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Message no. 1
From: Joshua Bell joshbell@**********.com
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:31:15 -0500
Hello again. I am back to the list after doing little things like laundry
and graduating from college.

I love SR3D, I'm sure that most of you do as well. I think that the
improvements with magic, skills, and combat shall make the game even more
enjoyable. However since I am a fan of both the novels and the gaming
books I sometimes get confused when I find a discrepancy.

(Please note that I am not criticizing Mel Oden with the observation I am
about to make. I think that ALL authors, and gamemasters as well, should
be allowed to "bend the rules" in order to maintain a good story. I simply
desire to know the consensus opinion on how Listmember would handle this
situation.)

"Not a Spoiler"

I found Mel Odom's most recent book "Run Hard, Die Fast" an excellent read
with a bit of a rushed ending. In the book a character user a Barret-M121
sniper rifle to shoot people 1200m away.

The SR2D rules said sniper ranges were a maximum of 400m. SR3D rules upped
this to 1,000m.

Now for some history:
After reading this I took out a manual I have about rifles and ranges.
Most rifles are kept short range due to the fact that a soldier is more
effective with a short range, high ROF rifle. Therefore most Assault
rifles have a range from 300m-600m. However "Sniper" Rifles, using
standard 7.62mm ammo have ranges up to 1300m. A .50 caliber machine gun
however can have ranges up to 6000m!

Back to Shadowrun:
A Barret M-121 I figure is a .50 caliber sniper rifle. I feel this way due
to the runner comments in FoF about large shells, and the fact that it has
a +2 recoil modifier like heavy weapons. Therefore I believe that a Barret
M-121 should have a much longer range then standard sniper rifles. IMHO, I
suggest the following:

Barret M-121 Range Table

Short = 0 - 200m
Medium = 201m - 500m
Long = 501m - 1,500m
Extreme = 1,501m - 3,000m


What do you think? I welcome your opinions.

Joshua
Message no. 2
From: Mark C. Farrington alareth@*****.dwebs.net
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:35:48 -0500
>I love SR3D, I'm sure that most of you do as well. I think that the
>improvements with magic, skills, and combat shall make the game even more
>enjoyable.

You poor man. May God have mercy on you soul for the wrath you have
targeted upon yourself. Even now the hordes of SR3 bashers are sharpening
their swords and deciding upon the best way to cut out your heart.

Lord Alareth Faltrix
Acolyte of the First Church of the Squooshy Ball
Investigator - Shadowrun Webring Internal Affairs
Message no. 3
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:39:00 EST
In a message dated 3/10/99 3:35:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
alareth@*****.dwebs.net writes:

> You poor man. May God have mercy on you soul for the wrath you have
> targeted upon yourself. Even now the hordes of SR3 bashers are sharpening
> their swords and deciding upon the best way to cut out your heart.
>
> Lord Alareth Faltrix
> Acolyte of the First Church of the Squooshy Ball
> Investigator - Shadowrun Webring Internal Affairs

That's a shame. I rather like the changes; makes the samurai need more than
ONE all-purpose firearms skill. Gives the mages a chance to TRY and hit back
before teh super-speedball-wired samurai shoot them a half dozen times. And a
few other tweaks (basing skills off of attributes, I _like_ ... I had been
toying with something along those lines myself, more as a skill max than a
skill cost modifier; now you NEED to up those attributes, even Charism1, to
"get ahead" ... !).

So I guess those SR3 bashers had best sharpen TWO sets of knives, neh,
chummer? <G>

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 4
From: Mark C. Farrington alareth@*****.dwebs.net
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:15:42 -0500
>That's a shame. I rather like the changes; makes the samurai need more
than
>ONE all-purpose firearms skill. Gives the mages a chance to TRY and hit
back
>before teh super-speedball-wired samurai shoot them a half dozen times.
And a
>few other tweaks (basing skills off of attributes, I _like_ ... I had been
>toying with something along those lines myself, more as a skill max than a
>skill cost modifier; now you NEED to up those attributes, even Charism1, to
>"get ahead" ... !).
>
>So I guess those SR3 bashers had best sharpen TWO sets of knives, neh,
>chummer? <G>

I like it as well, I was just giving a helpful warning <g>

Lord Alareth Faltrix
Acolyte of the First Church of the Squooshy Ball
Investigator - Shadowrun Webring Internal Affairs
Message no. 5
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:44:16 EST
In a message dated 99-03-10 15:42:54 EST, you write:

> That's a shame. I rather like the changes; makes the samurai need more than
> ONE all-purpose firearms skill. Gives the mages a chance to TRY and hit
> back
> before teh super-speedball-wired samurai shoot them a half dozen times.
And
> a
> few other tweaks (basing skills off of attributes, I _like_ ... I had been
> toying with something along those lines myself, more as a skill max than a
> skill cost modifier; now you NEED to up those attributes, even Charism1, to
> "get ahead" ... !).
>
> So I guess those SR3 bashers had best sharpen TWO sets of knives, neh,
> chummer? <G>


Make it three, I guess... The only thing I dont like about SR3 IS the
breaking up of the firearms skill, but that is balanced by the added knowlege
skills. Using thought in sellecting your knowlege skills is a great way to
help round out a charecter and give them a personality. Take my present
rigger, (and the inclusion of the rigger rules are another joy... they help
show everyone a rigger is more than just a guy with a hot car) Howling Mad.
One of the things I decided was that he was in love with old music and old tv
shows. that lead to deciding he was also into Anime. So, from selecting the
skills of Anime lore, and old tv shows, I created a charecter who is somewhat
loud, often irreverent, and lible to fire off comedic bits from old tv shows
at a moments notice. Heh. Heh heh. Heh heh heh.... Hey Rick... I think I
Know what I'm gonna spend my next couple of karmic awards on.... NEW Skill:
Writing (Fanfiction). Would it be part of the Knowlege: Literature skill, or
would it be an active skill all its own? Int based, though, right?
Message no. 6
From: Tim Kerby drekhead@***.net
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:47:20 -0500
At 3/10/99 3:35:00 PM, you wrote:

>You poor man. May God have mercy on you soul for the wrath you have
>targeted upon yourself. Even now the hordes of SR3 bashers are sharpening
>their swords and deciding upon the best way to cut out your heart.

Yep. Both of them. :)

--
================================================================ - Tim Kerby -
drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity;
and I'm not sure about the the universe." -Albert Einstein
Message no. 7
From: Hunter griffinhq@****.com
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:55:59 -0800
On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:44:16 EST Starrngr@***.com writes:
>In a message dated 99-03-10 15:42:54 EST, you write:
>
>> That's a shame. I rather like the changes; makes the samurai need
>>more than ONE all-purpose firearms skill. Gives the mages a chance to
TRY
>>and hit back before teh super-speedball-wired samurai shoot them a half
dozen
>>times. And a few other tweaks (basing skills off of attributes, I
_like_ ... I
>>had been toying with something along those lines myself, more as a
skill max
>>than a skill cost modifier; now you NEED to up those attributes, even
>>Charism1, to "get ahead" ... !).
>>
>> So I guess those SR3 bashers had best sharpen TWO sets of knives,
>neh,
>> chummer? <G>
>
[sound of steel on whetstone]

>Hey Rick... I think I Know what I'm gonna spend my next couple of
karmic awards >on.... NEW >Skill: Writing (Fanfiction). Would it be
part of the Knowlege: Literature
>skill, or would it be an active skill all its own? Int based, though,
right?
>
Yes. (And may God have mercy on the rest of the PCs).

*************************************************************************
********************
Griffin Industries
http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/Griffin/index.html

"If you just want to kill things, play D&D."

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Message no. 8
From: Dave Post caelric@****.com
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:32:13 -0800
At 01:31 PM 3/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
<snip quite a bit>
>
>Barret M-121 Range Table
>
>Short = 0 - 200m
>Medium = 201m - 500m
>Long = 501m - 1,500m
>Extreme = 1,501m - 3,000m
>
>
>What do you think? I welcome your opinions.
>
>Joshua
>

Well, no. Carlos Hathcock, arguably the greatest sniper ever, and
definately the USMC's sniper with the most kills (who incidentally,
recently died) made his best shot at 2500 meters. I can't remember what
rifle he used, but it was some type of sniper rifle. He shot a 12 year old
boy who was transporting aload of weapons to a VC camp. Now, he, being
most likely the best ever, and at least one of the best could only make a
shot at 2500 meters; I doubt someone could routinely do better, which is
what making extreme range 1500 to 3000 meters would.

However, I also disagree with the stated range of 1000 m for extreme. I'm
thinking maybe 1500 or 2000. Expert marksmen can do this on a semi-regular
basis with the right weapon.

Just my thoughts

Dave
Message no. 9
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:45:46 -0500 (EST)
Dave Post <caelric@****.com> writes:
> At 01:31 PM 3/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
> <snip quite a bit>
> >
> >Barret M-121 Range Table
> >
> >Short = 0 - 200m
> >Medium = 201m - 500m
> >Long = 501m - 1,500m
> >Extreme = 1,501m - 3,000m
> >
> >What do you think? I welcome your opinions.

> However, I also disagree with the stated range of 1000 m for extreme. I'm
> thinking maybe 1500 or 2000. Expert marksmen can do this on a semi-regular
> basis with the right weapon.

How about leaving sniper rifle ranges where they are, and
assessing a +1TN for every 100m or so past extreme?

Mark
Message no. 10
From: Dave Post caelric@****.com
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:54:22 -0800
At 05:45 PM 3/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Dave Post <caelric@****.com> writes:
>> At 01:31 PM 3/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> <snip quite a bit>
>> >
>> >Barret M-121 Range Table
>> >
>> >Short = 0 - 200m
>> >Medium = 201m - 500m
>> >Long = 501m - 1,500m
>> >Extreme = 1,501m - 3,000m
>> >
>> >What do you think? I welcome your opinions.
>
>> However, I also disagree with the stated range of 1000 m for extreme. I'm
>> thinking maybe 1500 or 2000. Expert marksmen can do this on a semi-regular
>> basis with the right weapon.
>
> How about leaving sniper rifle ranges where they are, and
>assessing a +1TN for every 100m or so past extreme?
>
>Mark
>
No, because there is an absloute maximum limit on how far a weapon can
shoot before it's kinetic energy (what does the damage) is negligible. I
can see now, someone trying to shoot 3500 meters, and burns karma to do it;
the rifle still does the same, say 14D damage (or whatever the damage code
is). Or you could do the +1 TN every 100 meters, and throw some common
sense in there, too...:)

Dave
Message no. 11
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 22:36:17 +0000
In article <3.0.1.32.19990310133115.006976c8@***.mindspring.com>, Joshua
Bell <joshbell@**********.com> writes
>The SR2D rules said sniper ranges were a maximum of 400m. SR3D rules upped
>this to 1,000m.
>
>Now for some history:
>After reading this I took out a manual I have about rifles and ranges.
>Most rifles are kept short range due to the fact that a soldier is more
>effective with a short range, high ROF rifle. Therefore most Assault
>rifles have a range from 300m-600m. However "Sniper" Rifles, using
>standard 7.62mm ammo have ranges up to 1300m. A .50 caliber machine gun
>however can have ranges up to 6000m!

I'd say ~2000m effective at most. The record for effective fire with a
.50 is 2,500 metres, in special circumstances, by the recently-deceased
Carlos Hathcock.

7.62mm NATO goes subsonic around 900 metres or so downrange and loses
accuracy: you need .338 Lapua or similar to hit at 1300m, and by 2km (a)
you're into major problems of LOS and visibility, (b) hitting vehicles
maybe, hitting people is act-of-God.

>Back to Shadowrun:
>A Barret M-121 I figure is a .50 caliber sniper rifle. I feel this way due
>to the runner comments in FoF about large shells, and the fact that it has
>a +2 recoil modifier like heavy weapons. Therefore I believe that a Barret
>M-121 should have a much longer range then standard sniper rifles.

It's silenced, therefore it's got to be firing subsonic bullets,
therefore it loses a lot in range compared to a HMG.

>What do you think? I welcome your opinions.

Way too much range for a silent weapon.

At 1,200 metres, with a .338 Lapua (supersonic, so anyone it passes
hears the extremely distinctive n-wave crack of a bullet's passage and
you set off all the acoustic bullet direction indicators) if you've got
the air temperature wrong by five degrees Celsius, you can expect to
miss by five inches. If you're firing from inside a shaded hide through
sunlit air, errors like that are easy.

As for wind... misjudge the average wind over the bullet's flight by
only five miles an hour, and you'll miss by four feet.

Long range rifle shooting is both art and science, and one harsh rule is
that a silenced subsonic bullet will have a lot less range than a
supersonic.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 12
From: Kevin Langevin kevinl@******.com
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:59:42 -0500
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Post [mailto:caelric@****.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 5:32 PM
> To: shadowrn@*********.org
> Subject: Re: I'm Back...and I have questions...

> Well, no. Carlos Hathcock, arguably the greatest sniper ever, and
> definately the USMC's sniper with the most kills (who incidentally,
> recently died) made his best shot at 2500 meters. I can't
> remember what
> rifle he used, but it was some type of sniper rifle. He shot
> a 12 year old
> boy who was transporting aload of weapons to a VC camp. Now,
> he, being
> most likely the best ever, and at least one of the best could
> only make a
> shot at 2500 meters; I doubt someone could routinely do
> better, which is
> what making extreme range 1500 to 3000 meters would.

Hmmm...this could be, but you should take into account the better
technology, and smartlinks...they would do wonders for a sniper's ability to
target something further away...I don't know just HOW MUCH farther away, but
it would probably make a big difference...

-Kev
Message no. 13
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:07:26 -0500 (EST)
Dave Post <caelric@****.com> writes:
> At 05:45 PM 3/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >Dave Post <caelric@****.com> writes:
> >> At 01:31 PM 3/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
> Or you could do the +1 TN every 100 meters, and throw some common
> sense in there, too...:)

<cough> Umm, yeah, I keep forgetting that common sense really
needs to be put into rule form rather than just assumed. Tacking on
"up to GM discretion" would help, I guess. :P

On a related note, our Conjurer Adept (w/ rating 5 spirit +
power foci) decided last week that he wanted a monowhip, and tried to
spend extra time (about 2 weeks) and money (about 5000 nuyen) to drop the
availability down from 24? to 5 or so.
The time+money vs. availability rules need some help.

Mark
Message no. 14
From: Dave Post caelric@****.com
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:12:33 -0800
At 05:59 PM 3/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
<snip my old comments>
>
>Hmmm...this could be, but you should take into account the better
>technology, and smartlinks...they would do wonders for a sniper's ability to
>target something further away...I don't know just HOW MUCH farther away, but
>it would probably make a big difference...
>
>-Kev
>

I'm not so sure I agree with this. Extreme long range shooting is more of
an intuitive art than a science. I think for the average shooter, a
smartlink would help tremendously. But for the expert long range sniper, I
think a smart link would actually be in conflict with 'the art' As for
other technology, I don't think guns are going to get all that much more
accurate over the next 60 years or so. At least ballistic, powder fired
guns. Laser and other weapons technology, well, thats a different matter.
More technology, maybe you could slot a 'Carlos Hathcock' sniper chip which
gives you sniper rifle at a level of 20, but then I think your chipjack
couldn't handle that... :)

Of course, all this is just my opinion, and actually has little bearing on
SR. Except the max extreme range, which I think should still be about 1500
or so.

A little known fact: most people think the M16A2 has a max range of maybe
800 meters. Thats actually the agreed upon max effective range for an area
target. The round itself will actually travel, if you angle the rifle
correctly to a distance of 3534 meters, discounting wind and other such
factors. Interesting...

Dave
Message no. 15
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:06:16 EST
In a message dated 3/10/99 6:16:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, SHODAN+@***.EDU
writes:

> On a related note, our Conjurer Adept (w/ rating 5 spirit +
> power foci) decided last week that he wanted a monowhip, and tried to
> spend extra time (about 2 weeks) and money (about 5000 nuyen) to drop the
> availability down from 24? to 5 or so.
> The time+money vs. availability rules need some help.
>
> Mark

That shouldn't be a problem. That much time and cred WILL make it more
available.

Of course, EVERYONE in the shadows, INCLUDING law enforecement, knows he wants
it. <g> Use it! hehehe

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 16
From: Seraph seraph4plm@*********.net
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:49:00 -0800
----- Original Message -----
From: <GMPax@***.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 4:06 PM
Subject: Re: I'm Back...and I have questions...


>In a message dated 3/10/99 6:16:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SHODAN+@***.EDU
>writes:
>
>> On a related note, our Conjurer Adept (w/ rating 5 spirit +
>> power foci) decided last week that he wanted a monowhip, and tried to
>> spend extra time (about 2 weeks) and money (about 5000 nuyen) to drop
the
>> availability down from 24? to 5 or so.
>> The time+money vs. availability rules need some help.
>>
>> Mark
>
>That shouldn't be a problem. That much time and cred WILL make it more
>available.
>
>Of course, EVERYONE in the shadows, INCLUDING law enforecement, knows he
wants
>it. <g> Use it! hehehe
>
>Sean
>GM Pax
>

Where would I find the rules for throwing money at availability?
Message no. 17
From: Steve Collins einan@*********.net
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 99 21:28:29 -0500
}}snip background{{
>
>Now for some history:
>After reading this I took out a manual I have about rifles and ranges.
>Most rifles are kept short range due to the fact that a soldier is more
>effective with a short range, high ROF rifle. Therefore most Assault
>rifles have a range from 300m-600m. However "Sniper" Rifles, using
>standard 7.62mm ammo have ranges up to 1300m. A .50 caliber machine gun
>however can have ranges up to 6000m!
>
>Back to Shadowrun:
>A Barret M-121 I figure is a .50 caliber sniper rifle. I feel this way due
>to the runner comments in FoF about large shells, and the fact that it has
>a +2 recoil modifier like heavy weapons. Therefore I believe that a Barret
>M-121 should have a much longer range then standard sniper rifles. IMHO, I
>suggest the following:
>
>Barret M-121 Range Table
>
>Short = 0 - 200m
>Medium = 201m - 500m
>Long = 501m - 1,500m
>Extreme = 1,501m - 3,000m
>
>
>What do you think? I welcome your opinions.
>
>Joshua

For reasons I'll go into later I'll explain why I think 1 or more new
range groups should be added.Well 3,000 M is abit much to be hitting
individual people with. You might be able to hit somebody using full auto
and firing into a group at that range but with a single shot not likely.
On the other hand 1,000 M seems abit short given that there are
documented cases of snipers hitting people at much greater ranges than
this.

Others have pointed out the longest recorded hit was at 2,500 M and that
the bullet becomes subsonic at around that range loosing almost all
accuracy beyond that. Given 60 years of advances it seems likely that the
maximum effictive range could be extended to 3,000 M. But I still don't
like it, Why? The base Tn for extreme range is 9. This is a sniping
situation so it is likely that the shooter has a smartlink (-2) and 3
actions of aim (-3) for a final Tn of 4. Now it is likely that at this
kind of extreme range there may be other situational modifiers to apply
that will bring it back up they will rarely exceed 8 (final TN 12). Say
+4 for wind, +3 for partial obstruction and +1 beacuse the target is
walking.

Assuming a final TN of 12 and an "average" rifleman (skill 3) there will
be 6 dice (we will assume that the gun is not customized). There is still
a 15.6% chance of generating atleast 1 success, an average "sniper"
(skill 6) would get 1 success 28.7% of the time, and an above average
sniper (skill 8) would have a 36.3% chance for a success all without
Karma use. These seem abit high for a shot that has been recorded only
once in history. It would be almost a routine shot for an expert sniper
(skill above 10). Remember the target is unaware of the danger so he gets
only body dice to defend and unless he's a tank he ain't staging a 14D to
nothing (he might get it to serious, especially with some Karma spent) so
that 1 success almost guarantees a hit.

I would suggest 6 range groups for all weapons Tn's 4,5,7,9,12, and 15.
the ranges for the Sniper Rifle would then look something like this
Tn 4 0 - 100M
Tn 5 101 - 400M
Tn 7 401 - 1000M
Tn 9 1001 - 1800M
Tn 12 1801 - 2500M
Tn 15 2501 - 3000M
Other weapons would also be changed accordingly. Also vision
magnification devices would have to be changed given that there are more
than 4 range groups. I would suggest that instead of ignoring range
groups you subtract range groups ( 1 range group/ level) so mag 3 against
a target 2800M away would give you a base Tn of 9. I still don't like it
because it assumes you can see a human sized target through a rifles
sights at those kinds of ranges (even 1km is pushing that).

Steve
Message no. 18
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 02:51:51 -0400
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Steve Collins."
<SUUUPER SNIP!!!>

] +4 for wind, +3 for partial obstruction and +1 beacuse the target is
] walking.

I thought walking (or other minor movement) was a 0 modifier,
running was +2, and standing still was -1?

] Other weapons would also be changed accordingly. Also vision
] magnification devices would have to be changed given that there are more
] than 4 range groups. I would suggest that instead of ignoring range
] groups you subtract range groups ( 1 range group/ level) so mag 3 against
] a target 2800M away would give you a base Tn of 9.

That's what vision mag does, it moves the range category down
by the rating. So magnification 2 would take a shot from Long
range to Short, or Extreme to Medium.

-Murder of One
Message no. 19
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:01:17 +0000
In article <3.0.6.32.19990310143213.0094c930@****.fed1.sdca.home.com>,
Dave Post <caelric@****.com> writes
>Well, no. Carlos Hathcock, arguably the greatest sniper ever, and
>definately the USMC's sniper with the most kills (who incidentally,
>recently died) made his best shot at 2500 meters. I can't remember what
>rifle he used, but it was some type of sniper rifle.

Scoped Browning M2HB heavy machine gun. The use of the M2 in single
shot, and its accuracy when so used, was part of the reason for the
growth in .50cal sniping.

>However, I also disagree with the stated range of 1000 m for extreme. I'm
>thinking maybe 1500 or 2000. Expert marksmen can do this on a semi-regular
>basis with the right weapon.

Not shooting at people...

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 20
From: Kevin Dole kdole@***.vsc.edu
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:17:24 EST5EDT
"Paul J. Adam" <Paul@********.demon.co.uk>
> >Well, no. Carlos Hathcock, arguably the greatest sniper ever, and
> Scoped Browning M2HB heavy machine gun. The use of the M2 in single

And what so many people fail to mention (or realiase, becuase
thier source doesn't mention it) is that it took two or three shots to
hit the kid, who had sufficent time to remove a rifle and magazine
from a cargo bundle on bike, get the magazine in, and IIRC get off
a couple shots.
I also think that it may have been 1200m, not 2000m. (I don't
have his bio handy right now.) Still, a mile is damn impressive
shooting. Hitting a smallish human at that range, after three
rounds over a couple seconds, is nothing to sneeze at.

Sick of hearing people talk about thier thousand yard shots,
without bothering to tell us how many times they missed and thier
time between shots--

Kevin Dole /:|
kdole@***.vsc.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/4151/welcome.html
FOR SIX DAYS, DO ALL THAT THOU ART ABLE.
ON THE SEVENTH, DO THE SAME, AND CLEAN OUT THE STABLE.
Message no. 21
From: Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:24:45 +0100
Joshua Bell wrote:
>

>
> I love SR3D, I'm sure that most of you do as well.

No, I don't definetly not, and I know lots of others how dislike it also.

--
Barbie

"I'm Pentium of Borg. Precision is irrelevant.
You will be aproximated."
Message no. 22
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:59:24 +0000
In article <199903112019.PAA01510@****.vtc.vsc.edu>, Kevin Dole
<kdole@***.vsc.edu> writes
>"Paul J. Adam" <Paul@********.demon.co.uk>
>> >Well, no. Carlos Hathcock, arguably the greatest sniper ever, and
>> Scoped Browning M2HB heavy machine gun. The use of the M2 in single
>
> And what so many people fail to mention (or realiase, becuase
>thier source doesn't mention it) is that it took two or three shots to
>hit the kid, who had sufficent time to remove a rifle and magazine
>from a cargo bundle on bike, get the magazine in, and IIRC get off
>a couple shots.

The version I heard was that he'd been sighting the weapon in at long
range (maybe just trying to see how tight it would group, and the man he
killed wandered past the aiming mark he was using... known range, wind
hadn't changed, and Hathcock took the shot. Either way, it certainly
wasn't a first-round kill.

>Still, a mile is damn impressive
>shooting. Hitting a smallish human at that range, after three
>rounds over a couple seconds, is nothing to sneeze at.

Again, it should say something that it's so rare. A good example of this
in fiction is David Mason's novel "Shadow Over Bablylon", which is about
getting a sniper into position to kill a certain Middle Eastern
dictator: it has to be a first-round kill, at a range of 1,250 metres.

The shooter is one of the best around, the rifle is a Accuracy
International PM in .338 Lapua, and still the task is extremely hard,
demanding a rangefinder, several remote anemometers to give accurate
wind, and a laptop loaded with ballistics data.

It's an excellent book, but Mason does get across just how hard it is to
hit a man at a thousand yards, particularly with one shot.

> Sick of hearing people talk about thier thousand yard shots,
>without bothering to tell us how many times they missed and thier
>time between shots--

Competition shooters are excellent marksmen, but they've got flags for
wind, exact range, fixed targets... sniping's a whole different ball of
chalk.
>

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 23
From: Joshua Bell joshbell@**********.com
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:54:33 -0500
At 11:24 PM 3/11/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Joshua Bell wrote:
>>
>
>>
>> I love SR3D, I'm sure that most of you do as well.

Barbie replied:
>No, I don't definetly not, and I know lots of others how dislike it also.
>
>--
>Barbie

Josh counters:

Umm what did you say???
---you don't definetly not (watch the double negatives!)
--- lots of others how dislike it also? ( what does this mean??)

do yourself a favor and buy a spell check before criticizing!

Josh
Message no. 24
From: Dave Post caelric@****.com
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:44:08 -0800
At 03:17 PM 3/11/99 EST5EDT, you wrote:
>"Paul J. Adam" <Paul@********.demon.co.uk>
>> >Well, no. Carlos Hathcock, arguably the greatest sniper ever, and
>> Scoped Browning M2HB heavy machine gun. The use of the M2 in single
>
> And what so many people fail to mention (or realiase, becuase
>thier source doesn't mention it) is that it took two or three shots to
>hit the kid, who had sufficent time to remove a rifle and magazine
>from a cargo bundle on bike, get the magazine in, and IIRC get off
>a couple shots.
> I also think that it may have been 1200m, not 2000m. (I don't
>have his bio handy right now.) Still, a mile is damn impressive
>shooting. Hitting a smallish human at that range, after three
>rounds over a couple seconds, is nothing to sneeze at.
>
> Sick of hearing people talk about thier thousand yard shots,
>without bothering to tell us how many times they missed and thier
>time between shots--
>
>Kevin Dole /:|
>kdole@***.vsc.edu

Actually, the shot was 2500 meters, which is the current record. About the
number of shots, I am relatively sure it was the first shot, although I may
be wrong on this. However, the 2500 meters, I'm pretty durn sure about.

dave
Message no. 25
From: Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 04:20:37 +0100
Joshua Bell wrote:
>
>
> do yourself a favor and buy a spell check before criticizing!
>
Do yourself a favor and think once in a time.
That are gramatical errors and no spelling errors, and its a statement
and not critique. If you can only accept gramatical and correct spelled
posts as valid you are a sorry bud.

--
Barbie

"I'm Pentium of Borg. Precision is irrelevant.
You will be aproximated."
Message no. 26
From: Iridios iridios@*********.com
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:42:51 -0500
Barbie LeVile wrote:
>
> Joshua Bell wrote:
> >
> >
> > do yourself a favor and buy a spell check before criticizing!
> >
> Do yourself a favor and think once in a time.
> That are gramatical errors and no spelling errors, and its a statement
> and not critique. If you can only accept gramatical and correct spelled
> posts as valid you are a sorry bud.

Not to mention the fact that (IIRC) english is not Barbie's native
language.

And on that note, Joshua, what is a spell check? I've heard of spell
checkers but not spell checks. ;P

--
"My fellow Americans,
I'm pleased to tell you today, that I've signed legislation that
will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes"
-Ronald Reagan

Iridios
iridios@*********.com
ICQ UIN:6629224
The ShadowZone is down for Revision
Please email me with Zone Notification as subject to be
notified when it reopens.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489
Message no. 27
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:22:15 EST
In a message dated 3/11/99 7:43:28 PM Pacific Standard Time,
iridios@*********.com writes:

> And on that note, Joshua, what is a spell check? I've heard of spell
> checkers but not spell checks. ;P
>

Int that what the referee mages do to the Urban brawl players to make sure
they arnt trying to slip an Improved attribute spell into the game??
Message no. 28
From: Tarek Okail Tarek_Okail@**********.com
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:57:29 -0500
Kevin, Paul--

There were two incidents where Hathcock made extremely
long-range kills. One incident involved a .50 caliber machine gun
and, IIRC, a kill at 2000 meters. This was the kid taking guns to
a VC cell.
His first shot was aimed at the bicycle's front axle,
IIRC. It hit. In a number of interviews he said that he'd hoped
the kid would take off running. When the kid went for one of the
rifles and started shooting it, that was when he aimed at the kid.
That shot hit, too.
The second incident was when he'd zeroed his rifle, a .30-06,
at about 1200 yards, using a rock or boulder as his aiming point.
Someone who was obviously VC stopped in front of the boulder.
Hathcock took the shot, and hit.
I hadn't heard that Hathcock had died, though. He was a
genuine hero.

Shadowmage
Message no. 29
From: Joshua Bell joshbell@**********.com
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:26:16 -0500
At 04:20 AM 3/12/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Joshua Bell wrote:
>>
>>
>> do yourself a favor and buy a spell check before criticizing!
>>
>Do yourself a favor and think once in a time.
>That are gramatical errors and no spelling errors, and its a statement
>and not critique. If you can only accept gramatical and correct spelled
>posts as valid you are a sorry bud.
>
>--
>Barbie
>
>"I'm Pentium of Borg. Precision is irrelevant.
> You will be aproximated."

This is my last reply to this topic...

I didn't say what I said to be mean, I said it because I didn't see the
value of your post..
If you had problems with SR3D you should have explained one or two of
them.. but to
just say "I didn't like it..." was both irrlevant and adversarial.
Remember my post on
how I "Liked SR3D" included WHAT I liked about it, AND a rules question
about SR3D...

Hence my post was useful to the message board and yours just filled up space.

Josh
Message no. 30
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:15:12 -0600
On Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:26:16 -0500 Joshua Bell <joshbell@**********.com>
writes:
>At 04:20 AM 3/12/99 +0100, [Barbie] wrote:
<SNIP>
>>Do yourself a favor and think once in a time.
>>That are gramatical errors and no spelling errors, and its a statement
>>and not critique. If you can only accept gramatical and correct spelled
>>posts as valid you are a sorry bud.

>This is my last reply to this topic...
>
>I didn't say what I said to be mean, I said it because I didn't see the
>value of your post..
>If you had problems with SR3D you should have explained one or two of
>them.. but to
>just say "I didn't like it..." was both irrlevant and adversarial.
>Remember my post on
>how I "Liked SR3D" included WHAT I liked about it, AND a rules question
>about SR3D...
>
>Hence my post was useful to the message board and yours just filled up
space.

First, what is SR3D (I'm just asking because I want to know what the 'D'
is), on ShadowRN, we commonly refer to 3rd Edition as SR3 (for the main
book and the system in general), the BBB3 (the 3rd Edition "Big Black
Book"), or the BABY ("Big All Black Yearbook", used to denote the
collector's Edition).

Second, many of ShadowRN's members, including Barbie, Gurth and I, are
not native English speakers. I have been speaking English since I was
about 4 and so speak as well as a native speaker. Gurth's writing is
excellent but I can't speak for his pronunciation :). Barbie, though her
grammar may be a bit rough at times, still writes better than many native
speakers (in the US at least. :/). For this reason, it is generally list
policy not to pick on grammar or spelling errors.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

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Message no. 31
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:15:07 EST
In a message dated 3/12/99 7:32:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, dghost@****.com
writes:

> Second, many of ShadowRN's members, including Barbie, Gurth and I, are
> not native English speakers. I have been speaking English since I was
> about 4 and so speak as well as a native speaker. Gurth's writing is
> excellent but I can't speak for his pronunciation :). Barbie, though her
> grammar may be a bit rough at times, still writes better than many native
> speakers (in the US at least. :/). For this reason, it is generally list
> policy not to pick on grammar or spelling errors.
>
> --
> D. Ghost

On top of which, I know of many people, who _are_ native english speakers, who
have _entirely_ different tone / rythm / "feel" in their _written_ word than
their _spoken_ word, myself among them. ESPECIALLY online, in fact! :-)

I tend to both (a) get a lot more formal, and (b) use a lot more schlock
accents ("laddie" and "dinnae / cannae / willnae" being Scottish
brogue
versions of "boy" and "do not / can not / will not", for example).

Thusly, I know people whose grammar online does not at _all_ reflect their
ability to communicate properly, effectively, and in a pleasant-to-hear manner
VERBALLY. And vice versa, of course. :-)

In general, criticising someone elses grammar or spelling online,
_especially_ outside of private email, is what I have learned to regard as a
nono, unless it's a more friendly "btw, that's spelled 'abc' ... " in those
cases where a perhaps obviously nonnative speaker consistently misspells a
word. :-) And even that should be kept to a minimum, IMVHO.

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 32
From: Quicksilver qwksilvr@*****.com
Subject: I'm Back...and I have questions...
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 08:43:37 -0600
At 01:31 PM 3/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I found Mel Odom's most recent book "Run Hard, Die Fast" an excellent read
>with a bit of a rushed ending. In the book a character user a Barret-M121
>sniper rifle to shoot people 1200m away.
>
>The SR2D rules said sniper ranges were a maximum of 400m. SR3D rules upped
>this to 1,000m.

>A Barret M-121 I figure is a .50 caliber sniper rifle. I feel this way due
>to the runner comments in FoF about large shells, and the fact that it has
>a +2 recoil modifier like heavy weapons. Therefore I believe that a Barret
>M-121 should have a much longer range then standard sniper rifles.
>
>What do you think? I welcome your opinions.

Two house rules I use when I GM (not that they come up very often)....

1) The Barret, being a large-caliber MG round, uses the Heavy MG ranges.
2) You may shoot at ranges beyond Extreme with the following modifications
to the rules:
a) your Smartlink will not help, it's not programmed for those ranges.
b) you must spend at least one action 'picking your shot', this doesn't
count as aiming.
c) using the short range listed for the weapon as an increment, add new
range columns as needed with a +1 to the target number for each new range.

also under consideration...
d) -2 to base Power once you exceed extreme.
e) halve base Power at 150% of extreme, max. range = 200%

Most players won't ever need to do any of this, or even want to handle the
math, but at least it's there if they want to.

Some ideas, I hope they help.
Hg

---
I'm just a soul whose intentions are good,
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood.
ICQ #30414011 ---

Further Reading

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