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Message no. 1
From: Seraph seraph4plm@*********.net
Subject: Immunization and tear-gas
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 21:51:49 -0700
Anyone have any thoughts on whether tear-gas would affect someone with full
Immunization? Is it a compound that someone could be immunized against?

____________________________________________________________________________
________
"Give up the memory of the mind's angel wings lost. Be happy inside the
prison walls of my own skull. Forget the beautiful Unity, the synergy, the
exultant bridging from world to world, the never-afraid warmth of companion
souls..." --The Many-Colored Land by Julian May
Message no. 2
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Immunization and tear-gas
Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 00:58:46 -0400
Seraph wrote:

> Anyone have any thoughts on whether tear-gas would affect someone with full
> Immunization? Is it a compound that someone could be immunized against?
>
> ________________________________________________________________

As far as I know, the Marines are immunized to tear gas through a process of
exposure until they aren't affected by it.
--
--Strago

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2++ !SR3 h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN++ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+) gm+ M-
Message no. 3
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Immunization and tear-gas
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 15:00:41 +1000
Seraph writes:
> Anyone have any thoughts on whether tear-gas would affect someone
> with full
> Immunization? Is it a compound that someone could be immunized against?

As I understand it, tear-gas is actually a mild acidic substance that burns
your eyes. As such, if you have the power of Immunity to Acid, you should be
immune to tear-gas.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 4
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Immunization and tear-gas
Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 09:58:36 +0200
Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> Seraph writes:
> > Anyone have any thoughts on whether tear-gas would affect someone
> > with full
> > Immunization? Is it a compound that someone could be immunized against?
>
> As I understand it, tear-gas is actually a mild acidic substance that burns
> your eyes. As such, if you have the power of Immunity to Acid, you should be
> immune to tear-gas.
>
> --
> .sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com

Last time I got hit by the stuff, I had quite a mild dose, and it never
touched my eyes at all. On the other hand, it was about 15 minutes
before I could breathe properly (ever had an asthma attack and a
coughing fit at the same time?)
--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com
Wandata
Message no. 5
From: Logan Graves logan1@*****.intercom.net
Subject: Immunization and tear-gas
Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 07:01:07 -0400
In our last episode, Seraph wrote:
>
> Anyone have any thoughts on whether tear-gas would affect someone with full
> Immunization? Is it a compound that someone could be immunized against?

And just to muddy the waters a bit, here's a factoid:

Today's military (well the US' at least) uses CS Tear Gas, which isn't a gas
at all--but a solid precipitate of "O-Chlorobenzyl-Malononitrile." Physically,
it's like very tiny salt crystals, which are light enough to be carried by the
wind & small enough to get into one's lungs, mucous membranes, & tear ducts.

Being a solid, it settles of clothing like grains of dirt, for later
irritation. That's why soldiers are trained to run & do the funky chicken to
rid themselves of the stuff.

Breath easier ;-)

--Fenris
______________________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) Well, how was _I_ supposed to know they'd
be so touchy about their acronym?!
(>) The Smiling Bandit, during the firefight
with the Aztechnology Secret Service agents
Message no. 6
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Immunization and tear-gas
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 12:52:03 -0500
:> > Anyone have any thoughts on whether tear-gas would affect someone
:> > with full
:> > Immunization? Is it a compound that someone could be immunized against?

Maybe. As far as I know, CS teargass is the same substance relesed when
you cut an onion open. Then again, full spectrum "immunization"
specifically protects against "standard-level toxin and pathogen" exposure-
so you might not cry when cutting onions, but the discharge from a gas
grenade is a BIT more intense.
Also, the procedure is based on monoclonal anti-body therapy, which I
studied a bit in Bio 101. That means it enhances the bodies immune response
by programming the anti-body system to identify and respond to the substance
or pathogen, but can't do much about attacks that there is no possible
immune response to. For example, cynade works on a very simple chemical
level. Immunization would not work.
I think tear gas may actually allow some immune response (if you can be
allergic to it, you can have an immune response- in fact, an allergy is an
exagerated immune response). Of course, that makes it obvious why theres no
luck in treating metahuman allergies; you are just enhancing an already
hyper-active immune response, but raises the question of why immunization
doesn't provoke allergic response.

Mongoose
Message no. 7
From: Aerio Chrome aeriochrome@****.com
Subject: Immunization and tear-gas
Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 02:39:08 -0500
On Tue, 4 May 1999 12:52:03 -0500 "Mongoose" <m0ng005e@*********.com>
writes:
> Maybe. As far as I know, CS teargass is the same substance
>relesed when you cut an onion open. Then again, full spectrum
"immunization"
>specifically protects against "standard-level toxin and pathogen"
>exposure-so you might not cry when cutting onions, but the discharge
from a
>gas grenade is a BIT more intense.
> Also, the procedure is based on monoclonal anti-body therapy,
>which I studied a bit in Bio 101. That means it enhances the bodies
immune
>response by programming the anti-body system to identify and respond to
the
>substance or pathogen, but can't do much about attacks that there is no
>possible immune response to. For example, cynade works on a very simple

>chemical level. Immunization would not work.
<snip>
>Mongoose

Okay, I don't know about the real world biology involved. From what I
read of the immunization it renders a person "...immune to the effects of
the particular disease or compound for which he was treated (Shadowtech
p. 75)." Being a compound, tear gas falls under the substances
Immunization protects against. So in game terms the character would be
immune. However, it also says immune to standard exposure and
concentrated doeses could overwhelm the system and damage the person. So
exactly how one defines standard exposure vs. concentrated doeses becomes
an issue of home rules. A too loose definition makes this immensly
powerful, a character with full spectral immunity can unleash chemical
warefare with impunity incapacitating or killing all opposition. A
definition which is too stringent makes immunity worthless. Since the
neurostun grenade landed at your character's feet, he is subjected to a
concentrated dose and so his immunity doesn't help him.
So with the home rules we've developed we've said that full spectral
immunity protects against all KNOWN toxins, which means everything
detailed in Shadowrun products, and everything detailed in military or
chemical literature which would fall under the toxin definition. However,
toxins which are being researched do not fall under the "known"
definition and will affect a character with immunity. As well, we've
taken care of the exposure to above standard doses problem by making a
character with immunity completely unaffected by a toxin for the first
combat turn he's exposed to it. On the next turn, the character makes a
resistance test against one half the power of the toxin. The turn after
that the test is against a T# of 3/4 the toxin's power, and on the fourth
turn of exposure the immunity is overwhelmed. Character's do not suffer
any of the adverse effects (the T# modifier imposed by neurostun for
example in addition to the wound modifier) unless they take damage from
the compound. So a character (with Immunization obviously) holed up in a
house surrounded by Lone Star will not take any damage from neurostun
lobbed into the house on the first turn. On the second, the resistance
test will be 3S. On the third turn the character will take a 4S hit from
the gas, and on the fourth turn the gas will be at full effect.
We've also encountered the problem, what if a character gets immunized
from some toxins, then gets full spectral immunity? Is their immunity
doubled? We treat it like the case above except there is another step,
and the wound level is one less until the attack is at full power. Using
the neurostun example above, a character with double immunity would take
no damage the first turn, a 2M hit the second turn (1/4 power), a 3M hit
the third turn (1/2 power), a 4M hit the fourth turn (3/4 power), and
full damage, 6S, on the fifth turn.

Aerochrome

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