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Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: IE's and Insanity
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:42:53 -0600
/ and thus did Max Rible speak on 21 Sep 98 at 11:44:
/
/ > The way I run things, all IE's *are* insane. The IE's have the
/ > *magic* to live forever, which they may have acquired from the
/ > Great Dragons, but they don't have the *philosophy*, the coping
/ > mechanisms, to deal well with immortality.

I don't think so.

When you think about it, mankind starts with a few coping mechanisms at
birth and builds on those as he goes. You start with the ability to
laugh and experience joy. You learn to appreciate classical art,
literature, and music.

IMHO the same thing would happen to any individual experiencing
immortality. Given a halfway decent base to start with, they would
develope coping mechanisms and philosophies to deal with issues
stemming from immortality.

Heck, during my trip to the ripe old age of 32 I've my philosophies
have expanded and my coping mechanism have improved :)

And, IMO, there aren't that many issues that immortality would cause.

Sure, loved ones and friends pass on. But that happens several times
in the course of a normal life and people deal with it.

Adversity happens. But, adversity is one of the primary building
blocks of character and personality.

IMHO an immortal would have a very strong personality and a life
philosophy matched by their age.

A few might very well be insane, but not without good reason. Either
they started off insane, in which case the odds of them recovering are
slim. Or an catastrophic event drove them to insanity. In the case of
an event, I would expect them to be able to recover given time
(something they have plenty of). And said recovery would make their
character even stronger, giving them the will to endure any following
catastrophic events.

If you gotta have an insane IE, I'd either say that he was born that
way, or that he'd recently experienced a truely helish event (maybe he
was at Nagasaki or Hiroshima when they were bombed) and hadn't
recovered yet.

Hmmm... This is creating a couple of adventure ideas.

The PCs are hired by one IE to find and capture another IE. IE #1
wants to try to apply a newly developed treatment to IE #2 (who is
fairly insane and has been since birth). Maybe the IEs are related
<shrug>. This one could be all sorts of fun as the PCs travel from
mental hospital to mental hospital looking for IE #2, encountering
interesting problems and wreaking havoc as they go.

The PCs get caught up in an IE's machinations. The IE was at Nagasaki
when it was bombed and driven temporarily insane. The IE is on the
verge of recovery, but needs help (though he doesn't know that). The
PCs find out what's going on (somehow) and have the opportunity to
bring the IE back to the side of "good". There's lots of roleplaying
opportunities in this one.

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 2
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: IE's and Insanity
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:36:42 -0700
At 08:42 9/22/98 -0600, David Buehrer wrote:
>/ and thus did Max Rible speak on 21 Sep 98 at 11:44:
>/ > The way I run things, all IE's *are* insane. The IE's have the
>/ > *magic* to live forever, which they may have acquired from the
>/ > Great Dragons, but they don't have the *philosophy*, the coping
>/ > mechanisms, to deal well with immortality.

>I don't think so.
>
>When you think about it, mankind starts with a few coping mechanisms at
>birth and builds on those as he goes.
[...]
>IMHO the same thing would happen to any individual experiencing
>immortality. Given a halfway decent base to start with, they would
>develope coping mechanisms and philosophies to deal with issues
>stemming from immortality.
>
>Heck, during my trip to the ripe old age of 32 I've my philosophies
>have expanded and my coping mechanism have improved :)

You have an amazingly optimistic view of human nature. I sincerely
hope yours turns out to be a better assessment of it.

>And, IMO, there aren't that many issues that immortality would cause.

I disagree.

>Sure, loved ones and friends pass on. But that happens several times
>in the course of a normal life and people deal with it.

But immortals wouldn't just experience the deaths of friends and loved
ones-- they'd do it repeatedly. After you've outlived your childhood
friend's last great-grandchild, wouldn't you begin to feel a certain
amount of ennui? A reluctance to permit these brief-living creatures
to touch your heart? You could *make* yourself keep going through it,
because you know it's the right thing to do, to keep yourself human...
but wouldn't it be *easier* to just see them as pets? You might
feel fondness and affection for them, just as a human would a cat that
could be with them for 20 years, but it's not like they're the same
order of being as you.

Not only would they see people dear to them pass away, they would
watch entire *cultures* disappear. Everything that defined their
own roles in the world could crumble to dust and vanish, leaving
them with a head full of memories that no one else will even believe.
"O tempora! O mores!"

Let's see: at 32, you've only been around since 1966 or so. You may
have some fuzzy memories of the Summer of Love, you may still be trying
to forget the 1970's, and you were of an age to appreciate the dismal
"me first!" philosophy of the 1980's. You can probably appreciate
the contrast of the Sexual Revolution to the AIDS era, but you
haven't had to *live* through the whole thing-- and an IE would
do so in a permanent state of eligibility, rather than being in an
age group that would decrease in activity.

Imagine getting all the way there from the Victorian era! Corsets
and hoopskirts eventually give way to flappers and speakeasies, then
the Great Depression hits and it's back to austerity, then the same
thing all over again later. Repeat a few times, and society and everyone
in it begins to look rather ephemeral. And if they're ephemeral...
they're inconsequential. That level of disconnectedness from people,
and from society, is a great first step down the long road to insanity.

>A few might very well be insane, but not without good reason. Either
>they started off insane, in which case the odds of them recovering are
>slim. Or an catastrophic event drove them to insanity. In the case of
>an event, I would expect them to be able to recover given time
>(something they have plenty of). And said recovery would make their
>character even stronger, giving them the will to endure any following
>catastrophic events.

I think watching every vestige of the culture you lived in die off
and having to put up with millennia of watching society around you
pull itself out of the Neolithic again while mourning your lost
society would qualify as a sufficiently catastrophic event. Imagine
having to go from a world where you can talk about philosophy with
hundreds to thousands of people in locations all around the planet,
with excellent medicine, new entertainment media arriving from distant
lands every day, and a fantastic levle of luxury goods, to dealing
with the same small group of farmers who perform backbreaking labor
during the day, tell a few stories over dinner, and collapse in
exhaustion for the next day of work. To add insult to injury,
you can't even play god and try to rebuild your civilization, because
the technology it was *built* on doesn't work any more...

>If you gotta have an insane IE, I'd either say that he was born that
>way, or that he'd recently experienced a truely helish event (maybe he
>was at Nagasaki or Hiroshima when they were bombed) and hadn't
>recovered yet.

Oh, there are more hellish events than blowing up a city, though
blowing up a city isn't exactly a PTA luncheon. A big
explosion is very fast, and then it's time to look for survivors,
get people out from under the rubble, and so on. Going through a
*concentration camp* is hellish. An IE with Immunity to Poisons and
Pathogens could wind up in a gas chamber, watching hundreds of
innocents die around him while he calmly sat there breathing poison,
then play dead so he would be heaped with the bodies in a mass grave,
to escape later. Now *that* is a great way to get nightmares...

>The PCs get caught up in an IE's machinations. The IE was at Nagasaki
>when it was bombed and driven temporarily insane. The IE is on the
>verge of recovery, but needs help (though he doesn't know that). The
>PCs find out what's going on (somehow) and have the opportunity to
>bring the IE back to the side of "good". There's lots of roleplaying
>opportunities in this one.

A good chance for exposition there, too, if you want to pull out
ED stuff-- though it'd take a lot of knowledge of history and/or ED
to provide good deranged ramblings for someone who's been around for
eight thousand years... :-)

--
%% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 3
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: IE's and Insanity
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:34:32 -0600
While doing the Hoochy Koochy, Max Rible wrote:
/
/ At 08:42 9/22/98 -0600, David Buehrer wrote:
/ >/ and thus did Max Rible speak on 21 Sep 98 at 11:44:
/ >/ > The way I run things, all IE's *are* insane. The IE's have the
/ >/ > *magic* to live forever, which they may have acquired from the
/ >/ > Great Dragons, but they don't have the *philosophy*, the coping
/ >/ > mechanisms, to deal well with immortality.
/
/ >I don't think so.
/ >
/ >When you think about it, mankind starts with a few coping mechanisms at
/ >birth and builds on those as he goes.
/ [...]
/ >IMHO the same thing would happen to any individual experiencing
/ >immortality. Given a halfway decent base to start with, they would
/ >develope coping mechanisms and philosophies to deal with issues
/ >stemming from immortality.
/ >
/ >Heck, during my trip to the ripe old age of 32 I've my philosophies
/ >have expanded and my coping mechanism have improved :)
/
/ You have an amazingly optimistic view of human nature. I sincerely
/ hope yours turns out to be a better assessment of it.

Me to :)

/ >And, IMO, there aren't that many issues that immortality would cause.
/
/ I disagree.

[snip: life can suck and that can wear you down]

Okay, you've altered my perspective.

I feel that an immortal's sanity would rely on whether his nature is
optomistic or pesimistic.

usage: mt [ -f device ] command [ count ]

A pesimistic immortal might view life as a series of deaths and that life
has no point.

An immortal of either disposition might be subject to an event that
changes their perspective and their nature.

In either case I would expect the pesimistic immortal to become
insane. I would expect the optimistic immortal to retain their sanity,
however their optimism might warp their perspective to such a point
that they would lose touch with reality (viewing life with innosence
through rose colored glasses). However, optimism is pretty rare. An
immortal subject to many life changing events might well become
psychotic.

In all instances, I would expect a sane IE to be very rare.

/ An IE with Immunity to Poisons and
/ Pathogens could wind up in a gas chamber, watching hundreds of
/ innocents die around him while he calmly sat there breathing poison,
/ then play dead so he would be heaped with the bodies in a mass grave,
/ to escape later. Now *that* is a great way to get nightmares...

urk.. I'll leave the nightmares up to you :)

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 4
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: IE's and Insanity
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:54:57 -0400
David Buehrer wrote:
>
> Okay, you've altered my perspective.
>
> I feel that an immortal's sanity would rely on whether his nature is
> optomistic or pesimistic.
>
> usage: mt [ -f device ] command [ count ]

Cool! A Zen Unix koan! >8->


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 5
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: IE's and Insanity
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:57:41 -0400
Steve Eley wrote:
> > Okay, you've altered my perspective.
> >
> > I feel that an immortal's sanity would rely on whether his nature is
> > optomistic or pesimistic.
> >
> > usage: mt [ -f device ] command [ count ]
>
> Cool! A Zen Unix koan! >8->
>
*shrug* He's just expressing his own pessimistic nature. Only a
pessimist backs up their files. ;-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 6
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: IE's and Insanity
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:11:04 -0400
<SNIP>
>*shrug* He's just expressing his own pessimistic nature. Only
>a pessimist backs up their files. ;-)

Hey I'm pragmatic and I back up my files. There is a fine line
between the two. Now what this has to do with the IE discussion
I have no idea, but it sorta reminds me Anne Rice's Vampire
books. Something to look into if you want to use that sort of
tone for your IE's. I actually even used it as a premise for
a one act play for a college writing class. Scary how this stuff
comes back into play.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 7
From: Anjo Verde <Chant_Obscur@*******.FR>
Subject: Re: IE's and Insanity
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:28:48 +0200
-----Message d'origine-----
De : David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Date : mardi 22 septembre 1998 20:34
Objet : Re: IE's and Insanity

>While doing the Hoochy Koochy, Max Rible wrote:

What's the Hoochy Koochy ?

>[snip: life can suck and that can wear you down]
>
>Okay, you've altered my perspective.
>I feel that an immortal's sanity would rely on whether his nature is
>optomistic or pesimistic.
>A pesimistic immortal might view life as a series of deaths and that life
>has no point.
>An immortal of either disposition might be subject to an event that
>changes their perspective and their nature.
>In either case I would expect the pesimistic immortal to become
>insane. I would expect the optimistic immortal to retain their sanity,
>however their optimism might warp their perspective to such a point
>that they would lose touch with reality (viewing life with innosence
>through rose colored glasses). However, optimism is pretty rare. An
>immortal subject to many life changing events might well become
>psychotic.
>In all instances, I would expect a sane IE to be very rare.

I think that as time goes by, your view of life turns very cynical.
If pessimism leads to insanity, optimism leads to death. You
don't survive for eight thousands years by seeing the world
through rose colored glasses.
All immortals but the youngest are very prone to cynicism since
they've all seen humanity at its worst. Yet, it is a good sign that they
have such an attitude because it means they retain a sense of
good and evil. Once it goes away you end up with someone
like Alachia, in essence : a sociopath. She lives in her own world,
has no morals and will destroy anything that stands in her way.
Also having seen humanity at its best they will develop a taste for it,
therefore I imagine that for all their petty schemings, immortals often
will be philantropists, devoting part of their immense wealth to art,
music and humanitarian endeavors. They would be excellent muses
knowing what is merely a fade and what artworks are beyond time.
They probably were since it appears that Aina for example, was
the patron and friend of legendary painters such as Goya or Rembrandt.
I don't think that sanity is linked to optimism or pessimism, but
to your appreciation for life. Take two opposing characters:
-Aina: she's utterly, depressingly pessimistic, lost in her tortured
memories. However, when you read worlds without end, you see
she still appreciates the good things life has to offer, be it fine french
food, paintings, music or fine spirits (though she borders on alcoholism).
She is very pessimistic but her priorities are remarkably straight
and she's got an amazing inner strength. She is quite sane.
-Alachia: now there's somebody seeing the world through rose-colored
glasses. She's always smiling, secure in the knowledge that she's
got so many people dancing on her strings. She is optimistic but
barking mad. She's completely lost her grasp on reality and will
do _anything_ to be in a position of power. This personality trait
led her to create the blood elves and to work with the nazis.
She's not pessimistic but she's completely insane.
I think if anything helps an immortal retain his sanity, it's internal
consistensy : as Aina said, making the choices you can live with.

Anjo Verde
Message no. 8
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: IE's and Insanity
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:48:36 -0600
While doing the Hoochy Koochy, Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:
/
/ Steve Eley wrote:
/ > > Okay, you've altered my perspective.
/ > >
/ > > I feel that an immortal's sanity would rely on whether his nature is
/ > > optomistic or pesimistic.
/ > >
/ > > usage: mt [ -f device ] command [ count ]
/ >
/ > Cool! A Zen Unix koan! >8->
/ >
/ *shrug* He's just expressing his own pessimistic nature. Only a
/ pessimist backs up their files. ;-)

I didn't even know I did that. I'm not even sure how I did that... oh,
I thought I did a !fmt and didn't realize that I missed the "f".

Any mistake that gets a laugh can't be all that bad :)

In place of the Unix error message there should've been a paragraph on
IE optimism.

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

Further Reading

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