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Message no. 1
From: Sean Sheridan <sean@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Immunity
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 1995 19:47:18 -0600
All true form spirits, elementals, allies, watchers, etc. have immunity
to weapons, age, poisons, disease. Thats just what they are.
The only exception is when they have a vulnerability like water, insecticides
and the like. Flesh forms don't have the immunity to norm. weapons becasue
they have physical bodies.
Sean
Message no. 2
From: "Terry L. Amburgey" <xanth@********.uky.edu>
Subject: immunity
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:42:10 -0400
David wrote:
>Um...manifest beings are immune to missile weapons. They
>can only be harmed by hand held melee weapons (using
>Willpower instead of the Combat Skill) and spells. Check
>out the description of the power Manifestation. And, being
>the Evil GM that you are, don't tell the players that
>you're now using the right rule until they attack another
>spirit ;)

Um, not exactly. Reread the section on what 'immunity' actually does. Close
but no cigar :) Terry

Terry L. Amburgey Email: xanth@***.uky.edu
Associate Professor Phone: (606) 257-7726
College of Business and Economics Fax: (606) 257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506-0034
Message no. 3
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: immunity
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 14:06:26 -0600 (MDT)
Terry L. Amburgey wrote:
|
|David wrote:
|>Um...manifest beings are immune to missile weapons. They
|>can only be harmed by hand held melee weapons (using
|>Willpower instead of the Combat Skill) and spells. Check
|>out the description of the power Manifestation. And, being
|>the Evil GM that you are, don't tell the players that
|>you're now using the right rule until they attack another
|>spirit ;)
|
|Um, not exactly. Reread the section on what 'immunity' actually does. Close
|but no cigar :) Terry

Dang! You're right. I'm gonna have to rethink my current
habit of treating manifest beings Immunity to Natural
Weapons as being Hardened. So far it's worked pretty
well.

Keep pointing out my errors. Maybe someday I'll actually
know the rules :)

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
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Message no. 4
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: immunity
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 11:29:59 +0100
David Buehrer said on 14:06/13 Jul 96...

> Dang! You're right. I'm gonna have to rethink my current habit of
> treating manifest beings Immunity to Natural Weapons as being Hardened.
> So far it's worked pretty well.

It actually works pretty simple... Just double their Essence and apply it
as armor against ranged attacks only. Makes spirits very tough, especially
invae. Oh, and wraiths, of course :)

> Keep pointing out my errors. Maybe someday I'll actually know the rules
> :)

And then you can get down to some *serious* rules modifications :)

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Message no. 5
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: immunity
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 12:42:46 -0600 (MDT)
Gurth wrote:
|
|David Buehrer said on 14:06/13 Jul 96...
|
|> Keep pointing out my errors. Maybe someday I'll actually know the rules
|> :)
|
|And then you can get down to some *serious* rules modifications :)

Hey! :)

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
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Message no. 6
From: moe@*******.com (Allen Versfeld)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 13:01:18 +0200
Hi

Last night playing an old module, my players confronted a force 10
insect spirit, with the Immunity to Normal Weapons power. When I
dragged out MitS, I read that Immunity functions gives an armour rating
equal to double the essence.

So this spirit had 20 armour. There was nothing that the team that
could possibly do that would even scratch her. Since I should perhaps
have paid more attention to stats before play, I took mercy, and had her
use Fear to make them run away.

Surely I read that wrong? Or did the Immunity power work differently in
1st edition?
Message no. 7
From: stevenhad@*****.co.uk (Steve)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 11:18:59 +0000 (GMT)
--- Allen Versfeld <moe@*******.com> wrote: > Hi
>
> Last night playing an old module, my players
> confronted a force 10
> insect spirit, with the Immunity to Normal Weapons
> power. When I
> dragged out MitS, I read that Immunity functions
> gives an armour rating
> equal to double the essence.
>
> So this spirit had 20 armour. There was nothing
> that the team that
> could possibly do that would even scratch her.
> Since I should perhaps
> have paid more attention to stats before play, I
> took mercy, and had her
> use Fear to make them run away.
>
> Surely I read that wrong? Or did the Immunity power
> work differently in
> 1st edition?
>

That is how it works in 3rd ed. They are several ways
to ignore the armour though - weapon foci ignore it,
spells, attacking it directly with Will (though I
wouldn't fancy their chances against a F10 Bug with
that!)

A purely astral form punching it would ignore the
armour as well, cause Immunity is a physical power.
Banishing it can work in theory, but is VERY difficult
to do in my experience with high force spirits. (My
ref likes spirits :( )

Basically a team without a mage or a phys ad (sorry -
its adept now isn't it?) is screwed if they meet a
decent spirit.

Steve

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Message no. 8
From: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 22:43:15 +1100
Allen Versfeld writes:

> Surely I read that wrong? Or did the Immunity power work differently in
> 1st edition?

It was a bit different in SR1. Armour granted automatic Body successes (in
effect), but didn't change the Power of the attack.

Also, just because something has an Armour of 20, doesn't make it immune to
anything. A certain Troll Merc in a game I used to run could easily roll 18
or more successes with a burst from an MMG. That starts at D. Unless the
spirit in question had a Body of 20 or more, then even though she might only
need 2's to resist, she'll probably still be taking a Deadly wound.

--
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Message no. 9
From: me@******.net (Hexren)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 14:55:21 +0100
well I think to remember something like "If unmodified weapon power is
equal or less to Armor reating the weapon does no damage" so you are
fucked if you are up against a F10 Bug if you have no mage or phy. ad.
Message no. 10
From: rodrigo_berenguer@*****.ca (Pete)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:28:53 -0500 (EST)
> you are fucked if you are up against a F10 Bug if
> you have no mage or phy. ad.

Not necessarily. A rigger who managed to get a hold
of a Victory cannon (20D before FA) can take a spirit
like that out relatively quickly. A tricked out troll
street samurai can have the same result with a good
combat axe or bow.

Still, aside from a few exceptions, isn't this exactly
the kind of thing you bring a mage and/or adept for? I
mean, you don't expect a mage to pull off a matrix
data steal, so why would you expect a samurai to take
out a tough-ass spirit?

Who runs without a mage anyway?

(or without a decker, or rigger for that matter)

====Pete
player, GM, and general SR addict.

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Message no. 11
From: support@*******.com (Darius van wijk)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 16:48:07 +0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete" <rodrigo_berenguer@*****.ca>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Immunity


> you are fucked if you are up against a F10 Bug if
> you have no mage or phy. ad.

>Not necessarily. A rigger who managed to get a hold
>of a Victory cannon (20D before FA) can take a spirit
>like that out relatively quickly. A tricked out troll
>street samurai can have the same result with a good
>combat axe or bow.
>
>Still, aside from a few exceptions, isn't this exactly
>the kind of thing you bring a mage and/or adept for? I
>mean, you don't expect a mage to pull off a matrix
>data steal, so why would you expect a samurai to take
>out a tough-ass spirit?
>
>Who runs without a mage anyway?
>
>(or without a decker, or rigger for that matter)


Hello Was the Question not HAVE THE RULES FOR SPIRITS CHSNGED SINCE 1ST
ED?????

or are you all ignoring the question.

Obviously his module or campaign comes from First edd but he has 3er Ed
rules for spirits.

Is a 1st ed force 10 spirit the same as a force 10 3rd ed spirit.

Are the rules the same.


Answer the damm question ppl.
Message no. 12
From: rodrigo_berenguer@*****.ca (Pete)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:56:04 -0500 (EST)
> Answer the damm question ppl.

Nothing is really the same in 3rd edition than in 1st
(thankfully). But that doesn't change the fact that
you shouldn't go up against a spirit *without* magic,
regardless of the editon you are using. And, part of
his question was whether or not you could defeat a
spirit like that without magic (which is hard, but
possible).

If you are asking what is magic like in 3rd ed, RTFM.
If you want to know what 1st ed was like, go on Ebay.
If, as this guy did, you make a mistake and throw an
opponent against your party that they can't handle,
then just wing it and make the shit up.

AFAIK, non-mages used to be able to take on a spirit
in hand-to-hand with willpower. Is that still true? Or
did that die with the older editions? Or am I making
that up?

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Message no. 13
From: jhogan@**********.nf.net (Jonathan Hogan)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:14:57 -0330
> Answer the damm question ppl.

Yes the rules changed. Welcome to the present.
Message no. 14
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:36:49 +0100
According to Darius van wijk, on Thursday 13 March 2003 15:48 the word on
the street was...

> Is a 1st ed force 10 spirit the same as a force 10 3rd ed spirit.

Yes.

> Are the rules the same.

No.

This may seem contradictory, but the _spirits_ are for most intents and
purposes the same; there are rules differences, though. First of all, IIRC
in SR1 spirits did not get armor, which made them easier to kill. In SR2
the armor was added, both for manifested spirits and the extra armor given
to insect spirits.

Also, Willpower got increased to Force rather than a flat 1 or 2 for many
types of insect spirits (as it made them far too easy to kill with
mana-based combat spells, even though they did get their Essence in spell
defense dice).

--
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Message no. 15
From: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:13:50 +1100
Hexren writes:

> well I think to remember something like "If unmodified weapon power is
> equal or less to Armor reating the weapon does no damage" so you are
> fucked if you are up against a F10 Bug if you have no mage or phy. ad.

I think you'll find that's for "Hardened Armour". Some spirits migth have it
(I think Beetle spirits?), but most don't.

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Message no. 16
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:20:33 +0100
At 09:13 14/03/2003 +1100, Damion Milliken wrote:

>Hexren writes:
>
> > well I think to remember something like "If unmodified weapon power is
> > equal or less to Armor reating the weapon does no damage" so you are
> > fucked if you are up against a F10 Bug if you have no mage or phy. ad.
>
>I think you'll find that's for "Hardened Armour". Some spirits migth have it
>(I think Beetle spirits?), but most don't.

SR3, pg. ~260. The Immunity power renders the attack completely
ineffective if its (augmented) power isn't greater than twice the spirit's
Essence.

--
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Message no. 17
From: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:24:12 +1100
Darius van wijk writes:

> Hello Was the Question not HAVE THE RULES FOR SPIRITS CHSNGED SINCE 1ST
> ED?????
>
> or are you all ignoring the question.

Er, I answered this in my first post. Didn't you read it?

In 1st Ed, armour essentially have automatic Body successes to resist
damage. So a bug queen with Immunity to Normal Weapons received, and I quote
from PANA: "automatic successes equal to twice its Essence Rating when
resisting attacks from ordinary weapons".

Also realise, though, than in 1st Ed, weapon damage codes were different.
Eg, a 9M Heavy Pistol did 4M2, an 8M Assault Rifle did 5M3, an 18D Assault
Cannon did 10D4, and a 16D AVM did 12D8. The first number is the Power,
which is the TN for the Body test. The last number is the "staging", which
is how many successes are required to increase or decrease the Damage Level
by 1. Since armour provided automatic successes, the Power never changed
(and anything above 6 was very nasty indeed). So a Force 10 bug queen with
20 automatic successes due to her Power was immune to any weapon that had a
staging of 5 or less. Thus, she was completely immune to an Assault Cannon.
An AVM, OTOH, was going to give her a Moderate wound, pretty much no matter
what. The odds of her rolling the necessary 4 10's on her Body test were
pretty small.

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Message no. 18
From: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:25:35 +1100
Pete writes:

> AFAIK, non-mages used to be able to take on a spirit
> in hand-to-hand with willpower. Is that still true? Or
> did that die with the older editions? Or am I making
> that up?

I think that it's still possible. But you're often better off using your
(superior) weapon skill and damage in many situations, I find.

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Message no. 19
From: DamionMilliken@*****.com.au (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:27:02 +1100
Max Noel writes:

> SR3, pg. ~260. The Immunity power renders the attack completely
> ineffective if its (augmented) power isn't greater than twice the spirit's
> Essence.

Hmm. It's better than I recalled :-).

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Message no. 20
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:30:56 +0100
At 09:27 14/03/2003 +1100, Damion Milliken wrote:

>Max Noel writes:
>
> > SR3, pg. ~260. The Immunity power renders the attack completely
> > ineffective if its (augmented) power isn't greater than twice the spirit's
> > Essence.
>
>Hmm. It's better than I recalled :-).

Yeah, depending on the critter's Force it can be pretty awful. If
you don't have a magically active character, your only chance is a
full-auto weapon with enough recoil comp... (aha? Cross-thread? ;p)

--
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Message no. 21
From: jzealey@***.edu.au (James Zealey)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:38:48 +1100
> --- Allen Versfeld <moe@*******.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
>>Last night playing an old module, my players
>>confronted a force 10
>>insect spirit, with the Immunity to Normal Weapons
>>power. When I
>>dragged out MitS, I read that Immunity functions
>>gives an armour rating
>>equal to double the essence.
>>
>>So this spirit had 20 armour. There was nothing
>>that the team that
>>could possibly do that would even scratch her.
>>Since I should perhaps
>>have paid more attention to stats before play, I
>>took mercy, and had her
>>use Fear to make them run away.
>>
>>Surely I read that wrong? Or did the Immunity power
>>work differently in
>>1st edition?
>>
>

First up: despite what people may think, immunity to normal weapons is
NOT hardened armour. They use different rules.

What does this mean? It means that a bug spirits' immunity is penetrated
by the MODIFIED power of a round. So firing long bursts, using explosive
ammo and other tactics for increasing the power of a shot will be
relatively effective (as soon as you can get the power just slightly
above the immunity, you can stack on successes, although beating 20 will
be very difficult...).

Next up: Manifested spirits can be fought via a force of will.

How's it work? The character can choose to use his willpower instead of
his combat skill to fight the spirit. He can't use his combat pool. His
damage is (charisma)L, and it ignores immunity to normal weapons.

Next up: Immunity to normal weapons does not apply to 'elemental'
attacks or magic.

What does this mean? If your players have flamethrowers, water cannons,
incendiary grenades or (depending on how you as a GM rule) stone-tipped
spears, concussion grenades or tazers, the immunity will not apply.
Those last three are based on the premise that earth and air are
elements, and electricity is one of the possible 'elemental effects' of
a spell. The section of the rules only actually lists flamethrowers and
water cannons, so the existence of earth, air and wood weapons is
more-or-less up to you, and the possibility of weapons which have
elemental manipulation effects even more so. Also, blasting them with
spells is always a really good idea.

Finally: While most of your players can't damage the spirit with ease,
they CAN do their best to work as a team to king-hit it. A fantastic
tactic is to have most of the team fight the spirit to subdue it, after
which the strongest member of the team smacks it hard with the biggest
melee weapon available and all of their combat pool. Remember - extra
successes on melee increase the power of the attack. Holding the
opponent prone, and giving large 'friends in melee' bonuses will drop
the TN to two, and probably force the spirit's TN through the roof.
Admittedly, unless you've got a real big weapon and a serious melee
specialist with a huge strength, this isn't going to do much.

Another part of this 'subdual' tactic is that you can possibly force the
spirit to pass through a ward. With a high-force ward, you can do some
serious damage in this way.
Message no. 22
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 15:25:25 +0200
Damion Milliken wrote:
> Hexren writes:
>
> > well I think to remember something like "If unmodified
> weapon power is
> > equal or less to Armor reating the weapon does no damage"
> so you are
> > fucked if you are up against a F10 Bug if you have no mage
> or phy. ad.
>
> I think you'll find that's for "Hardened Armour". Some
> spirits migth have it (I think Beetle spirits?), but most don't.

Nope. Quote: "If the Power of the damage does not exceed twice the
creature's Essence, it automatically has no effect". SR3, pg. 264, Immunity.


Slayer

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- Unknown Dragon


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Message no. 23
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:51:45 +0000
At 11:01 AM 13/3/2003, Allen wrote:
>Last night playing an old module, my players confronted a force 10 insect
>spirit, with the Immunity to Normal Weapons power. When I dragged out
>MitS, I read that Immunity functions gives an armour rating equal to
>double the essence.
>
>So this spirit had 20 armour. There was nothing that the team that could
>possibly do that would even scratch her. Since I should perhaps have paid
>more attention to stats before play, I took mercy, and had her use Fear to
>make them run away.
>
>Surely I read that wrong? Or did the Immunity power work differently in
>1st edition?

IIRC you read it right, although I'm not sure about 1st Ed.

Your PCs could still have hurt the thing though, IIRC the "force of will"
type attack bypasses that armour (have to check that, haven't used it in a
while).

Plus remember that elemental based attacks (including tasers) are against
an armour equal to the spirit's essence (isn't a stun baton something like
power 12 (haven't checked them for a while either, can you tell? :D )) and
that magical attacks (spells, weapon foci and IIRC Astral combat) bypass it
completely.


--
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Message no. 24
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 13:00:29 +0000
At 11:43 AM 13/3/2003, Damion wrote:
>It was a bit different in SR1. Armour granted automatic Body successes (in
>effect), but didn't change the Power of the attack.
>
>Also, just because something has an Armour of 20, doesn't make it immune to
>anything. A certain Troll Merc in a game I used to run could easily roll 18
>or more successes with a burst from an MMG. That starts at D. Unless the
>spirit in question had a Body of 20 or more, then even though she might only
>need 2's to resist, she'll probably still be taking a Deadly wound.

Except that the immunity power's armour is Hardened, meaning that the
individual rounds have to have a power greater the armour value, in this
case you're talking about a single shot at Power 21+


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Message no. 25
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:33:43 +0000
At 02:28 PM 13/3/2003, Pete wrote:
>Not necessarily. A rigger who managed to get a hold
>of a Victory cannon (20D before FA) can take a spirit
>like that out relatively quickly. A tricked out troll
>street samurai can have the same result with a good
>combat axe or bow.

Troll possibly but the rigger's shots are going to bounce off like anything
else.


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 26
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:37:34 +0000
At 02:56 PM 13/3/2003, Pete wrote:
>AFAIK, non-mages used to be able to take on a spirit
>in hand-to-hand with willpower. Is that still true? Or
>did that die with the older editions? Or am I making
>that up?

Still exists. The only way apparently that that lot could have done.


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 27
From: silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 12:39:48 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
[mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Lone Eagle
Sent: 2003-March-14 07:52
To: Shadowrun Discussion
Subject: Re: Immunity

At 11:01 AM 13/3/2003, Allen wrote:
>Last night playing an old module, my players confronted a force 10
insect
>spirit, with the Immunity to Normal Weapons power. When I dragged out
>MitS, I read that Immunity functions gives an armour rating equal to
>double the essence.
>
>So this spirit had 20 armour. There was nothing that the team that
could
>possibly do that would even scratch her. Since I should perhaps have
paid
>more attention to stats before play, I took mercy, and had her use Fear
to
>make them run away.
>
>Surely I read that wrong? Or did the Immunity power work differently
in
>1st edition?

IIRC you read it right, although I'm not sure about 1st Ed.

Your PCs could still have hurt the thing though, IIRC the "force of
will"
type attack bypasses that armour (have to check that, haven't used it in
a
while).

Plus remember that elemental based attacks (including tasers) are
against
an armour equal to the spirit's essence (isn't a stun baton something
like
power 12 (haven't checked them for a while either, can you tell? :D ))
and
that magical attacks (spells, weapon foci and IIRC Astral combat) bypass
it
completely.


--

Or, for the more technically advanced - lasers would arguably do
elemental damage (which is about the only two things they get used for
in my game - taking out high-immunity-to-normal-weapon critters and
vampires. Otherwise, my players leave them at home (on the grounds that
they're not *that* much better than an equivalent-sized weapon, and have
no autofire or burst fire option. Preferred weapon in campaign is an SMG
for the flexibility.

"I suppose this is what I get for letting rednecks play with
anti-matter; they just don't know when to say 'Okay, that's 'nough!'
Instead, it's always 'Hey' y'all! Watch this!'"
When the Devil Dances, John Ringo

Ian Argent
silvercat@***********.org
Message no. 28
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 17:53:30 +0000
At 10:13 PM 13/3/2003, Damion wrote:
>I think you'll find that's for "Hardened Armour". Some spirits migth have it
>(I think Beetle spirits?), but most don't.

Quoted directly from "Critters"

"The immunity power gives the critter the equivalent of an Armour Rating
equal to twice its Essence for resisting damage from the thing against
which it has immunity. In addition, if the Power of the damage does not
exceed twice the creature's Essence, it automatically has no effect."

I read that as identical to Hardened armour but effecting different things
(eg, immunity to normal weapons doesn't protect against weapon foci,
Hardened Armour does).


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 29
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 18:58:36 +0100
At 17:53 14/03/2003 +0000, Lone Eagle wrote:


>Quoted directly from "Critters"
>
>"The immunity power gives the critter the equivalent of an Armour Rating
>equal to twice its Essence for resisting damage from the thing against
>which it has immunity. In addition, if the Power of the damage does not
>exceed twice the creature's Essence, it automatically has no effect."
>
>I read that as identical to Hardened armour but effecting different things
>(eg, immunity to normal weapons doesn't protect against weapon foci,
>Hardened Armour does).

There's another (big) difference. To determine if an attack has an
effect, you use its base power against hardened armor. Against Immunity
it's the augmented power. Which means a HVAR with enough recoil
compensation is going to hurt. Lots.

--
Wild_Cat

___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @*****.fr gratuite et en français !
Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 30
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 18:01:33 +0000
At 10:38 PM 13/3/2003, James wrote:
>Next up: Immunity to normal weapons does not apply to 'elemental' attacks
>or magic.
>
>What does this mean? If your players have flamethrowers, water cannons,
>incendiary grenades or (depending on how you as a GM rule) stone-tipped
>spears, concussion grenades or tazers, the immunity will not apply. Those
>last three are based on the premise that earth and air are elements, and
>electricity is one of the possible 'elemental effects' of a spell. The
>section of the rules only actually lists flamethrowers and water cannons,
>so the existence of earth, air and wood weapons is more-or-less up to you,
>and the possibility of weapons which have elemental manipulation effects
>even more so. Also, blasting them with spells is always a really good idea.

Elemental based effects such as Flamethrowers, Tasers etc ARE effected by
the Immunity from Normal Weapons power, However the value of the armour is
halved (equal to the critter's essence rather than double.)


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 31
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 18:33:57 +0000
At 05:58 PM 14/3/2003, you wrote:
>At 17:53 14/03/2003 +0000, Lone Eagle wrote:
>>Quoted directly from "Critters"
>>
>>"The immunity power gives the critter the equivalent of an Armour Rating
>>equal to twice its Essence for resisting damage from the thing against
>>which it has immunity. In addition, if the Power of the damage does not
>>exceed twice the creature's Essence, it automatically has no effect."
>>
>>I read that as identical to Hardened armour but effecting different
>>things (eg, immunity to normal weapons doesn't protect against weapon
>>foci, Hardened Armour does).
>
> There's another (big) difference. To determine if an attack has
> an effect, you use its base power against hardened armor. Against
> Immunity it's the augmented power. Which means a HVAR with enough recoil
> compensation is going to hurt. Lots.

It doesn't state that, I read it the other way.

Critters supercedes the Spirits and Dragons chapter in SR3 AFAIK as it was
written later.


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 32
From: me@******.net (Hexren)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 20:06:19 +0100
MN> At 17:53 14/03/2003 +0000, Lone Eagle wrote:


>>Quoted directly from "Critters"
>>
>>"The immunity power gives the critter the equivalent of an Armour Rating
>>equal to twice its Essence for resisting damage from the thing against
>>which it has immunity. In addition, if the Power of the damage does not
>>exceed twice the creature's Essence, it automatically has no effect."
>>
>>I read that as identical to Hardened armour but effecting different things
>>(eg, immunity to normal weapons doesn't protect against weapon foci,
>>Hardened Armour does).

MN> There's another (big) difference. To determine if an attack has an
MN> effect, you use its base power against hardened armor. Against Immunity
MN> it's the augmented power. Which means a HVAR with enough recoil
MN> compensation is going to hurt. Lots.


---------------------------------------------

We use Immunity to normal weapons as more powerfull than hardened
armor because I see no gound on that APDS Ammo should do anything
against a Spirits "Mystic Armor" Critters like dragons could be
another thing cause they obviously get their armor from their scales
against which APDS would help -- IMHO -- so it should be decidied on a one by one case.
Message no. 33
From: jzealey@***.edu.au (James Zealey)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 09:14:04 +1100
> Lone Eagle <loneeagle@********.co.uk>
> Elemental based effects such as Flamethrowers, Tasers etc ARE effected
> by the Immunity from Normal Weapons power, However the value of the
> armour is halved (equal to the critter's essence rather than double.)
>


Oops, you're right. That's what I get for not carting all my books to
work :) Well, still a far, far better solution to the problem than a
regular gun (go with incendiary rounds!)
Message no. 34
From: jzealey@***.edu.au (James Zealey)
Subject: Immunity
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 09:17:04 +1100
>>
>> There's another (big) difference. To determine if an attack
>> has an effect, you use its base power against hardened armor. Against
>> Immunity it's the augmented power. Which means a HVAR with enough
>> recoil compensation is going to hurt. Lots.
>
>
> It doesn't state that, I read it the other way.
>
> Critters supercedes the Spirits and Dragons chapter in SR3 AFAIK as it
> was written later.

In any other situation where the game is referring to the unmodified
power, it clearly states so. Why would this be an exception to that?

Further Reading

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