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Message no. 1
From: "Terry L. Amburgey" <xanth@********.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Ignorant and Stupid Club
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 12:52:19 -0400
At 12:04 AM 10/24/96 -0700, Tom wrote:
>
><Tim Kerby wrote>
>
>> Because TSR sucks and FASA doesn't? TSR shot themselves in the foot
>> with their aggressive attitude. It turned a lot of people off. TSR is
>> popular for the same reason that Microsoft is; because so many people
>> just don't know any better.
>
>Again, if that is truly how you feel, you are both ignorant and stupid.
>

I'm not sure if you're defending TSR or Microsoft but I agree wit Tim on
both counts so add me to the Ignorant and Stupid Club.
Terry L. Amburgey Email: xanth@***.uky.edu
Associate Professor Phone: (606) 257-7726
College of Business and Economics Fax: (606) 257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506-0034
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Ignorant and Stupid Club
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 10:58:52 -0600
Terry L. Amburgey wrote:
|
|At 12:04 AM 10/24/96 -0700, Tom wrote:
|>
|><Tim Kerby wrote>
|>
|>> Because TSR sucks and FASA doesn't? TSR shot themselves in the foot
|>> with their aggressive attitude. It turned a lot of people off. TSR is
|>> popular for the same reason that Microsoft is; because so many people
|>> just don't know any better.
|>
|>Again, if that is truly how you feel, you are both ignorant and stupid.
|>
|
|I'm not sure if you're defending TSR or Microsoft but I agree wit Tim on
|both counts so add me to the Ignorant and Stupid Club.

Ditto.

On a side note, my group enjoys playing AD$D because it is such a simple
game. We don't have to fret with rules and can just roleplay.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 3
From: A Halliwell <u5a77@**.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ignorant and Stupid Club
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:03:07 +0100
|
|At 12:04 AM 10/24/96 -0700, Tom wrote:
|>
|><Tim Kerby wrote>
|>
|>> Because TSR sucks and FASA doesn't? TSR shot themselves in the foot
|>> with their aggressive attitude. It turned a lot of people off. TSR is
|>> popular for the same reason that Microsoft is; because so many people
|>> just don't know any better.
|>
|>Again, if that is truly how you feel, you are both ignorant and stupid.
|>
|
|I'm not sure if you're defending TSR or Microsoft but I agree wit Tim on
|both counts so add me to the Ignorant and Stupid Club.
|Terry L. Amburgey Email: xanth@***.uky.edu
|Associate Professor Phone: (606) 257-7726
|College of Business and Economics Fax: (606) 257-3577
|University of Kentucky
|Lexington, KY 40506-0034
|

<aol>
me too!
</aol>
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk | |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:-| "THAT WOULD BE AN ECCLESIASTICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!!|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ignorant and Stupid Club
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 14:26:00 -0500
[Snip comments about TSR and Microdeck... err... microsoft:)]

Well, count me among the Ignorant and Stupid as well...

-Bull-the-ignorant-and-stupid-ork-with-an-Intelligence-of-12
Message no. 5
From: A Halliwell <u5a77@**.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ignorant and Stupid Club
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:28:49 +0100
|
|[Snip comments about TSR and Microdeck... err... microsoft:)]
|
|Well, count me among the Ignorant and Stupid as well...
|
|-Bull-the-ignorant-and-stupid-ork-with-an-Intelligence-of-12

Would that be an ADnD intelligence of 12, or a shadowrun intelligence of 12?
(If it's the latter, then I'm dwarfed by your intellect...)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk | |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:-| "THAT WOULD BE AN ECCLESIASTICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!!|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 6
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ignorant and Stupid Club
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 18:37:39 -0500
>|
>|[Snip comments about TSR and Microdeck... err... microsoft:)]
>|
>|Well, count me among the Ignorant and Stupid as well...
>|
>|-Bull-the-ignorant-and-stupid-ork-with-an-Intelligence-of-12
>
>Would that be an ADnD intelligence of 12, or a shadowrun intelligence of 12?
>(If it's the latter, then I'm dwarfed by your intellect...)
>
That would be SR Intelligence, which, sadly, far exceeds my own RL
intelligence...:) The last AD&D character I plaeyed had an Intelligence of
4...:)

-Bull-the-explaining-it-to-Andrew-decker-turned-GM
Message no. 7
From: A Halliwell <u5a77@**.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ignorant and Stupid Club
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 13:39:26 +0100
|That would be SR Intelligence, which, sadly, far exceeds my own RL
|intelligence...:) The last AD&D character I plaeyed had an Intelligence of
|4...:)

I *think* you're getting them the wrong way 'round....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk | |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:-| "THAT WOULD BE AN ECCLESIASTICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!!|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: Technomancer <arvanit@***.UCH.GR>
Subject: Re: Ignorant and Stupid Club
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 15:32:10 +0200
On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, David Buehrer wrote:

>
> On a side note, my group enjoys playing AD$D because it is such a simple
> game. We don't have to fret with rules and can just roleplay.
>

Simple? No rules? Are we talking about THE AD$D here? Did I have wrong
books? (Just count the pages devoted to initiative and you have all the
rules of SR.)

*********************************************************************
* Technomancer * Modesty is one of my countless virtues *
* arvanit@***.uch.gr *
* http://www.csd.uch.gr/~arvanit/ *
*********************************************************************
Message no. 9
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Ignorant and Stupid Club
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 11:12:44 -0600
Technomancer wrote:
|
|On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, David Buehrer wrote:
|
|> On a side note, my group enjoys playing AD$D because it is such a simple
|> game. We don't have to fret with rules and can just roleplay.
|
|Simple? No rules? Are we talking about THE AD$D here? Did I have wrong
|books? (Just count the pages devoted to initiative and you have all the
|rules of SR.)

I didn't say "no rules", I said "simple". You always use a
D20 to check for success, TN modifications are basic,
damage is *not* resisted. True, there's a lot of reading
required if you've got a spellcaster. But overall AD$D is
an easy game. It doesn't reflect RL at all, but it's easy.

ShadowRun on the other hand... :)

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 10
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ignorant and Stupid Club
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 14:26:17 -0500
>Technomancer wrote:
>|
>|On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, David Buehrer wrote:
>|
>|> On a side note, my group enjoys playing AD$D because it is such a simple
>|> game. We don't have to fret with rules and can just roleplay.
>|
>|Simple? No rules? Are we talking about THE AD$D here? Did I have wrong
>|books? (Just count the pages devoted to initiative and you have all the
>|rules of SR.)
>
>I didn't say "no rules", I said "simple". You always use a
>D20 to check for success, TN modifications are basic,
>damage is *not* resisted. True, there's a lot of reading
>required if you've got a spellcaster. But overall AD$D is
>an easy game. It doesn't reflect RL at all, but it's easy.
>
>ShadowRun on the other hand... :)
>
Also keep in mind the fact that the majority of role-players, especially
those of us 21-30, grew up on AD&D. Quite a few players that I know,
including myself, started learning teh game in Elementary school or Jr.
High. The game is so ingrained that you instinctively know the rules. Play
a game long enough, and you no longer need a rule book.

Granted, the game is silly, usually designed for munchkinised play, and is
unrealistic in almost every sense of the word, but... It's still a fun
diversion occasionally. Usually very little thinking needs to be involved.
Almost every gamer gets in teh mood now and then to just kill stuff.
Shadowrun is *not* the game I'd choose for that. Too deadly, and too much
thought goes into the characters.

However, AD&D is quick and dirty. No thinking needs to be involved in teh
char creation, so you can almost instantly create throw away charcters...:)

Not to say that you can't have a creative and well thought out game of D&D.
I've played in and ran games that were very much RolePlaying, as opposed to
Roll Playing. It's possible. But you need a creative and intelligent game
master, as well as intelligent and creative players... The same is true for
any game.

SR can be just as cheap and silly as D&D under the right circumstances. We
had a player who created a rigger character for our game. He then used that
charcater in a different SR game for just a coupel sessions. When he came
back, he suddenly had 7 million nuyen, and 300 more karma than when he left.
Sure, he had been in a lot of combat, but all that from just a couple
games??? Please... It's taken me 3+ years to get Bull up to 325 Karma...

Guess that goes to show that any game can be crap, even SR, if run badly.
With the right GM, I might even play Vampire... If most of the political
silliness were thrown out, and I had a group of players that weren't
Munchkins...

Hmmm, I'm ranting again... Sorry... I just hate to hear people slam stuff
for bad reasons... You may have had bad experiences, granted... I agree
that in general D&D is not a serious RPG, and that most players and GM's are
Monty Haul Munchkins... But this isn't always the case.

Well, I'm gonna stop ranting now... See ya...

-Bull-the-occasional-AD&D-playing-decker-turned-GM
Message no. 11
From: Hatchetman <Hatchetman@****.CZEST.PL>
Subject: Re: Ignorant and Stupid Club
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 17:54:56 +0100
>Not to say that you can't have a creative and well thought out game of D&D.
>I've played in and ran games that were very much RolePlaying, as opposed to
>Roll Playing. It's possible. But you need a creative and intelligent game
>master, as well as intelligent and creative players... The same is true for
>any game.
>
>SR can be just as cheap and silly as D&D under the right circumstances. We
>had a player who created a rigger character for our game. He then used that
>charcater in a different SR game for just a coupel sessions. When he came
>back, he suddenly had 7 million nuyen, and 300 more karma than when he left.
>Sure, he had been in a lot of combat, but all that from just a couple
>games??? Please... It's taken me 3+ years to get Bull up to 325 Karma...

Right circumstances ? You mean hopeless GM?
7 milion niuens and 300 karma points for combat... Yeah, you mean hopeless GM.
I'm not an expert in AD&D but I played it a couple of times. The main
disadvantage of this system is (exactly!) experience points gaining system
(sorry for 'English'). My character gained points for walking through forest
and killing 'bad guys'. The amount of those points was higher than for
achieving the main adventure target.
And my GM said that he gave us EPs according to the rules... I don't know
these rules but if it's true - they're very stupid ones.

I used to play Shadowrun for near 3 years - I know the rules. In my game,
you will never have Karma for killing. But you will have it for e.g. finding
a proper person. In my game you must think - if not... you will have usually
one point of Karma: for survival.

Sorry for English. See ya!
*********************************************************
* HATCHETMAN (a nickname from Shadowrun), *
* a poor being with only e-mail access *
* *
* E-Mail: Hatchetman@****.czest.pl *
* *
* In real world: Anonymous (a.k.a. Bednar) *
* From: Czestochowa, Poland, Europe, Earth. *
*********************************************************
Message no. 12
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ignorant and Stupid Club
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 12:09:53 -0700
<snip>

> Right circumstances ? You mean hopeless GM?
> 7 milion niuens and 300 karma points for combat... Yeah, you mean hopeless GM.
> I'm not an expert in AD&D but I played it a couple of times. The main
> disadvantage of this system is (exactly!) experience points gaining system
> (sorry for 'English'). My character gained points for walking through forest
> and killing 'bad guys'. The amount of those points was higher than for
> achieving the main adventure target.
> And my GM said that he gave us EPs according to the rules... I don't know
> these rules but if it's true - they're very stupid ones.

The xp rules of AD&D can be abused... it all depends on your GM... I've
seen it go both ways...

---Tom---
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Ignorant and Stupid Club
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 11:33:29 +0100
Hatchetman said on 17:54/26 Oct 96...

> I'm not an expert in AD&D but I played it a couple of times. The main
> disadvantage of this system is (exactly!) experience points gaining system
> (sorry for 'English'). My character gained points for walking through forest
> and killing 'bad guys'. The amount of those points was higher than for
> achieving the main adventure target.
> And my GM said that he gave us EPs according to the rules... I don't know
> these rules but if it's true - they're very stupid ones.

In AD&D you get XP (eXperience Points) for killing monsters, yes. So what
it comes down to is hacking down all the monsters you encounter, and if
you're a couple hundred XP short of getting to the next level, you walk
into a forest and kill the first animal you come across. The GM, sorry
_D_M book says something about awarding XP for good roleplaying, but none
of the AD&D games I've played in, did that ever happen. Perhaps it was
bacause most of the players in them wouldn't know a roleplayer if they
bumped into one :)
(Disclaimer: this last sentence is not to be read as "AD&D-players are not
roleplayers" :)

> Sorry for English.

It's quite good, you know...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
enjoy it today, tomorrow you'll be old thus useless
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 14
From: Mike Hartmann <hartmann@***********.M.EUNET.DE>
Subject: Re: Ignorant and Stupid Club
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:33:28 +0000
On 27 Oct 96 at 11:33, Gurth wrote:

> In AD&D you get XP (eXperience Points) for killing monsters, yes. So what
> it comes down to is hacking down all the monsters you encounter, and if
> you're a couple hundred XP short of getting to the next level, you walk
> into a forest and kill the first animal you come across. The GM, sorry
> _D_M book says something about awarding XP for good roleplaying, but none
> of the AD&D games I've played in, did that ever happen. Perhaps it was
> bacause most of the players in them wouldn't know a roleplayer if they
> bumped into one :)

Well, in our AD&D party we had some good "house" rules:
You could not get more EP from killing monsters than from
roleplaying, solving puzzles and such stuff. That meant: if you slay
a dragon but did not do a good job on roleplaying you wasted exp. Of
course we built up some new rules for awarding EP for good
roleplaying...

Bye Mike
Message no. 15
From: Hatchetman <Hatchetman@****.CZEST.PL>
Subject: Re: Ignorant and Stupid Club
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:50:34 +0100
At 14:38 27.10.96 GMT, you wrote:


>Well, in our AD&D party we had some good "house" rules:
>You could not get more EP from killing monsters than from
>roleplaying, solving puzzles and such stuff. That meant: if you slay
>a dragon but did not do a good job on roleplaying you wasted exp. Of
>course we built up some new rules for awarding EP for good
>roleplaying...
>
>Bye Mike

Yes. "House" rules are good for every system - especially for AD&D and other
'classic & old' RPG.
By-The-Way, are there any "instant death" rules for Shadowrun ?
The mainbook says that you can only get "10 points" (deadly) but you're
still alive - if I understood the rules...
*********************************************************
* HATCHETMAN (a nickname from Shadowrun), *
* a poor being with only e-mail access *
* *
* E-Mail: Hatchetman@****.czest.pl *
* *
* In real world: Anonymous (a.k.a. Bednar) *
* From: Czestochowa, Poland, Europe, Earth. *
* *
* Still waiting for new mail... *
*********************************************************
Message no. 16
From: A Halliwell <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Ignorant and Stupid Club
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:17:53 +0000
|
|At 14:38 27.10.96 GMT, you wrote:
|
|
|>Well, in our AD&D party we had some good "house" rules:
|>You could not get more EP from killing monsters than from
|>roleplaying, solving puzzles and such stuff. That meant: if you slay
|>a dragon but did not do a good job on roleplaying you wasted exp. Of
|>course we built up some new rules for awarding EP for good
|>roleplaying...
|>
|>Bye Mike
|
|Yes. "House" rules are good for every system - especially for AD&D and
other
|'classic & old' RPG.
|By-The-Way, are there any "instant death" rules for Shadowrun ?
|The mainbook says that you can only get "10 points" (deadly) but you're
|still alive - if I understood the rules...

Yes...
If you ever go <n> boxes over deadly, you are dead! No arguments!
(Where <n> is your Body Attribute.)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk | |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:-| "THAT WOULD BE AN ECCLESIASTICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!!|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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