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Message no. 1
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: HUGE Karma Bonding Discrepancies
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 07:48:05 -0500
At 01:34 PM 11/25/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Has anyone else noticed the ridiculous difference in Karma bonding costs
>listed in SR3 and MITS?
>Example:
>SR3 (p.190) lists a Power focus at 5 X Force, & a weapon focus at (3+weapon
>reach) X Force.
>MITS (p. 45) lists a Power Focus at 7 X Force, & a weapon focus at 8 X
>Force.
>
>What does everyone use in their games?

I'm not sure if this is a typo or not, but... Technically, unless an
erratta is issued (and I haven't really heard anything on this issue yet),
newer rulebooks supercede older rules.

And we've used the MITS rules...

Bull

>-DataHaven

--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net == bull22@***********.com == bull@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 2
From: DataHaven listmail@************.com
Subject: HUGE Karma Bonding Discrepancies
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 13:34:40 -0800
Has anyone else noticed the ridiculous difference in Karma bonding costs
listed in SR3 and MITS?
Example:
SR3 (p.190) lists a Power focus at 5 X Force, & a weapon focus at (3+weapon
reach) X Force.
MITS (p. 45) lists a Power Focus at 7 X Force, & a weapon focus at 8 X
Force.

What does everyone use in their games?

-DataHaven
Message no. 3
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: HUGE Karma Bonding Discrepancies
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:12:05 -0800 (PST)
> Has anyone else noticed the ridiculous difference in
Karma bonding costs listed in SR3 and MITS?
> Example:
> SR3 (p.190) lists a Power focus at 5 X Force, & a
weapon focus at (3+weapon reach) X Force.
> MITS (p. 45) lists a Power Focus at 7 X Force, & a
weapon focus at 8 X Force.
> What does everyone use in their games?
> -DataHaven

Well, I haven't had anyone bonding foci during my SR3
games yet, but...

Are you sure you aren't looking at the ORIGINAL
bonding cost at the time of enchanting in MitS? That's
always more expensive to begin with, as it can be
reduced, whereas further bondings can't (IIRC).

That would explain the discrepancy.

If that isn't it, well, it beats me. I don't have my
books here, so I can't check it out.

*Doc' feels like Charlie Brown...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 4
From: Elindor Quinn rjakins@******.murdoch.edu.au
Subject: HUGE Karma Bonding Discrepancies
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:56:16 +0800
DataHaven indicated HUGE Karma Bonding Discrepancies

> Has anyone else noticed the ridiculous difference in Karma bonding costs
> listed in SR3 and MITS? Example: SR3 (p.190) lists a Power focus at 5 X
> Force, & a weapon focus at (3+weapon reach) X Force. MITS (p. 45) lists a
> Power Focus at 7 X Force, & a weapon focus at 8 X Force.

The second figures you list from p45 of MITS are for first bonding,
when the focus is created. On page 169 there is a list of the foci
available and their bonding costs when purchased.

> What does everyone use in their games?
>
> -DataHaven
>
>
>



Elindor Quinn
We're happening people. We even have a pengun who can
-count-, for God's sake. How cool is that?
- Derek Joshua Croft, Neon Exodus Evangelion.
Message no. 5
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: HUGE Karma Bonding Discrepancies
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 20:42:28 -0400
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to DataHaven."
] Has anyone else noticed the ridiculous difference in Karma bonding costs
] listed in SR3 and MITS?
] Example:
] SR3 (p.190) lists a Power focus at 5 X Force, & a weapon focus at (3+weapon
] reach) X Force.
] MITS (p. 45) lists a Power Focus at 7 X Force, & a weapon focus at 8 X
] Force.

I'm fairly sure, as Doc' mentioned, that you're looking at the costs
for First Bonding. Check p. 169, Magical Gear, for the standard
bonding costs.

-Boondocker
Message no. 6
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: HUGE Karma Bonding Discrepancies
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 12:01:54 +0100
According to Scott W, at 20:42 on 25 Nov 99, the word on
the street was...

> ] SR3 (p.190) lists a Power focus at 5 X Force, & a weapon focus at (3+weapon
> ] reach) X Force.
> ] MITS (p. 45) lists a Power Focus at 7 X Force, & a weapon focus at 8 X
> ] Force.
>
> I'm fairly sure, as Doc' mentioned, that you're looking at the costs
> for First Bonding.

He was, but it does bring up the question why first bonding of a weapon
focus doesn't involve the Reach in the Karma cost, while it does form
normal bonding of the same focus.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Het is misschien kankerverwekkend, maar last heb je d'r niet van.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: DataHaven listmail@************.com
Subject: HUGE Karma Bonding Discrepancies
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 01:53:40 -0800
okay, the thing that bothers me is this:

If you have this huge cost for "First Bonding" in MITS compared to a
rletively inexpensive cost list in SR3, it poses a couple of problems.

1) Why would any mage want to create their own foci when the Karma cost is
so prohibitive?
2) This suggests that Talismongers expend huge volumes of Karma just to keep
their warez in stock, never using them themselves.

A comparison:

I worked out a Force 6 weapon focus for a mage I am running.
If I were to go through all the effort of making the thing myself, after
pumping a huge amount of Orichalcum into it for Karma reduction, spending
almost 7 months in game time, it would cost in the neighborhood of 30 to 35
Karma if ALL was performed optimally.
If I were to just walk down to my Talismongers place and buy a Force 6
weapon focus (provided one was available of course) it would only cost 24
Karma.

This just does not make any sense at all to me. Eratta material maybe?

-DataHaven

-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-admin@*********.org
[mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.org]On Behalf Of Bull
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 4:48 AM
To: shadowrn@*********.org
Subject: Re: HUGE Karma Bonding Discrepancies


At 01:34 PM 11/25/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Has anyone else noticed the ridiculous difference in Karma bonding costs
>listed in SR3 and MITS?
>Example:
>SR3 (p.190) lists a Power focus at 5 X Force, & a weapon focus at (3+weapon
>reach) X Force.
>MITS (p. 45) lists a Power Focus at 7 X Force, & a weapon focus at 8 X
>Force.
>
>What does everyone use in their games?

I'm not sure if this is a typo or not, but... Technically, unless an
erratta is issued (and I haven't really heard anything on this issue yet),
newer rulebooks supercede older rules.

And we've used the MITS rules...

Bull

>-DataHaven

--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net == bull22@***********.com == bull@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 8
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: HUGE Karma Bonding Discrepancies
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 12:01:32 +0100
According to DataHaven, at 1:53 on 27 Nov 99, the word on the street
was...

> 1) Why would any mage want to create their own foci when the Karma cost is
> so prohibitive?

Well... somebody will have to create them. If no magician would want to,
there'd be no foci :)

You can reduce the Karma cost by using things like orichalcum, and rolling
well on an Enchanting test, but what I find strange is that this Karma
cost reduction is so much lower using MITS than it used to be in the
Grimoire. With the Grimoire, the modifier was applied to the multiplier,
while in MITS it's applied to the overall Karma cost...

For example, take a Force 3 power focus. It costs a base of 21 Karma to
bond, both under the old and the new rules. But if you use two extra units
of orichalcum and use a virgin telesma, using the Grimoire the Karma cost
will drop to 9 Good Karma, while with MITS it'll only go down to 17.

I think the best solution is to apply the modifiers to the mulitplier,
instead of to the overall Karma cost. If not, there is hardly any point in
them unless it's for foci that don't cost much Karma anyway, in order to
bring them down to 0. And if there's no point in lowering the Karma cost,
I can't see many people making their own foci when a talismonger can be
found who is stupid enough to do it for them :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Het is misschien kankerverwekkend, maar last heb je d'r niet van.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: HUGE Karma Bonding Discrepancies
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 16:11:38 EST
In a message dated 11/25/1999 4:29:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
listmail@************.com writes:

> SR3 (p.190) lists a Power focus at 5 X Force, & a weapon focus at (3+weapon
> reach) X Force.
> MITS (p. 45) lists a Power Focus at 7 X Force, & a weapon focus at 8 X
> Force.
>
> What does everyone use in their games?

Hmmm....gonna have to go look at this. We've been using MitS stuff now for
over a year outselves, but I've never really compared all the numbers unless
I have to. Could the SR3 Book cost be "standard bonding", and the MitS costs
be the "First Bonding" costs? These were always different in previous
editions is why I'm asking.

-K
"Bastard GM" (as dubbed by Doc' ;-)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 10
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: HUGE Karma Bonding Discrepancies
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 16:31:54 EST
In a message dated 11/26/1999 5:59:03 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.nl writes:

>
> He was, but it does bring up the question why first bonding of a weapon
> focus doesn't involve the Reach in the Karma cost, while it does form
> normal bonding of the same focus.

What???!??? I have *never* seen this one...

-K
"Bastard GM" (as dubbed by Doc' ;-)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 11
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: HUGE Karma Bonding Discrepancies
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 13:36:10 +0100
According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 16:31 on 27 Nov 99, the word on
the street was...

> > He was, but it does bring up the question why first bonding of a weapon
> > focus doesn't involve the Reach in the Karma cost, while it does form
> > normal bonding of the same focus.
>
> What???!??? I have *never* seen this one...

SR3 p. 190/MITS p. 169: "Weapon focus: (3 + Weapon Reach) x Force"
MITS p. 45: "Weapon: 8 x Force"

IOW, if you buy a pole arm weapon focus from a talismonger you have to pay
five times the Force in Karma, while a knife would only be 3 x Force. But
if you make them yourself, the cost is 8 x Force for either. IMHO, that
just doesn't add up...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Het is misschien kankerverwekkend, maar last heb je d'r niet van.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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