Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: IDs
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:20:29 -0600
This topic is not about identifications, but immortal dwarves.

Dwarves have been around as long as elves (I think). Dwarves have a
higher average willpower than elves. With this they should be better
spellcasters than elves. Where are the immortal dwarves?

-David
--
"What's the point spread on World War III?"
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 2
From: Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: IDs
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:24:07 -0600
Quoth David Buehrer:
>
> This topic is not about identifications, but immortal dwarves.
>
> Dwarves have been around as long as elves (I think). Dwarves have a
> higher average willpower than elves. With this they should be better
> spellcasters than elves. Where are the immortal dwarves?

Would you have a favorable opinion of Harlequin if he was a Dwarf? It's
all marketing mein freund.

--
|
Mike Loseke | You never know how fluffy poodles are,
mike@*******.com | until you step in one.
|
Message no. 3
From: Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: IDs
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 10:46:00 MST
>
> This topic is not about identifications, but immortal dwarves.
>
> Dwarves have been around as long as elves (I think). Dwarves have a
> higher average willpower than elves. With this they should be better
> spellcasters than elves. Where are the immortal dwarves?

What does willpower have to do with how much skill someone has in
spellcasting? I guess they may be able to force themselves hit the books
harder...

I think traditionaly elves are longer lived than dwarves, and more magical,
so that may be why dwarves got the shorted - since reality seems to mirror
legend. Assuming IE got their immortality through magic, the ID-wannabes
would be at a disadvantage and perhaps can't. But they might be able to
through different means - one more applicalbe to their race. <racial slur
warning> But who wants to swing an axe and pick that long anyway?

Course I don't know anyting about dwarves from the Earthdawn setting, or
their history during the...uh...sleeping? of magic.

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com
Message no. 4
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: IDs
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 16:15:23 -0400
> Where are the immortal dwarves?

You ain't gonna get them from FASA. They subscribe to the tolkienist theroy
on elves. Besides every game system screws them.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

YES and my followers will be legion! The world will be mine
"SO SWEARS THE LEADER!"
All will bow before my might and bask in my radience. Kneel before you lord
and master. Kiss the ruby ring of power and cower before me.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: IDs
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:34:45 +0100
David Buehrer said on 11:20/12 Jun 97...

> This topic is not about identifications, but immortal dwarves.

Yep, it definitely is"Great ShadowRN Discussions From The Past" week... :)
This immediately reminded me of that old post entitled something like "Top
Ten Reasons Why Immortal Dwarves Are Better Than Immortal Elves"... I
should still have it somewhere ;)

> Dwarves have been around as long as elves (I think). Dwarves have a
> higher average willpower than elves. With this they should be better
> spellcasters than elves. Where are the immortal dwarves?

For starters, elves live about 3 times as long as dwarfs, which should
give a single person more time to discover the intricacies (sp?) of magic.
That Willpower bonus also doesn't do anything for their spellcasting
ability, it will only allow them to resist Drain better (in Earthdawn,
the Spellcasting talent is based on Perception, BTW).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Drowning in the main-stream.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 6
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: IDs -Reply
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 16:38:57 -0500
>Where are the immortal dwarves?

Hidding in plain sight, I'd say.

<Evil GM grin>

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 7
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: IDs -Reply
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:46:43 +0100
|
|>Where are the immortal dwarves?
|
|Hidding in plain sight, I'd say.
|
|<Evil GM grin>

SO.... David Rappaport didn't REALLY die....
He's an ID and faked his death to come up with a new identity.....

:)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: IDs
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:52:30 PDT
>What does willpower have to do with how much skill someone has in
>spellcasting? I guess they may be able to force themselves hit the books
>harder...

Resisting drain.
Message no. 9
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: IDs -Reply
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:25:41 -0600
Mike Elkins wrote:
|
| >Where are the immortal dwarves?
|
| Hidding in plain sight, I'd say.
|
| <Evil GM grin>

Thanks Mike, I was hoping someone take this tangent. In my game the
immortal dwarves are about to make their move, way behind the scenes
(and not out in front like the Elves). Like, maybe the Bavarian
Illuminati does in fact exist :) (and it'll give me something to do
with all those Illuminati cards I bought, but never play with).

-David
--
"What's the point spread on World War III?"
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 10
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: IDs
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 02:56:55 +0000
> > This topic is not about identifications, but immortal dwarves.
> >
> > Dwarves have been around as long as elves (I think). Dwarves have a
> > higher average willpower than elves. With this they should be better
> > spellcasters than elves. Where are the immortal dwarves?

The problem is that in the 14th century and onwards dwarves
disappeared from legends and became elves or trolls, and things that
wasn't dwarves became dwarves.. in the books. According to Norse
myth, dwarves was the worms that grew in the body of Ymir, the first
and greatest of the frost giants. Not an illustrious beginning.

So much for sagas. Stat wise, elves has +2 charisma, and
should be real good conjurers, while dwarves has +1 willpower which
is related to sorcery.(Drain resistance. Elves has no bonuses related
to stats used in sorcery.). According to legend dwarves are powerful
artificers, and also vengeful and greedy. Other legends place them as
kindly.

If there's any immortal dwarves around, they would be so
through artifacts, and they would wield and wear extremely powerful
anchorings and foci. Legend invariably places them in underground
caverns; connected by gates to the surface world. One such is the
Trollswall (Trollveggen, Moere and Romsdal county, Norway) others are
in Germany. These underground worlds would possibly be metaplanes,
not 'real' underground caves.

As a side note on magical artifacts... has anyonce considered using
the 'temper' spell in Awakenings on armor?

(It looks a bit unbalancing to me if that was possible.).



--
Rune Fostervoll

"But the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we no not of."
Message no. 11
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: IDs
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:08:05 EDT
On Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:20:29 -0600 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
writes:
>This topic is not about identifications, but immortal dwarves.
>
>Dwarves have been around as long as elves (I think). Dwarves have a
>higher average willpower than elves. With this they should be better
>spellcasters than elves. Where are the immortal dwarves?


A good question. What about immortal trolls or orks, though? Or
shapeshifters, for that matter (I see this one as a greater possibility
than the trogs as the regen should at least partially counteract the
effects of aging). All we know is that somebody like the idea of Immortal
Elves so much that they managed to push it through into SR from ED. And
did a poor job of it. Wait! I've got it! The other immortals are actually
the ones behind the IE's Techno-magical Cabal:) <shrug> I've heard
somestuff about some metahuman kingdoms having been founded in Bavaria (a
Troll kingdom, I think), possibly even some sort of re-brith of old
Throal (ie, a dwarf nation), but I don't know if that was something that
was FASA-official or just somebody's campaign.


--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 12
From: Raven <florian.goll@******.UNI-WEIMAR.DE>
Subject: Re: IDs
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:14:35 +0000
> On Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:20:29 -0600 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
> writes:
> >This topic is not about identifications, but immortal dwarves.
> >
> >Dwarves have been around as long as elves (I think). Dwarves have a
> >higher average willpower than elves. With this they should be better
> >spellcasters than elves. Where are the immortal dwarves?

There are immortal dwarves, acoording to the 3 german novels they
live under the old coal-mines in the Ruhr.
Their Kingdom is called Hvaldos.
If you ever happen to be in real deep shit in Germany, try to get
there. If you meet any Dwarves (They are _really_ powerful mages
among them) tell them you beg for shelter ( use the word Canira) and
they'll grant you, maybe let you live there for a while, if you are
peaceful and promise to tell noone!
-----------


>>>>>[ Just because you are Paranoid doesn't mean the Bastards aren't after
you ! ]<<<<<
- Raven <No time/Date Stamp>
Message no. 13
From: "Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: IDs
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:49:59 -0500
At 10:14 AM 6/17/97 +0000, Raven whispered:
>> On Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:20:29 -0600 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
>> writes:
>> >spellcasters than elves. Where are the immortal dwarves?
>
>There are immortal dwarves, acoording to the 3 german novels they
>live under the old coal-mines in the Ruhr.

Man, I could've sworn that back when FASAMike was subscribed to the list he
said that there were no other immortal races than elves. Of course, any GM
could say otherwise in thier campaign.



-Thomas Deeny
Your Guide to Shadowrun -- http://shadowrun.miningco.com -- updated every
Wednesday!
Thomas's World is http://telltale.hart.org -- come visit!

"Why you're the very model of sanity. Oh by the way, I pressed your tights
and put away your
exploding gas balls."
-Alfred Pennyworth, _Batman: Mask of the Phantasm_
Message no. 14
From: tom Cone <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: IDs
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:51:05 -1000
>>There are immortal Dwarves...novels
>I coulda sworn FASAMike said...
Okay, so this opens up whether novels are canon again, which I believe
we resolved as "no", seeing as how there is such thing as creative
license, and that it is used in the novels.
Message no. 15
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: IDs
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 02:25:44 +0000
> >>There are immortal Dwarves...novels
> >I coulda sworn FASAMike said...
> Okay, so this opens up whether novels are canon again, which I believe
> we resolved as "no", seeing as how there is such thing as creative
> license, and that it is used in the novels.

True, but check the FASA page about what they do if you want to write
something for them..
(I'll not quote it here... check it.).

There is not much room for the authors to write stuff that is totally
off. A lot is up to interpretation, of course, but the really major
stuff is a definite no-no.

Immortal dwarves.. is that minor or major stuff?

(Amusing discussion...:
A: Immortal dwarves exist, and is good at sorcery due to good
willpower.
B: Well, immortal elves is better at magic, because they are
immortal.
A: Doh

I assume you see the point...)
--
Rune Fostervoll

"But the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we no not of."
Message no. 16
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: IDs
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:36:28 EDT
On Fri, 20 Jun 1997 02:25:44 +0000 Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
writes:
>> >>There are immortal Dwarves...novels
>> >I coulda sworn FASAMike said...
>> Okay, so this opens up whether novels are canon again, which I
>believe
>> we resolved as "no", seeing as how there is such thing as creative
>> license, and that it is used in the novels.


And the German books (the SR books & sourcebooks published by FanPro
under license by FASA) are supposed to be bad about this, too, I think I
heard around here that they had a bad habit of not being a direct
translation and not always having the same rules as the FASA-published
books. In essence, the German books have a bad rep, AFAIK.


>True, but check the FASA page about what they do if you want to write
>something for them..
>(I'll not quote it here... check it.).


Pretty restrictive, neh? But what are the ones that FanPro uses? I think
they'd have published the books being discussed in this case (unless
someone knows of a FASA-published novel which makes use of Immortal
Dwarves somewhere in it?).


>There is not much room for the authors to write stuff that is totally
>off. A lot is up to interpretation, of course, but the really major
>stuff is a definite no-no.
>
>Immortal dwarves.. is that minor or major stuff?


I'd say major, but really depending on exactly what kind of influence
they're supposed to have had on world politics and events. If it's
another deal like the IE, then I say no-go. We do not need more of that
crap.


>(Amusing discussion...:
>A: Immortal dwarves exist, and is good at sorcery due to good
> willpower.


No, they're better at resisting drain. They need one fewer die for the
Drain Resistance test, that's not a whole lot of advantage. They have one
more die for resisting Drain of any kind, whether it's spell drain or
drain from conjuring (might be wrong there, can't remember if conjuring
drain is resisted with charisma or not). In any case, their advantage in
Sorcery or magic in general is debatable, though it could make a slight
difference.


>B: Well, immortal elves is better at magic, because they are
> immortal.


And because elves live longer than any other race, so they will be able
to accumulate more skill and information than other races. And that's
without immortality. Because of the longer life spans coupled with a rate
of birth about the same as the other races, less knowledge is lost over
time.


>A: Doh
>
>I assume you see the point...)

Yeah, however, we still don't know what novels the guy is talking about,
or who published them.


--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 17
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: IDs
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:00:03 -0500
At 19-Jun-97 wrote John E Pederson:

>And the German books (the SR books & sourcebooks published by FanPro
>under license by FASA) are supposed to be bad about this, too, I think I
>heard around here that they had a bad habit of not being a direct
>translation and not always having the same rules as the FASA-published
>books. In essence, the German books have a bad rep, AFAIK.

THEY ARE BAD !!
Well most of them have lots of translation errors and other enhancements.
the worst book of all is the Seattle Sourcebook.
Otherwise is the RBB in german a real blast with nearly all official vehicles
and lots of usefull optional rules.
The other way is the same crab. The Germany sourcebock in english is
a crime.
The complett equipment section and the description about Hamburg are left out.

>>Immortal dwarves.. is that minor or major stuff?

>I'd say major, but really depending on exactly what kind of influence
>they're supposed to have had on world politics and events. If it's
>another deal like the IE, then I say no-go. We do not need more of that
>crap.

In the books the ID`s are a bunch of let-us-alone-guys.
They took no active role in politics or manipulating everyone like the IE`s.
And is it not stated that they are immortal they had only lived in the
underground
for several hundered years.

>Yeah, however, we still don't know what novels the guy is talking about,
>or who published them.

The books in question are a trilogy about some guy who was manipulated
by some force in the dark.
Ok thats a very lame explanation just read them if you know german.
Since I dont think they are translated into english here is the order
Das zerrissene Land
Die Augen des Riggers
Die graue Eminenz


--
Barbie


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about IDs, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!