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Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Increaseing Attributes
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 07:07:43 -0700
Timothy P Cooper wrote:
|
|I always liked WhiteWolf's method of making Attribute increases very
|expensive.

At the very least I wouldn't be opposed to increasing SR's
cost multiple for raising skills by 1 (x1 to x2 ?).
Unfortunately I couldn't do this in my game. It would give
the PCs that have allready raised their attributes a
serious advantage over those that haven't.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 2
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Increaseing Attributes
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:56:37 -0500
David Buehrer wrote:
>
> Timothy P Cooper wrote:
> |
> |I always liked WhiteWolf's method of making Attribute increases very
> |expensive.
>
> At the very least I wouldn't be opposed to increasing SR's
> cost multiple for raising skills by 1 (x1 to x2 ?).
> Unfortunately I couldn't do this in my game. It would give
> the PCs that have allready raised their attributes a
> serious advantage over those that haven't.
>
> -David

<SNIP>

The reason Shadowrun has lower costs for attribute increases as compared
to the WoD games is simple: Shadowrun's skills aren't as heavily rooted
in attributes as the WoD attributes are. In WoD, when you increase an
attribute, several skill ratings could go up as well. For example, if
you have half a dozen intelligence-based skills and you increase your
intelligence, those half a dozen skills increase as well. In Shadowrun,
if you increase your body, for example, your skills remain unaffected
(there may be some exceptions that I am unaware of).

Thus, it makes perfect sense for attribute increases in Shadowrun to be
much cheaper than attribute increases in WoD games.

--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 3
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Increaseing Attributes
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:14:29 -0700
Justin Pinnow wrote:
|
|> |I always liked WhiteWolf's method of making Attribute increases very
|> |expensive.
|>
|> At the very least I wouldn't be opposed to increasing SR's
|> cost multiple for raising skills by 1 (x1 to x2 ?).
|> Unfortunately I couldn't do this in my game. It would give
|> the PCs that have allready raised their attributes a
|> serious advantage over those that haven't.
|
|The reason Shadowrun has lower costs for attribute increases as compared
|to the WoD games is simple: Shadowrun's skills aren't as heavily rooted
|in attributes as the WoD attributes are. In WoD, when you increase an
|attribute, several skill ratings could go up as well. For example, if
|you have half a dozen intelligence-based skills and you increase your
|intelligence, those half a dozen skills increase as well. In Shadowrun,
|if you increase your body, for example, your skills remain unaffected
|(there may be some exceptions that I am unaware of).
|
|Thus, it makes perfect sense for attribute increases in Shadowrun to be
|much cheaper than attribute increases in WoD games.

Agreed.

But, to me it would make more sense for attribute increase
to be at least equal to the cost of increasing a skill
(IMHO it should be more). Think about how hard it is to
increase an attribute in RL, as compared to increasing a
skill or knowledge (which isn't all that easy either). But
then again, SR is a fantasy game and the ease of increasing
stats could be a reflection of the game's personality.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 4
From: Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Increaseing Attributes
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 01:14:54 +1100
At 11:14 AM 22/11/96 -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
>
>But, to me it would make more sense for attribute increase
>to be at least equal to the cost of increasing a skill
>(IMHO it should be more). Think about how hard it is to
>increase an attribute in RL, as compared to increasing a
>skill or knowledge (which isn't all that easy either). But
>then again, SR is a fantasy game and the ease of increasing
>stats could be a reflection of the game's personality.
>
>-David
>
>/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
> "His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
> alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
>~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
>
Yep. In some variants of the game my group play, we use the rule that
increasing attributes cost 2x to increase - same as skills. Otherwise,
any person who chooses 'A' in attributes while creating a character gains
little but loses a lot compared to a person who chooses 'A' in skills.

Chris

_______________________________________________________________
Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 5
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Increaseing Attributes
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:05:27 +1000
> Yep. In some variants of the game my group play, we use the rule that
> increasing attributes cost 2x to increase - same as skills. Otherwise,
> any person who chooses 'A' in attributes while creating a character gains
> little but loses a lot compared to a person who chooses 'A' in skills.
>

that changes if you cap the number of increases you are allowed o each
attrbute.... Gives you more incentive to buy the higher initial attributes.

How about as a compromise, You use x1 nromally, and x2 for any attribute
beyond normal racial max?

Bleach
Message no. 6
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Increaseing Attributes
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 19:20:46 PST
>How about as a compromise, You use x1 nromally, and x2 for any attribute
>beyond normal racial max?

You mean like it is now according to one of the optional rules in
the "Behind the scenes" chapter?
Message no. 7
From: "M. Gotthard" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Increaseing Attributes
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:35:18 +1000
> >How about as a compromise, You use x1 nromally, and x2 for any attribute
> >beyond normal racial max?
>
> You mean like it is now according to one of the optional rules in
> the "Behind the scenes" chapter?
>
Why not? Some of the threads on this list hash over ground already covered
in the books. The recent IR debate comes to mind (It's in Fields of Fire).

Hell, I don't play with unlimited attribute improvement, so it's all
academic to me.

Bleach.
Message no. 8
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Increaseing Attributes
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:22:20 -0800
On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Marty wrote:

> > Yep. In some variants of the game my group play, we use the rule that
> > increasing attributes cost 2x to increase - same as skills. Otherwise,
> > any person who chooses 'A' in attributes while creating a character gains
> > little but loses a lot compared to a person who chooses 'A' in skills.
> >
>
> that changes if you cap the number of increases you are allowed o each
> attrbute.... Gives you more incentive to buy the higher initial attributes.
>
> How about as a compromise, You use x1 nromally, and x2 for any attribute
> beyond normal racial max?
>
> Bleach
>

Isn't that "compromise" exactly what the SRII rules state (pg 190, "Good
Karma) about raising Atts? x1 up to racial max and x2 up to 1.5xracial
max, and you can't go beyond that (according to the rules). If you want
to do something like that, you could just increment the multiples one
point (x2,x3) or just double them (x2,x4)...

As with all rules use what ever makes your game run or your GM happy. :)
~Tim
Message no. 9
From: Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Increaseing Attributes
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:47:35 +1100
At 12:05 PM 25/11/96 +1000, Marty wrote:
>> Yep. In some variants of the game my group play, we use the rule that
>> increasing attributes cost 2x to increase - same as skills. Otherwise,
>> any person who chooses 'A' in attributes while creating a character gains
>> little but loses a lot compared to a person who chooses 'A' in skills.
>>
>
>that changes if you cap the number of increases you are allowed o each
>attrbute.... Gives you more incentive to buy the higher initial attributes.
>
>How about as a compromise, You use x1 nromally, and x2 for any attribute
>beyond normal racial max?
>
>Bleach
>
>
Ah. There's the rub. We don't allow attribute increases beyond racial max'
(other than through cyber/bioware) except through the special and rare
intervention of a very powerful being/force/'mysterious green glowing thing'.
Makes the players very grateful when it (rarely) does happen - and encourages
them to bring more beer for the GM. Additionally, this 'agent' only ever
raises
potential - they've got to spend the karma to get the result.


Chris

_______________________________________________________________
Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 10
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Increaseing Attributes
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 13:43:17 +0000
On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Marty wrote:

> How about as a compromise, You use x1 nromally, and x2 for any attribute
> beyond normal racial max?
er...thats the official rule.

Personally I never liked the optional rule allowing PCs to go over racial
maximum -I don't use it. Only select individuals would be able to go over
the racial maximum and then only in certain areas, eg Corp Scientist with
Intelligence of 8. Unless PCs give up something in character gen for this
potential (like the Otaku can) I don't allow it.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html

Further Reading

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Thwap!