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From:	Unix_Kurs7044 <c7044@*****.RZ.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE>
Subject:	Increasing Attributes
Date:	Wed, 18 May 1994 17:17:46 +0200

Message no. 1 Subject: Increasing Attributes

I'd like to tell you about a problem I encountered and how I solved it.
Feel free to comment the following :

PROBLEM: Did you ever see, how easy it is to increase an attributte
compared to increasing a skill. The rules are "next higher Rating x 1" for
attributes, and "next higher rating x 2" for general skills.
So it came to happen that the first thing my players did was increasing
their vital attributes ( like Body and Willpower, but also Intelligence)
up to their maximum. This meant that after some 3-4 runs all
characters were in top condition, they were all nearly up to their racial
maximum. This stinks. Average Attribute Ratings (humans) are all 3s.
To speeden up the process of reaching max attribute ratings, nearly
everyone put a high priority in Attributes at CharGen. I didn't like
this, because soon the GM (that's me) has to increase the abilities of
any opposition unproprtionally in order to be a threat for the players.
Believe me, it makes a lot of difference if a character has Body 3 or
Body 4. So I thought about this dilemma very hard and came to this ...

SOLUTION: First at CharGen I told the players (we started all over again
few weeks ago) to write down on their CRS what Priority they put on
attributes.
I had worked out this table:

_____________________________________________________________
Priority A B C D E
of Attributes

Mundane Character 25 21 18 15 13

Adept, 25/5 22/4 18/3 15/2 12/2

Magician (Priority A/B) -- 18/6 17/6 14/4 12/4
______________________________________________________________

EXPLANATION: This numbers are the amount of Karam a character has to
spend on increasing skills before he may increase an attribute.
Characters with a MagicRating have two numbers. The first gives the
overall amount of Karma he has to spend. But magicians and Adepts have
to divide their Karma between increasing skills and increasing their
Magic (see below).

Examples:

Butcher, StreetSamurai (Attr.: A) has to invest 25 points of Karma in
his skills. Karma that went to the KarmaPool doesn't count.
Mephisto, SorcererAdept (Attr.: C) has to invest 18 KarmaPoints.
Mephisto has to spend at least 4
KarmaPoints on his skills and 4 KarmaPoints on his Magic. They other 4
KarmaPoints he can use in either a Skill or his Magic.
Toaddy, a shaman (Attr.: E) has to spend 12 Karmapoints, with a minimum
for each category (skills and magic) of 4.
Daimon Targ, an ork ki-Adept (Attr.:B), has to spend 21 points on his
skills for he is not a magician in any sense. On this table he counts as
a mundane person, but if he uses Karma for initiation this counts toward
the minimum number of Karma invested.

Increasing one's magic refers to spending Karma on
* Learning a New Spell
* Creating an Ally
* Initiation and
* Bonding Foci (but no SpellLocks).

(Do not count Karma spend on SpellLocks, Quickened Spells, Karma
given to Spirits or put into the KarmaPool!)

Everytime a character ecxceeds that amount of Karma spent he can
increase one Attribute for one rating point. To increase another
attribute he has to wait until he invested another 25/21 ... points of
Karma in his skills(magic). The player should record every time how much
Karma he invested in his Character.
Of course the player has still to pay the Karma for increasing his
attribute.

OPTIONAL: If you don't like the idea that after all a player could
increase all his attributes up to his racial maximums, use this table.

--------------------------------------------------------------
max number of attribute increases
-------------------------------------------------------------
Priority on Attributes A B C D E

Human 3 7 11 15 18
Elf, Dwarf, Ork 4 9 13 17 21
Troll 7 12 17 22 27
--------------------------------------------------------------

So a human with attribute priority can only increase attributes 3x in
his whole life. He has to choose very carefully which one he will
increase. I admit, this is very restricting, and it is not used in my
current group.

(c) St.Willkofer

What do you think about this ???
Thanx for your time and patience, Mephisto ==St.Willkofer

From:	Unix_Kurs7044 <c7044@*****.RZ.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE>
Subject:	Increasing Attributes
Date:	Wed, 18 May 1994 18:52:56 +0200

Message no. 2 Of course, I forgot to mention that this rules are only useful when
you play a character for a long period of time. But I think this is
just the kick of any RPG: seeing how your character progresses and improves
the longer you play. And I like adventures and campaigns that are complex,
and therefore it is very useful to have a group where the characters
don't change too often. ( Player:" Excuse me, dear GM. But know I like the ideaa
of a rat shaman so much, can't we say me old character had some accident or
has to leave town so that I can create my shaman and bring him into the
team?" "What, but you had your present character only for three runs now
...!").
Example: Mephisto started out with Body 3 and REALLY wished to have a higher
Body. But due to this rule he was not able until he leraned a knew spell and
improved his Skills. The player complained a lot, but now he has recieved a
total of 43 KarmaPoints and increased his body to 4. He likes the character
so much, you can't imagine. It's real love ...

Thanx for your time, St.Willkofer (Creator of Mephisto)

From:	"David L. Hoff" <DLHOFF@****.WISC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Increasing Attributes
Date:	Wed, 18 May 1994 18:05:00 CDT

Message no. 3 The problem here is that in the first edition SR rules, Karma could only be
used to raise an attribute one point above its starting level. Period.
If you created your character with a 3 body, the most you could _ever_ raise
it using Karma would be one point to a 4.

In the second edition rules, they left that part out. I however still use that
rule from first edition. Otherwise, everyone soon would have maxed out
attributes.

--Dave
dlhoff@****.wisc.edu

From:	Bryan Prince <WALAB@******.HH.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Increasing Attributes
Date:	Thu, 19 May 1994 07:37:25 -0600

Message no. 4 I don't see a problem with raising the attributes through Karma, but
I have to pay 2*current level to raise a level. Also, I must study or train
in order to raise that stat. STR and BOD=Body building and weight training;
Look at current Weightlifting professionals, they go from 165lbs to 250+
of solid muscle in 12-18 mos. I admit that not all the attributes can be
raised in this fashion, but limiting the PC to only one level of increase
forces them to make attributes the highest priority. A GM can limit the rate
of increase, can set tasks to complete before an increase can be given and
can ultimately deny any increase (s)he feels is unjustified. It is not
just an automatic thing.
STR, BOD=Bodybuilding and Weight training
QUICKNESS=Gymnastics and Martial Arts training
CHARISMA=Nutrition (1 level), Cosmetology, and non-cyber plastic surgery
(2 levels max)
INTELLIGENCE=University level study, Puzzles, Mathematics
WILL=Mental Diciplines (Mystical Studies [Monk or Jesuit training])

Just my 0.2 =Y= worth-
Bryan Prince

From:	"S.K. Khoo" <S.K.Khoo@*********.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Increasing Attributes
Date:	Thu, 19 May 1994 16:19:44 +0100

Message no. 5 In reply to David L. Hoff ...

> The problem here is that in the first edition SR rules, Karma could only be
> used to raise an attribute one point above its starting level. Period.
> If you created your character with a 3 body, the most you could _ever_ raise
> it using Karma would be one point to a 4.

Kind of dumb, right, which is why ...

> In the second edition rules, they left that part out.

You said it, bud.

> I however still use that rule from first edition. Otherwise, everyone soon
> would have maxed out attributes.

I think the reason why FASA revamped this area of the rules was to
make it more realistic. By allowing players to increase their stats just one
beyond the original, it simulated the effort put into building physique by
the characters.

Anyone should be able to improve any of their stats, physical or
mental, through experience, self-study, etc., etc.. If you have a problem
with your players' attributes peaking too early or too easily, you could
always introduce restrictions of your own such as increasing the cost of
improving their stats by, say, 1.5x or even 2x ( more if you're one sadistic
bastard of a GM :) ! ). I would really NOT recommend making original stat
assignments permanent.

Anyway, talk to your players and see how they feel about it, too. :)

From:	"S.K. Khoo" <S.K.Khoo@*********.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Increasing Attributes
Date:	Fri, 20 May 1994 09:28:18 +0100

Message no. 6 > ... allowing players to increase their stats by just
> one beyond the original, it simulated ...

Whoops ! Mistake here - this should read: "... increase their stats
by MORE THAN just one beyond the original ... "

From:	Matthew McCormick <mcormick@*****.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Increasing Attributes
Date:	Fri, 20 May 1994 17:34:52 -0700

Message no. 7 Sorry guys, I havn't read my mail for a few days but I have been
wrestling with the problem ever since I started GMing SR ( a LONG time).
I have finally decided that the 1.5x the starting stat as max is the
best way to go. The reason for this are threefold. First, the
way it is implied in SR2, anyone can get to racial maximum via karmic
increase. While your characters are supposed to be heros of a sort, they still
should'nt be allowed to increase their base stats too much. Let's say for
example that you have a st sam that starts with an intelligence of 1. I
just don't think that he would have the raw potential to have an
intelligence of 6 eventually. Secondly, by having no base limit, it
encourages players to make ultra munchkin characters with regard to one or
two stats and ignore the others because they know that they can increase
them later. Thirdly, I find that players that are willing to make the
tradeoff and live with the disadvantages that come with some permanently
limited stats are the best roleplayers and are the most adaptable sorts of
characters. They simply have to deal with their low stat and be creative
rather than wait till they get the karma to increase the stat. One of the
best characters in my campaign was a troll who had an intelligence of 2.
The player was so good at playing him, he never felt like he had to raise
the intelligence.
As a final note, sometimes I will allow players to raise the low
stats above 1.5x IF they give me a really good reason, and a great story,
because that is simply fun roleplaying. Also, I always allow stats to be
raised at least 1 point.

The Grand Poobah!
Students for War & Oppression
@@@@ @ @ @@@@ Counter productive, highly destructive!
@ @ @@ @ @ @ ---
@@@@ @ @@ @ @ @ Celebrating the occurrences of War &
@ @ @@ @ @ @ Oppression since the dawn of time
@@@@ @@@@ @@@@ -- Even the planets were born in turmoil... --

From:	Joker <s1057948@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject:	Increasing Attributes.
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 1996 15:07:44 +1000 (EST)

Message no. 8 On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Loki wrote:

> If you're allowing your runners the rule of going to 1.5 times the
> racial maximum for double the Karma cost per SRII page 190 (i.e. 16
> karma from 7 --> 8 for a dwarf), then there's a potential for a WILL of
> 10. But I agree your point is still about the same...
>
> @>-,--'--- Loki

Just Aside:

In my campain we don't allow the increasing of any attribute more than
once via Karma. This allows the people with good attributes at the start
to maintain there advantage, and you don't have anyone with Straight 6 or
indeed straight 9 Base stats.

===================================================================
If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let'em go,
because, man, they're gone.
===================================================================
The Joker,
Craig Chatfield. Email : s1057948@*****.student.gu.au

===================================================================
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate.
And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never
expect it.

From:	Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject:	Re: Increasing Attributes.
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 1996 00:14:22 -0700

Message no. 9 Joker wrote:
>
> On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Loki wrote:
>
> > If you're allowing your runners the rule of going to 1.5 times the
> > racial maximum for double the Karma cost per SRII page 190 (i.e. 16
> > karma from 7 --> 8 for a dwarf), then there's a potential for a WILL of
> > 10. But I agree your point is still about the same...
> >
> > @>-,--'--- Loki
>
> Just Aside:
>
> In my campain we don't allow the increasing of any attribute more than
> once via Karma. This allows the people with good attributes at the start
> to maintain there advantage, and you don't have anyone with Straight 6 or
> indeed straight 9 Base stats.

What works for the group probably varies from game to game. I allow the
1.5 over racial maximums based off our DM's attitude when I was playing
AD&D that your usual adventurer (runner) will be of a class that far
exceeds even the above-average, otherwise they wouldn't survive in their
"field". Perhaps for another group with another style of play or another
GM it would work differently, as in your case.

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/

From:	"Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject:	Re: Increasing Attributes.
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:39:32 +0000

Message no. 10 On 27 Aug 96 at 15:07, Joker wrote:

> In my campain we don't allow the increasing of any attribute more than
> once via Karma. This allows the people with good attributes at the start
> to maintain there advantage, and you don't have anyone with Straight 6 or
> indeed straight 9 Base stats.
Shadowrun 1st Ed, anyone? :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

From:	Max Rible <cheshire@*****.com>
Subject:	Re: Increasing Attributes.
Date:	Tue, 27 Aug 1996 10:20:02 -0800

Message no. 11 At 15:07 8/27/96 +1000, Joker wrote:
>On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Loki wrote:
>> If you're allowing your runners the rule of going to 1.5 times the
>> racial maximum for double the Karma cost per SRII page 190 (i.e. 16
>> karma from 7 --> 8 for a dwarf), then there's a potential for a WILL of
>> 10. But I agree your point is still about the same...

>In my campain we don't allow the increasing of any attribute more than
>once via Karma. This allows the people with good attributes at the start
>to maintain there advantage, and you don't have anyone with Straight 6 or
>indeed straight 9 Base stats.

In my current campaign, at first we decided to read the rule as "you can
only increase your stats once, but you can take them over racial maximum".
However, there were enough references to getting to 1.5x racial maximum
that we figured that the original intention at FASA was indeed to allow
raising stats more than once. Since we didn't want to have the "I went
from a Str 1 weakling to a buff Str 9 'cos I answered the Charles Atlas
ad on Shadowland" phenomenon, we decided that you can increase your
attributes by three points or to 1.5x racial maximum, whichever is less.
This means a human can only get to Str 9 if they started out at Str 6,
and a Troll can reach Int 6 or Cha 6 from at least Int 3 or Cha 3.
--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%%
%%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%%

From:	Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Increasing Attributes
Date:	Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:20:16 -0500

Message no. 12 >I completely fail to understand why something like Charisma and Intelligence
>could be increased thru training.

Well, from personal experience, I think I have gotten much more charismatic than
I was in junior high, for instance... There are all sorts of reasons that one could
become more perceptive to the emotions and needs of those around you:
improved self-esteem, realizing you are a dork and vowing to change, life
experience causing you to walk a few miles in uncomfortable shoes... All of these
things are possible and happen all the time, although, I agree, its not the kind of
thing you can just decide to do.

Double-Domed Mike

From:	Sanction <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Increasing Attributes
Date:	Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:54:51 -0500

Message no. 13 At 12:20 PM 11/20/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>I completely fail to understand why something like Charisma and Intelligence
>>could be increased thru training.
>
>Well, from personal experience, I think I have gotten much more charismatic
than
>I was in junior high, for instance... There are all sorts of reasons that
one could
>become more perceptive to the emotions and needs of those around you:
>improved self-esteem, realizing you are a dork and vowing to change, life
>experience causing you to walk a few miles in uncomfortable shoes... All
of these
>things are possible and happen all the time, although,

***
>I agree, its not the kind of
>thing you can just decide to do.
***
Exactly, don't confuse the player's decision to put those karma into
charisma with some kind of decision the character made to go to a bar and
hit on (item of preference) until he got better at it. Instead, think of it
as a SLOW development of personality that is reflected by a somewhat sudden
change because of how the karma rules work.

--Sanction

From:	Mark McLaughlin <mmclaugh@*******.EENG.DCU.IE>
Subject:	Re: Increasing Attributes
Date:	Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:48:27 -0800

Message no. 14 Mike Elkins wrote:
>
> >I completely fail to understand why something like Charisma and Intelligence
> >could be increased thru training.
>
> Well, from personal experience, I think I have gotten much more charismatic than
> I was in junior high, for instance... There are all sorts of reasons that one could
> become more perceptive to the emotions and needs of those around you:
> improved self-esteem, realizing you are a dork and vowing to change, life
> experience causing you to walk a few miles in uncomfortable shoes... All of these
> things are possible and happen all the time, although, I agree, its not the kind of
> thing you can just decide to do.
>
> Double-Domed Mike

I think intelligence to a very large extent is defined at birth and
there is little (not nothing) one can do to improve it.

Mark McL

From:	"Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Increasing Attributes
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:53:39 -0800

Message no. 15 > >>I completely fail to understand why something like Charisma and Intelligence
> >>could be increased thru training.

If you consider that Charism is used to influence another person's train
of thought, think about salesmen, and those motivational speakers.

Having been a salesman myself I can GUARANTEE that there were times I
had TOTAL control over a person's mind. They would have bought ANYTHING
I put infront of them! :-)

Now this never happened when I first started in sales, but as I
practiced my pitch, it happened more often. Practice definately can
improve your charismatic skills, and learning to be confident and sound
in control can affect your raw charisma.

IMHO charisma is not a measure of any ability on your part, rather it is
a measuer of how people percieve you.
Anything from improved posture, to fresh breath can improve that. :-)

P.S. - Yes, I know I just revealed that I'm a salesman, and yes, I
realize that I'm evil because of it, but hey! At least I'm not a
newspaper reporter anymore! Or a politician!

Steven A. Tiner
bluewizard@*****.com

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