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Message no. 1
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:09:43 +0000
> From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
> Subject: Re: Questions about stuff

> Here's a question I just thought of: How easy should it be for a
> character to identify a weapon (not concealed), and then, how much should
> they know about it? There's no skill called weapon ID and even if there
> was, I don't think anyone would take it.

I'd base the target number on the street index of the weapon in
question, using the B/R skill. (that's right, you gotta go over that
dot) Just add, say, 3 to the street index. Looks good to me.
Nothing like making up rules on the fly. <BG>


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 2
From: "Falin \"Dark-Claw\"" <jhyatt@****.WINCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 00:13:32 -0500
> From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
> Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
>
> > From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
> > Subject: Re: Questions about stuff
>
> > Here's a question I just thought of: How easy should it be for a
> > character to identify a weapon (not concealed), and then, how much
should
> > they know about it? There's no skill called weapon ID and even if
there
> > was, I don't think anyone would take it.
>
> I'd base the target number on the street index of the weapon in
> question, using the B/R skill. (that's right, you gotta go over that
> dot) Just add, say, 3 to the street index. Looks good to me.
> Nothing like making up rules on the fly. <BG>

Why not use the availability times the street index that way you don't
have to add anything. This gives a target number of 2 against the
character firearms B/R skill or 4 against Firearms skill. the HK-227
would have tn# of 3 / 5, but to tell the HK-227 S varient from the
other would have tn# of 20 / 22 hard to tell the difference but can
identify the main weapon, then only let the characters that tell roll
their intelligence to see if they remember the stats for the gun if
they succeed then they can look in the book otherwise they are off
limits.
Message no. 3
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 10:58:04 +1100
On Thu, 9 Jan 1997, Falin "Dark-Claw" wrote:

> > From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
> > Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
> >
> > > From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
> > > Subject: Re: Questions about stuff
> >
> > > Here's a question I just thought of: How easy should it be for a
> > > character to identify a weapon (not concealed), and then, how much
> should
> > > they know about it? There's no skill called weapon ID and even if
> there
> > > was, I don't think anyone would take it.
> >
> > I'd base the target number on the street index of the weapon in
> > question, using the B/R skill. (that's right, you gotta go over that
> > dot) Just add, say, 3 to the street index. Looks good to me.
> > Nothing like making up rules on the fly. <BG>
>
> Why not use the availability times the street index that way you don't
> have to add anything. This gives a target number of 2 against the
> character firearms B/R skill or 4 against Firearms skill. the HK-227
> would have tn# of 3 / 5, but to tell the HK-227 S varient from the
> other would have tn# of 20 / 22 hard to tell the difference but can
> identify the main weapon, then only let the characters that tell roll
> their intelligence to see if they remember the stats for the gun if
> they succeed then they can look in the book otherwise they are off
> limits.
>
Well, shouldn't there be a modifier for the fact that quite a few weapons
look similar. Take the HK227 and the HK227s - it looks virtually exactly
the same. Actually, I suppose we do the standard thing where we describe
the weapon in detail according to the number of successes. OK, I just
solved my own problems just by babbling.

Back to your point though, I think the TN is just a little bit too low,
though I can see how the (avail x street index) TN can make sense. Opinions?

Shaman
Message no. 4
From: The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 11:09:37 +1100
> Back to your point though, I think the TN is just a little bit too low,
> though I can see how the (avail x street index) TN can make sense. Opinions?

I think it's fair enough - bearing in mind those TNs are for people with
Firearms/Firearms B/R skill; they're expected to know at least a bit about
guns (in the latter case, a lot).

I'd also let someone roll (with no penalty) off Military Theory,
Leadership, Tactics or some other skill like those three.

Lady Jestyr

--------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
--------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.oz.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
--------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:16:00 +1100
On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, The Jestyr wrote:

> > Back to your point though, I think the TN is just a little bit too low,
> > though I can see how the (avail x street index) TN can make sense. Opinions?
>
> I think it's fair enough - bearing in mind those TNs are for people with
> Firearms/Firearms B/R skill; they're expected to know at least a bit about
> guns (in the latter case, a lot).

But isn't the amount they know already reflected in their skill rating in
the respective skills?

>
> I'd also let someone roll (with no penalty) off Military Theory,
> Leadership, Tactics or some other skill like those three.

Not too sure about Leadership and tactics though.

Shaman
Message no. 6
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 01:20:01 +0000
In message <Pine.BSF.3.95.970110110735.29857B-
100000@*******.dialix.com.au>, The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
writes
>> Back to your point though, I think the TN is just a little bit too low,
>> though I can see how the (avail x street index) TN can make sense. Opinions?
>
>I think it's fair enough - bearing in mind those TNs are for people with
>Firearms/Firearms B/R skill; they're expected to know at least a bit about
>guns (in the latter case, a lot).
>
>I'd also let someone roll (with no penalty) off Military Theory,
>Leadership, Tactics or some other skill like those three.

Bear in mind that Street Index/Availability indicates _desirability_ as
well as "have I seen that?"

For instance, the Ares HVAR might be as rare as hen's teeth in your
game, yet every hero in "Fireteam Cherokee" or "ShadowStrike" on the
trideo carries one.

Compare recognition of MP-5s and Uzis and Beretts 92s (the best-known
weapons thanks to the Lethal Weapon/Die Hard series) over here, to your
chances of obtaining one illegally. Admittedly most British citizens
have trouble getting past "a gun", but while many people might know the
name "Kalashnikov" their chance of correctly identifiying an AK or clone
are negligible.

I'd base it off Firearms skill myself, for simplicity's sake. If you
love guns, your general Firearms skill is your ability to use them,
which includes trivia like "where's the safety catch?", "is it 'safe,
single, full-auto or safe, full-auto, single'"? and "it's jammed, how do
I clear it?" Since all of that is so weapon specific I'd put it under
the general Firearms skill.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 11:58:53 +0100
Calvin Hsieh said on 10:58/10 Jan 97...

> Well, shouldn't there be a modifier for the fact that quite a few weapons
> look similar. Take the HK227 and the HK227s - it looks virtually exactly
> the same.

That's where knowledge really comes in. I'm pretty sure you can identify
an M16 because you've seen a lot of them on TV (just watch a Vietnam
movie), but do you know the external differences between an M16A1 and
M16A2? (Triangular vs. round handguard, different pistol grip, etc.) The
same thing would happen with the HK 227: if they're on the trid enough,
just about everybody will know that's an HK 227 you're carrying, but only
those with some background knowledge will be able to spot you're actually
carrying the suppressed HK 227S version rather than the standard HK 227.

> Back to your point though, I think the TN is just a little bit too low,
> though I can see how the (avail x street index) TN can make sense.
> Opinions?

That would work if the only way you encountered weapons is through seeing
them in other peoples' hands. However, there are LOADS of books for
military and weapon researchers/enthusiasts today that have good pictures
of weapons, and allow people who've never seen *any* gun up close to
identify obscure weapons anyway. (I should know, I'm an example of
this...)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Why are these dudes all dressed up in white?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 8
From: ken webb <hbphy009@*****.CSUN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:04:34 -0800
> Calvin Hsieh said on 10:58/10 Jan 97...
>
> > Well, shouldn't there be a modifier for the fact that quite a few weapons
> > look similar. Take the HK227 and the HK227s - it looks virtually exactly
> > the same.

On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Gurth wrote:

> same thing would happen with the HK 227: if they're on the trid enough,
> just about everybody will know that's an HK 227 you're carrying, but only
> those with some background knowledge will be able to spot you're actually
> carrying the suppressed HK 227S version rather than the standard HK 227.
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

I seem to remember looking into what the difference was between the HK227
and HK227s. I believe the "s" stood for an integral smartgun link rather
than suppression. The only way you can tell the two apart would be to
look for the palm connection on the grip. It was so you wouldn't have to
buy the smartgun adaptor.

--
--________________________________________________________________________--
'Kenneth M. Webb | Geek} GS d->+ s:-- a-- C++ HLU+ P? L++ E W N++ '
'hbphy009@*****.csun.edu| Code} K- w(--) O- M V-- !PS PE Y+ PGP? t 5 X+ '
'Physics & Shadowrun | v3.0} R+ tv+ b++ DI? D++ G e++ h? r--- y** '
''''''''''''''''''''''''^'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Message no. 9
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 11:04:34 +1100
On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, ken webb wrote:

SNIP

>
> I seem to remember looking into what the difference was between the HK227
> and HK227s. I believe the "s" stood for an integral smartgun link rather
> than suppression. The only way you can tell the two apart would be to
> look for the palm connection on the grip. It was so you wouldn't have to
> buy the smartgun adaptor.

Nope. The s variant is the silent version. With no gas venting.

Shaman
Message no. 10
From: ken webb <hbphy009@*****.CSUN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 18:30:18 -0800
On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Shaman wrote:
>
> Nope. The s variant is the silent version. With no gas venting.

Yeah, I was confused and I didn't have the book with me at the time I
wrote that. What I was thinking of was when the SSC first came out, I
couldn't figure out the difference between the Predator and the Predator
II (the internal smartlink.) I kept looking at the stats instead of the
description. It was so long ago, I forgot which gun caused the confusion.

--
--________________________________________________________________________--
'Kenneth M. Webb | Geek} GS d->+ s:-- a-- C++ HLU+ P? L++ E W N++ '
'hbphy009@*****.csun.edu| Code} K- w(--) O- M V-- !PS PE Y+ PGP? t 5 X+ '
'Physics & Shadowrun | v3.0} R+ tv+ b++ DI? D++ G e++ h? r--- y** '
''''''''''''''''''''''''^'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Message no. 11
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 20:43:58 EST
On Fri, 10 Jan 1997 12:04:34 -0800 ken webb <hbphy009@*****.CSUN.EDU>
writes:
>> Calvin Hsieh said on 10:58/10 Jan 97...
>I seem to remember looking into what the difference was between the
>HK227
>and HK227s. I believe the "s" stood for an integral smartgun link
>rather
>than suppression. The only way you can tell the two apart would be to
>look for the palm connection on the grip. It was so you wouldn't have
>to
>buy the smartgun adaptor.
>
Huh? No, I think you're mistaken. As I recall (going by memory, but...)
the SR2 manual said that the HK227S had a suppressor instead of a Gas
Vent 3 (worth 2 points recoil compensation). And if Gurth says that there
was also a difference in fire modes, I believe him. I think you're
mistaken because a lot of people use the -S designation on house firearms
to designate smart capability.

Canthros-the-shapeshifter-mage
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 12:07:58 +0100
ken webb said on 18:30/10 Jan 97...

> Yeah, I was confused and I didn't have the book with me at the time I
> wrote that. What I was thinking of was when the SSC first came out, I
> couldn't figure out the difference between the Predator and the Predator
> II (the internal smartlink.) I kept looking at the stats instead of the
> description. It was so long ago, I forgot which gun caused the confusion.

It was easier back in first edition -- the Predator had a 10-round clip,
the Predator II had 15 rounds. Then some pages later there were 15-round
clips for the Predator too (not II :) which then got introduced as
standard in the SRII main book.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Any two can play.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 13
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:59:52 +0000
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns

> movie), but do you know the external differences between an M16A1 and
> M16A2? (Triangular vs. round handguard, different pistol grip, etc.) The

Lesse...been a few years now....the pistol grip, handguards, forward
assist, brass deflector, 3rnd burst vs. full auto, 7:1 vs 6:1
rifling, barrel weight, rear sight adjustment, and flash suppressor.
I think that's everything other than the range going from 300m to
350m point and 800m area.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 14
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:59:51 +0000
> From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
> Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns

> I'd base it off Firearms skill myself, for simplicity's sake. If you
> love guns, your general Firearms skill is your ability to use them,
> which includes trivia like "where's the safety catch?", "is it 'safe,
> single, full-auto or safe, full-auto, single'"? and "it's jammed, how do
> I clear it?" Since all of that is so weapon specific I'd put it under
> the general Firearms skill.

Nope, can't base it on Firearms because someone with a Firearms B/R
skill will be a hell of a lot more familiar with weapons. Remember
that even though the firearms skill covers all weapons, most people
only fire (and thus are really familiar with) a select few. You may
know most basic weapons on sight, but an armorer would be more likely
to differentiate between specific versions/models.

BTW....I can see using this as a general ruling for any type of
equipment, be it assault cannon, swords, or cars.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 15
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:59:51 +0000
> From: The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
> Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns

> I'd also let someone roll (with no penalty) off Military Theory,
> Leadership, Tactics or some other skill like those three.

Military Theory I'd allow with the +2 TN. The other skills do not
really cross into that catagory and even Military Theory is too
general for such a test.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 16
From: Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 00:19:11 -0800
Droopy wrote:
>
> > From: The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
> > Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
>
> > I'd also let someone roll (with no penalty) off Military Theory,
> > Leadership, Tactics or some other skill like those three.
>
> Military Theory I'd allow with the +2 TN. The other skills do not
> really cross into that catagory and even Military Theory is too
> general for such a test.
>

I'd say firearms at no penalty, assuming you have time to examine it,
otherwise a penalty based on how rushed the circumstances are. You
don't get a 6 in general firearms without both broad expierience and
interest.
Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 12:53:31 +0100
Droopy said on 23:59/13 Jan 97...

> > movie), but do you know the external differences between an M16A1 and
> > M16A2? (Triangular vs. round handguard, different pistol grip, etc.) The
>
> Lesse...been a few years now....the pistol grip, handguards, forward
> assist, brass deflector, 3rnd burst vs. full auto, 7:1 vs 6:1
> rifling, barrel weight, rear sight adjustment, and flash suppressor.

Not quite... the bolt forward assist was already on the M16A1 (introduced
after jamming problems with the M16 in Vietnam), and by "flash suppressor"
you mean they tried to turn it into a muzzle brake, right?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Vliegen met die hap!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 18
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 19:20:33 +0000
> From: Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
> Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns

> I'd say firearms at no penalty, assuming you have time to examine it,
> otherwise a penalty based on how rushed the circumstances are. You
> don't get a 6 in general firearms without both broad expierience and
> interest.

But its a general interest. Enough to ID the weapon, but not
necessarily enough to know it's specs. (example....how many people
out there know the round that an AK-74, AK-47, and a SVD each takes?)
Two of those weapons look almost identical and two take what appear
to be similar rounds at first glance at the numbers.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 19
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 19:20:33 +0000
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Organization: Plastic Warriors
> Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns

> > Lesse...been a few years now....the pistol grip, handguards, forward
> > assist, brass deflector, 3rnd burst vs. full auto, 7:1 vs 6:1
> > rifling, barrel weight, rear sight adjustment, and flash suppressor.
>
> Not quite... the bolt forward assist was already on the M16A1 (introduced

But it was changed on the A2. A minor difference, yes, but one we
had to know for guard mount.

> after jamming problems with the M16 in Vietnam), and by "flash suppressor"
> you mean they tried to turn it into a muzzle brake, right?

Yep.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 20
From: Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 00:07:34 -0800
Droopy wrote:
>
> But its a general interest. Enough to ID the weapon, but not
> necessarily enough to know it's specs. (example....how many people
> out there know the round that an AK-74, AK-47, and a SVD each takes?)
> Two of those weapons look almost identical and two take what appear
> to be similar rounds at first glance at the numbers.
>

How many people rationally have a firearms of six, (IRL it would be more
likely for people to have a low general and several concs or specs, but
SR doesn't work that way) But making it BR works- it makes some
assumptions though that to ID a gun you would have to be able to make
one from scratch the targets for BR should be very low, just as most
people can care for their weapons technically BR, but more likely
defaulting from firearms.
Message no. 21
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 12:46:08 +0100
Droopy said on 19:20/15 Jan 97...

> But its a general interest. Enough to ID the weapon, but not
> necessarily enough to know it's specs. (example....how many people
> out there know the round that an AK-74, AK-47, and a SVD each takes?)

I do...

> Two of those weapons look almost identical and two take what appear
> to be similar rounds at first glance at the numbers.

Not to mention they can easily be confused with other rounds of almost
similar dimensions. It can make a nice tool to tease players with...
"Yeah, you now got your new Cillum-4ME, but it came without ammo."
"I call my fixer and buy 500 assault rifle rounds off him."
"It's now a day later, and you've got the ammo you asked for."
"Cool! I load it into the clips of my Cillum-4ME!"
"You try, but they don't fit... You should have specified the caliber
*evil GM grin*"

Only to be used with troublesome players, of course...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I feel better, having screamed on you.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 22
From: Michael Orion Jackson <orion@****.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 07:15:40 -0600
On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Gurth wrote:

> Droopy said on 19:20/15 Jan 97...
>
> > But its a general interest. Enough to ID the weapon, but not
> > necessarily enough to know it's specs. (example....how many people
> > out there know the round that an AK-74, AK-47, and a SVD each takes?)
>
> I do...
>
AK-74 takes 5.45 mm Bloc, "AK-47" (most likely an AKM, as that weapon
replaced the AK-47 quite some time ago, now it is in the B and C category
mobilization divisions, having been replaced in the A divisions with
the AK-74) takes 7.62mm Short (39mm length, if I recall correctly), SVD
sniper rifle takes 7.62mm Long.

>
> Two of those weapons look almost identical and two take what appear
> to be similar rounds at first glance at the numbers.
>
Well, the SVD is very easy to distinguish in a crowd. ;) It looks like it
feel out of a Star Wars movie, sort of, and it is quite elongated. The
AK-74 has a longer, leaner look than the AKM (but you're right, they do
appear very similer). If close inspection is possible you could tell a
noticible difference in barrel diameters...

> Not to mention they can easily be confused with other rounds of almost
> similar dimensions. It can make a nice tool to tease players with...
> "Yeah, you now got your new Cillum-4ME, but it came without ammo."
> "I call my fixer and buy 500 assault rifle rounds off him."
> "It's now a day later, and you've got the ammo you asked for."
> "Cool! I load it into the clips of my Cillum-4ME!"
> "You try, but they don't fit... You should have specified the caliber
> *evil GM grin*"
>
> Only to be used with troublesome players, of course...
>
Good idea, but technically, the guns in the SR universe all use
interchangeable ammunition within their individual classes (i.e. a
Savalette (sp?) for FoF and an Ares Predator II from the SSC both fire the
same rounds. It could be argued that the magazines are shaped differenly,
but in theory (according to the rules as I recall them in my admittedly
hazy memory) you should be able to take rounds from one gun and put them
in the other with no problem.

> --
> Gurth@******.nl -http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> I feel better, having screamed on you.
> -> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
> -> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
>
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>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Michael Orion Jackson~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~TAMS Class of 1996/UT Class of 199?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~2112 Guadalupe, Rm. 502; Austin, Tx 78705 (The Goodall-Wooten)~~~~~~~
"Goddamn creatures of the night, they never learn." ~Gideon, _The Crow_
"Happiness is but a temporary chemical imbalance of the true baseline state
of our minds."~Lusiphur, quote ill-rembered and butchered by M. O. Jackson
Message no. 23
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:41:47 +0100
Michael Orion Jackson said on 7:15/16 Jan 97...

> AK-74 takes 5.45 mm Bloc, "AK-47" (most likely an AKM, as that weapon
> replaced the AK-47 quite some time ago, now it is in the B and C category
> mobilization divisions, having been replaced in the A divisions with
> the AK-74)

With the hundreds of different AK-clones out there, "AK-47" can mean just
about anything, even up to Galils or R4s if you stretch the definition...

> The AK-74 has a longer, leaner look than the AKM (but you're right, they
> do appear very similer). If close inspection is possible you could tell
> a noticible difference in barrel diameters...

Not really necessary, the large muzzle brakes gives the AK-74 away quite
easily. Then if you look at the folding stock versions, it gets really
apparent which is which.

> > Not to mention they can easily be confused with other rounds of almost
> > similar dimensions. It can make a nice tool to tease players with...
[snip]
> Good idea, but technically, the guns in the SR universe all use
> interchangeable ammunition within their individual classes (i.e. a
> Savalette (sp?) for FoF and an Ares Predator II from the SSC both fire the
> same rounds.

I know, I haven't done this sort of thing (maybe because I've not had a
need to), but it's always good to keep in mind as an option for dealing
with munchkins, for example.

> It could be argued that the magazines are shaped differenly, but in
> theory (according to the rules as I recall them in my admittedly hazy
> memory) you should be able to take rounds from one gun and put them in
> the other with no problem.

How many games do you know that really make a difference between
magazines? Ammo calibers are often used, but I've not yet seen a game
that says an M16 magazine cannot be used in an Ultimax-100, but that
30-round Ultimax mags can be put into an M16, to give an example. I
just say that al guns that fire the same ammo and have the same clip size,
can exchange magazines. For example, an AK-97 SMG and an SCK Model 100
are both SMGs and have 30-round clips, so I say they're 100%
interchangeable.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There was a dead wild cat and a bottle of.. of beer, that had
never been opened.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 24
From: BulletShower <nmatausc@****.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:11:26 +1000
Also sprach Michael Orion Jackson <orion@****.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>:

[Gurth's GM's tools manual excerpt SNIP]
> Good idea, but technically, the guns in the SR universe all use
> interchangeable ammunition within their individual classes (i.e. a
> Savalette (sp?) for FoF and an Ares Predator II from the SSC both fire the
> same rounds.

Personally, I dislike this approach, so I don't use it IMC. Guns have
been around for a long while now (in RL), and still, there's no
standardized round available. I don't think this'll change in 2057,
or in the future.


:)
BulletShower
______________________________________________________________________
"Gott wuerfelt nicht" (A. Einstein)
For More information on diceless roleplaying and own Shadowrun stuff,
jack into http://www.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~nmatausc
Message no. 25
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:40:58 +0000
> From: Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
> Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns

> SR doesn't work that way) But making it BR works- it makes some
> assumptions though that to ID a gun you would have to be able to make
> one from scratch the targets for BR should be very low, just as most
> people can care for their weapons technically BR, but more likely
> defaulting from firearms.

That's the idea behind the street index for most runners as the
target number. Although I think they are a low target number and
would add +2. This is, of course, assuming that the weapon in
question is not one that the runners see every day. There has to be
some common sense with every rule.


--Droopy

droopy@**.net
Message no. 26
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Identifying those darn guns
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:36:32 +0000
In message <31C61D63D0E@****.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de>, BulletShower
<nmatausc@****.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE> writes
>Also sprach Michael Orion Jackson <orion@****.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>:
>
>[Gurth's GM's tools manual excerpt SNIP]
>> Good idea, but technically, the guns in the SR universe all use
>> interchangeable ammunition within their individual classes (i.e. a
>> Savalette (sp?) for FoF and an Ares Predator II from the SSC both fire the
>> same rounds.
>
>Personally, I dislike this approach, so I don't use it IMC. Guns have
>been around for a long while now (in RL), and still, there's no
>standardized round available. I don't think this'll change in 2057,
>or in the future.

I disagree... for civil use, sure, on one night you'd see .38 Super,
.357 Magnum, 9mm, 9mm Major, 10mm, .40cal, and .45ACP all in one room.

For military small-arms weapons there are basically five calibres. 9mm
for pistols and SMGs. 5.56mm, 5.45mm and 7.62mm x 39 for assault
rifles/LMGs. 7.62mm NATO for older rifles and medium MGs.

If you pick up a SMG, odds are it accepts 9mm.

If you pick up a Western assault rifle, you can put 5.56mm or .223
Remington into it.

The "it uses a really exotic ammo" idea is useful for new superweapons,
though. "Yep, it fires long bursts, hardly any recoil, shoots through
steel plate. No, you don't recognise the ammo. Must be special. Guess
only Ares make it." A useful way to keep Ares Alphas from proliferating
:)

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

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