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Message no. 1
From: Stefan <casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Humanis Contacts
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 23:51:39 +0000
Was just thinking about this durring the last gaming session.

How come noone never ever pick Humanis contacts or other racists ?
But it is OK to have members of ORC or MOM as contacts ?

Could ofcause have to do with that whole good and evil thing but then
isn't really that in the eye of the beholder ?

Anyway ... just thinking away ...

/Stefan

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Message no. 2
From: "J. G. du Chatinier" <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 23:56:53 +0100
At 23:51 20/03/1998 +0000, you wrote:
>Was just thinking about this durring the last gaming session.
>
>How come noone never ever pick Humanis contacts or other racists ?
>But it is OK to have members of ORC or MOM as contacts ?
>
>Could ofcause have to do with that whole good and evil thing but then
>isn't really that in the eye of the beholder ?
>
>Anyway ... just thinking away ...
>
>/Stefan
*****
Hya,

Well, is this only with your group? Because I've had a player who was a
racist himself (in a stereotypical way, bust still a racist)...oh, and the
player himself ain't a racist. Admitted, it won't be often that you see
someone playing a racist character... but it happens.. just as often as you
see a male playing a female character.. well, maybe less often..

CU'round,

Jod
Message no. 3
From: MgkellyMP5 <MgkellyMP5@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 19:30:30 EST
In a message dated 98-03-20 17:52:30 EST, you write:

<< How come noone never ever pick Humanis contacts or other racists ?
But it is OK to have members of ORC or MOM as contacts ? >>

i suppose that if you REALLY wanted them....
i had a player in a game i was in take a Humanis Policlub Member as not only a
contact, but his older brother. needless to say, his staus in the group fell
as this was discovered and one of the team members (an absolutely enormous,
compulsively violent Troll Street Sam named Flail) decided to pay 'brother-
dearest' and his sheet-headed (made a funny ;] ) pals a visit ;]
not that his status meant much anyway. he was a Munchkin. and a dumb one at
that.
(fired off a Panther Assault Cannon at five in the morning in a residential
neighborhood. obviously, not the most intelligent move as he discovered when
the team evac'ed and left him to deal with the FRT that showed up three
minutes later ;] )

Mgkelly
Message no. 4
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 20:30:44 -0500
Why not have Humanis contacts? How are they that much worse than terrorist
contacts or some of the metahuman rights folks? Or for that matter, how
are they that much worse than a lot of shadowrunners out there?

A lot of gangs are rabidly racist, but few think twice about having a
ganger contact. The Yakuza and Mafia have strong racist tendencies, but
everyone wants to have them as contacts.

I don't really see it as a problem. My primary character had (before
identity changes wiped all his contacts) a Humanis Policlubber as a
contact. Of course, he never told the metahuman member of his team,
because that would be stupid. "Yeah, troggie, I'm gonna go have a beer
with my Humanis buddy." Sorry, don't think so. With the exception of
fixers, my characters NEVER revealed the identities of their contacts. It
was always "Let me check with some friends of mine." Not "Let me check
with Torg, the MOM activist and Dave, the Lone Star Detective."

Having a Humanis contact can be very important on some 'runs. This is
especially true if the runners are businessmen; they may despise what the
Humanis stand for, and may actually take actions against them, but nuyen is
nuyen.

For many shadowrunners, idealism is a luxury they can't afford.

There is nothing wrong with PCs using or knowing or even being friends with
Humanis. They don't even have to racists themselves to have a Humanis
friend. Trust me, I know.

Erik J.


"Oh, the silent helicopters and the men in black fatigues? They're just my
car pool to work."
Message no. 5
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 04:12:56 +0000
On 20 Mar 98 at 23:51, Stefan wrote:

> Was just thinking about this durring the last gaming session.
>
> How come noone never ever pick Humanis contacts or other racists ?

Hell, one of my players has an es-Humanis PC...:)

> Could of cause have to do with that whole good and evil thing but then
> isn't really that in the eye of the beholder ?

Well, your average runner is not exactly a role-model, either.


Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 6
From: Karl Low <kwil@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 20:30:34 -0700
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>


>On 20 Mar 98 at 23:51, Stefan wrote:
>
>> Was just thinking about this durring the last gaming session.
>>
>> How come noone never ever pick Humanis contacts or other racists ?
>
>Hell, one of my players has an es-Humanis PC...:)
>


Actually.. my latest character *is* a Humanis PC. One of their on campus
"recruitment" people to be precise.. a series of events have led him to start
questioning some of his beliefs but he's still considered (by Humanis and
himself) to be an active member.

It should be interesting balancing this off with running in the shadows..
seems most shadow groups I've come across are notoriously politically
correct.. not something I'd expect from people educated "the hard way"

-Karl
Message no. 7
From: Geoff Skellams <geoff.skellams@*********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:44:49 +1000
On Shadowrun Discussion, Stefan[SMTP:casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE] wrote:
> Was just thinking about this durring the last gaming session.
> How come noone never ever pick Humanis contacts or other racists ?
> But it is OK to have members of ORC or MOM as contacts ?
> Could ofcause have to do with that whole good and evil thing but then
> isn't really that in the eye of the beholder ?

There is a team out here in Australia that run a set of white
South African supremists in all the Virtual Seattle games at
conventions. As yet, I have not had the pleasure of running them, but
from what I have heard, they are typical of the whites in South Africa
at the height of apartied. Apparently, they are usually more interested
in crusing the streets of Seattle spotlightling for elves, than with
getting the mission finished.
I don't know if they have Humanis links, but they could almost
be a chapter unto themselves.

cheers
Geoff
--
Geoff Skellams R&D - Tower Software
Email Address: geoff.skellams@*********.com.au
Homepage: http://www.towersoft.com.au/staff/geoff/
ICQ Number: 2815165

"The Stoat - pound for pound the most dangerous creature on the face of
the planet"
- Chris Irwin, spouting crap during "Over Port & Cigars..."
Message no. 8
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 02:58:28 +0000
Casanova wrote:
> Was just thinking about this durring the last gaming session.
> How come noone never ever pick Humanis contacts or other racists ?
> But it is OK to have members of ORC or MOM as contacts ?
> Could ofcause have to do with that whole good and evil thing but then
> isn't really that in the eye of the beholder ?

I would guess it has to do with racism, at least at first
sight, not being that interesting to role play. I cannot quite
understand why someone would actively go out of their way to make a
race, class or creed of people miserable just for entertainment.
(Says a lot, if I can empathize with insect spirits. ;)

On the other hand, it has its place in ShadowRun. It's a part of
(meta)humanity.. a part which has been neglected, except for comic
relief. I think I'll have to correct that.

Soon.

Did I mention there's two elves in the team? One of them is such a
self - possessed ubermench kind of elf it's almost tragic (all
attributes max. Takes great pleasure from reading descriptions of
what high values in this or that attribute means.. loudly.) while the
other isn't that much better. They might expect that if they met
racists, they were just ordinary hicks thrown in for fun. Hm. Perhaps
they would be, at that... but not that kind of fun.

Hm.

I got a very nice idea....

The ubermench elf in question has a flashback triggered by glare.
So if some 'hicks' were out spotlighting elves, they 'might'
(As if certainly) flash him. If he goes spastic, they'll laugh, tie
him up and take him with them. If not, well, tough luck.

Anyone seen 'Pulp Fiction'? A certain cellar? 'I'm gonna go
medieval on your ass!' ring a bell? Yes? Ok, I won't have to
describe anything further, then. Let's just hope the rest of the team
notices he's gone before too many weeks pass.




--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 9
From: Morten Ax <run_over@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 01:01:53 -0800
>
> How come noone never ever pick Humanis contacts or other racists ?
> But it is OK to have members of ORC or MOM as contacts ?
<
> Could ofcause have to do with that whole good and evil thing but then
> isn't really that in the eye of the beholder ?

I think that this is the problem that no one wnats to be suspected of
being a racist.
And by the way my charachter's got a humanis contact(in fact he's a
humanis hitman)
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 10
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:42:10 -0500
At 02:58 AM 3/23/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Casanova wrote:
>> Was just thinking about this during the last gaming session.
>> How come no one never ever pick Humanis contacts or other racists ?
>> But it is OK to have members of ORC or MOM as contacts ?
>> Could ofcause have to do with that whole good and evil thing but then
>> isn't really that in the eye of the beholder ?
>
>I would guess it has to do with racism, at least at first
>sight, not being that interesting to role play. I cannot quite
>understand why someone would actively go out of their way to make a
>race, class or creed of people miserable just for entertainment.
>(Says a lot, if I can empathize with insect spirits. ;)

I suspect that you do know better, but racism isn't about entertainment. A
sadist hurts others for fun. A racist hurts other because that is what
they believe is just and right.

A racist can be raised that way ("that's what Poppa always said") or turned
that way ("Damn trogs killed my wife!"), but it's all about hate. Members
of the KKK/Humanis honestly believe that they are good people, killing
people that are devil-spawn, genetic monstrosities (and no, that last one
*isn't* just in reference to SR's metahumans) and so on. They have come to
believe, for whatever reason, that other people simply aren't pure, or
worthy, are deserving of life. And they don't see that as being wrong.

Which means, for SR, that this is the sort of thing that can add a lot of
spice and history for a PC or Contact. Unless you play your PC as a thug
always on the look out for an old trog to beat up rather than shadowrun, I
really see very little wrong with playing a character with Humanis
contacts, or even someone who is active in Humanis itself.

No, it's not nice. No, it's not politically correct. Yes, there are sure
to be complications (didn't someone say that they had a Humanis PC, and the
group's troll went and killed this guy's mom or something sick? If that
happened in my game, that troll would be seriously dead.)

But it also has great potential to make the game more interesting, even if
moral discussions and dilemmas are left out.

Erik J.


"Oh, the silent helicopters and the men in black fatigues? They're just my
car pool to work."
Message no. 11
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 01:07:51 +0000
Erik jameson wrote, in reply to what I wrote:
> >I would guess it has to do with racism, at least at first
> >sight, not being that interesting to role play. I cannot quite
> >understand why someone would actively go out of their way to make a
> >race, class or creed of people miserable just for entertainment.
> >(Says a lot, if I can empathize with insect spirits. ;)
>
> I suspect that you do know better, but racism isn't about entertainment. A
> sadist hurts others for fun. A racist hurts other because that is what
> they believe is just and right.

You suspect correctly. I put an easy face on it. It's easy to do.
Racism is complex, especially when mixed in with other things. Hate
is just one of them. Throw a feeling of inferiority, fear, arrogance,
or just plain malice into it, and it can get very ugly. And yes, I
can understand it. It depends on how ugly you want to get.

> A racist can be raised that way ("that's what Poppa always said") or turned
> that way ("Damn trogs killed my wife!"), but it's all about hate. Members
> of the KKK/Humanis honestly believe that they are good people, killing
> people that are devil-spawn, genetic monstrosities (and no, that last one
> *isn't* just in reference to SR's metahumans) and so on. They have come to
> believe, for whatever reason, that other people simply aren't pure, or
> worthy, are deserving of life. And they don't see that as being wrong.

This is true. I was watching Ricki Lake Show a while ago. On that
particular show, a few racists had their say. The whole nine yards -
'my purpose in life is to have as many pure kids as I can' and so on.
Ricki dealt with it in the same, shallow, entertaining way she deals
with everything else, of course, but still it was an eyeopener on how
hateful some people can be. And it wasn't even a conscious choice -
they had been raised, indoctrinated, that way. Whoever had done that
to them, would deserve *anything* .. except possibly vegemite.
There's other aspects - where extremism in one shape or another forms
a sort of 'brotherhood'. I can see the attraction of that, or the
comfort of knowing, really knowing, all these people are so inferior
to you. I have a slight problem with going from there to killing
them, but I'll work on it.

Returning to the question of SR racism. What is interesting is that
there *is* a clear difference between the races. Trolls *are* too
stupid to get real education, and is only suited for physical labor.
(At least if attributes has anything to say about it.). It would make
it easy to forget that they have a right to dignity and quality of
life anyway. It is extremely easy to see that it would lead to a
period of 'Humans only', 'No dogs or trogs allowed' and so on.
Academicians would debate, but it's John and Jane Doe that makes the
rules. And they would fear the 'monsters' walking the streets. There
would be enough violent incidents (At least if I read right about the
traumas of goblinization) that laws and regulations along those lines
would easily pass. So there is a lot of room for those that wish to
play on racism, explore it, as it is. It could be interesting, if
it was given a serious effort. Making it into a joke wouldn't sit
well with me, despite appearances.

That's one thing I like about the net. It's the great equalizer. It's
impossible to know if the person on the other end is male, female,
young, old, criminal or the president, gay or striaght for that
matter. Or if they are who they claim, or pretend, to be. Things like
that can be set aside. Take what they say at face value, instead of
their face's value. I don't care if Wyrmy is young. If he says
something worthwhile, I listen without discounting it as 'kid's
talk.'. So what if he calls himself the Wizard of Red and Green? I'm
Fade, and proud of it! (And yes, I've had an unbeatable monster red
and green deck. Even funnier was my red Mana Flare deck. Man was that
short duels. Didn't win half of'em but they sure were fun. ;)












--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 12
From: Wyrmy The Blue <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:04:54 -0600
> Take what they say at face value, instead of
> their face's value. I don't care if Wyrmy is young. If he says
> something worthwhile, I listen without discounting it as 'kid's
> talk.'. So what if he calls himself the Wizard of Red and Green? I'm
> Fade, and proud of it! (And yes, I've had an unbeatable monster red
> and green deck. Even funnier was my red Mana Flare deck. Man was that
> short duels. Didn't win half of'em but they sure were fun. ;)

I have said alot of stupid things on this list(probably more than I have
said in my life ;^)) but you guys accept me unbiased, and with open
arms.The internet is one of the Nicest places to be because nobody cares
what you look like,just what you say. and we all have our own
difference's of opinion, but that is what makes us unique. 3 days ago I
prefered Red and Green cards over All over, 15 minutes ago I prefered a
combination of Green/Black.I have made a final decision, and name
change, for ever(or at least until I change my mind again ;^)) but as
most people can tell from my posts, I am an easy going, Respectful, Most
definetly friendly(like when I greeted Bulls return To SRCard[Which I
was forced to Sighnoff from ;^( ]), I laugh at most jokes now(except
when I'm in a bad mood, in which case I get really mad),and when I Make
a really bad joke(like my god Character.Yall remember that dont
you?Double digit sorcery?)I apologize profusely,And I play magic.My
curent deck is a blue deck, while some cards are quite humorous, I put
htem in because I like the card.And I Dont discount adults as
"Geezers"(well Maybe Paulo ;^) Just kidding! Please dont kill me!), and
I take their advice seriously.I have many fdriends here, like:
K,Spike,Adam J,Gurth, bull,Tinner(resident master of the Dark side of
GMing),Kristling and ALL of the other list members.I read some of yall's
ot when I'm Sad, and make some of my own when I'm bored.We are like one
big happy family.
--
If you are a dreamer come in,
If you are a dreeamer, a wisher,
A liar, a magic jelly bean buyer,
Come In!
-What should be the motto of all internet users.
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:39:08 +0100
Fade said on 1:07/24 Mar 98...

> Returning to the question of SR racism. What is interesting is that
> there *is* a clear difference between the races. Trolls *are* too
> stupid to get real education, and is only suited for physical labor.

I'm not sure if you realize what you just typed... This is the kind of
attitude prevalent among many racists -- "All those damn [fill in the
blank] are only good for [whatever]"

> (At least if attributes has anything to say about it.).

Remember that Intelligence has much more to do with perceptive abilities
than with actual intelligence. Trolls don't notice things as easily as
humans do, but that doesn't make them stupid.

> That's one thing I like about the net. It's the great equalizer. It's
> impossible to know if the person on the other end is male, female,
> young, old, criminal or the president, gay or striaght for that
> matter. Or if they are who they claim, or pretend, to be. Things like
> that can be set aside. Take what they say at face value, instead of
> their face's value.

It's not always as easy as that, IMO. Previous experience with someone
colors your perceptions of them, and will influence the way you think
about their posts, even if they have something worthwhile to say.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Oost west, asbest.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 14
From: Benjamin Eriksen <benjamin.eriksen@******.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:34:40 +0100
At 23:56 20/03/98 +0100, you wrote:
>At 23:51 20/03/1998 +0000, you wrote:
>>Was just thinking about this durring the last gaming session.
>>
>>How come noone never ever pick Humanis contacts or other racists ?
>>But it is OK to have members of ORC or MOM as contacts ?
>>
>>Could ofcause have to do with that whole good and evil thing but then
>>isn't really that in the eye of the beholder ?
>>
>>Anyway ... just thinking away ...
>>
>>/Stefan
>*****
>Hya,
>
>Well, is this only with your group? Because I've had a player who was a
>racist himself (in a stereotypical way, bust still a racist)...oh, and the
>player himself ain't a racist. Admitted, it won't be often that you see
>someone playing a racist character... but it happens.. just as often as you
>see a male playing a female character.. well, maybe less often..
>
>CU'round,
>
>Jod
>
>
My character, Coriander (the runaway Ghost from TT) is a racist, though
not in a loud way. If there were an elven superiority club, he'd be
chairman. NOT a nice guy.
B.
Message no. 15
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:58:57 -0500
>>How come noone never ever pick Humanis contacts or other racists ?
>Well, is this only with your group? Because I've had a player who was a
>racist himself (in a stereotypical way, bust still a racist)...oh, and the
>player himself ain't a racist. Admitted, it won't be often that you see
>someone playing a racist character... but it happens.. just as often as you
>see a male playing a female character.. well, maybe less often..

Actually, I make it a point to alternate between playing male and
female characters. :-)

I haven't played any strong racists (just some casual stereotyping
basically), but a runner in our current group recently joined the
Humanis Policlub. Of course, the interesting bit is that he's a
dwarf... :-D

James Ojaste
Message no. 16
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:22:36 -0500
At 11:39 AM 3/24/98 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>Fade said on 1:07/24 Mar 98...
>
>> Returning to the question of SR racism. What is interesting is that
>> there *is* a clear difference between the races. Trolls *are* too
>> stupid to get real education, and is only suited for physical labor.
>
>I'm not sure if you realize what you just typed... This is the kind of
>attitude prevalent among many racists -- "All those damn [fill in the
>blank] are only good for [whatever]"

I think that was the point, Trolls _are_ dumber on average.

>
>> (At least if attributes has anything to say about it.).
>
>Remember that Intelligence has much more to do with perceptive abilities
>than with actual intelligence. Trolls don't notice things as easily as
>humans do, but that doesn't make them stupid.

I don't buy this, and never have. Intelligence is used as perception, yes,
but I think it is the interpretation of people who want to skirt sensitive
issues that has caused them to strip intelligence of it's meaning. Face
it, intelligence does not mean perception, it means intelligence.

>
>> That's one thing I like about the net. It's the great equalizer. It's
>> impossible to know if the person on the other end is male, female,
>> young, old, criminal or the president, gay or striaght for that
>> matter. Or if they are who they claim, or pretend, to be. Things like
>> that can be set aside. Take what they say at face value, instead of
>> their face's value.
>
>It's not always as easy as that, IMO. Previous experience with someone
>colors your perceptions of them, and will influence the way you think
>about their posts, even if they have something worthwhile to say.

Sure that is the case, but that isn't racism or prejudice. You have
instead made the decision that a particular person is
unintelligent/uniteresting, or whatever. Let's not get so PC that we start
to maintain that all people are equal in all ways. They aren't. There are
those whose opinion I value, and those I do not, and that is true for
anyone. The catch is to make that differentiation separate from blind
prejudice or racism, and not jump to conclusions, and that is where the net
is almost perfect. You only know what a person tells you, so you are
forced to make your decisions on what they say and how they present
themselves. You are prevented from deciding to ignore them simply because
they are ... <whatever>.

--DT
Message no. 17
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 20:19:21 -0500
On 24 Mar 98 at 17:22, David Thompson wrote:

> >Remember that Intelligence has much more to do with perceptive abilities
> >than with actual intelligence. Trolls don't notice things as easily as
> >humans do, but that doesn't make them stupid.
>
> I don't buy this, and never have. Intelligence is used as
> perception, yes, but I think it is the interpretation of people who
> want to skirt sensitive issues that has caused them to strip
> intelligence of it's meaning. Face it, intelligence does not mean
> perception, it means intelligence.

Oh really? Make a perception roll. What stat do you use? 'Nuff said.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
- DREKHEAD - |"Let's face it. Sometimes you're
- drekhead@***.net - | the pigeon, and sometimes
*-ShadowRN - GridSec Division-* | you're the statue."
"To Protect and To Serve" | -Unknown
=================================================================
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
Message no. 18
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 03:14:54 +0000
Drekhead wrote:
> > >Remember that Intelligence has much more to do with perceptive abilities
> > >than with actual intelligence. Trolls don't notice things as easily as
> > >humans do, but that doesn't make them stupid.
> >
> > I don't buy this, and never have. Intelligence is used as
> > perception, yes, but I think it is the interpretation of people who
> > want to skirt sensitive issues that has caused them to strip
> > intelligence of it's meaning. Face it, intelligence does not mean
> > perception, it means intelligence.
>
> Oh really? Make a perception roll. What stat do you use? 'Nuff said.

Here's my take on it. Intelligence is perception and quickness of
mind. (The processing power to deal with what your eyes see, so to
speak.). It is traditional intelligence in the sense that it affects
how fast you learn and pick up skills. That doesn't mean a character
with 1 int cannot start with 40 skill points, but in his background
he should have had to work a lot harder for them than a person with
high intelligence. On the other side of the coin, people with 6
intelligence wouldn't necessarily have bothered spending so much time
learning skills.

We've been through this discussion before. It won't be going
anywhere. I wouldn't have posted on the subject at all if someone
hadn't had the temerity to accuse me of being a racist for saying
trolls would generally be less intelligent. Well, now you know what I
meant with the statement.
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 19
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:27:51 -0500
At 08:19 PM 3/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On 24 Mar 98 at 17:22, David Thompson wrote:
>
>> >Remember that Intelligence has much more to do with perceptive abilities
>> >than with actual intelligence. Trolls don't notice things as easily as
>> >humans do, but that doesn't make them stupid.
>>
>> I don't buy this, and never have. Intelligence is used as
>> perception, yes, but I think it is the interpretation of people who
>> want to skirt sensitive issues that has caused them to strip
>> intelligence of it's meaning. Face it, intelligence does not mean
>> perception, it means intelligence.
>
>Oh really? Make a perception roll. What stat do you use? 'Nuff said.

Hmm.. let's see, Body, no; Quickness, no; Strength, no; Charisma, no;
Intelligence... maybe; Willpower, no. Okay, we'll have to settle on the
stat we call intelligence.

Intelligence:
"Intelligence represents overall quickness of mind, aptitude, and the
ability to perceive surroundings." Pg. 42 BBB. It then says a stupid
character would have low skills, not low intelligence. This seems to imply
that SR is using the stat intelligence as a sort of average of both
intelligence and perception. I think we can agree, however, that someone
with a low intelligence by SR's definition is more than just unperceptive.
They would have a slow wit, and little aptitude. (But would not
necessarily be stupid, unless they had low skills. With little aptitude,
however, how does one acquire many skills?)
My view is that a low intelligence stat means dumb, if you don't feel that
way, that's fine.

There is other source material that points to Trolls being actually stupid,
and not just unperceptive. It's in the tone of a lot that is written, and
there is also something, I don't know which book, that talks about that
European troll kingdom where the king is researching the use of
bioware/cyberware (and maybe magic) to help trolls overcome their natural
limits so they can be educated (implying I think lack of mental ability
rather than simply correcting their habit of not noticing when the
professor is writing something on the board).

Basically, the other stats are how strong, how quick, how charismatic, how
strong willed, what kind of physical endurance. How smart is the obvious
next question, not just how likely to notice whether Mr. Johnson has an
overbite.

I agree that an intelligence stat is a sticky issue, and perhaps better
left out, but it is still an obvious thing to include, and perhaps
unfortunately was.

--DT
Message no. 20
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:19:42 -0500
On 24 Mar 98 at 21:27, David Thompson wrote:

> "Intelligence represents overall quickness of mind, aptitude, and
> the ability to perceive surroundings." Pg. 42 BBB. It then says a
> stupid character would have low skills, not low intelligence. This
> seems to imply that SR is using the stat intelligence as a sort of
> average of both intelligence and perception. I think we can agree,
> however, that someone with a low intelligence by SR's definition is
> more than just unperceptive. They would have a slow wit, and little
> aptitude. (But would not necessarily be stupid, unless they had low
> skills. With little aptitude, however, how does one acquire many
> skills?) My view is that a low intelligence stat means dumb, if you
> don't feel that way, that's fine.

"Low intelligence does not mean stupidity...", pg. 15 SR Companion.
Actually, the explanation of the Intelligence attribute on that page
is probably the best one I've seen. It also explains why trolls
are perceived as "dumb", not because they are stupid, but because
they are slow. They can comprehend things and understand things, but
it takes them several tries. One of the novels, Changeling, explained
it as "thinking through a fog". I think that is fitting.

--

-----------------------------------------------------------------
- DREKHEAD - |"Let's face it. Sometimes you're
- drekhead@***.net - | the pigeon, and sometimes
*-ShadowRN - GridSec Division-* | you're the statue."
"To Protect and To Serve" | -Unknown
=================================================================
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
Message no. 21
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:37:50 +0100
David Thompson said on 17:22/24 Mar 98...

> I don't buy this, and never have. Intelligence is used as perception, yes,
> but I think it is the interpretation of people who want to skirt sensitive
> issues that has caused them to strip intelligence of it's meaning. Face
> it, intelligence does not mean perception, it means intelligence.

Then why is it that 99 out of 100 Intelligence tests are made to see if a
character spots something, not if they can solve a problem? Or perhaps
that's just a peculiarity of the game I run...

> >It's not always as easy as that, IMO. Previous experience with someone
> >colors your perceptions of them, and will influence the way you think
> >about their posts, even if they have something worthwhile to say.
>
> Sure that is the case, but that isn't racism or prejudice.

I never said it was, though it _can_ be, for instance if someone posts
like an idiot the first few times you might draw the conclusion he or she
is an idiot, and not look at any more posts from that person.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Oost west, asbest.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 22
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:02:12 -0500
At 11:37 AM 3/25/98 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>David Thompson said on 17:22/24 Mar 98...
>
>> I don't buy this, and never have. Intelligence is used as perception, yes,
>> but I think it is the interpretation of people who want to skirt sensitive
>> issues that has caused them to strip intelligence of it's meaning. Face
>> it, intelligence does not mean perception, it means intelligence.
>
>Then why is it that 99 out of 100 Intelligence tests are made to see if a
>character spots something, not if they can solve a problem? Or perhaps
>that's just a peculiarity of the game I run...

I'm missing you point now? Are you linking intelligence (mental aptitude,
quickness of mind, whatever) with perception. If so, I don't disagree,
that is exactly whay I'm trying to say, but that intelligence is more than
just perception, even if perception is a factor.

>
>> >It's not always as easy as that, IMO. Previous experience with someone
>> >colors your perceptions of them, and will influence the way you think
>> >about their posts, even if they have something worthwhile to say.
>>
>> Sure that is the case, but that isn't racism or prejudice.
>
>I never said it was, though it _can_ be, for instance if someone posts
>like an idiot the first few times you might draw the conclusion he or she
>is an idiot, and not look at any more posts from that person.

Yeah, but that is on an individual case-by-case basis, and they pretty much
deserved the response anyway. But, I guess you're right. I think that
would fall under my "don't jump to conclusions" statement. Maybe append a
"give them a second chance," and you've eliminated most of the problem.

--DT
Message no. 23
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:04:29 +1000
> >Then why is it that 99 out of 100 Intelligence tests are made to see if a
> >character spots something, not if they can solve a problem? Or perhaps
> >that's just a peculiarity of the game I run...
>
> I'm missing you point now? Are you linking intelligence (mental aptitude,
> quickness of mind, whatever) with perception. If so, I don't disagree,
> that is exactly whay I'm trying to say, but that intelligence is more than
> just perception, even if perception is a factor.

I think what Gurth's trying to say that the game really only uses
Intelligence for Perception, in a game mechanics sense. How often do you
make perception tests compared with how often you make intelligence
tests to see if you can remember something or extrapolate something?
Exactly. Whether or not intelligence is -meant- to be more than
perception, as a game stat that's generally all it gets used for.

Lady Jestyr

- I'm in touch with my Inner Klingon... -
| Elle Holmes | jestyr@**********.com | http://jestyr.home.ml.org |
| Shadowrun Webring Ringmaster | GeoCities Leader | RPGA Reviewer |
Message no. 24
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:25:02 -0500
At 12:04 PM 3/26/98 +1000, Lady Jestyr wrote:
>> Gurth wrote:
>> >Then why is it that 99 out of 100 Intelligence tests are made to see if a
>> >character spots something, not if they can solve a problem? Or perhaps
>> >that's just a peculiarity of the game I run...
>>
>> I'm missing you point now? Are you linking intelligence (mental aptitude,
>> quickness of mind, whatever) with perception. If so, I don't disagree,
>> that is exactly whay I'm trying to say, but that intelligence is more than
>> just perception, even if perception is a factor.
>
>I think what Gurth's trying to say that the game really only uses
>Intelligence for Perception, in a game mechanics sense. How often do you
>make perception tests compared with how often you make intelligence
>tests to see if you can remember something or extrapolate something?
>Exactly. Whether or not intelligence is -meant- to be more than
>perception, as a game stat that's generally all it gets used for.
>

I'm sorry, I was confused by "Intelligence Tests" because someone just
emailed me off the list talking about IQ tests (like in RL). I see Gurth's
point, but is the body attribute only for stopping bullets. Is Willpower
only for resisting mana bolts. Not really, that is just what the stat is
most frequently used for. Intelligence is also part of both Reaction and
Combat Pool (whether that reflects smarts or perception, I couldn't say),
but the fact that in a game intelligence is most often rolled for
perception doesn't really mean anything except that it encompasses
perception (which I'm not disputing). But, is the fact that the number of
foci is limited to intelligence mean that it is perception that is the
limiting factor. I don't think shamans and mages are losing their spare
power foci, there is something more than just perception involved.

Basically, I think many of the FASA statments on the subject are
contradictory. They say that low intelligence is not dumb, it just means
slower of wit, less mental aptitude, and an inability to comprehend as
quickly. Sure, okay. Fine. I think that pretty much sums up what I think
of when I try to come up for a definition of stupid. If you'd rather call
intelligence perception, that is probably a good idea, because as it is, I
don't think you can take the smarts out of the stat.

--DT
Message no. 25
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 05:04:04 +0000
>I think what Gurth's trying to say that the game really only uses
>Intelligence for Perception, in a game mechanics sense. How often
>do you make perception tests compared with how often you make
>intelligence tests to see if you can remember something or
>extrapolate something? Exactly. Whether or not intelligence is
> -meant- to be more than perception, as a game stat that's generally
>all it gets used for.

That, and defaulting to knowledge and technical skills.

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 26
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:11:56 +0100
David Thompson said on 18:02/25 Mar 98...

> I'm missing you point now? Are you linking intelligence (mental aptitude,
> quickness of mind, whatever) with perception. If so, I don't disagree,
> that is exactly whay I'm trying to say, but that intelligence is more than
> just perception, even if perception is a factor.

That's basically my opinion too, it's just that I get the impression you
see Intelligence as mental aptitude with a bit of perceptive ability
thrown in for good measure, and I see it as being the other way around.
Let's leave it at "both are valid interpretations," okay?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Oost west, asbest.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 27
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:27:29 -0500
At 11:11 AM 3/26/98 +0100, Gurth wrote:

>That's basically my opinion too, it's just that I get the impression you
>see Intelligence as mental aptitude with a bit of perceptive ability
>thrown in for good measure, and I see it as being the other way around.
>Let's leave it at "both are valid interpretations," okay?

Sure, sounds good. I just disagree with the statement that intelligence as
written is _only_ perception.

--DT
Message no. 28
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:51:11 +0000
On 24 Mar 98 at 17:22, David Thompson wrote:

> At 11:39 AM 3/24/98 +0100, Gurth wrote:
> >I'm not sure if you realize what you just typed... This is the kind of
> >attitude prevalent among many racists -- "All those damn [fill in the
> >blank] are only good for [whatever]"
>
> I think that was the point, Trolls _are_ dumber on average.

Wait a second. Are they really dumber then the average by nature, because
they underwent the UGE or because noone cares about their education?
I want to tell you a story: Not that long ago, I made some research about
IQs. I was looking for extreme values and one time ran across a table with
lots of different IQs and a classification on who would have such an
intelligence (e.g. the average MIT graduate is at 138, just two points
below genius). As you can imagine, these studies were American (though I
did find stuff about Holl^H^H^H^H^H the Netherlands...) and at 85 I found a
very interesting note: "Black US average". Now, I don't believe in racial
rffect on intelligence and stuff like that.
To proof my point (and that I'm right!) the average African scored 75. Now
the "Black US average" is not far away from an African. What gives the 10
point difference? Education. The Black US average gets a much better
education than the average African. Or even better: Black children in
Boston (as noted in another study) have an average IQ of 100.
So, are these different "races" or just people with different environment?


Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 29
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:51:11 +0000
On 26 Mar 98 at 12:04, Lady Jestyr wrote:

> I think what Gurth's trying to say that the game really only uses
> Intelligence for Perception, in a game mechanics sense. How often do you
> make perception tests compared with how often you make intelligence
> tests to see if you can remember something or extrapolate something?
> Exactly. Whether or not intelligence is -meant- to be more than
> perception, as a game stat that's generally all it gets used for.

Well, that's a common problem in RPGs. Intelligence would replace the
player ("Make an intelligence-test to figure out how to break in") and thus
make the game rather pointless. To me, intelligence is an indicator for the
player to know how intelligent he has to play the PC.

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 30
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:23:17 -0500
At 04:51 PM 3/27/98 +0000, you wrote:

>Wait a second. Are they really dumber then the average by nature, because
>they underwent the UGE or because noone cares about their education?
>I want to tell you a story: Not that long ago, I made some research about
>IQs. I was looking for extreme values and one time ran across a table with
>lots of different IQs and a classification on who would have such an
>intelligence (e.g. the average MIT graduate is at 138, just two points
>below genius). As you can imagine, these studies were American (though I
>did find stuff about Holl^H^H^H^H^H the Netherlands...) and at 85 I found a
>very interesting note: "Black US average". Now, I don't believe in racial
>rffect on intelligence and stuff like that.
>To proof my point (and that I'm right!) the average African scored 75. Now
>the "Black US average" is not far away from an African. What gives the 10
>point difference? Education. The Black US average gets a much better
>education than the average African. Or even better: Black children in
>Boston (as noted in another study) have an average IQ of 100.
>So, are these different "races" or just people with different environment?

I have to wonder about those IQ tests. It's true that many tests do
reflect education; there has been a major drive to try to make a "true"
intelligence test that doesn't reflect education or cultural differences.
Doubt that will happen any time soon.

But anyway, you forget perhaps the most critical element that causes those
differences in average; environment and specifically, nutrition.

If the developing child doesn't have adequate nutrition, the brain cannot
develop as healthy as the brain that has the nutrition it needs. That's
perhaps the biggest reason why IQ scores in ghettos will differ from the IQ
scores in gltizy uptown. The poor simply can't feed themselves and their
children adequately. And when you think of the horrors of Africa, like
Rwanda, Sudan, Chad, Ethiopia, etc...no wonder test scores are so low.
Feed those children and they are just as bright as anyone else.

Then factor in cultural and familial bias against education and you've got
a major problem.

Now, the other side of the same coin; don't totally dismiss the concept of
there being real differences in IQ between "races." Hang on a second, let
me finish. It's been shown that the average black man has a higher
percentage of fast-twitch muscle fibers than the average caucasian man.
That means that the average black man should be just a *fraction* faster in
a sprint; and that the average caucasian should have just a *fraction* more
endurance in distance events.

We also know that men and women just tend to think differently, probably
because of hormonal differences, which physically alters the brain.

There have been other studies that indicate that the average person of one
race or sex is just a touch better than another race or sex in one task or
another. It is *conceivable* that there could be a "true" (i.e., minus
cultural and education differences) average of IQ between peoples. I
seriously doubt anything like this would show a difference of greater than
5 points or so, but it is *possible.*

If we extrapolate to SR in 205X, it is very possible that there are some
differences between the average troll "true" IQ and the average
human/elf/dwarf "true" IQ. This isn't being racist or cruel, but rational.

Of course, no matter how stupid a troll may be, I sure as hell wouldn't
want to be the one to tell it in a dark alley by myself...

Erik J.


"What was that popping sound?"

"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
Message no. 31
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Humanis Contacts
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 23:52:19 +0000
On 27 Mar 98 at 13:23, Erik Jameson wrote:

> At 04:51 PM 3/27/98 +0000, you wrote:

[Snipped my IQ-stuff]

> I have to wonder about those IQ tests. It's true that many tests do
> reflect education; there has been a major drive to try to make a "true"
> intelligence test that doesn't reflect education or cultural differences.
> Doubt that will happen any time soon.

I've seen some stuff about itelligence/reaction, which is supposed be
measure the "true" intelligence. www.brain.com, IIRC. It's all English, so
people with other native languages won't get nearly as high results as they
should (hey, I still scored 117! ;))


> But anyway, you forget perhaps the most critical element that causes those
> differences in average; environment and specifically, nutrition.
[Snipped nutrition-stuff]

Good point. (Actually a VERY good point)

> Now, the other side of the same coin; don't totally dismiss the concept of
> there being real differences in IQ between "races." Hang on a second, let
> me finish.

I'm not going to stop you.

> It's been shown that the average black man has a higher
> percentage of fast-twitch muscle fibers than the average caucasian man.
> That means that the average black man should be just a *fraction* faster in
> a sprint; and that the average caucasian should have just a *fraction* more
> endurance in distance events.
>
> We also know that men and women just tend to think differently, probably
> because of hormonal differences, which physically alters the brain.
>
> There have been other studies that indicate that the average person of one
> race or sex is just a touch better than another race or sex in one task or
> another. It is *conceivable* that there could be a "true" (i.e., minus
> cultural and education differences) average of IQ between peoples. I
> seriously doubt anything like this would show a difference of greater than
> 5 points or so, but it is *possible.*

OK, I'll give you the 5 points. But that's actually not very much.

> If we extrapolate to SR in 205X, it is very possible that there are some
> differences between the average troll "true" IQ and the average
> human/elf/dwarf "true" IQ. This isn't being racist or cruel, but rational.

Well, that's true. Personally I prefere the theory that it's because they
underwent UGE.
We simply cannot say what's true, as we have chance to do some tests with
orks or trolls. But today, we can do tests with people and there are no
studies I know of that indicate that there is a difference in how the brain
is built between the races.

> Of course, no matter how stupid a troll may be, I sure as hell wouldn't
> want to be the one to tell it in a dark alley by myself...

Well, if you're lucky, he'll just laugh at you and hand you his SIN,
reading "Prof. Michael Willson, Renraku Computer Engeneering"...
Hey, you never know... ;)

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Further Reading

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