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From:	Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject:	I'm back, and what about two weapon fighting anyway?
Date:	Thu, 23 Apr 1998 03:11:13 +0000

Message no. 1 The list's most long winded poster is now back. You have been warned.

I don't expect to spend as much time as I did around here, but I'd
like to keep an eye on what's happening.

Then, over to shadowrun...

Two weapon fighting is fairly straightforward. If you use two weapons
you average their stats, round down, add the skill in one weapon to
that in the other (usually an edged weapons concentration,
effectively doubling your skill) and may use no more combat pool than
the special skill of that fighting style.

(There's a few more details and specifics, but AFAIK that's about
it. It's in FoF, IIRC).

I don't like that way of doing it, and was wondering how y'all was
doing it. Also, it would be interesting if these suggestions would
also consider the fact that most unarmed fighting is two (four)
handed.

I've considered averaging reach, round down, add one, and assume
unarmed (one handed) combat has a -1 reach. So if a samurai installed
two spurs (one on each hand) he would get 1 reach, or a two - knife
fighter would get 1 reach. Average and round down damage.

Opinions, suggestions, taunts?
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: I'm back, and what about two weapon fighting anyway?
Date:	Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:38:03 EDT

Message no. 2 In a message dated 4/22/98 8:22:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
runefo@***.UIO.NO writes:

> The list's most long winded poster is now back. You have been warned.
>
Oh Great....now I'm gonna get caught between you AND Erik...I think I'm gonna
go move into Gurth's stairs now....

As for two handed fighting and reach combat...I don't know. I usually allow
the normal rules to stand as they are, and just don't let anything get a +3
reach except for Dragons and Whales.. :)

-K

From:	Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: I'm back, and what about two weapon fighting anyway?
Date:	Thu, 23 Apr 1998 05:42:16 -0500

Message no. 3 > I'm back, and what about two weapon fighting anyway? (Fade , Wed 22:11)
>
> The list's most long winded poster is now back. You have been warned.
>
> I don't expect to spend as much time as I did around here, but I'd
> like to keep an eye on what's happening.
>
> Then, over to shadowrun...
>
> Two weapon fighting is fairly straightforward. If you use two weapons
> you average their stats, round down, add the skill in one weapon to
> that in the other (usually an edged weapons concentration,
> effectively doubling your skill) and may use no more combat pool than
> the special skill of that fighting style.
>
> (There's a few more details and specifics, but AFAIK that's about
> it. It's in FoF, IIRC).
>
> I don't like that way of doing it, and was wondering how y'all was
> doing it. Also, it would be interesting if these suggestions would
> also consider the fact that most unarmed fighting is two (four)
> handed.
>

It has obvious problems, but works nicely for some few situations
(defense only, IMO).

> I've considered averaging reach, round down, add one, and assume
> unarmed (one handed) combat has a -1 reach. So if a samurai installed
> two spurs (one on each hand) he would get 1 reach, or a two - knife
> fighter would get 1 reach. Average and round down damage.
>
> Opinions, suggestions, taunts?

Reach bonus is one reasonable method, but still has the problem of what
to do when damage types and properties change (stun baton and knife
style?)

Also, you din't mention dice to roll- 2 hand normally allows more dice
(and uses less pool)- allowing beter reach as well makes it WAY to good.

After LONG consideration, here's the "simple" solution I came up
with:

Two weapon attack and defense go somewhat differently:

When attacking, the weapons attack as seprate rolls, rolling weapon
skill + comabt pool not exceeding two weapon style. Each attack can
seperately be countered, at no penalty.
Apply 1/2 the succeses for each weapon to the other. Both attacks can,
possibly, be countered.

Example (used ONLY for convenient, plausible dice numbers)

Al with enhanced articulation, 11 combat pool, armed 6, and knife / stun
baton style 5

is fighting

Betty, with armed / sword 8, 8 combat pool, and 2 extra armed test
dice.

Al attacks, rolling 7-12 dice for each weapon (armed plus up to 5 combat
plus enhanced articulation). Betty has to counter twice, rolling twelve
dice plus comabt pool.

Betty must roll first, as the defender (another house rule). She
decides to use 18 dice (all her comabt pool) against the baton and 10 vs
the knife.
She rolls vs 4's for the baton and 3's for the knife. She gets 9
suceses vs the baton and 7 vs the knife (actual dice rolled, btw, and no
karma re-rolls).

Al goes all out also, pumping both weapons up to 12 dice. He needs 4's
for the baton and 5's for the knife. He rolls 6 succeses with the baton
and 5 for the knife. Adding 1/2 of each to the other, thats 8 for the
baton and 8 for the knife.

Al is hit by Betty with one net success for attacking with the baton,
but gets a hit with one net succes for the knife.

Obviously, this is not so good a style for those with little talent (it
uses lots of combat pool, and allows 2 counters). On the other hand,
you can chew through unskilled oponents very quickly, dealing multiple
wounds per attack.
Also, you can choose to atack with only one weapon (as normalor using 2
hand combat dice), meaning you are probably less vulnerable. The other
weapon is used soley for defense, which is safer (and never an aditional
risk) - see below:

Defending is different- Your opponent rolls his attack(s) against your
largest reach, and you roll with both weapons at normal reach.
Roll each weapon and apropriate combat pool (limit 2 hand style)
seperately. If either weapon alone beats your opponets succeses, it has
scored a counter attack success. In any case, your opponent must roll
more succeses than BOTH your wepons combined to hit you. It is possible
for neither comabtant to score a hit.

Example- somehow, the above tables are turned, with Betty attacking
(perhaps Al was more cautous).

Al defends, with the same TN's as above, choosing to roll 12 dice for
each weapon, for 7 baton and 4 knife succeses.

Betty attacks with all 18 dice, only against the reach of the baton.
She rolls 10 succeses against TN 4.

Al lands no counters, but is not hit.

I believe this somewhat reflects the realities of "Florentine"
fighting, but I could be wrong. It definately solves some of the
problems of normal 2 hand style (as each wepon does seprate damage, and
roll with itsown reach), and doesn't seem to create any new ones.

-Mongoose

From:	Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: I'm back, and what about two weapon fighting anyway?
Date:	Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:16:19 -0500

Message no. 4 >
> The list's most long winded poster is now back. You have been warned.
>
> I don't expect to spend as much time as I did around here, but I'd
> like to keep an eye on what's happening.
>
> Then, over to shadowrun...
>
> Two weapon fighting is fairly straightforward. If you use two weapons
> you average their stats, round down, add the skill in one weapon to
> that in the other (usually an edged weapons concentration,
> effectively doubling your skill) and may use no more combat pool than
> the special skill of that fighting style.
>
> (There's a few more details and specifics, but AFAIK that's about
> it. It's in FoF, IIRC).
>
> I don't like that way of doing it, and was wondering how y'all was
> doing it. Also, it would be interesting if these suggestions would
> also consider the fact that most unarmed fighting is two (four)
> handed.
>
> I've considered averaging reach, round down, add one, and assume
> unarmed (one handed) combat has a -1 reach. So if a samurai installed
> two spurs (one on each hand) he would get 1 reach, or a two - knife
> fighter would get 1 reach. Average and round down damage.
>
Ick, this is a thread I've seen before. I've been doing some more
thinking of the subject. In Real Life, as long as your dealing with
unarmed combat, or "spurs", most people attack and defend with both
arms. (I can't think of any martial art that doesn't). So I've
been leaving that part alone. If you fight with two swords, or a
sword and knife, etc. I tend to require a special skill for the
two weapons. This is the max dice you can use from your combat pool.
You still use your armed combat skill. Hadn't considered the reach
idea, but depending on the weapons i can see this.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."

From:	Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject:	Re: I'm back, and what about two weapon fighting anyway?
Date:	Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:52:13 +0200

Message no. 5 >> Two weapon fighting is fairly straightforward. If you use two weapons
>> you average their stats, round down, add the skill in one weapon to
>> that in the other (usually an edged weapons concentration,
>> effectively doubling your skill) and may use no more combat pool than
>> the special skill of that fighting style.
>>
>> (There's a few more details and specifics, but AFAIK that's about
>> it. It's in FoF, IIRC).
>>
>> I don't like that way of doing it, and was wondering how y'all was
>> doing it. Also, it would be interesting if these suggestions would
>> also consider the fact that most unarmed fighting is two (four)
>> handed.
>>
>> I've considered averaging reach, round down, add one, and assume
>> unarmed (one handed) combat has a -1 reach. So if a samurai installed
>> two spurs (one on each hand) he would get 1 reach, or a two - knife
>> fighter would get 1 reach. Average and round down damage.

I never had to handle that but I would state something like this :
* At first, what's the gain from using two weapons. IMO, it doesn't make
each weapon powerful. The interesting point is to be able to block in one
way or an other the weapon of the opponent and to use the other weapon
against him without any opposition. I think it's the main reason why the
fighters usually use two weapons of different size.
* So here we go : You need a special skill to use the two weapons (use a
different skill for each combination : for exemple, rapier and main gauche
or katana and wakizashi). Then, what are the benefits ? Everytime, you use
a combination of 2 weapons, you need at a difference of 1 between reachs.
* When attacking an opponent, you use a part of your skill and combat pool.
If you succeed in having more successes than him, you can try a new hit
with your second weapon. In this attempt, you will use your remaining
combat pool and skill to attack him. The opponent can't use any defense dice.

Exemple : Sam the sammy uses a sword and a knife. The sword gives him a
reach of +1 because he uses it primarily. His opponent is a troll wielding
a big knife (for him... Treat it as a sword). Sam has a skill of 7 and a
combat pool of 8. Big Belly (the troll) has a skill of 4 and a combat pool
of 6. Sam decides to use 12 dices out of his 15 while the troll uses his
maximum 8 dices (I limit combat pool dices to the skill value). Sam
succeeds in having more successes than Big Belly. He decides to block his
weapon and uses his knife to hit him. This second roll will use the
remaining 3 dices with no reach modifiers (i.e. a TN of 4). Big Belly won't
be able to use combat pool against this attack but will have his normal soak.

- Cobra.

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