. Are all to often a shifter can over powered most foes. If and you
create or use a foe which will challege a shifter you have to raise the
power levels of the game to compensate for it in other areas. Blowing
the game balance all out of wack in the process. I hear the word
shapeshifter and start looking for the little short guyswith the lolly
pops and expect to hear singing. :)
Message no. 38
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:48:58 +0100
And verily, did Katt Freyson hastily scribble thusly...
| Accepting this premise [and nothing says any Shadowrun GM or player must or
|even should] would then stop Shapeshifters from getting cancer and from
|living forever. IE: A Cat Shifter would last X years no matter what.

Or... Would it live X years nine times over?
:)

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 39
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:06:53 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
>>>>>It was my understanding that not everyone who died of old age,
died from
something like a heart attack. Even if they did, a shapeshifter would
eventually die from one anyway, given enough of them (6 should usually
do
it).<<<<<

I don't know, not if it recovered from them between attacks.

>>>>>What exactly _do_ people die from, when they die from natural
causes? If
it's the body shutting down because it says to itself "enough is
enough,"
then I don't see a reason why shapeshifters should live longer than
others (either humans or the animal they come from), because they
simply
die when their time is up.<<<<<


Well, yeah, this very well could be true.

>>>>>Hello to Quantum everyone.<<<<<

Humourous :)

>>>>>So what's the problem? I did too, way back when :)<<<<<


No problem, just letting people know.

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947
Message no. 40
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:03:53 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
>> I don't think there is any way that such a creature could have a
>> shortened life span. The would live at least as long as people,
and
>> probably longer.
> To play the Devil's advocate, one could argue that all the
constant
>regeneration would wear out their body much more quickly, making them
die
>in a year or two.


Well, maybe, but then the regeneration itself would have to wear out
as well, or they would just regenerate the stress from wearing out.

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947
Message no. 41
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:10:22 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
>I look at it this way. It says in the rules of Regeneration that
damage to
>the spinal column/cranial region is FAR harder to regen. A rule
we've always
>considered is that the "brain matter" doesn't replenish in regular
people, and
>it apparently is partly excluded from the regeneration abilities as
well.
>Hence, no Immortality, at least not from this route.


Strange thought. I just saw this image of a shaper with a perfectly
formed body, but suffering from Dementia or something.

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947
Message no. 42
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:26:58 -0500
> One possiblity, what if Shapers by virtue of them being
> dualnatured,magic,etc, somehow their bodies kept an "original template"
> (sorta like
> NT's last known good restart :)). This would explain how it
> knows to reject cyberware, etc. It varies from the original
> template. I'm reaching here of course.
> =====================
> I'd say that you are reaching, but reaching isn't bad, if we never reach,
> we never get anywhere. Assuming that you are correct about Shapers having a
> supernatural copy of their original template, then I'd say your conclusion
> would be valid. Never having read any of the rule books that deal with
> these, I'd be unable to judge whether or not FASA intended this.
>
> Of course, each G.M. can make their own decision, based on their view.
> Personally, unless I am shown contradicting evidence, I'd say that your take
> is valid and use that. Anything that attempts to alter a Shaper, would be
> countered by the healing factor. Of course, there might be some things that
> can defeat the healing factor of the Shapers. Thus there might be some
> agents that can counter the regeneration and give Shapers diseases that then
> become part of their templates. Does any of this make sense?
>
True, and that does make sense. Which opens up the ideas of special
"viruses" tailored to shapeshifter species. <EGMG>
Is it me or did the list explode this weekend?!
Hmm...another odd thought...can shapershifters get their "animal" counter
part diseases? (Distemper, Parvo, etc).
Sigh..my brain is working odd hours lately. :)
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 43
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:47:10 +0100
NightRain said on 19:06/27 Apr 98...

> >>>>>It was my understanding that not everyone who died of old age,
> died from
> something like a heart attack. Even if they did, a shapeshifter would
> eventually die from one anyway, given enough of them (6 should usually
> do
> it).<<<<<
>
> I don't know, not if it recovered from them between attacks.

What I mean is that a heart attack causes Deadly damage (see Shadowtech),
and a shapeshifter dies if a 1 is rolled on 1D6 when taking a Deadly
wound. So, 6 heart attacks should be enough to kill most regenerating
creatures -- killed by statistics, so to say :)

--
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Neighbors, let us join today in the holy love of God and money
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 44
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:54:46 -0500
>
> NightRain said on 19:06/27 Apr 98...
>
> > >>>>>It was my understanding that not everyone who died of old
age,
> > died from
> > something like a heart attack. Even if they did, a shapeshifter would
> > eventually die from one anyway, given enough of them (6 should usually
> > do
> > it).<<<<<
> >
> > I don't know, not if it recovered from them between attacks.
>
> What I mean is that a heart attack causes Deadly damage (see Shadowtech),
> and a shapeshifter dies if a 1 is rolled on 1D6 when taking a Deadly
> wound. So, 6 heart attacks should be enough to kill most regenerating
> creatures -- killed by statistics, so to say :)
>
Heh..this is the perfect time to insert a particular quote I like.:
"There are lie, damned lies, and statistics"
:)

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 45
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:46:32 EDT
In a message dated 4/27/98 6:44:25 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU writes:

> Strange thought. I just saw this image of a shaper with a perfectly
> formed body, but suffering from Dementia or something.
>
> NightRain.
>
Hey, we've had it happen. Makes it good for NPC's at least...

-K
Message no. 46
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:30:21 +0000
On 24 Apr 98 at 14:00, Lehlan Decker wrote:

> > Well, you age because your cells are not that good anymore. Well, shapers
> > have regeneration, so do they age anyway?
> >
> I've seen pieces of this comment already. Vampries have regenerative
> powers, and they seem to be "virtually" immortal in most legends.
> Taking a classic example somebody mentioned of Wolverine and Sabertooth,
> who age very very slowely due to their healing factor.
> I've pretty much decided, (at least in my world), shapers age isn't
> an issue. Barring accidental death, most will outlive humans, troll, etc
> without a problem. (But perhaps not elves).

Elves and age. Did I ever mention that in my game, elves might not
visibily age, but do so internally (I even have an explanation for this!
;)). So they usually get about 75 years old.
Yes, I dislike elves.

> They aren't immortal but do age very slowely.

....which is basically the same.

> Next question: How many runners have died of old age in your campaign? :)

In *my* game!? Few of them survived thier first month, so there....:)


Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 47
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:51:21 -0500
>
> Elves and age. Did I ever mention that in my game, elves might not
> visibily age, but do so internally (I even have an explanation for this!
> ;)). So they usually get about 75 years old.
> Yes, I dislike elves.
>
Heh..I can't wait to hear this explanation. Or is this a subject better
avoided. I enjoy elves, but they can be overrated.

> > They aren't immortal but do age very slowely.
>
> ....which is basically the same.
>
In roleplaying games, comic books, and novels, true.

> > Next question: How many runners have died of old age in your campaign? :)
>
> In *my* game!? Few of them survived thier first month, so there....:)
>
>
Heh...What's the stat, few runners make it past their first 5 runs. After
that the curve goes up quickly. Which leaves you with either newbies or
veterans, and not much inbetween.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 48
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:08:16 -0500
----------
> From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>

> Heh...What's the stat, few runners make it past their first 5 runs.
After
> that the curve goes up quickly. Which leaves you with either newbies or
> veterans, and not much inbetween.

Sounds like something out of Denver, when they're talking about T-bird
runners... once you survive a few, your chances shoot up, then drop back
down, then go way up again.
Message no. 49
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:08:32 -0500
>
> ----------
> > From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
>
> > Heh...What's the stat, few runners make it past their first 5 runs.
> After
> > that the curve goes up quickly. Which leaves you with either newbies or
> > veterans, and not much inbetween.
>
> Sounds like something out of Denver, when they're talking about T-bird
> runners... once you survive a few, your chances shoot up, then drop back
> down, then go way up again.
>
Yep, I think that is where I saw the original quote, and I would
venture to guess it applies to runners as well. (At least in my
game it does :)).


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 50
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:25:32 -0500
On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:51:21 -0500 Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
writes:
>>
>> Elves and age. Did I ever mention that in my game, elves might not
>> visibily age, but do so internally (I even have an explanation for
this!
>> ;)). So they usually get about 75 years old.
>> Yes, I dislike elves.
>>
>Heh..I can't wait to hear this explanation. Or is this a subject better
>avoided. I enjoy elves, but they can be overrated.


I dunno if this is the original poster's explanation, but possibly
*extremely* high bilirubin levels...


--
John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --South Park
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186

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Message no. 51
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:05:36 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Tuesday, 28 April 1998 4:59
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???


>>>>>>What I mean is that a heart attack causes Deadly damage (see
Shadowtech),
and a shapeshifter dies if a 1 is rolled on 1D6 when taking a Deadly
wound. So, 6 heart attacks should be enough to kill most regenerating
creatures -- killed by statistics, so to say :)<<<<<<


Yeah, but isn't that meant to represent a test to see whether or not
the damage has hit nervous tissue? If it's heart attack, then it's
all muscle. No need to see whether or not it's nervous tissue.

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947
Message no. 52
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:01:25 +0100
NightRain said on 22:05/28 Apr 98...

> Yeah, but isn't that meant to represent a test to see whether or not
> the damage has hit nervous tissue? If it's heart attack, then it's
> all muscle. No need to see whether or not it's nervous tissue.

"Massive damage to key parts of the body" according to PAoE. I'd say the
heart counts as a key part of the body, don't you think? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Neighbors, let us join today in the holy love of god and Money
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 53
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 00:16:27 +0000
On 28 Apr 98 at 14:25, John E Pederson wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:51:21 -0500 Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
> writes:
> >>
> >> Elves and age. Did I ever mention that in my game, elves might not
> >> visibily age, but do so internally (I even have an explanation for
> this!
> >> ;)). So they usually get about 75 years old.
> >> Yes, I dislike elves.
> >>
> >Heh..I can't wait to hear this explanation. Or is this a subject better
> >avoided. I enjoy elves, but they can be overrated.
>
>
> I dunno if this is the original poster's explanation, but possibly
> *extremely* high bilirubin levels...

Well, I'm the original poster. :)
My idea was based on something I've read about ageing a couple of month
ago. They said that ageing is caused by the desintegration of the
cromosomes (urgh. I hope I get half of the words right...), or more
specifically, the ends of them. I don't remember much more...
Anyway, my idea was that elfs don't show any signals of this decay, until
it's to late. Then, they seem to rapidly age (for about a month, or so) and
die.
Did I mess anything up`?

Note: My players don't know about this. I might use it as a plot-device,
sometime...:)

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45

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Message no. 54
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: How old get Shapeshifters ???
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 19:11:00 -0500
On Sat, 2 May 1998 00:16:27 +0000 Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
writes:
>On 28 Apr 98 at 14:25, John E Pederson wrote:

>> I dunno if this is the original poster's explanation, but possibly
>> *extremely* high bilirubin levels...
>
>Well, I'm the original poster. :)
>My idea was based on something I've read about ageing a couple of month
>ago. They said that ageing is caused by the desintegration of the
>cromosomes (urgh. I hope I get half of the words right...), or more
>specifically, the ends of them. I don't remember much more...
>Anyway, my idea was that elfs don't show any signals of this decay,
until
>it's to late. Then, they seem to rapidly age (for about a month, or so)
and
>die.
>Did I mess anything up`?

Not really. The ends of the chromosomes are called the telomeres. When
the cell divides, a little bit of the telomere gets cut off. While it's
believed that the information coded in the telomeres is garbage, or
evolutionary leftovers at best, the problem apprently lies in what
happens when you run out telomere -- you guessed it, useful stuff gets
lost in the mix. Apparently this may be part of the problem with cancer -
the odd mutation that produces a cancer cell may cause it to produce a
hormone called telomerin, which rebuilds the telomeres after cell
division. My info's a bit old on that, though, and I don't know what (if
any) final verdict there was.



--
John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --South Park
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186

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