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From:	Chris Maxfield chris@*****.com.au
Subject:	Human Form
Date:	Thu, 17 Feb 2000 00:27:03 +1100

Message no. 1 At 10:22 Monday 14/02/2000, Alfredo B Alves wrote:
> > Sure, spirits of man. And if they're lucky enough to appear as more than
> > vaguely humanoid (brownies and faerie folk) spirits of man are still stuck
> > with whatever manifestation reflected their original summoning and domain.
> > They still have no flexibility for fitting in.
>
>Uhm. Where does it say that? Give me a quote.

Because they are not granted the ability to chose. Nowhere, outside the
Human Form power, do the rules say that spirits may chose what form they
materialize in. They just appear in certain forms. Perhaps the form is
chosen by the conjurer's subconscious, perhaps it's the alignment of the
stars, perhaps it's a metaplanar thing, perhaps it's purely mystical -
whatever it is, nowhere do the rules say it's the spirit's choice. Nor does
it say anywhere that the a spirit may change its materialization form.
Therefore, the miniature farm-hand field spirit with the ten gallon hat is
stuck with this form when it goes free.

>Or put into a sustaining focus or quickened.

When the spirit goes astral, the focus is deactivated and the physical
illusion is kaput. And both are subject to astral spotting and
interference. Neither helps with the spirit's astral appearance.

> > are susceptible to astral
> > interference and can be dispelled, and illusions can be resisted (although
> > Mask cannot do what you suggest).
>
>Why not? I see no reason it can't.

Because the Mask spells can only make small changes to the target: "same
basic size and shape". How's this going to do any good for the blood spirit
which can only materialize as a blood-red cloud of mist?

> > Human Form has all of the advantages and
> > none of the problems of spell disguises. Also, Human Form is perfectly
> > complimentary to both Aura Masking and Sorcery. None of these powers are
> > mutually exclusive or replace the others.
>
>You know, now that you mention it ... I can't see a spirit who shrugs off
>all spell drain straining to sustain a spell. Can you?

Ugh. :-) I'd rather not go down that road. The Sorcery power is strong
enough as it is.

>Powerful? Hardly.

I think it's a terminology thing. Human Form is not, I agree, directly
in-your-face powerful. It's like Aura Masking in that it is an indirect
sort of powerful - powerful in terms of misinformation, influencing,
enhancement and story-line.

>That assumes that a spirit can't do any of those via materialization.
>Perhaps if the limitations of materialization were better laid out, the
>advantages of Human Form would be more apparent. To me, the concept of a
>Human Form (as more than an illusion) seems to be an anchor to physical
>plane but the abilities do not reflect that.

Well, SR3 states, no if or buts, that a fire elemental only materializes as
a humanoid shape of fire. It will have a great deal of trouble driving a
car or handling a cred stick without damaging or destroying them. And a
fire elemental arming and using weapons gives me the willies. A mist spirit
only materializes as a swirling cloud of thick fog - it will have a great
deal of trouble using a computer to trade its stocks. Other elementals,
some other nature spirits, blood spirits and some spirits of the elements
have it just as bad. These spirits need Human Form. With Human Form they
can use all these things - and that seems powerful to me.

and...
At 13:47 Monday 14/02/2000, HHackerH@***.com wrote:
>No Alfredo, they do NOT choose their Human Form. The talent is NOT the same
>as the Animal Form ability at all. With animal form, a select form is
>chosen. Not so with Human Form. Hence, in animal form the attributes are
>boosted by the spirit's energy/force (one of the two, I don't recall which)
>and in Human Form, the attributes are just the spirit's normally materialized
>ones.

Well, unless there is an errata for MITS beyond 1.0, I'm afraid that this
doesn't quite match what's in my copy of MITS. In both the Animal Form and
Human Form descriptions, the physical attributes of the materialization are
equal to the normal physical attributes for the critter(Animal Form) / type
(Human Form) (referencing p19 of Critters in both cases) plus spirit
energy, and the mental attributes in both cases are the spirit's Force.

and...
>At 18:17 Monday 14/02/2000, Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>Fine. If you want a spirit floating around that can flawlessly
>impersonate anyone automaticly at the drop of hat, that's fine. I don't.
>If I allow free spirits to impersonate specific individuals, I'll make a
>mechanic for it and it won't be automatic or flawless.

Although the Human Form power gives a spirit the ability to "assume any
metahuman form it desires", I don't think this gives the spirit the ability
to flawlessly mimic anyone but I do think they can have a go. (Perhaps roll
the spirit's intelligence against a target number determined by how well
the spirit has studied the target metahuman's appearance. The number of
successes would measure how good the imitation is.)

Chris

From:	Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject:	Human Form
Date:	Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:52:45 -0800

Message no. 2 On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 00:27:03 +1100 Chris Maxfield <chris@*****.com.au>
writes:
<SNIP>
> Because they are not granted the ability to chose. Nowhere, outside the

> Human Form power, do the rules say that spirits may chose what form
they
> materialize in. They just appear in certain forms. Perhaps the form is
> chosen by the conjurer's subconscious, perhaps it's the alignment of
the
> stars, perhaps it's a metaplanar thing, perhaps it's purely mystical -
> whatever it is, nowhere do the rules say it's the spirit's choice. Nor
does
> it say anywhere that the a spirit may change its materialization form.
> Therefore, the miniature farm-hand field spirit with the ten gallon hat
is
> stuck with this form when it goes free.

You misunderstood me. I -KNOW- SR has said that the spirit chooses the
form it materializes in. I was unsure if it said that it could change
this form. As for where this was said, I'm not sure; most likely SR2.
(Apparently, btw, no spirit has had bad enough taste to manifest as
wearing a ten gallon hat ... ;)

> >Or put into a sustaining focus or quickened.

> When the spirit goes astral, the focus is deactivated and the physical
> illusion is kaput. And both are subject to astral spotting and
> interference.

Actually, this makes me wonder ... does the shift to astral disrupt the
quickening? I always assumed it did ...

> Neither helps with the spirit's astral appearance.

Neither were intended to.

> > > are susceptible to astral
> > > interference and can be dispelled, and illusions can be resisted
(although
> > > Mask cannot do what you suggest).

> >Why not? I see no reason it can't.

> Because the Mask spells can only make small changes to the target:
"same
> basic size and shape". How's this going to do any good for the blood
spirit
> which can only materialize as a blood-red cloud of mist?

1) Mists are amorphous.
2) It can materialize as whatever it bloody well pleases.

<SNIP>
> >Powerful? Hardly.
>
> I think it's a terminology thing. Human Form is not, I agree, directly
> in-your-face powerful. It's like Aura Masking in that it is an indirect

> sort of powerful - powerful in terms of misinformation, influencing,
> enhancement and story-line.

Interesting that you imply that my definition of powerful differs from
yours yet you say Human Form is as powerful as Aura Masking, a power
which I think is plenty powerful. I think the difference comes from
different perceptions of what Human Form does for the spirit. (Which was
the point of starting this thread; to outline what Human Form does for a
free spirit.)

> >That assumes that a spirit can't do any of those via materialization.
> >Perhaps if the limitations of materialization were better laid out,
the
> >advantages of Human Form would be more apparent. To me, the concept of
a
> >Human Form (as more than an illusion) seems to be an anchor to
physical
> >plane but the abilities do not reflect that.

> Well, SR3 states, no if or buts, that a fire elemental only
materializes as
> a humanoid shape of fire.

I disagree. Those are common manifestations, not the only manifestations.

> It will have a great deal of trouble driving a
> car or handling a cred stick without damaging or destroying them. And a

> fire elemental arming and using weapons gives me the willies. A mist
spirit
> only materializes as a swirling cloud of thick fog - it will have great

> deal of trouble using a computer to trade its stocks. Other elementals,

> some other nature spirits, blood spirits and some spirits of the
elements
> have it just as bad. These spirits need Human Form.

Wrong. Your thinking is restricted. You read a humanoid sheathed in
flames and think that it a human on fire. It's not. That is the
appearance and nothing else. Think of the materialized form as a
hologram. Yes, it may appear as a humanoid sheathed in flames but it is
not hot to the touch, it doesn't burn you, it may not even give off
light. Perhaps it does give off light. Perhaps all spirits do. The
appearance does not determine the function or the material properties of
the spirit. This is why we need a better definition of what a
materialized spirit is capable of. Does the Immunity to Normal Weapons
come from the spirit being more solid, or less solid? Or is it increased
ability to shift between solid and insubstantial rapidly? Or is it
because it has no vital organs? Or is it a combination of the above?

> With Human Form they
> can use all these things - and that seems powerful to me.

Well, you seem to think materialized spirits are cripples so maybe that's
why ...

<SNIP>
> and...
> >At 18:17 Monday 14/02/2000, Alfredo B Alves wrote:
> >Fine. If you want a spirit floating around that can flawlessly
> >impersonate anyone automaticly at the drop of hat, that's fine. I
don't.
> >If I allow free spirits to impersonate specific individuals, I'll make
a
> >mechanic for it and it won't be automatic or flawless.

> Although the Human Form power gives a spirit the ability to "assume any

> metahuman form it desires", I don't think this gives the spirit the
ability
> to flawlessly mimic anyone but I do think they can have a go. (Perhaps
roll
> the spirit's intelligence against a target number determined by how
well
> the spirit has studied the target metahuman's appearance. The number of

> successes would measure how good the imitation is.)

I don't think that's the intended use of the ability and I think that it
makes the ability too powerful. (I think Human Form needs a power boost,
but this is overkill.)

--
D. Ghost
A Mathmatician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems
--Paul Erdos

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From:	Chris Maxfield chris@*****.com.au
Subject:	Human Form
Date:	Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:38:20 +1100

Message no. 3 At 23:52 Wednesday 16/02/2000, Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>You misunderstood me. I -KNOW- SR has said that the spirit chooses the
>form it materializes in. I was unsure if it said that it could change
>this form. As for where this was said, I'm not sure; most likely SR2.
>(Apparently, btw, no spirit has had bad enough taste to manifest as
>wearing a ten gallon hat ... ;)

:-) Well, the ten gallon hat is rumored though unverified.

You say that you know SR has said that a spirit chooses the form in which
it materializes but could you "know it" from a source like SR fiction
rather than the rule books? Through the years, I've been over the SR2 and
SR3 books countless times but I've never seen this stated. If I'm suffering
from a blind spot then, please, give me a quote.

>Actually, this makes me wonder ... does the shift to astral disrupt the
>quickening? I always assumed it did ...

The SR3 rules seem pretty clear in the demarcation between spell casting
astrally and spell casting physically. I'd say that you cannot drag a
spell from one plane to the other.

>1) Mists are amorphous.

Which is my point. I'm not saying that some illusion spell won't do the job
you want, just that the particular illusion spell, Mask, is too restrictive.

>2) It can materialize as whatever it bloody well pleases.

Well, your words back at you: Where does it say that? Give me a quote.

>Interesting that you imply that my definition of powerful differs from
>yours yet you say Human Form is as powerful as Aura Masking, a power
>which I think is plenty powerful. I think the difference comes from
>different perceptions of what Human Form does for the spirit. (Which was
>the point of starting this thread; to outline what Human Form does for a
>free spirit.)

Human Form is just as powerful as Aura Masking, one changes the astral the
other changes the physical, if you don't start from the assumption that a
spirit can materialize in any form it please.

>I disagree. Those are common manifestations, not the only manifestations.

The rules do not describe the elemental's physical forms as "most common".
They state exactly how elementals appear and no more.

>Wrong. Your thinking is restricted. You read a humanoid sheathed in
>flames and think that it a human on fire. It's not. That is the

No, I'm thinking of elemental fire in the shape of a humanoid.

>appearance and nothing else. Think of the materialized form as a
>hologram. Yes, it may appear as a humanoid sheathed in flames but it is
>not hot to the touch, it doesn't burn you, it may not even give off

Where does it say this? Why should I assume that materialized elementals
and spirits of the elements are not composed of the elements from which
they come? Their vulnerabilities make far more sense if you assumed that
they are composed of their elements.

>light. Perhaps it does give off light. Perhaps all spirits do. The
>appearance does not determine the function or the material properties of
>the spirit. This is why we need a better definition of what a
>materialized spirit is capable of. Does the Immunity to Normal Weapons
>come from the spirit being more solid, or less solid? Or is it increased

I fully agree with this question. It's an issue I'd like to see clarified
in the rules.

>Well, you seem to think materialized spirits are cripples so maybe that's
>why ...

Cripples? Hardly. Just saying they cannot materialize in any form that they
please can in no way be read as crippling them.

>I don't think that's the intended use of the ability and I think that it
>makes the ability too powerful. (I think Human Form needs a power boost,
>but this is overkill.)

Why is it okay for spirits to attempt to imitate people through the use of
illusion spells but it's too powerful if they do it through the use of
Human Form?

Chris

From:	Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject:	Human Form
Date:	Thu, 17 Feb 2000 23:58:18 -0800

Message no. 4 On Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:38:20 +1100 Chris Maxfield <chris@*****.com.au>
writes:
<SNIP>
> You say that you know SR has said that a spirit chooses the form in
which
> it materializes but could you "know it" from a source like SR fiction
> rather than the rule books? Through the years, I've been over the SR2
and
> SR3 books countless times but I've never seen this stated. If I'm
suffering
> from a blind spot then, please, give me a quote.

It was probably in SR2, Grimy, or Awakenings. In general, I don't read
novels. The only SR novels I've read are the Dragonheart Trilogy (It's
not from there), and Technobabel (no spirits :P~). I'm a bit busy now so
I'm not going to look through my books for the reference. Maybe on the
weekend.

<SNIP>
> >1) Mists are amorphous.

> Which is my point. I'm not saying that some illusion spell won't do the
job
> you want, just that the particular illusion spell, Mask, is too
restrictive.

I meant that a mist can be formed into a humanoid shape and size.

> >2) It can materialize as whatever it bloody well pleases.

> Well, your words back at you: Where does it say that? Give me a
> quote.

See above. My interpretation of the aforementioned passage is that a
spirit materializes as it wishes but each spirit type has certain
preferences.

<SNIP>
> Human Form is just as powerful as Aura Masking, one changes the astral
the
> other changes the physical, if you don't start from the assumption that
a
> spirit can materialize in any form it please.

It's more than that. Aura Masking allows a Free Spirit a great deal of
freedom (appearing to be not astrally active, bypass wards and barriers,
etc). Human Form only adds a modest amount to the Spirit's quality of
life. Also, Aura Masking provides the spirit with great personal defense
(appearing as a bound spirit or disguising its home metaplane.).

> >I disagree. Those are common manifestations, not the only
> manifestations.

> The rules do not describe the elemental's physical forms as "most
common".
> They state exactly how elementals appear and no more.

The descriptions used to be more flexible. I think they got cut down to
save space. If I have time this weekend I'll look that up too.

> >Wrong. Your thinking is restricted. You read a humanoid sheathed in
> >flames and think that it a human on fire. It's not. That is the

> No, I'm thinking of elemental fire in the shape of a humanoid.

Same thing :P~

> >appearance and nothing else. Think of the materialized form as a
> >hologram. Yes, it may appear as a humanoid sheathed in flames but it
is
> >not hot to the touch, it doesn't burn you, it may not even give off

> Where does it say this? Why should I assume that materialized
elementals
> and spirits of the elements are not composed of the elements from which

> they come? Their vulnerabilities make far more sense if you assumed
that
> they are composed of their elements.

Think about it: Do you get burned if you stick your hand in a fire
elemental? No, they can turn that (Flame Aura) on and off. In effect,
they are walking quintessential representations of their elements on the
physical/astral. They can call forth their associated elements, but they
are not neccessarily composed of their element. A Great Form can do the
same thing on a larger scale. The thing to keepin mind, however, is that
these are voluntary and can be turned on and off.

<SNIP>
> Cripples? Hardly. Just saying they cannot materialize in any form
> that they
> please can in no way be read as crippling them.

I was referring to your assumption of how little they can interact with
their surrondings.

> >I don't think that's the intended use of the ability and I think that
it
> >makes the ability too powerful. (I think Human Form needs a power
boost,
> >but this is overkill.)

> Why is it okay for spirits to attempt to imitate people through the use
of
> illusion spells but it's too powerful if they do it through the use of
> Human Form?

You have to sustain an illusion ... ;P~

--
D. Ghost
A Mathmatician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems
--Paul Erdos

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From:	Chris Maxfield chris@*****.com.au
Subject:	Human Form
Date:	Sun, 20 Feb 2000 01:55:46 +1100

Message no. 5 At 23:58 Thursday 17/02/2000, Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>It was probably in SR2, Grimy, or Awakenings. In general, I don't read
>novels. The only SR novels I've read are the Dragonheart Trilogy (It's
>not from there), and Technobabel (no spirits :P~). I'm a bit busy now so
>I'm not going to look through my books for the reference. Maybe on the
>weekend.

Cool.

>It's more than that. Aura Masking allows a Free Spirit a great deal of
>freedom (appearing to be not astrally active, bypass wards and barriers,
>etc). Human Form only adds a modest amount to the Spirit's quality of
>life. Also, Aura Masking provides the spirit with great personal defense
>(appearing as a bound spirit or disguising its home metaplane.).

And this is the same category of thing that Human Form does in the physical
world: physical disguise, physical deceit, the personal defense of not
looking like a spirit so as not to spook the common folk (it's hard doing
anything when you're spending all your time dodging exorcists hired by
fearful citizens).

>The descriptions used to be more flexible. I think they got cut down to
>save space. If I have time this weekend I'll look that up too.

The descriptions as given (for the fire elementals used in this example) are:
SR1: "A fire spirit appears as a reddish-orange, lizard-like creature
sheathed in an aura of flames."
SR2: "A fire spirit appears as a reddish-orange, lizard-like creature
sheathed in an aura of flames."
SR3: "A fire elemental appears as a humanoid shape of fire, or occasionally
as a reddish-orange lizard-like creature sheathed in flames."

No room for flexibility al all.

>Think about it: Do you get burned if you stick your hand in a fire
>elemental? No, they can turn that (Flame Aura) on and off. In effect,
>they are walking quintessential representations of their elements on the
>physical/astral. They can call forth their associated elements, but they
>are not neccessarily composed of their element. A Great Form can do the
>same thing on a larger scale. The thing to keepin mind, however, is that
>these are voluntary and can be turned on and off.

Agreed. But being a humanoid shape is not the same thing as being a
(meta)human shape and, therefore, does not mean that a spirit can use
(meta)human devices and equipment. And then there're spirits which
materialize as smoke, mist or balls of light. There's no doubt that these
beings have no chance of using (meta)human equipment. It is why Human Form
is so useful.

> > Cripples? Hardly. Just saying they cannot materialize in any form that
> they
> > please can in no way be read as crippling them.
>I was referring to your assumption of how little they can interact with
>their surrondings.

Then what you refer to as crippling, I refer to as the nature of the beast,
and (I believe) simply following the rules. It's why Human Form is such a
useful power, as written. ;-)

> > Why is it okay for spirits to attempt to imitate people through the use of
> > illusion spells but it's too powerful if they do it through the use of
> > Human Form?
>
>You have to sustain an illusion ... ;P~

Which is why Human Form is a useful power and I don't see it as too
powerful since the mimicry is still just an "attempt".

Chris

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