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Message no. 1
From: Stefan Struck <struck@******.INFORMATIK.UNI-BONN.DE>
Subject: How to handle missiles?
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 15:29:18 +0200
Hello everybody!

How does you handle rockets/missile on long ranges? Do they hit instantly
or need they time to reach the target kind of grenades (exploding 5 turns
later)?
Just curious. I hope to see some sitution like this
Gunner: "Incoming missile, incoming missile"
Pilot : "let's shake it ..."
You know, like in the Night's pawn novel or like in StarWars whatever.
bye,
Stefan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
e-mail: struck@****.informatik.uni-bonn.de
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
...but there's nothing like having your friends show up with lots of guns.
-Frank Miller, The Big Fat Kill
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 2
From: Bryan Linn Schuler <schu1545@****.GMI.EDU>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 09:55:17 -0400
I'd say, depending on how fast your runners are moving, they got a percent
chance.

Average rocket speed, say about 400 mph.
Average missile speed, say about 2500 mph (ATA/SAM), 250-400 mph
(Smart infantry cruise missile, the ones that weave around buildings)


A missile/rocket approximatly 400mph:
Against a runner on foot, make it like dodging a bullet.
Against a runner in an Americar, give them a slight bonus if they are trying
to shake it (not if they're heading right into it.)
Against a Eurocar at high speeds, make it an even better bonus.
Against a jet, very high bonus (this is why aircraft missiles are so fast.)

Just quickly weigh in your mind the relative speed difference between the
runners and it, and adjust target number accordingly.
Always worked in our Ninjas and Superspies campaign.

-Bryan
a.k.a. Frobozz
---Frobozz of TimeWarp MUD (quark.gmi.edu 5150)
---Frobozz of Gridpoint (http://apollo.gmi.edu/~schu1545/shadowrun.html)

"He who makes a big, ugly, character who is of munchkin status, devoid
of flavor and is only concerned with high numbers shall become
cluster bomb targets!"
-Bryan's 5th law of GMing.
Message no. 3
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 18:23:51 -0400
-Bryan wrote:

>Average rocket speed, say about 400 mph.
>Average missile speed, say about 2500 mph (ATA/SAM), 250-400 mph
> (Smart infantry cruise missile, the ones that weave around
buildings)

I think your rocket speeds are a bit low. A rocket travels faster than a
missile since there is nothing to a rocket but fuel, explosive, and casing,
whereas a missile also has to have guidance equipment and control surfaces.

This brings up an interesting point...how do you dodge a missile?

You defeat a missile by forcing it to track beyond it's gimble limits. That
is, you either move outside the seeker heads ability to see you or you force
the missile to put on such a hard turn that it will overshot and fly right
past you. Now missiles today can put on some amazing turns (sorry can't tell
you the numbers) but suffice it to say that with the improvements in
materials in 205X you can not maneuver a vehicle aggressively enough to
defeat a missile and still have a living human inside that vehicle (the human
body could not withstand the G-forces required). So I hope you have damn
good ECM equipment onboard.

Duke
Message no. 4
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 16:21:19 -0700
>>>You defeat a missile by forcing it to track beyond it's gimble limits. That
is, you either move outside the seeker heads ability to see you or you force
the missile to put on such a hard turn that it will overshot and fly right
past you. Now missiles today can put on some amazing turns (sorry can't tell
you the numbers) but suffice it to say that with the improvements in
materials in 205X you can not maneuver a vehicle aggressively enough to
defeat a missile and still have a living human inside that vehicle (the human
body could not withstand the G-forces required). So I hope you have damn
good ECM equipment onboard.<<<

How about chaff?

-E
Message no. 5
From: "Andrew W. Ragland" <RAGLAN45@*****.MMC.EDU>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 20:08:00 -0500
>How about chaff?

Or intercepts? Or something with your signature but stronger to lead the
missile away?

Andrew W. Ragland |GTW @*+(-) s++/+ a c++(++++)| _ Prayer Division|
Product Support Manager |G+ y* L e* W !N o+ K w++$ M+| /\ /\ Ariadne, |
R & M BioMetrics / BioQuant|O+$ V+ +PS- +PE- Y+ PGP @*+ | |-*-| Strengthen |
raglan45@*****.mmc.edu |5@ X+ R+++>$ h---- b+++ r+++| \/_\/ The Web! |
Message no. 6
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 22:28:55 -0400
Eve wrote:

>How about chaff?


Andrew W. Ragland wrote:

>Or intercepts? Or something with your signature but stronger to lead the
>missile away?


This is all concidered ECM.

Duke
Message no. 7
From: Bryan Linn Schuler <schu1545@****.GMI.EDU>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 23:37:32 -0400
>
> >How about chaff?
>
> Or intercepts? Or something with your signature but stronger to lead the
> missile away?
>
I've always liked the new anti-missile flak pods. They spew a nice cloud of
flak tough enough to detonate the missile.

Yes, I think my estimates of rocket speeds are a little slow, but remember,
rockets are sub sonic ( < ~600 mph) but I know most air to air missiles are
capable of at least mach 4. These missiles have fairly large turning radii
though, but then again, so do jets. The slower "landcruiser" missiles can
weave through city streets and stil nail cars. That's not to say the
rigger can't pull a suprise move on the missile to trick it. Examples could
be slamming the brakes or swerving at just the right time to dodge the
missile and force it to overshoot or hit another object. Remember, missiles
are rocket powered, and even with control surfaces and guidance systems, they
can't stop on a dime. That's mostly all I know about missiles.

L8r chummers
-Bryan
Message no. 8
From: "Ceriotti, Pedro" <pceriott@******.EDU.UY>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 06:51:16 +0200
>>How about chaff?

> Or intercepts? Or something with your signature but stronger to
> lead the missile away?

Sounds like a flare, but I've heard nothing about flares in Shadowrun
(but I'm not very familiar with Shadowrun rules)
Do flares (the ones used to foil IR missiles) exist in Shadowrun?
Or were flares made obsolete by advanced missile guidance systems?
Is there any rule for chaff, flares or some decoy for missiles?

Greets!

Pedro.
Message no. 9
From: "Stephen M. Bugge" <bugge@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 22:06:08 -0700
Remember, missiles
> are rocket powered, and even with control surfaces and guidance systems, they
> can't stop on a dime.

Sounds like you could use some special GM only edition ACME/Looney Toon's
smart missiles! They can stop on a dime, <mind that you leave a dime for
them to stop on, oh yeah they are fairly easily confused if your target
happens to be a certain rabbit or roadrunner>
Message no. 10
From: Allen Versfeld <aversfel@****.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 08:29:50 +0200
On Thu, 31 Aug 1995, Eve Forward wrote:

> >>>You defeat a missile by forcing it to track beyond it's gimble limits.
That
> is, you either move outside the seeker heads ability to see you or you force
> the missile to put on such a hard turn that it will overshot and fly right
> past you. Now missiles today can put on some amazing turns (sorry can't tell
> you the numbers) but suffice it to say that with the improvements in
> materials in 205X you can not maneuver a vehicle aggressively enough to
> defeat a missile and still have a living human inside that vehicle (the human
> body could not withstand the G-forces required). So I hope you have damn
> good ECM equipment onboard.<<<
>
> How about chaff?
>
HAHA! I can just see my character now...

"WHAT?!? A missile heading for me? No problem - I reach into my pocket,
pull out the shredded tinfoil I never leave home without, and throw it in
the air ... what do you mean, 'resist'?
---------------------------
"any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
- Clarke
"any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology"
- Murphy
"any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged
demo" - unknown
aversfel@****.cs.unp.ac.za
homepage opening soon

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Message no. 11
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 17:18:02 +0930
Duke Diener wrote:
>
> You defeat a missile by forcing it to track beyond it's gimble limits. That
> is, you either move outside the seeker heads ability to see you or you force
> the missile to put on such a hard turn that it will overshot and fly right
> past you. Now missiles today can put on some amazing turns (sorry can't tell
> you the numbers) but suffice it to say that with the improvements in
> materials in 205X you can not maneuver a vehicle aggressively enough to
> defeat a missile and still have a living human inside that vehicle (the human
> body could not withstand the G-forces required). So I hope you have damn
> good ECM equipment onboard.

Hmm... there's two possibilities if you've got no ECM... you can outrun it
(maybe, if it's launched at extreme range), or you can perform a really
tight maneuver REALLY close to it, and be far enough away when it turns
around on you that you can then outrun it. This is possible, but only
occasionally, and only once... And it's certainly not MY preferred method
of not getting shot.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 12
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 17:21:21 +0930
Ceriotti, Pedro wrote:
>
> Sounds like a flare, but I've heard nothing about flares in Shadowrun
> (but I'm not very familiar with Shadowrun rules)
> Do flares (the ones used to foil IR missiles) exist in Shadowrun?
> Or were flares made obsolete by advanced missile guidance systems?
> Is there any rule for chaff, flares or some decoy for missiles?

Flares, chaffs, nixies, etc, are all part of the generalised ECM rules.

Here's the dividing lines for SR philosophy:

If it makes the weapon more likely to hit, it's called Intelligence.

If it makes the target less likely to be hit, it's called ECM.

If it counters out something that makes the target less likely to be hit,
it's called ECCM.

And if it counters out the ECCM, it's called ECCCM. No, it doesn't go any
further. Don't be ridiculous.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 13
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 17:23:52 +0930
Allen Versfeld wrote:
>
> "WHAT?!? A missile heading for me? No problem - I reach into my pocket,
> pull out the shredded tinfoil I never leave home without, and throw it in
> the air ... what do you mean, 'resist'?

Actually, it may just make the missile aim at something besides them.
However, given the likely range you could throw shredded tinfoil, that
something is probably about a meter away... oops. :)

> "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged
> demo" - <Actually, it's an "Old Programmer Saying".>

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 11:11:31 +0200
>How does you handle rockets/missile on long ranges? Do they hit instantly
>or need they time to reach the target kind of grenades (exploding 5 turns
>later)?

In Fields of Fire there is a sentence saying that all missiles and rockets
should be assumed to have a velocity of 1000 m/turn, to keep it easy on the
players. It's at the very top of page 86 (though I don't know where to look
in Kreuzfeuer, in case you've only got Frank's copy and not the English one :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 11:11:46 +0200
>>So I hope you have damn good ECM equipment onboard.
>
>How about chaff?

I had a discussion about missiles with someone else a few weeks back, his
problem was that the different Signature modifiers in the RBB were rather
confusing when a missile comes flying toward you -- do you or do you not use
the +2 Sig you installed with passive thermal masking against this or that
missile?
The RBB says missiles have "multi-seeker" warheads. I'd say this means
something like "they home on IR, laser designator, radar, and sound all at
once." How the hell do you defeat a missile like that? (Short of strapping a
Goalkeeper to the roof of your car :)
You drop chaff, the missile still locks onto your exhaust, and so on. My
ruling would be that "ECM" simply covers all available means of defeating
missiles -- chaff, flares, RAM, active jamming, etc. etc.
Of course the answer is that it's simply the easy way out for FASA... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 11:11:53 +0200
>Hmm... there's two possibilities if you've got no ECM... you can outrun it
>(maybe, if it's launched at extreme range)

Easier said than done... You have to know the missile is on its way just to
try and outrun it...
Which is the hardest part of actually evading a missile. It may take 20
seconds to reach you, but as long as you don't know it's coming you won't
try and evade it (as I'm always trying to tell my new-found players...)

>or you can perform a really
>tight maneuver REALLY close to it, and be far enough away when it turns
>around on you that you can then outrun it. This is possible, but only
>occasionally, and only once...

This would also be possible, if you again know the missile is coming, and
have both the nerves and reflexes to wait for it to just about strike... And
even then, I'd guess only aircraft would be fast enough to try this sort of
stunt (though on second thoughts... they're probably not maneuverable
enough. Helicopters would probably be your best bet :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 11:11:56 +0200
>> "WHAT?!? A missile heading for me? No problem - I reach into my pocket,
>> pull out the shredded tinfoil I never leave home without, and throw it in
>> the air ... what do you mean, 'resist'?
>
>Actually, it may just make the missile aim at something besides them.
>However, given the likely range you could throw shredded tinfoil, that
>something is probably about a meter away... oops. :)

It might just work -- a missile with an impact fuse would fly through the
tinfoil and miss the character (though you'd likely get burned because of
the missile's exhaust at the very least :).
A proximity-fused missile OTOH will blow up no matter what when it gets
close enough to the target...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 18
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 18:54:12 +0930
Gurth wrote:
> It might just work -- a missile with an impact fuse would fly through the
> tinfoil and miss the character (though you'd likely get burned because of
> the missile's exhaust at the very least :).
> A proximity-fused missile OTOH will blow up no matter what when it gets
> close enough to the target...

Aren't all radar-guided missiles proximity fused?

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 19
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 05:01:25 -0700
>This is all concidered ECM.<


Well that's LAME. Why not just have "A gun" and they're all the same?? It
would be a matter of tactics when to use which, since some would be
better than others but might make you more obvious to more lock-ons, etc.
Adam, you have to write that dern book.... :)

(oops, "would" should be "should")

-E
Message no. 20
From: Matt Hufstetler <gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 08:42:04 -0400
> This would also be possible, if you again know the missile is coming, and
> have both the nerves and reflexes to wait for it to just about strike... And
> even then, I'd guess only aircraft would be fast enough to try this sort of
> stunt (though on second thoughts... they're probably not maneuverable
> enough. Helicopters would probably be your best bet :)

Cobra Pilots in 'Nam had to do this a lot. Unfortunately, the proximity
blasts will still kill a chopper no problem.

Matt 'Comatose Raspberry' Hufstetler
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt2778a
Internet: gt2778a@*****.gatech.edu
Message no. 21
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 21:20:40 +0200
>Aren't all radar-guided missiles proximity fused?

Well, usually, I think they are. I'd guess most also have an impact fuse for
back-up, in case the proximity fuse somehow fails. Plus a timed
self-destruct, most likely.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 21:20:47 +0200
>Cobra Pilots in 'Nam had to do this a lot. Unfortunately, the proximity
>blasts will still kill a chopper no problem.

Unarmored helicopters, yes. I'm not sure but I think armored (attack)
helicopters have less trouble with the blast than nearly-unarmored ones like
the AH-1G Cobra. Still, what was that VC saying... "Don't shoot at that kind
of helicopter"?

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 23
From: Mark Sawko <sawk6112@****.GMI.EDU>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 15:27:01 -0400
Robert Watkins wrote:

> Aren't all radar-guided missiles proximity fused?

No, I know that radar guided anti-ship missles actually hit their target. I would imagine
that in almost all other cases, however, a missle would have a proximity fuse since that
makes it easier to damage/destroy the target. I think the only reason anti-ship missles
aren't proximity fused is because a missle exploding near a ship probably won't sink it,
but a missle hitting a ship at the water level and then exploding is a differnt story.

/--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Mark Sawko |GMI Engineering|GM to player: |
| sawk6112@****.gmi.edu |and Management | No, you can't quick-draw |
| http://www.gmi.edu/~sawk6112|Institute | a halberd. |
| |Flint, MI | |
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Message no. 24
From: Matt Hufstetler <gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 15:55:16 -0400
>
> >Cobra Pilots in 'Nam had to do this a lot. Unfortunately, the proximity
> >blasts will still kill a chopper no problem.
>
> Unarmored helicopters, yes. I'm not sure but I think armored (attack)
> helicopters have less trouble with the blast than nearly-unarmored ones like
> the AH-1G Cobra. Still, what was that VC saying... "Don't shoot at that kind
> of helicopter"?

About the only helicopter which I could think of which would be even close
to being that armoured would be a Hind or something....
Message no. 25
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 17:09:25 GMT
Robert Watkins writes:
> Aren't all radar-guided missiles proximity fused?

No. Some, such as the British Rapier, are "hittiles" - sufficiently
accurate to have only contact fuses. The advantage is that the warhead
can be much smaller, hence the missile is faster and more agile and
more likely to achieve that hit. Also, the missile can fly much lower
to engage low-flying targets without the proximity fuse being activated
by obstructions.

The Shorts Starstreak, although laser-guided rather than radar-guided,
has no warhead: the kinetic energy of three tungsten darts travelling at
Mach 4 provides perfectly adequate killing power. Hence, no fuse :)

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 26
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 22:10:53 GMT
> Hello everybody!
> How does you handle rockets/missile on long ranges? Do they hit instantly
> or need they time to reach the target kind of grenades (exploding 5 turns
> later)?
> Just curious. I hope to see some sitution like this
> Gunner: "Incoming missile, incoming missile"
> Pilot : "let's shake it ..."

Air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles average about Mach 1.5 to Mach 4.5
- call it 500 to 1,500 metres a second, or 1,500 to 4,500 metres in a
combat turn. For a missile such as Starstreak, time-of-flight is about
two seconds to maximum range. "Incoming missile, incomi"WHAAAAAMM!!!!

Surface-to-surface missiles such as TOW and MILAN fly rather slower,
(faster means more motor and less warhead), taking about 10-20 seconds per
kilometre. You don't have much time to dodge a 500km/h missile when your
top speed in a tank is a tenth of that, though... and even in a car doing
200-250kph, your manoeverability is rather limited.

Also, most pilots hit by short-range SAMs such as SA-7 and SA-16 were
unaware of the attack - the missile approaches from behind and below,
where you have very little visibility.

The main countermeasure in an aircraft is to SEE IT COMING! If you can see
it you can evade it. Manoevre plus expendables (chaff and flares) will
let you dodge the first missile. The problem is that a very effective
tactic is to fire a pair of missiles, several seconds apart: you burn off
energy avoiding the first, and are left wide open to the second.

Also, some weapons (e.g. RBS.70, Starstreak, Javelin, Rapier, Roland)
use optical or EO guidance: semi-active laser homing ("designated target"),
laser-beam riding (so the target popping smoke probably won't help),
or optical command-to-line-of-sight (SACLOS) guidance: keep the crosshairs
on the target and BLAM! In all three cases, jamming is difficult to
impossible.

For ground vehicles your problem is different: you don't have time or
speed to dodge (the third dimension helps a lot for aircraft) and the
missile is generally command-guided, so expendable decoys are pointless.
Popping smoke helps: the Israelis point out that the best argument is
return fire. An antitank missile takes 15 seconds per kilometre: bullets
take one second per kilometre. A dead (or diving for cover) gunner guides
no missile. Hence the proliferation of roof-mounted MGs on Israeli tanks,
to suppress RPG and Sagger crews.

I'm ignoring medium and long-range SAMs (Patriot, SA-6, et al) since not
many campaigns routinely feature them. Details on request, though :)

Basically, Shadowrun subsumes all of this into ECM/ECCM, missile Intelligence,
gunnery skill and Control Pool. While you can get more complicated, I would
suggest reading up on how it's done today and writing your own rules once
you understand the principles involved.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 27
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 22:29:57 GMT
Eve Forward replied to Somebody:
> >>>You defeat a missile by forcing it to track beyond it's gimble limits.
That
> is, you either move outside the seeker heads ability to see you or you force
> the missile to put on such a hard turn that it will overshot and fly right
> past you. Now missiles today can put on some amazing turns (sorry can't tell
> you the numbers) but suffice it to say that with the improvements in
> materials in 205X you can not maneuver a vehicle aggressively enough to
> defeat a missile and still have a living human inside that vehicle (the human
> body could not withstand the G-forces required). So I hope you have damn
> good ECM equipment onboard.<<<

This is actually incorrect. A fighter aircraft can manage seven to nine
G's of turn, a transport three to five (depending on load, design, et cetera).
However, the vital factor is turn *radius*. Although a missile can pull
thirty to forty Gs in a turn, its much higher speed means its turn is much
wider even though it is pulling very hard. Aerodynamics and the amount of
control force that can be generated without excessive drag limit the
G-force available to a missile, not materials technology.

This is the cornerstone of missile evasion: to force the missile into a
situation where it must turn a square corner. It has been done in aircraft
the size of AC-130 gunships.

>
> How about chaff?
>

Alternatively, cause the missile to follow a false target (generated by
your ECM gear, by expendables (chaff and flares), or by a towed-body
decoy) until you are outside the seeker's field-of-view: it can't see you,
it can't hurt you. Manoevre assists greatly here too. If you drop chaff
against a radar-guided missile, the chaff might confuse the missile for
two seconds. If you fly away from the missile, once it decides to ignore
the chaff it can still see you and continues the attack. If you can fly
at 90 degrees to the inbound, two seconds of flight takes you several
hundred metres to the side: enough that the missile may not be able to
reacquire you, or if it does it may not be able to turn the corner to
intercept you.

The problem is simply that short-range IR-SAMs have such short flight times
that you have very little time in which to do *anything*. Hence the fact that
they are one of the most effective AA systems around today.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 28
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 20:01:55 -0400
Gurth wrote:

>This would also be possible, if you again know the missile is coming, and
>have both the nerves and reflexes to wait for it to just about strike... And
>even then, I'd guess only aircraft would be fast enough to try this sort of
>stunt (though on second thoughts... they're probably not maneuverable
>enough. Helicopters would probably be your best bet :)

Your best bet to defeat a missile is to defeat the person who is going to
shoot it at you before he can pull the trigger. Unless you have A LOT of
airspeed on the aircraft you don't even stand a chance of being able to turn
hard enough to defeat the missile. Believe you, me, treat missile with a
great deal of respect! Those of us that fly in areas where they are shot at
us, do.

Duke
Message no. 29
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 20:01:56 -0400
Gurth wrote:

> My ruling would be that "ECM" simply covers all available means of
defeating
>missiles -- chaff, flares, RAM, active jamming, etc. etc.

I think you handled this the wisest way possible (I probably think this
because it is the same way I handled the exact same question.)

Duke
Message no. 30
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 20:01:56 -0400
Gurth wrote:

>Unarmored helicopters, yes. I'm not sure but I think armored (attack)
>helicopters have less trouble with the blast than nearly-unarmored ones like
>the AH-1G Cobra. Still, what was that VC saying... "Don't shoot at that kind
>of helicopter"?

The problem is that the concussion shatters the rotor blades. There is no
way to armor the rotor blades of a helo. So it really doesn't matter what
type of helo you are shooting at, it's in trouble.

Duke
Message no. 31
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 20:01:55 -0400
Robert Watkins wrote:

>Aren't all radar-guided missiles proximity fused?

All air to air and surface to air missiles are prox fused. But air to
surface and surface to surface radar missiles are impact fused (don't want
that missile going off just cause if flew by a tree). Maybe by 205X the AI
in the missile is good enough for even surface targeted missiles to have prox
fuses.

Duke
Message no. 32
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 20:01:45 -0400
-Bryan wrote:

> most air to air missiles are capable of at least mach 4. These missiles
have fairly
> large turning radii though, but then again, so do jets.

True for Air to air missiles but remember the A-A missile gets the advantage
of starting with the speed of the launching platform and accelerating from
there. But a missiles turning radius is MUCH smaller than any jets (except a
harrier in hover, but then you could hit one of those with a paper airplane).

> That's not to say the rigger can't pull a suprise move on the missile to
trick it.
> Examples could be slamming the brakes or swerving at just the right time to
dodge
> the missile and force it to overshoot or hit another object. Remember,
missiles
> are rocket powered, and even with control surfaces and guidance systems,
they
> can't stop on a dime.

The problem is that most missiles have proximity fuses also. So the rigger
stomps the brakes at the last nano second, this will force the missile to
overshoot by a few feet. But the Prox fuse says "close enough" and detonates
the missile, I think this kind of maneuver is covered by the body resistance
test. The missile went off, but if the rigger was good enough (or rolled
well enough) then instead of a direct hit at D power the rigger takes it down
to proximity hit at S or even M damage.

Duke
Message no. 33
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 20:01:59 -0400
Paul Adams wrote:

>Aerodynamics and the amount of control force that can be generated without
>excessive drag limit the G-force available to a missile, not materials
technology.

The missile is limited by the strength of the material used to construct
those control surfaces. There is nothing inside the missile that can not
'hack' a extremely high G turn, and in the end-phase of the missile flight,
where the missile would have to execute this maneuver, it doesn't care if it
bleeds off almost all it's energy in that turn as long as it can hit it's
target (or get close enough) and explode. One of the major limiting factors
in how many G's a missile can pull is how strong are its control surface
servos and at what point will those control surfaces just snap off the thing.

Duke
Message no. 34
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 18:33:44 -0700
>>>Eve Forward replied to Somebody:<<

I only wrote the one line thing saying "How about chaff?" Credit where it's
due, after all....

-E
Message no. 35
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 1995 10:35:55 +0200
>About the only helicopter which I could think of which would be even close
>to being that armoured would be a Hind or something....

But they're not really maneuverable enough to pull that stunt with, are
they? I was under the impression that AH-64s were also rather well-armored
(or at least damage-resistant), enough to survive a 23mm round in the vital
parts of the machine.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Rechter: "Waarom verbouwde u nederwiet in uw kassen?"
Man: "Probeert u maar eens komkommers te verkopen aan een coffee shop."
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 36
From: Nathan Walker <NTWALKER@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 1995 08:27:53 -0400
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
>True for Air to air missiles but remember the A-A missile gets the advantage
>of starting with the speed of the launching platform and accelerating from
>there. But a missiles turning radius is MUCH smaller than any jets (except a
>harrier in hover, but then you could hit one of those with a paper airplane).

Obviously you've never been near a harrier hovering...they put out alot of
wind, you couldn't hit it with a paper airplane... :)

But seriously, Harriers can do VIF, Vectoring in Flight, which means that the
pilot can change the direction of the thrust even while flying, which means
he can pull a _really_ tight turn, which is why Harriers have an incredible
dogfight kill ratio. I don't remember what it is, but only like 5 have ever
been shot down.

*Warning: My stats could be the waist on the newest world supermodel, as I
sometimes get some of those numbers mixed up. :)

>>>>> Nate, the eternally confused
------------------------------------------------------------------------
| NTWalker@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US |
| Vax/VMS Guru (sad, but true) |
| |
| What kind of a world do we live in where a man dressed up as a bat |
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| - Joker |
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Message no. 37
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 1995 23:31:03 GMT
Nate Walker writes:
> From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
> >True for Air to air missiles but remember the A-A missile gets the advantage
> >of starting with the speed of the launching platform and accelerating from
> >there. But a missiles turning radius is MUCH smaller than any jets (except a
> >harrier in hover, but then you could hit one of those with a paper airplane).
>
> Obviously you've never been near a harrier hovering...they put out alot of
> wind, you couldn't hit it with a paper airplane... :)
>
> But seriously, Harriers can do VIF, Vectoring in Flight, which means that the
> pilot can change the direction of the thrust even while flying, which means
> he can pull a _really_ tight turn, which is why Harriers have an incredible
> dogfight kill ratio. I don't remember what it is, but only like 5 have ever
> been shot down.

This comes up regularly over on rec.aviation.military. I have it on good
authority both from Fleet Air Arm FRS.1 Sea Harrier pilots, and from a
US Marine Corps AV-8B instructor-pilot, that Harriers do not VIFF in combat.

Why not? Because you bleed off huge amounts of energy, to end up flying slow.
And speed is life. Speed and/or altitude can be converted into evasive
manoevres. Once you're slow you're helpless. "Out of airspeed, energy
and ideas" describes someone about to be embarrassed (in training) or killed
(in war).

However, the Harrier is a very agile aircraft (its instantaneous turn rate
exceeds that of a F-16, although the Falcon can hold that turn for longer).
That, plus superior pilot training, made the difference in the Falklands
where 20+ Argentinian aircraft were shot down for no air-to-air losses.

(The supply by the U.S. of advanced models of the AIM-9 Sidewinder was also
a major factor, BTW).

The USMC use the Harrier as a ground-attack aircraft with only self-defence
air-to-air capability and AFAIK have recorded no air-to-air combat in that
type.

All Harrier losses to date have been either accidental or to ground fire,
either gunfire or IR SAMs such as SA-7 and SA-16.

<Pedantic propeller-head mode off> :)

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 38
From: Peter Bailey <pbailey@*****.IPSWICHCITY.QLD.GOV.AU>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 14:22:13 +0200
Hi Duke,

> -Bryan wrote:
>
> >Average rocket speed, say about 400 mph.
> >Average missile speed, say about 2500 mph (ATA/SAM), 250-400 mph
> > (Smart infantry cruise missile, the ones that weave around
> buildings)

Your garden variety Short Range Air to Air Missile adds about 600-1400
knots to it's launch speed before it runs out of fuel about 3-5 seconds
after that launch. Then it coasts the rest of the way to it's target.

> I think your rocket speeds are a bit low. A rocket travels faster than a
> missile since there is nothing to a rocket but fuel, explosive, and casing,
> whereas a missile also has to have guidance equipment and control surfaces.

Nope, by 205x I would expect missiles to be flying about that fast in the
lower atmosphere. As for the other stuff, the trade off from missile to
rocket is usually made by making the rocket lighter and smaller.

> This brings up an interesting point...how do you dodge a missile?

With great difficulty. :-)

> You defeat a missile by forcing it to track beyond it's gimble limits. That
> is, you either move outside the seeker heads ability to see you or you force
> the missile to put on such a hard turn that it will overshot and fly right
> past you. Now missiles today can put on some amazing turns (sorry can't tell
> you the numbers) but suffice it to say that with the improvements in

Try about a 40g turn for the french made matra missile. Mind that's a huge
mutha AAM, but it was built in the late 70's. Today's Aim-9's don't have
the control surfaces to turn that hard yet.

> materials in 205X you can not maneuver a vehicle aggressively enough to
> defeat a missile and still have a living human inside that vehicle (the human
> body could not withstand the G-forces required). So I hope you have damn
> good ECM equipment onboard.

Hear-Hear. However, duck around behind a building at just the right moment,
or convince it that something else is you, and your home and hosed. :-)
Message no. 39
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 17:07:29 GMT
> > >Cobra Pilots in 'Nam had to do this a lot. Unfortunately, the proximity
> > >blasts will still kill a chopper no problem.
> >
> > Unarmored helicopters, yes. I'm not sure but I think armored (attack)
> > helicopters have less trouble with the blast than nearly-unarmored ones like
> > the AH-1G Cobra. Still, what was that VC saying... "Don't shoot at that
kind
> > of helicopter"?
>
> About the only helicopter which I could think of which would be even close
> to being that armoured would be a Hind or something....

The Russian Ka-50 "Werewolf" (NATO name Hokum) is armoured to withstand
23mm cannon fire: not to be tolerant to it, meaning you can survive, but to
remain combat capable after 23mm HE-I hits. There's a big difference between
surviving a hit from a 23mm shell weighing 100g and a six-pound HE warhead
from a Stinger, let alone anything bigger. Missiles will generally cause
catastrophic damage sufficient to kill you if you let them get close enough
for the proximity fuse to activate.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 40
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: How to handle missiles?
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 19:29:35 GMT
In message <950901200157_9017872@******.mail.aol.com> SHADOWRN@*****.nic.surfnet.nl
writes:
> Paul Adams wrote:
> The missile is limited by the strength of the material used to construct
> those control surfaces...<snip>... One of the major limiting factors
> in how many G's a missile can pull is how strong are its control surface
> servos and at what point will those control surfaces just snap off the thing.
> Duke

Whoops... completely forgot that point :(

But certainly the power of the actuators is a major factor. From submarine
design (same principles) one big problem with getting control authority at
high speed is the force required to push a control surface against the
airstream. The servo to handle that, and the power to drive the servo, are
an even bigger problem in smaller systems like torpedoes or missiles.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

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