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Message no. 1
From: David Mezerette <mezeretted@*****.U-NANCY.FR>
Subject: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:41:42 +0100
ok, i have a question:
one can't cumulate the 'improve reflexes' (or how it is called in english i
haven't my rpg books at hand) spell w/ an un-natural way to boost reflexes
(wired reflexes, boosted reflexes, MBW, synaptic accelerator), but what if
this reflex improvement can be considered 'natural', such as for
shapeshifters in animal form or 'shapeshifted' magicians?
i hope it will give u as many nasty thoughts as it gives me *grin*

ChYlD
mezeretted@*****.u-nancy.fr
Message no. 2
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:29:55 -0700
David Mezerette wrote:

> ok, i have a question:
> one can't cumulate the 'improve reflexes' (or how it is called in > english i
haven't my rpg books at hand) spell w/ an un-natural way to > boost reflexes (wired
reflexes, boosted reflexes, MBW, synaptic > accelerator), but what if this reflex
improvement can be considered > 'natural', such as for shapeshifters in animal form or
'shapeshifted' > magicians? i hope it will give u as many nasty thoughts as it gives
me > *grin*

Quick - someone post the ShadowFAQ!

By Tom Dowd, you can't stack multiple reflex increases from different
sources unless it's mentioned in their descriptions. So, for example,
you wouldn't be able to stack Boosted Reflexes with Synaptic Acclerators
(or the Shapeshifter bonus); you'd simply take the highest modifier and
ignore the others. I'm pretty sure he meant Reaction enhancers to be
exempt from this. I'm more certain that he meant any "boosted" reaction
to fall under this category - shapeshifter bonuses, physad powers,
spells, cyber/bioware, all.

OTOH, Move-By-Wire is compatible with Synaptic Accelerators, so their
benefits do stack, so long as they're implanted together. (And it only
apply to SynAcc-1, as well. Game balance, man!)


-Mb
Message no. 3
From: Geoffrey Giesemann <geoffwa@***********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:20:13 +1000
>ok, i have a question:
>one can't cumulate the 'improve reflexes' (or how it is called in english i
>haven't my rpg books at hand) spell w/ an un-natural way to boost reflexes
>(wired reflexes, boosted reflexes, MBW, synaptic accelerator), but what if
>this reflex improvement can be considered 'natural', such as for
>shapeshifters in animal form or 'shapeshifted' magicians?
>i hope it will give u as many nasty thoughts as it gives me *grin*
>
I think, as long as essence is paid for implants then it becomes 'part' of
the body as far as spellcasting goes. Lower essence means higher target
numbers for some spells, and the target number for reflex increasing spells
is twice reaction.

Geoff

------------
'What happens if you're on a train at the speed of light and run forward?'
geoffwa@***********.com.au
----------
Message no. 4
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:20:39 -0400
> From: David Mezerette <mezeretted@*****.U-NANCY.FR>
> Date: Monday, October 20, 1997 5:41 AM

> ok, i have a question:
> one can't cumulate the 'improve reflexes' (or how it is called in english
i
> haven't my rpg books at hand) spell w/ an un-natural way to boost
reflexes
> (wired reflexes, boosted reflexes, MBW, synaptic accelerator), but what
if
> this reflex improvement can be considered 'natural', such as for
> shapeshifters in animal form or 'shapeshifted' magicians?
> i hope it will give u as many nasty thoughts as it gives me *grin*

Okay, I want you to think about what you said above for a moment. Don't
take this personally, but there are a couple of obvious reasons why you
CANNOT get enhanced reflexes due to cyber/bioware. First, let's say a
shapeshifter in wolf form gets wired reflexes. Even if you were allowed to
stack them with the shifter's already enhanced reflexes, do you think the
shifter would remain in animal form for the rest of his existence? If he
switched to human form, don't you think the wired reflexes wouldn't be
shaped correctly anymore? Can you say OUCH!??
Second, one word: Regeneration. Shifters heal so fast, that the implant
would never stay. It would be treated like any other foreign materials and
expelled within seconds.

Trust me, there is no canon way to allow shifters to have any sort of
cyber/bioware. And, as far as I know, even if they are magicians or
physical adepts (which is legal), they can't increase their reflexes with
magic because that goes against the rules of stacking increased reflexes
(because shifters are considered magical, thus their increased reflexes
aren't natural).

> ChYlD
> mezeretted@*****.u-nancy.fr

Justin :)
Message no. 5
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:27:48 -0400
> From: Geoffrey Giesemann <geoffwa@***********.com.au>
> Date: Monday, October 20, 1997 7:20 AM

> >ok, i have a question:
> >one can't cumulate the 'improve reflexes' (or how it is called in
english i
> >haven't my rpg books at hand) spell w/ an un-natural way to boost
reflexes
> >(wired reflexes, boosted reflexes, MBW, synaptic accelerator), but what
if
> >this reflex improvement can be considered 'natural', such as for
> >shapeshifters in animal form or 'shapeshifted' magicians?
> >i hope it will give u as many nasty thoughts as it gives me *grin*

> I think, as long as essence is paid for implants then it becomes 'part'
of
> the body as far as spellcasting goes. Lower essence means higher target
> numbers for some spells, and the target number for reflex increasing
spells
> is twice reaction.

That only applies if your body accepts the implants, however. Regeneration
keeps shifters from accepting any cyber/bioware enhancements (the stuff
just comes right back out in seconds). This is in the SR Companion with
the Shapeshifter rules.

> Geoff

Justin :)
Message no. 6
From: Les Ward <lward@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:38:19 -0400
Mb wrote:
>David Mezerette wrote:
>> [Can you stack reaction increases to natural improved reflexes.

>Quick - someone post the ShadowFAQ!

http://pobox.com/~wordman/ShadowFAQ.html

>By Tom Dowd, you can't stack multiple reflex increases from different
>sources unless it's mentioned in their descriptions... take the highest
> modifier and ignore the others.

Correct, though this is an "out of book" rule. As Mb mentions, this applies
to phys ads as well as shapeshiters, critters, et al.

From personal experience, no matter how cool you think stuff like stacking
reflex mods is, sooner or later it will always bite you in the ass.

Wordman
Message no. 7
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:17:07 -0500
On Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:27:48 -0400 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
writes:

<<That only applies if your body accepts the implants, however.
Regeneration keeps shifters from accepting any cyber/bioware enhancements
(the stuff just comes right back out in seconds). This is in the SR
Companion with the Shapeshifter rules.>>

No, it isn't. As written in the SR Companion, shapers only reject
implanted cyberware, and only in animal form. It is not stated that
bioware implants (of any type) are categorically rejected; any such
ruling is a house rule. At the very least, however, it is rational to
require that any bioware implanted into a shaper be cultured (otherwise,
it may not shift form accordingly during a shapeshift. Could be
especially nasty for Synthacardium implants<EGMG>:) All neural bioware is
automatically cultured.

I hope that didn't come across as a flame ...


--
John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --South Park
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 8
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:11:15 -0400
> From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
> Date: Monday, October 20, 1997 10:17 PM

> On Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:27:48 -0400 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
> writes:

> <<That only applies if your body accepts the implants, however.
> Regeneration keeps shifters from accepting any cyber/bioware enhancements
> (the stuff just comes right back out in seconds). This is in the SR
> Companion with the Shapeshifter rules.>>

> No, it isn't. As written in the SR Companion, shapers only reject
> implanted cyberware, and only in animal form. It is not stated that

Okay, well, let's be expand upon logic for a moment. Say you're a shifter
in human form and get Wired 3 implanted. (Since, I suppose, it is
TECHNICALLY possible.) You're really fast in human form now. How neat.
So, are you NEVER going to shift into your animal form again? I sure hope
not, unless you want to find out what it's like to have all that machinery
torn out from the inside. Also, what would ever motivate you to get
cyberwear anyway? Your superior atts/abilities/vision, etc. can be
attained in mere moments by switching forms without the need for any of
that artificial machinery. You are naturally gifted, after all. Not to
mention that you lose some of your abilities (at least in part) by doing
so. (Regeneration is based on essence.) IMO, it would be very difficult
for a shifter to justify having any desire for cyberwear at all. And by
having cyberwear implanted, they are forever giving up on changing into
their animal form, unless they want to risk a painful death.

> bioware implants (of any type) are categorically rejected; any such
> ruling is a house rule. At the very least, however, it is rational to
> require that any bioware implanted into a shaper be cultured (otherwise,
> it may not shift form accordingly during a shapeshift. Could be
> especially nasty for Synthacardium implants<EGMG>:) All neural bioware is
> automatically cultured.

Perhaps bioware is open for debate according to the rules. However, it
seems logical to rule that initiative enhancements of any type are NOT
cumulative with those gained by being a shifter. I would probably either
rule out bioware entirely, or require it to be cultured in order to allow a
shifter to have it implanted and function without "difficulties". ;)

> I hope that didn't come across as a flame ...

Not at all. :)

> --
> John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"

Justin "No! Don't kick the baby!"
Message no. 9
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:12:53 +1000
Justin wrote:
> Trust me, there is no canon way to allow shifters to have any sort of
> cyber/bioware. And, as far as I know, even if they are magicians or
> physical adepts (which is legal), they can't increase their reflexes with
> magic because that goes against the rules of stacking increased reflexes
> (because shifters are considered magical, thus their increased reflexes
> aren't natural).

This gave me a thought. Why not just say that the boost that the increase
initiative spells give you is fixed, not relative. Get rid of the +3d6
initiative dice spell, and rename it 4d6 initiative. That way, it does not
matter what the original reflexes are, they are completely ignored by the
spell and it just uses it's own fixed increase.

You could even say the same with Wired Reflexes. Just because a shaper (or
any other naturally boosted creature) has better reflexes than a human,
doesn't mean that wired reflexes improves there natural ability. It gives
them a new reflex rating that may or may not be better than there natural.
The 'wires' or whatever they are that carry nerve signals in Wired Reflexes
don't work faster in some people than they do in others. It is a fixed
rating depending on the grade of the wires.

Mayhaps if this clarification was included in SR3, there would be a lot less
confusion over it all. (It would also make me happier than you could
believe).

NightRain.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:43:28 +0100
David Mezerette said on 10:41/20 Oct 97...

> one can't cumulate the 'improve reflexes' (or how it is called in english i
> haven't my rpg books at hand) spell w/ an un-natural way to boost reflexes
> (wired reflexes, boosted reflexes, MBW, synaptic accelerator), but what if
> this reflex improvement can be considered 'natural', such as for
> shapeshifters in animal form or 'shapeshifted' magicians?

There has been a ruling by Tom Dowd that only the highest initiative boost
applies -- so stacking, say, wired reflexes 2 with an Increase Reflexes
+3D6 spell only gives you +3D6, not +5D6. OTOH the extra initiative dice
of an animal such as a cat (2D6) aren't in any way boosted above normal --
the cat always gets them and didn't have to have cyberware implanted, a
spell cast on it, or have bought a physad power, in order to get them. In
such a case, I'd say that a cat with Increase Reflexes +3D6 gets 5D6 for
initiative.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The truth may be out there, but lies are inside you head.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 11
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:16:50 -0700
> This gave me a thought. Why not just say that the boost that the increase
> initiative spells give you is fixed, not relative. Get rid of the +3d6
> initiative dice spell, and rename it 4d6 initiative. That way, it does not
> matter what the original reflexes are, they are completely ignored by the
> spell and it just uses it's own fixed increase.

Steve? Tag this as "Best Idea of the Week"! I'm all for it, too.


-Mb
Message no. 12
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 07:41:31 -0400
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Date: Tuesday, October 21, 1997 7:43 AM

> There has been a ruling by Tom Dowd that only the highest initiative
boost
> applies -- so stacking, say, wired reflexes 2 with an Increase Reflexes
> +3D6 spell only gives you +3D6, not +5D6. OTOH the extra initiative dice
> of an animal such as a cat (2D6) aren't in any way boosted above normal
--
> the cat always gets them and didn't have to have cyberware implanted, a
> spell cast on it, or have bought a physad power, in order to get them. In
> such a case, I'd say that a cat with Increase Reflexes +3D6 gets 5D6 for
> initiative.

I agree with this. However, I can see how it could be argued that
shapeshifters are a special case. Shapeshifters aren't mundane animals.
They are magical. Their ability to change from human to animal is magical.
Therefore, it could very well be argued that their increased abilities in
animal form are also magical (ala physical adepts), and thus cannot be
stacked with other reflex enhancements. Otherwise, you end up with a
shapeshifter getting bioware (quite legal, according to the canon rules) in
the form of, let's say, a synaptic accelerator and getting up to 5d6
initiative in animal form.

I'm not sure how I feel about this possibility at the moment. Perhaps it
should be viewed as canon and kept legal. It just seems too much like
stacking reflex enhancements to me sometimes.

> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

Justin :)
Message no. 13
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 07:11:38 -0600
Matb wrote:
|
| > This gave me a thought. Why not just say that the boost that the increase
| > initiative spells give you is fixed, not relative. Get rid of the +3d6
| > initiative dice spell, and rename it 4d6 initiative. That way, it does not
| > matter what the original reflexes are, they are completely ignored by the
| > spell and it just uses it's own fixed increase.
|
| Steve? Tag this as "Best Idea of the Week"! I'm all for it, too.

And apply it to cyber- and bioware. The majority if initiative
boosting ware would give the character an initiative of xd6, whereas
a few items would give +xd6 initiative that's cumulative with
anything (or not, depending on the item description).

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 14
From: David Mezerette <mezeretted@*****.U-NANCY.FR>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:12:24 +0100
At 21:17 20/10/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:27:48 -0400 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
>writes:
>
><<That only applies if your body accepts the implants, however.
>Regeneration keeps shifters from accepting any cyber/bioware enhancements
>(the stuff just comes right back out in seconds). This is in the SR
>Companion with the Shapeshifter rules.>>
>
>No, it isn't. As written in the SR Companion, shapers only reject
>implanted cyberware, and only in animal form. It is not stated that
>bioware implants (of any type) are categorically rejected; any such
>ruling is a house rule. At the very least, however, it is rational to
>require that any bioware implanted into a shaper be cultured (otherwise,
>it may not shift form accordingly during a shapeshift. Could be
>especially nasty for Synthacardium implants<EGMG>:) All neural bioware is
>automatically cultured.
>
anyway , i hardly see a shapeshifter asking for culture bioware: what if the
surgeon discovers his/her true nature? 'but why are those genes so strange?'

ChYlD
mezeretted@*****.u-nancy.fr
Message no. 15
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:32:50 +0000
NightRain wrote:
> This gave me a thought. Why not just say that the boost that the increase
> initiative spells give you is fixed, not relative. Get rid of the +3d6
> initiative dice spell, and rename it 4d6 initiative. That way, it does not
> matter what the original reflexes are, they are completely ignored by the
> spell and it just uses it's own fixed increase.
>(*snip* same for wired reflexes and others)

Um.. (thinking, thinking, done).

Hand that man a cigar!

That's a very, very good idea. One of the best I've seen in a long
time. I agree 100%. It would solve almost all problems I can think
of. (Earlier today I was thinking about how a shapeshifter with
synaptic accelerator probably wouldn't get a bonus because his
shifted form probably had 'built in' accelerators as good as the
bioware. Your 'set dice' method is a way better way of handling it,
rather than by exceptions.

(Did I mention I thought it was a good idea? :)
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 16
From: David Mezerette <mezeretted@*****.U-NANCY.FR>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:50:38 +0100
At 12:12 21/10/97 +1000, you wrote:
>Justin wrote:
>> Trust me, there is no canon way to allow shifters to have any sort of
>> cyber/bioware. And, as far as I know, even if they are magicians or
>> physical adepts (which is legal), they can't increase their reflexes with
>> magic because that goes against the rules of stacking increased reflexes
>> (because shifters are considered magical, thus their increased reflexes
>> aren't natural).
>
>This gave me a thought. Why not just say that the boost that the increase
>initiative spells give you is fixed, not relative. Get rid of the +3d6
>initiative dice spell, and rename it 4d6 initiative. That way, it does not
>matter what the original reflexes are, they are completely ignored by the
>spell and it just uses it's own fixed increase.
>
i like it: it would avoid discussions w/ my player as to knowing if the
effect of this spell adds the initiative of an animal-form shapeshifter or a
'shapeshifted' (w/ the grimmy spell) mage; here's basically trhe argument: a
shapeshifted (let's say tiger shaped) mage is still sentient, so he/she is
affected by the spell, and, under this form, he/she has a 'natural'
initiative of 3D6. or perhaps does he/she have to design a special spell to
do it?

ChYlD
mezeretted@*****.u-nancy.fr
Message no. 17
From: Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:27:32 +0000
Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET> once wrote,

(snip)
> Otherwise, you end up with a
> shapeshifter getting bioware (quite legal, according to the canon rules) in
> the form of, let's say, a synaptic accelerator and getting up to 5d6
> initiative in animal form.

Quite legal? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it agreed upon that
when the words "No cyberware yadda yadda yadda" were used, it also
implied bioware? Just a question...

Trinity
--------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca

"Life is a blur"
Message no. 18
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:07:00 -0500
On Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:12:24 +0100 David Mezerette
<mezeretted@*****.U-NANCY.FR> writes:

>anyway , i hardly see a shapeshifter asking for culture bioware: what
>if the
>surgeon discovers his/her true nature? 'but why are those genes so
>strange?'


Personally, I can't see a shapeshifter even wanting to go under the knife
unless it was absolutely necessary.


--
John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --South Park
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 19
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:08:18 -0500
On Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:11:15 -0400 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
writes:

<<Okay, well, let's be expand upon logic for a moment. Say you're a
shifter in human form and get Wired 3 implanted. (Since, I suppose, it
is TECHNICALLY possible.) You're really fast in human form now. How
neat. So, are you NEVER going to shift into your animal form again?>>


Actually, I was only objecting at the presentation of the auto-rejection
of bioware implants as being canon. I agree with you about cyberware:) I
certainly don't see any reasons which are going to make a shaper *want*
to get bioware (at least, I can't see them liking the idea of being laid
open on a table) and cyberware is out of the question, anyway.



<<Perhaps bioware is open for debate according to the rules. However, it
seems logical to rule that initiative enhancements of any type are NOT
cumulative with those gained by being a shifter. I would probably either
rule out bioware entirely, or require it to be cultured in order to allow
a shifter to have it implanted and function without "difficulties". ;)>>


Well, bioware is already a bit of a grey area, but I would say that it's
safe to say that most initiative enhancements don't stack (mainly since
most work in essentially the same manner, by speeding up the transmission
of impulses form the brain to the body). Now, if you had two enhancements
that worked in two different ways (for instance, MBW and the Synaptic
Accelerator), then they could stack.


<<Justin "No! Don't kick the baby!">>

I don't think I've seen that one...
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:54:33 +0100
Justin Pinnow said on 7:41/21 Oct 97...

> I agree with this. However, I can see how it could be argued that
> shapeshifters are a special case. Shapeshifters aren't mundane animals.
> They are magical. Their ability to change from human to animal is magical.
> Therefore, it could very well be argued that their increased abilities in
> animal form are also magical (ala physical adepts), and thus cannot be
> stacked with other reflex enhancements. Otherwise, you end up with a
> shapeshifter getting bioware (quite legal, according to the canon rules) in
> the form of, let's say, a synaptic accelerator and getting up to 5d6
> initiative in animal form.

I think the way to look at this is to compare the shifter's initiative
with that of the mundane animal. Anything the shifter gets (in animal
form) that the normal animal doesn't can be considered magical and so
counts against the "no stacking" rule.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The truth may be out there, but lies are inside you head.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 21
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:53:27 -0400
> From: Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
> Date: Tuesday, October 21, 1997 6:27 AM

> Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET> once wrote,

> (snip)
> > Otherwise, you end up with a
> > shapeshifter getting bioware (quite legal, according to the canon
rules) in
> > the form of, let's say, a synaptic accelerator and getting up to 5d6
> > initiative in animal form.

> Quite legal? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it agreed upon that
> when the words "No cyberware yadda yadda yadda" were used, it also
> implied bioware? Just a question...

Well, when I lumped bioware together with cyberwear, it was brought up that
they are seperate entities and that since bioware wasn't specifically
outlawed in the passage being discussed, that bioware COULD be implanted.
I don't know if the term cyberwear in a rule includes bioware, but I didn't
think it did. Is there a passage somewhere that contradicts this?

> Trinity

Justin :)
Message no. 22
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:07:50 +1000
> > This gave me a thought. Why not just say that the boost that the
increase
> > initiative spells give you is fixed, not relative. Get rid of the +3d6
> > initiative dice spell, and rename it 4d6 initiative. That way, it does
not
> > matter what the original reflexes are, they are completely ignored by the
> > spell and it just uses it's own fixed increase.
>
> Steve? Tag this as "Best Idea of the Week"! I'm all for it, too.

Now we just have to make sure that Steve reads this.

You there Steve?
Please make my day and say that you'll use it.

NightRain.

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| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
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EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
Message no. 23
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:04:24 +1000
David wrote:
> | > This gave me a thought. Why not just say that the boost that the
increase
> | > initiative spells give you is fixed, not relative. Get rid of the +3d6
> | > initiative dice spell, and rename it 4d6 initiative. That way, it does
not
> | > matter what the original reflexes are, they are completely ignored by
the
> | > spell and it just uses it's own fixed increase.
> |
> | Steve? Tag this as "Best Idea of the Week"! I'm all for it, too.
>
> And apply it to cyber- and bioware. The majority if initiative
> boosting ware would give the character an initiative of xd6, whereas
> a few items would give +xd6 initiative that's cumulative with
> anything (or not, depending on the item description).

That's what I said in my original post. You could only see a bit of it in
the reply.

NightRain.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
Message no. 24
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: improve reflexes and shapeshifter
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 07:58:33 -0600
| > And apply it to cyber- and bioware. The majority if initiative
| > boosting ware would give the character an initiative of xd6, whereas
| > a few items would give +xd6 initiative that's cumulative with
| > anything (or not, depending on the item description).
|
| That's what I said in my original post. You could only see a bit of it in
| the reply.

Yeah, I know. I responded to the wrong post and didnt' realize until
it was to late that I'd just repeated what you said.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

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