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Message no. 1
From: William Monroe Ashe <wma6617@****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: immortal elves ... love 'em or hate 'em
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:50:19 -0500
In this list there seems to be quite a bias (among certain members) against
the IE. But, as I wander throughout the net looking at various webpages
of games in progress I see that quite a few are using them.

So,
for the sake of argument (and that's what we're really here for isn't it? ;-) )

What suck about the IE? What are really cool about the IE?
(and of course the whole horrors thingy too)


note in my game I'm using all sorts of bad guys, but not the IE (mostly I
can't afford the Earthdawn books that one needs to do a really good job)


regards

Bill
Message no. 2
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: immortal elves ... love 'em or hate 'em
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:59:41 EDT
On Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:50:19 -0500 William Monroe Ashe
<wma6617@****.TAMU.EDU> writes:
<<In this list there seems to be quite a bias (among certain members)>>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hmm...methinks you might be talking about Pete (naaaa....;)

<<against the IE. But, as I wander throughout the net looking at various
webpages of games in progress I see that quite a few are using them.>>

<<So, for the sake of argument (and that's what we're really here for
isn't it? ;-) )>>


Sure, if it's argument you want, this is certainly one way to get it:)


<<What suck about the IE? What are really cool about the IE?
(and of course the whole horrors thingy too)>>


The problem with the IE is the whole 'the IE will save us' mentality
(note: this comes dangerously close to some of what you hear with the Big
D). I don't have a problem with the idea, I think that it's the execution
that has to be seriously changed. I like the idea of the Techno-Magical
Immortal Elf Cabal, manipulating everything from backstage for their
benefit, a bit like the Forsaken from the WoT: all-powerful beings
manipulating world events to suit their end goals, all from behind the
scenes, without any (or with very little, anyway) obvious involvement.
But then, I'm a conspiracy theorist at heart:) I'll admit to not actually
having any involvement of my own with the IE (thank God) and that my
opinions here have been largely shaped by the opinions of others (Pete
and Bull most notably, I think), but this is certainly how such a plot
device should be used, IMO. Giving them rule of one nation probably
wasn't the best idea FASA has ever had. Giving them two was definitely a
bad thing. Giving them THREE?! It's time for a South-African revolution,
methinks;)

As for the Horrors: another good idea spoiled by poor execution. The
Horrors should have always remained as an ever-present, just - over - the
- horizon threat, an Armageddon - style thing (be afraid, be very
afraid), but direct involvement should be kept to a minimum. If you want
to use them as a sort evil conspiracy or a Lovecraftian Cthulhu,
whatever, but the idea of injecting Horrors into SR directly <shudder>
Realistically, SR would never have made, with the exceptions of the two
Tirs and Azania. As I said, leave the Horrors out, except as one of those
things to hang over the PCs heads in case you want to go all - out
Armageddon, in which case, that's your right:) But don't make it
official.

Further ED involvement: I like SR having this back-story and history, I
don't want to see SR become ED with guns, in part because that's just one
step from AD&D with guns <shudder>. (Don't read that as me saying that ED
is one step away from AD&D, I was referring to the added fantasy aspect
that would be given to SR and to the fact that we already have _enough_
problems with power levels and that ED Adepts would not help:) Having
links and common ground between games is great. But they need to remain
two separate games. I'm not opposed to involvement between the SR
universe and the universe of Battletech, so long as the two games remain
separate and distinct. Much more involvement between SR and ED would
probably be too much (if it isn't already).

<Forrest_Gump>
And that's all I have to say about that.
</Forrest_Gump>


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1


<<note in my game I'm using all sorts of bad guys, but not the IE (mostly
I can't afford the Earthdawn books that one needs to do a really good
job)>>
Message no. 3
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: immortal elves ... love 'em or hate 'em
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:18:08 +1000
> What suck about the IE? What are really cool about the IE?
> (and of course the whole horrors thingy too)
>

Shit, you had to ask, didn't you?

You'll either get a really huge response to this post, or none at all.

Basically the majority of 'IE haters' dislike them becasue there was a
trend that every new Nation Sourcebook about an elven nation made them
out to be super human, incredibly intellignet, extremely powerful beings.

Read the end of the Aztlan Sourcebook, and match names......It seems that
everyone who is anyone is an immortal elf.

It smacks of Tolkein or the Illuminati conspiracy, and if I personally
wanted that I'd play Rolemaster or Illuminati.

Thankfully the direction of SR has changed, bringing back the Cyberpunk
that distinguishes the game from AD$D.

Marty
Message no. 4
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: immortal elves ... love 'em or hate 'em
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 06:56:11 -0600
John E Pederson wrote:
|
| <<What suck about the IE? What are really cool about the IE?
| (and of course the whole horrors thingy too)>>
|
| The problem with the IE is the whole 'the IE will save us' mentality

My problem with the IE, is that they're so childish. I'd expect
someone who's been around for several millinia to be a lot more
mature, or outright insane. I've got no problem with them trying to
control things from behind the scenes, its just the way that they do
it that gets to me.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 5
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: immortal elves ... love 'em or hate 'em
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 12:43:45 -0500
At 09:50 PM 8/12/97 -0500, you wrote:
>In this list there seems to be quite a bias (among certain members) against
>the IE.

And the world is a better place for it...

>But, as I wander throughout the net looking at various webpages
>of games in progress I see that quite a few are using them.

You can't get all the munchkins silenced...

>So, for the sake of argument

Heh...

>What suck about the IE?

The fact that Shadowrun has ingrained them as the most powerful and
important faction in it's world. They're at one time the saviors and at
another the attackers. They are involved (strictly in the background, of
course) in every SR plotline. They're just too f*****g fluffy of a thing to
have been included in this game. They make SR way too "light". They're
every munchkin's wet dream. I really want to go off on the IE for a few
hours, but I think you can get where I'm coming from. There is simply
nothing good about them.

>What are really cool about the IE?

The fact that FASA is phasing their overwhelming importance and presence out
of the new material. I thank whatever gods there are for that...

>(and of course the whole horrors thingy too)

Blah, FASA never should've tried to connect ED and SR. It was a bad
mistake, and one that can't be corrected now. In a perfect world, the
plothole that Dunklezahn fell into would also swallow the EI members whole.
Who knows, maybe FASA plans this for the future (please?).

>note in my game I'm using all sorts of bad guys, but not the IE (mostly I
>can't afford the Earthdawn books that one needs to do a really good job)

Don't succumb to the temptation. Never mention the EI to your players,
never think of them as existing in your game, and your campaign will be the
better for it...
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 6
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: immortal elves ... love 'em or hate 'em
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 01:12:06 +0100
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.970812214613.23260A-100000@******.tamu.edu>,
William Monroe Ashe <wma6617@****.TAMU.EDU> rambled on endlessly about
immortal elves ... love 'em or hate 'em
>In this list there seems to be quite a bias (among certain members) against
>the IE.

Ahah! You noticed then. :)

>But, as I wander throughout the net looking at various webpages
>of games in progress I see that quite a few are using them.

IE are a useful tool for total out and out munchkinism. So, if you want
something ridiculously over the top, completely ludicrous, and
unbelievably irrationally powerful, use the IE. Otherwise, like many
people the IE are obliterated from the game, or reduced to a
conspiracist background of strong political implication but no direct
effect or influence that can be recognised by characters or players.

>So,
>for the sake of argument (and that's what we're really here for isn't it? ;-) )
>
>What suck about the IE?

Their entire existence, the whole concept, and their use in source
material and novels. Not the fact that they are mentioned, but the
whole Tolkienesque power and abilties attributed to them. The whole
"the IE are going to save mankind/the world", time and time again.
Their obvious and sickening links (through hints and munchkins like
Harley and Ehran) to ED, and Horrors. The obviously direct connections
to ED, (which in my opinion should never have happened. ED, SR and BT
should remain exactly as they started - seperate). There is more than
sufficient history and wonder, mysticism and mystery in the real world
without involving another game system - for whatever reason.

The IE, are one of FASA's greatest mistakes, and kudo's to the DLOH,
he's doing his damndest to fix that problem, with little or no
assistance from the idiots who write the novels at the moment.

The incredibly disgusting way the IE are involved in everything that is
of anywhere close to a world shaking event, and are invariably the
source and saviours of these events. The fact that we have two defined
and two suggested Elven "super" nations. A situation that should never
have occurred. The mere suggestion of another Elven power in Azania,
and the hint of one in South America... (can't remember the reference),
is beyond any shadow of doubt the biggest mistake that has ever been
made in the history of RPG development. If one wants to play super
powerful, immortal elves, just pick up Rolemaster MERP. The involvement
of elves, orks, trolls, etc. in SHadowrun is perfectly acceptable, the
involvement of EarhDawn in Shadowrun in such blatant and ridiculous
manner, is not. I'm going to stop here, before I prove Bull right
concerning his "volume" remark

>What are really cool about the IE?

Mike Mulvihill's <god bless his cotton socks> decision to attempt to
phase them out into the darkest background area he can find. A kindred
soul in that he also appears to hate the IE.

>(and of course the whole horrors thingy too)

Horrors. Great if you want 2058 Shadow-Cthulhu, - (although CthulhuPunk
(net based), Grymms Cybertales, or Alternative Punk stuff (RTG), Dark
Conspiracy, or direct conversion from COC would be better) - bad if you
want Shadowrun. The Horrors are the one thing that should have remained
part of EarthDawn alone. Shadowrun magic cannot cope with Horrors,
there is no way (except through the bloody IE) that mankind can defend
against a threat of which he knows nothing, and seeing as there are no
artefacts, archaeologocial remains or anything else left behind by the
Earthdawn civilisation, (at least nothing that's mentioned in Shadowrun
source material) mankind don't know about the horrors, and therefore
would logically be destroyed by them. Harley's Back, was in my opinion
the most ludicrous and stupid of all the modules released by Fasa, and
was immediately consigned to the "AD&D file" (big box in attic).

The suggested implications of Horror/IE involved in Dunky's
assassination (and the - I think, confirmation from the Koke books
<sigh>) is utterly beyond logical comprehension. But this is a phase of
FASA's life where I have a number of loud disagreements.

>note in my game I'm using all sorts of bad guys, but not the IE (mostly I
>can't afford the Earthdawn books that one needs to do a really good job)

Fine, that's a good start, please do yourself a favour, and don't bother
involving them. Don't get me wrong. EarthDawn is an excellent product,
with well designed source books, some beautiful artwork, and excellent
source material (something I'm waiting to rub off on Shadowrun while
under Mike's leadership). As a seperate game, it's tough, dangerous and
fun. as a history for Shadowrun, it's way over the top.

I like the idea of Shadowrun having a past and a history, but there are
more than enough RL legends concerning Dragons, trolls, elves et al,
without making an arbitrary and mistaken connection to another game
systems and game world. Unfortunately, it's _way_ too late to mend that
problem.

I'll shut up now, before I fly off for a few hours.

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
Message no. 7
From: Chuck Stevens <harmonix@**.NET>
Subject: Re: immortal elves ... love 'em or hate 'em
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:37:50 -0700
----------
> From: William Monroe Ashe <wma6617@****.TAMU.EDU>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: immortal elves ... love 'em or hate 'em
> Date: Tuesday, August 12, 1997 7:50 PM
>
> In this list there seems to be quite a bias (among certain members)
against
> the IE. But, as I wander throughout the net looking at various webpages
> of games in progress I see that quite a few are using them.
>
> So,
> for the sake of argument (and that's what we're really here for isn't it?
;-) )
>
> What suck about the IE? What are really cool about the IE?
> (and of course the whole horrors thingy too)
>

Personally, I like the immortal Elves. Adds a sense of history and
continuity between Shadowrun, and the remote past (EarthDawn, perhaps).
Adds a sense of mystery - I love speculating about mysteries! Who's
immortal? How did it happen? In what ways did they participate in
history? How can I become one? :) The fact that there are those who know
everything that happened, and yet aren't telling, drives me crazy (but in a
good way). Makes for some interesting plotlines in books and adventures.
Immortal Dragons turn up the heat even further. More mystery!
I'm ambivalent about introducing Horrors into Shadowrun. The threat of
Horror-incursion is good for a few books and adventures, but, in the end,
the Heroes should be victorious and keep the Horrors at bay until the peak
of the magic cycle, when they become unstoppable. Since that won't occur
for another two to three thousand years, that is out of the scope of
Shadowrun. (You could claim that human-generated astral pollution and
blood-magic will bring the Horrors sooner, but still keep it out of the
scope of SR). Besides, there are more than enough Massively Powerful
Adversaries(tm) in SR as it is, without introducing an early Scourge.

------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Stevens
harmonix@**.net

"If your god is so omnipotent,
why does he need my money?"
- Salmoneus
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: immortal elves ... love 'em or hate 'em
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:03:00 GMT
on 12.08.97 wma6617@****.TAMU.EDU wrote:

w> What suck about the IE?

They ARE. That's the problem. The IE are the cure for everything, they are
more powerful than anything (Your average IE has more magic in his socks,
than there is in all of Aztlan.), impossibly intelligent
and...well...immortal. They are GODs and that sucks. One of the *really*
nice things of SR is that they didn't include any gods. Then came the IE
and hell, that nice feature was lost. Another thing is this 'every genius
we had must have been an IE' thing they brought up. Arthur, Leonardo,
Beethoven all were IE. Thats one of the things I *refuse* to accept in SR
(I'm serious: If my GM ever brings this up, I *will* ignore it.). This
fucks up the whole feeling in SR. SR is dark, unpredictable, dangerous but
then <disney-club theme> "H-A-R L-E-Y saves us anyway!" </disney-club
theme>. I want no no-lose game. If there's no chance that Fuchi drops a
nuclear bomb and Essen to wipe out SK, there's no cyberpunk. If everything
is planned by a Oh-so-advanced person, why the f**k do I fight, anyway?

I remember one time, when we were designing highly deadly devices for SR
just for fun (completely stupid stuff, but nice stupid stuff) and some guy
always said "But *Harlequin* wouldn't take any damage!"


w> What are really cool about the IE?

Dunno. Tell me!

w> (and of course the whole horrors thingy too)

The horrors are cool in ED, but are complete nonsense in SR. Very funny:
Nobody can handle them *except*......have a guess.....right! The IEs. Keep
ED stuff to ED and SR to SR (FASA doesn't mess around with ED by
introducing wired reflexes there, do they?!).

w> note in my game I'm using all sorts of bad guys, but not the IE (mostly I
w> can't afford the Earthdawn books that one needs to do a really good job)

Keep it that way. If the IE are the bad guys, you will need one good IE to
fight them (leaving your players to watch the fight). Take shapers,
spirits, toxics, bugs, the UB, if you have to, but no IE. They are NO fun
to anybody but some twisted guys at FASA (fortunatly, Mike M. isn't one of
them).

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 9
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: immortal elves ... love 'em or hate 'em
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 15:54:53 -0400
William Monroe Ashe once dared to write,

>In this list there seems to be quite a bias (among certain members) against
>the IE. But, as I wander throughout the net looking at various webpages
>of games in progress I see that quite a few are using them.

I would like to know why the IE get all the attention. It's never
Dunkelzahn did this Damien Knight did that. The Megacorps are like unto
godhood as far as power goes but you don't hear players complaining about
the big eight or why they can't bring a megacorporation to it's knees.
Does one doubt a megacorporation's power to destroy a dragon or IE if it
so suited it's needs. Where did this concept of the IE being the pinnacle
of Shadowrun power come from? Our misunderstanding of the IE is what gave
them this power.
As far as I'm concerned the IE will not die of old age. Well that
wraps up all the special abilities one gets for being immortal. They've
had millennium building their power base (if they wanted one) and the
accumulated knowledge that they could gain from all those years but that
is under their own initiative. They have had more practice wielding the
magic we have relatively uncovered (coming from a world which magic is
powerful and commonplace I will generalize all IE are magicians of some
sort). Let's see, and THEY CAN BE KILLED! They all had to take an oath to
agree not to try to currently kill one another. The rest is shaped by
their personality.
It's all a matter of keeping one's perspective. Why don't we just
gave up flogging this dead horse and starting caterwauling over why
almost all runs are against/for Megacorps. Talk about a limited campaign
style.


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"Say what you mean, and say it mean!"
-Scraping Foetus off the Wheel, Ramrod

I am MC23
Message no. 10
From: Kristling the Weird <kristlingweird@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: immortal elves ... love 'em or hate 'em
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 16:44:53 -0400
Tobias Berghoff wrote:
>
> on 12.08.97 wma6617@****.TAMU.EDU wrote:
>
> w> What suck about the IE?
>
> They ARE. That's the problem. The IE are the cure for everything, they are
> more powerful than anything (Your average IE has more magic in his socks,
> than there is in all of Aztlan.), impossibly intelligent
> and...well...immortal.
MMMMM..... no. I think there may be some immortal elf out there who just
happens to like sitting at home, watching trid, rather than prepare the
world for "The Enemy". Some that don't know or care about the arcan
mysteries of magic. It's just we haven't seen them yet. Might be a neat
way to save the concept.

>They are GODs and that sucks. One of the *really*
> nice things of SR is that they didn't include any gods. Then came the IE
> and hell, that nice feature was lost. Another thing is this 'every genius
> we had must have been an IE' thing they brought up. Arthur, Leonardo,
> Beethoven all were IE. Thats one of the things I *refuse* to accept in SR
> (I'm serious: If my GM ever brings this up, I *will* ignore it.). This
> fucks up the whole feeling in SR. SR is dark, unpredictable, dangerous but
> then <disney-club theme> "H-A-R L-E-Y saves us anyway!"
</disney-club
> theme>.
You forget one thing: The IE would see any runners as pawns. Disposable
ones at that. The one time our GM used Harley, he decided we weren't
acting according to his grand plan, and we were left helpless illegally
in the Tir.
>I want no no-lose game.
Then don't run one. It's in how WE use what FASA gives us.

>If there's no chance that Fuchi drops a nuclear bomb and Essen to wipe out SK, there's
no cyberpunk. If >everything is planned by a Oh-so-advanced person, why the f**k do I
fight, anyway?
No one said they control every thing. Damien Knight and the rest of his
end are a group I haven't seen under IE control. I assume a group isn't
under IE control til I discover different, not the other way around.
>
> I remember one time, when we were designing highly deadly devices for SR
> just for fun (completely stupid stuff, but nice stupid stuff) and some guy
> always said "But *Harlequin* wouldn't take any damage!"
Bah. I don't think so. He would. I as a GM would make him. It's up to
the GM and players how what FASA give us is used.
>
> w> (and of course the whole horrors thingy too)
>
> The horrors are cool in ED, but are complete nonsense in SR. Very funny:
> Nobody can handle them *except*......have a guess.....right! The IEs. Keep
> ED stuff to ED and SR to SR (FASA doesn't mess around with ED by
> introducing wired reflexes there, do they?!).

I wonder.... What if, suddenly, some one realizes that the horrors can't
arrive in SR's Sixth World because the magic is "alien" to them. I would
love to see Harley find out he's been wating his time...
>
> w> note in my game I'm using all sorts of bad guys, but not the IE (mostly I
> w> can't afford the Earthdawn books that one needs to do a really good job)

Then don't. Sculpt your own game world.
>
> Keep it that way. If the IE are the bad guys, you will need one good IE to
> fight them (leaving your players to watch the fight). Take shapers,
> spirits, toxics, bugs, the UB, if you have to, but no IE. They are NO fun
> to anybody but some twisted guys at FASA (fortunatly, Mike M. isn't one of
> them).

I've seen the immortal elves.... I know they aren't the "GODS" every one
says they are. If they were that powerful, harley wouldn't have fallen
for that illusion I cast.

--What we see, so shall be.
Kristling "The Weird" Ravenwing
Now, where is that datachip the guys the nice UB people gave me? Oh,
here it is.....
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/5482/
kristlingweird@*********.com
Message no. 11
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: immortal elves ... love 'em or hate 'em
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 09:21:08 +1000
> They ARE. That's the problem. The IE are the cure for everything, they are
> more powerful than anything (Your average IE has more magic in his socks,
> than there is in all of Aztlan.), impossibly intelligent
> and...well...immortal. They are GODs and that sucks. One of the *really*
> nice things of SR is that they didn't include any gods. Then came the IE
> and hell, that nice feature was lost. Another thing is this 'every genius
> we had must have been an IE' thing they brought up. Arthur, Leonardo,
> Beethoven all were IE.

Not to mention the Queen of England at one stage or other.

>SR is dark, unpredictable, dangerous but
> then <disney-club theme> "H-A-R L-E-Y saves us anyway!"
</disney-club
> theme>. I want no no-lose game. If there's no chance that Fuchi drops a
> nuclear bomb and Essen to wipe out SK, there's no cyberpunk. If everything
> is planned by a Oh-so-advanced person, why the f**k do I fight, anyway?
>

Harleyquin didn't take away the cyberpunk or dark feeling of the game; There
was always the threat of the Horrors coming.... The suspense and the
'maybe' was the best part.

The _other_ immortal elves that started popping up in control of every
governmental and every historical figure started to fuck it up.

> w> What are really cool about the IE?
>
> Dunno. Tell me!
>

Ummm, how about every munchkin can go "That's what I wanna be when I grow up"

> Keep it that way. If the IE are the bad guys, you will need one good IE to
> fight them (leaving your players to watch the fight). Take shapers,
> spirits, toxics, bugs, the UB, if you have to, but no IE. They are NO fun
> to anybody but some twisted guys at FASA (fortunatly, Mike M. isn't one of
> them).
>

As an aside, I think that Aztechnology needs to be taken down a peg or
two on the 'Godliness' scale. Basically, taking on Aztechnology is a
good way to die, and that's unbalanced, considering they're just one
megacorp among eight and the others are fair game.

Marty
Message no. 12
From: Jason & Deanna Rodhouse <jade@***.NET>
Subject: Re: immortal elves ... love 'em or hate 'em
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 03:46:06 +1000
MC23 once wrote:

> I would like to know why the IE get all the attention. It's never
> Dunkelzahn did this Damien Knight did that. The Megacorps are like unto
> godhood as far as power goes but you don't hear players complaining about
> the big eight or why they can't bring a megacorporation to it's knees.
> Does one doubt a megacorporation's power to destroy a dragon or IE if it
> so suited it's needs. Where did this concept of the IE being the pinnacle
> of Shadowrun power come from? Our misunderstanding of the IE is what gave
> them this power.
> As far as I'm concerned the IE will not die of old age. Well that
> wraps up all the special abilities one gets for being immortal. They've
> had millennium building their power base (if they wanted one) and the
> accumulated knowledge that they could gain from all those years but that
> is under their own initiative. They have had more practice wielding the
> magic we have relatively uncovered (coming from a world which magic is
> powerful and commonplace I will generalize all IE are magicians of some
> sort). Let's see, and THEY CAN BE KILLED! They all had to take an oath to
> agree not to try to currently kill one another. The rest is shaped by
> their personality.
> It's all a matter of keeping one's perspective. Why don't we just
> gave up flogging this dead horse and starting caterwauling over why
> almost all runs are against/for Megacorps. Talk about a limited campaign
> style.

Amen brother!!! I've never really understood the hatred people reserve
for the IEs. The points you brought up are great points. For me, the IEs
are more of a background color or an extra spice than the actual end all
be all of any campaign or destiny of the SR world. They add flavor.
Nothing more, nothing less. Before anyone says that they don't like
saccharine in their chili, neither do I. However, I don't dwell on the
relative power of the IEs because they are so far removed from the
campaigns I'm involved in(AFAIK).

Ya know? I keep trying but can't add anything to MC23's post that he
didn't already say better. Enough from me.

Pilgrim
Message no. 13
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: immortal elves ... love 'em or hate 'em
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 05:57:42 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-17 04:24:38 EDT, you write:

> As an aside, I think that Aztechnology needs to be taken down a peg or
> two on the 'Godliness' scale. Basically, taking on Aztechnology is a
> good way to die, and that's unbalanced, considering they're just one
> megacorp among eight and the others are fair game.

Heh. First time I ever played SR, we ran DNA/DOA, with an experienced GM.
This was back in First Edition. I think we ended up killing 3 of the
top-types who were lurking around in the complex. Since then, Aztech has come
back to haunt me, up until the time I retired, when I became just about as
safe as I could - CEO of a Second Tier Megacorp. =) Aztech may not becapable
of topling, but you can frag 'em over and live, if you're smart.

Wolfstar
Message no. 14
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: immortal elves ... love 'em or hate 'em
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 06:17:08 -0500
You wrote:
> They ARE. That's the problem. The IE are the cure for everything, they are
> more powerful than anything (Your average IE has more magic in his socks,
> than there is in all of Aztlan.), impossibly intelligent
> and...well...immortal. They are GODs and that sucks. One of the *really*
> nice things of SR is that they didn't include any gods. Then came the IE
> and hell, that nice feature was lost.

So just don't include them in your game-world. It's not as if they are so
integral to the world that you can't write them out.

losthalo
Message no. 15
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: immortal elves ... love 'em or hate 'em
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 00:15:12 +0100
In article <01IMJBG2K5CE8Y4Z7P@******.acs.muohio.edu>, "Wendy Wanders,
Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> rambled on endlessly about
immortal elves ... love 'em or hate 'em
>You wrote:
>> They ARE. That's the problem. The IE are the cure for everything, they are
>> more powerful than anything (Your average IE has more magic in his socks,
>> than there is in all of Aztlan.), impossibly intelligent
>> and...well...immortal. They are GODs and that sucks. One of the *really*
>> nice things of SR is that they didn't include any gods. Then came the IE
>> and hell, that nice feature was lost.
>
>So just don't include them in your game-world. It's not as if they are so
>integral to the world that you can't write them out.

Like many things that's not actually the point. I still whine about
them when prompted, because I feel it's one of the aspects of Shadowrun
that FASA need to think about fixing, but as people who know me are
aware, the IE don't exist in my game at all. One of the irritating
aspects of IE is their regular involvement in major plots, major events,
major history links and novels. They can exist happily if they must,
but please there is much about Shadowrun that is more important than
continual implications of IE involvement in every major plot or thread
of the Shadowrun universe or links to flipping EarthDawn.


--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
Message no. 16
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: immortal elves ... love 'em or hate 'em
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 00:10:16 +0100
In article <199708161955.PAA01243@*********.mindspring.com>, MC23
<mc23@**********.COM> rambled on endlessly about immortal elves ... love
'em or hate 'em
<big snip because by now everyone knows my opinions of IE>

> It's all a matter of keeping one's perspective. Why don't we just
>gave up flogging this dead horse and starting caterwauling over why
>almost all runs are against/for Megacorps.

They are??? Damn that's what I've been doing wrong with my Gming style,
it's supposed to be mega's all the way. Oh blast.

>Talk about a limited campaign
>style.

Campaign style is limited only by imagination. The last time my players
ran for/against a megacorp was a module. Most of my games are either
rewrites of modules or straight from my own warped and twisted mind, and
I don't involve the mega's much, I prefer the personal level on things.
<grin>

That's why I don't wine about Megacorps, they are a huge presence in SR,
but not to the runners, they deal with the petty individuals in the
corps, or in the cities. Rivalry between two executives or "people of
power" (rich etc) is likely to be more bitchy and dangerous, and
potentially more lucrative than running a boring old datasteal for Fuchi
or somesuch.



>
>
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
>
> "Say what you mean, and say it mean!"
> -Scraping Foetus off the Wheel, Ramrod
>
> I am MC23

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk
Message no. 17
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: immortal elves ... love 'em or hate 'em
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 03:00:01 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-18 01:17:27 EDT, you write:

> Like many things that's not actually the point. I still whine about
> them when prompted, because I feel it's one of the aspects of Shadowrun
> that FASA need to think about fixing, but as people who know me are
> aware, the IE don't exist in my game at all. One of the irritating
> aspects of IE is their regular involvement in major plots, major events,
> major history links and novels. They can exist happily if they must,
> but please there is much about Shadowrun that is more important than
> continual implications of IE involvement in every major plot or thread
> of the Shadowrun universe or links to flipping EarthDawn.

Yes, I understand where you are coming from also, though there is one thing
that having an IE involved in the game in some fashion, it shows the players
that there are still things out there that have not been learned, and by
showing them a glimps of what is possible, they have then showed them the
inspiration on how to research it and develop it for themselves later on in
the future.

In the games I play and co-GM, the IE are out there, but they rarely interact
with the group, as they have a larger game to play, and many chess pieces the
group is unaware of. Although something I have Harlequinn become good at is
de-pants any referee that pisses him off during any game that he is watching
on the trid ... they also provide some humor and color if presented well ...

Mike
Message no. 18
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: immortal elves ... love 'em or hate 'em
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 03:07:14 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-18 01:26:18 EDT, you write:

> Campaign style is limited only by imagination. The last time my players
> ran for/against a megacorp was a module. Most of my games are either
> rewrites of modules or straight from my own warped and twisted mind, and
> I don't involve the mega's much, I prefer the personal level on things.
> <grin>
>
> That's why I don't wine about Megacorps, they are a huge presence in SR,
> but not to the runners, they deal with the petty individuals in the
> corps, or in the cities. Rivalry between two executives or "people of
> power" (rich etc) is likely to be more bitchy and dangerous, and
> potentially more lucrative than running a boring old datasteal for Fuchi
> or somesuch.

The one thing, is that the run you could be doing is for a mega, albeit for
one of their myriad shell corporations that they have ... "you mean we just
did a run for Ares ... and they own seventeen other companies to get to this
one we just worked for ?"

Enhance Your Paranoia,

Mike

Further Reading

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