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Message no. 1
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.edu>
Subject: I'm back....with some enchanting questions
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:21:08 -0400
Hoi chummers-

Just re-joining the list after a 6 month or so break (hey, we all need
one, you know - when I was last on here, grounding through quickenings
was a big topic.....now you know why I needed the break). ;)

Well, I of course have a few new things to discuss. (Actually, I am
just fishing for answers. ;)

Here goes:

Enchanting *groan*. I do not have Awakenings yet, so please don't
crucify me:

First, how do you treat fetish foci when it comes to making them? In
the Grimthingie (page 21 - MAKING FETISHES) it states, "One unit of
refined materials can make a number of expendable fetishes equal to the
character's intelligence, or one reusable fetish."

On page 23 of the Grimthingie (FETISH FOCUS) it states, "An expendable
fetish that has been enchanted, a fetish focus can be used by a magician
one time to enhance the casting of a spell." Later in the same section
it states, "Fetish foci are popular because, unlike other foci, making
one is a relatively quick and fairly inexpensive process, and they can
be used by any magician without bonding."

The actual enchanting process of a fetish focus is not covered, however.
The Grimthingie stops at the enchanting of reusable and expendable
fetishes.

What are your suggestions? Does Awakenings address this?

I was thinking that perhaps you make the fetish focus as normal and
enchant it again using a similar process, yielding a certain rating of
the focus based on successes.


Next, more enchanting:

When it comes to creating a focus with Arcana, I can't find any
reference as to how to determine which Arcana are required for any given
focus. What's to stop an enchanter from using lead (12 NY per raw unit)
instead of gold (10,000 NY per raw unit) if Mineral Arcana is used? How
do you determine the type of Arcana that is necessary in the first place
(Herbal, Mineral, Metal)?

Well, that about sums up this week's frustrations. ;) Thanks for your
input.

It's nice to be back. :)

Justin :)

--
______________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 2
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: I'm back....with some enchanting questions
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:06:11 -0500 (EST)
>Hoi chummers-
>
>Just re-joining the list after a 6 month or so break (hey, we all need
>one, you know - when I was last on here, grounding through quickenings
>was a big topic.....now you know why I needed the break). ;)
>
You mean they were talking about that 6 months ago? We just got over
another one justa coupleof weeks ago...:)




############################################
# -Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich #
# chaos@*****.com
#
# Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours? #
############################################

"I say we go back to the ship, and nuke the
site from Orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
-Ripley, "Aliens"
Message no. 3
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: I'm back....with some enchanting questions
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:16:39 -0600 (MDT)
Steven Ratkovich wrote:
|
|>Hoi chummers-
|>
|>Just re-joining the list after a 6 month or so break (hey, we all need
|>one, you know - when I was last on here, grounding through quickenings
|>was a big topic.....now you know why I needed the break). ;)
|>
|You mean they were talking about that 6 months ago? We just got over
|another one justa coupleof weeks ago...:)

It comes and goes. After joining this list I had the good
fortune to come out of lurking right in the middle of a
grounding debate. After that everything else has been
easy.

Say, aren't we about due for the magic/essence loss due to
bioware debate again? Or is "I am the greatest" next on
the list? <ducks and hides under Gurth's stairs>

<peeks out> BTW Fro, weren't you working on a new FAQ.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 4
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: I'm back....with some enchanting questions
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:18:20 -0500 (EST)
>It comes and goes. After joining this list I had the good
>fortune to come out of lurking right in the middle of a
>grounding debate. After that everything else has been
>easy.
>
I came in right as the FAB debate was going, and yeah, after that,
everything else seems a bit tame...:)

>Say, aren't we about due for the magic/essence loss due to
>bioware debate again? Or is "I am the greatest" next on
>the list? <ducks and hides under Gurth's stairs>
>
No, thw magic loos from bioware was last week. Now, what's this "I am the
greatest" thing you mentioned?




############################################
# -Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich #
# chaos@*****.com
#
# Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours? #
############################################

"I say we go back to the ship, and nuke the
site from Orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
-Ripley, "Aliens"
Message no. 5
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: I'm back....with some enchanting questions
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:18:11 -0600 (MDT)
Steven Ratkovich wrote:
|
|>It comes and goes. After joining this list I had the good
|>fortune to come out of lurking right in the middle of a
|>grounding debate. After that everything else has been
|>easy.
|>
|I came in right as the FAB debate was going, and yeah, after that,
|everything else seems a bit tame...:)
|
|>Say, aren't we about due for the magic/essence loss due to
|>bioware debate again? Or is "I am the greatest" next on
|>the list? <ducks and hides under Gurth's stairs>
|>
|No, thw magic loos from bioware was last week. Now, what's this "I am the
|greatest" thing you mentioned?

That's the arguement as to which character type (physad,
sam, mage, rigger, etc) is the baddest. Quick answer, each
is the master of his domain.

One quick way to recognize a repeat argument is when none
of the old-timers, such as Gurth (with all due respect),
get involved. Or, they'll chime in with a "Here we go
again <sigh>." BTW, I'm not quite an old-timer yet. Only
been here a year.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 6
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: I'm back....with some enchanting questions
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:23:48 -0500 (EST)
>|No, thw magic loos from bioware was last week. Now, what's this "I am the
>|greatest" thing you mentioned?
>
>That's the arguement as to which character type (physad,
>sam, mage, rigger, etc) is the baddest. Quick answer, each
>is the master of his domain.
>
Oh, okay... Thanx..:)
>One quick way to recognize a repeat argument is when none
>of the old-timers, such as Gurth (with all due respect),
>get involved. Or, they'll chime in with a "Here we go
>again <sigh>." BTW, I'm not quite an old-timer yet. Only
>been here a year.
>
>
Gee, you're an old timer to...:) I been here a month...:)



****************************************************************************
-Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich
chaos@*****.com
Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
****************************************************************************

"I say we go back to the ship, and nuke the
site from Orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
-Ripley, "Aliens"
Message no. 7
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: I'm back....with some enchanting questions
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 01:57:48 -0500 (EST)
>Say, aren't we about due for the magic/essence loss due to
>bioware debate again? Or is "I am the greatest" next on
>the list? <ducks and hides under Gurth's stairs>

I am the greatest?
You mean someone is playing Muhammed Ali?!?!?!
:-)



FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"C'mon, let's give 'em two more turns to live."
Message no. 8
From: Paolo Marcucci <paolo@*********.it>
Subject: Re: I'm back....with some enchanting questions
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 09:35:22 +0200
Steven Ratkovich wrote:

> You mean they were talking about that 6 months ago? We just got over
> another one justa coupleof weeks ago...:)

Ehm... being myself on this list from 1992 (yeck!) I've seen things
you'll never see, C-beams on... ops, sorry. The grounding through
quickenings debate usually pops out every 4-4.5 months, spread viciously
for 2 weeks and is gunned down by the Powers Of The List (no, I'll not
reveal who they are :)

Just wait until the ammo discussion heats :) up!

Or the real magik debate, or the magic vs religion, or the physad vs
sammi...

Well, to keep things funny, I'm posting two nice lines from yesterday
evening's game:

1) mage: Manabolt!
(goon resist)
(rigger well hidden behind his van): Damn, LEAD, not bullshit!

- well, in italian sounds better :) -

2) sammi: He's got a Dealdy? Ok, I'll use a trauma pet...
GM (me): A cute furry kitten comes out of a dark corner and starts to
lap the mage's wounds

- this is toward the conclusion of a run that serves me as an
introduction to Harlequin's Back. They are full of cute furry kittens,
by now ::))))) and clowns crossing the streets...

Paolo
Message no. 9
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: I'm back....with some enchanting questions
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 12:47:05 +0100
Steven Ratkovich said on 21:23/30 Sep 96...

> > BTW, I'm not quite an old-timer yet. Only
> >been here a year.
> >
> >
> Gee, you're an old timer to...:) I been here a month...:)

If that's the way this is going, I've been on this list since January or
February 1994, with a forced absence from mid-June to about October or
November that same year. Back then, it was still at Hearn.nic,surfnet.nl,
from which we were forced to move almost exactly 11 months ago.

But I guess we'll now get a post from Rob Hayden or one of the other
*real* old-timers :) about how they've been here since ShadowRN first got
started up...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If I had it my way I'd hear you say that it's okay.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 10
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: I'm back....with some enchanting questions
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 07:33:44 -0600 (MDT)
Paolo Marcucci wrote:
|
|Steven Ratkovich wrote:
|
|> You mean they were talking about that 6 months ago? We just got over
|> another one justa coupleof weeks ago...:)
|
|Ehm... being myself on this list from 1992 (yeck!) I've seen things
|you'll never see, C-beams on... ops, sorry. The grounding through
|quickenings debate usually pops out every 4-4.5 months, spread viciously
|for 2 weeks and is gunned down by the Powers Of The List (no, I'll not
|reveal who they are :)

They're out there, lurking at the edges just waiting to pounce on an
unsuspecting newbie :)

|Just wait until the ammo discussion heats :) up!

Gram weights, velocity, drag, foot pounds, shock, deflection, etc.
Actually kind of interesting.

|Or the real magik debate, or the magic vs religion, or the physad vs
|sammi...

You forgot about the law vs the sinless.

|2) sammi: He's got a Deadly? Ok, I'll use a trauma pet...
| GM (me): A cute furry kitten comes out of a dark corner and starts to
|lap the mage's wounds

LOL

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 11
From: Paolo Marcucci <paolo@*********.it>
Subject: Re: I'm back....with some enchanting questions
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 09:35:22 +0200
>Ehm... being myself on this list from 1992 (yeck!) I've seen things
>you'll never see, C-beams on... ops, sorry. The grounding through
>quickenings debate usually pops out every 4-4.5 months, spread viciously
>for 2 weeks and is gunned down by the Powers Of The List (no, I'll not
>reveal who they are :)
>
>Just wait until the ammo discussion heats :) up!
>
>Or the real magik debate, or the magic vs religion, or the physad vs
>sammi...
>
>Well, to keep things funny, I'm posting two nice lines from yesterday
>evening's game:
[[snipped bit from game]]
> and clowns crossing the streets...
I went thru Harlequin and Harlequin's Back(as a player) and I remember somethin
g about a clown that kept buggin us......we never could quit hit him with the
van......hmmmmmmmm

<<<<<<<Amused in Akron>>>>>>>

"Hey U-Gene, what kinda fruit do ya get off one of yer AVL trees?"
--Bob(the hungry programmer)
Message no. 12
From: kumquat@*****.com
Subject: Re: I'm back....with some enchanting questions
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 17:53:34 -0500
SH>Steven Ratkovich said on 21:23/30 Sep 96...

SH>> > BTW, I'm not quite an old-timer yet. Only
SH>> >been here a year.
SH>> >
SH>> >
SH>> Gee, you're an old timer to...:) I been here a month...:)
Gurth said :
SH>If that's the way this is going, I've been on this list since January or
SH>February 1994, with a forced absence from mid-June to about October or
SH>November that same year. Back then, it was still at Hearn.nic,surfnet.nl,
SH>from which we were forced to move almost exactly 11 months ago.

SH>But I guess we'll now get a post from Rob Hayden or one of the other
SH>*real* old-timers :) about how they've been here since ShadowRN first got
SH>started up...

Ugh. Though I first joined the list in mid-1993, I know that at least
six months of that time was spent in netdeath, I've changed 3 residences
and 4 email accounts, and a considerable amount more pairs of
socks.<smirk> Besides, like Paolo, JD Falk, and other "geezers" round
these parts, I lurk mainly... kinda like a dehabilitating net.illness...
you get old, you get jaded, and just don't post like you did when ya
were a whippersnapper...<smirk>
Here's to hoping Gurth never gets what I'll name the
Marcucci-Falk Syndrome..... (though it *would* be easier on my
diskquota) <smirk>

Just My Two Pence.
The Kumquat.

Support Whirled Peas.
Message no. 13
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: I'm back....with some enchanting questions
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 11:59:25 +0100
kumquat@*****.com said on 17:53/ 1 Oct 96...

> Here's to hoping Gurth never gets what I'll name the
> Marcucci-Falk Syndrome..... (though it *would* be easier on my
> diskquota) <smirk>

I'm hoping along with you... (Whether anyone else does, I'm not so sure,
what with this mailflow and all :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Unk... Unkn... There's no name on it!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 14
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: I'm back....with some enchanting questions
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 02:21:24 -0700
Steven Ratkovich wrote:
> You mean they were talking about that 6 months ago? We just got over
> another one justa coupleof weeks ago...:)


That is because this list is like the Midguard serpent..twined round about
the earth and consuming its tail..always cycling and recycling the same
information..therefore we are doomed to return to each subject over and
over..Not that it is a bad thing.. ;)
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 15
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: I'm back....with some enchanting questions
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 02:21:32 -0700
Gurth wrote:

> If that's the way this is going, I've been on this list since January or
> February 1994, with a forced absence from mid-June to about October or
> November that same year. Back then, it was still at Hearn.nic,surfnet.nl,
> from which we were forced to move almost exactly 11 months ago.
>

I kinda miss those days too..Back before the WEB..when the only way to get
around was FTP and such...Now there are all these pictures slowing things
down..Of course I was also on a 2400 baud modem at the time..but hey it was
enough..so it took 2 hours to download 1meg of data..So what..

> But I guess we'll now get a post from Rob Hayden or one of the other
> *real* old-timers :) about how they've been here since ShadowRN first got
> started up...
>

I haven't seen his sig since I signed back on after my forced absence..What
ever happened to our Fearfu..Fearless Leer..Leader??
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 16
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: I'm back....with some enchanting questions
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 12:39:28 +0100
GRANITE said on 2:21/ 4 Oct 96...

> I kinda miss those days too..Back before the WEB..when the only way to get
> around was FTP and such...Now there are all these pictures slowing things
> down..Of course I was also on a 2400 baud modem at the time..but hey it was
> enough..so it took 2 hours to download 1meg of data..So what..

I had a uni connection, so downloading went okay (faster than with my 2400
baud modem at home, anyway :) Still it took like 10 minutes to get a
single RTF issue of the NAGEE, I think...

> I haven't seen his sig since I signed back on after my forced absence..What
> ever happened to our Fearfu..Fearless Leer..Leader??

That's what's got me wondering as well. I haven't seen anything of him in
months (last I remember is his "Go see Independence Day!" post of early
July, though he may have made more). Maybe he finally did retire, as he
was thinking about the summer before last, but failed to let the rest of
us in on it?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"You can ground supercalifragilistic ammo through elven illuminati!"
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 17
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: I'm back....with some enchanting questions
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 10:35:26 +1000 (EST)
> When it comes to creating a focus with Arcana, I can't find any
> reference as to how to determine which Arcana are required for any given
> focus. What's to stop an enchanter from using lead (12 NY per raw unit)
> instead of gold (10,000 NY per raw unit) if Mineral Arcana is used? How
> do you determine the type of Arcana that is necessary in the first place
> (Herbal, Mineral, Metal)?

Welcome back, and here's my take on this:

There's nothing to stop them. As far as I remember, anyway. But, let's
face it, a nice Focus in the form of a ring, say, isn't going to look
really pretty in lead. It would be, I'd say, an RP thing - an enchanter
too cheap to pay for decent materials is going to get some dodgy looks
from a) anyone who sees his handiwork and b) the rest of the magic
community, particularly those who pride themselves as artisans...



Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 18
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.edu>
Subject: Re: I'm back....with some enchanting questions
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 08:01:32 -0400
The Jestyr wrote:
>
> > When it comes to creating a focus with Arcana, I can't find any
> > reference as to how to determine which Arcana are required for any given
> > focus. What's to stop an enchanter from using lead (12 NY per raw unit)
> > instead of gold (10,000 NY per raw unit) if Mineral Arcana is used? How
> > do you determine the type of Arcana that is necessary in the first place
> > (Herbal, Mineral, Metal)?

> Welcome back, and here's my take on this:

> There's nothing to stop them. As far as I remember, anyway. But, let's
> face it, a nice Focus in the form of a ring, say, isn't going to look
> really pretty in lead. It would be, I'd say, an RP thing - an enchanter
> too cheap to pay for decent materials is going to get some dodgy looks
> from a) anyone who sees his handiwork and b) the rest of the magic
> community, particularly those who pride themselves as artisans...

Thanks for the on-topic response. I am glad I didn't just weed-out the
posts with this subject heading...

This makes sense, except for one point. The arcana do *not* have to be part
of the focus. They can be "used up" in the process. (The grimoire gives
you, as the designer of the foci, the choice.) Thus, you can still use lead
as the arcanum, but make the focus out of gold or silver (or whatever). If
you were going to have a gold or silver ring as the focus anyway, you would
save lots of money by only using lead as the arcana, instead of more gold,
etc.

I would suggest making the object to be enchanted cost according to what it
will be (material wise) in addition to the other enchanting materials costs.
Thus, if someone wants a gold talisman as a power focus, they pay the
appropriate amount for the gold, then have a jeweler design the talisman,
then add arcana, etc., then bond.

As for store bought foci, the cost of the materials used to make the same
focus would be included in the price, and they pay the usual amount for
bonding the focus (arcana don't help here).

This might help solve the problem a bit. But it certainly doesn't stop the
player from choosing lead over gold when it comes to arcana.

Something I have done is to average out the cost of all the arcana (I think
it's somewhere around 4,000 NY). Then, when someone wants to have an
arcanum used in creating their focus, they pay that amount for one arcanum.
You can use a die roll to +/- the cost if you like.
--
______________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 19
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: I'm back....with some enchanting questions
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 21:42:46 +0000
On 7 Oct 96 at 8:01, Justin Pinnow wrote:
> This makes sense, except for one point. The arcana do *not* have to be part
> of the focus. They can be "used up" in the process. (The grimoire gives
> you, as the designer of the foci, the choice.) Thus, you can still use lead
> as the arcanum, but make the focus out of gold or silver (or whatever). If
> you were going to have a gold or silver ring as the focus anyway, you would
> save lots of money by only using lead as the arcana, instead of more gold,
> etc.
But the decision wether the Arcanum is used up in the process is _not_ done in
the formula. The "Material Basis" (as per Grim. p. 24) can be something
different (Gold, not Lead), but Grim p. 25 states "Whether the materials are
built into the focus or simply consumed during the ritual, they are bound to
that focus and cannot be retrieved for any other purpose." And this would
allow the GM to describe the Power Focus Force 8 (Golden Ring), made with lead
arcanum as looking "like dirty, unclean gold" since the lead has gone into the
material basis.


Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | "If we had to buy |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de|you, you wouldn't be|
| \___ __/ | | worth the price." |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | - E. Weatherwax |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | (T. Pratchett)|
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 20
From: "C. Turner" <Cturner@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: I'm back....with some enchanting questions
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 12:29:01 -0500
At 05:53 PM 10/1/96 -0500, you wrote:
>SH>Steven Ratkovich said on 21:23/30 Sep 96...
>
>SH>> > BTW, I'm not quite an old-timer yet. Only
>SH>> >been here a year.
>SH>> >
>SH>> >
>SH>> Gee, you're an old timer to...:) I been here a month...:)
>Gurth said :

>SH>But I guess we'll now get a post from Rob Hayden or one of the other
>SH>*real* old-timers :) about how they've been here since ShadowRN first got
>SH>started up...
>

Can't say as I have been following the 'list' since the *old* days, but I've
been here on and off for a while. Matter of fact, I carried the list as the
admin for a while back in , um, '92 I thing, might have been '91.

Just thought I'd say hello

.
Curtis W. Turner
Cturner@**.net

Further Reading

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Disclaimer

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Thwap!