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Message no. 1
From: BulletShower <nmatausc@****.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>
Subject: Increasing Attributes (Was: PA and cibereflexes)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:50:23 +1000
Hoi all.

I don't know if this thread has been discussed yet, so hopefully I
won't need an asbestos suit next time ;)
We have some problems concerning the process of attributes increase.
There are some attributes which, IOC, can't be raised. These are
Charisma and Intelligence. While I understand and accept that you
can become tougher thru exercise (Body), faster thru exercise
(Quickness), stronger, and more stubborn, I completely fail to
understand why something like Charisma and Intelligence could be
increased thru training. Sorry, can't accept that.

:)
BulletShower



______________________________________________________________________
"Gott wuerfelt nicht" (A. Einstein)
For More information on diceless roleplaying and own Shadowrun stuff,
jack into http://www.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~nmatausc
Message no. 2
From: Thunder <kusti@*****.DFMK.HU>
Subject: Re: Increasing Attributes (Was: PA and cibereflexes)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:18:06 +0100
On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, BulletShower wrote:

> Charisma and Intelligence. While I understand and accept that you
> can become tougher thru exercise (Body), faster thru exercise
> (Quickness), stronger, and more stubborn, I completely fail to
> understand why something like Charisma and Intelligence could be
> increased thru training. Sorry, can't accept that.

Hoi!

I think in case of Intelligence is the best solution to rename it to
Perception (We did it and functions ok, but there is problem with the
Skill Web(TM))
In case of WillPower you get more endure and possibly have some encounters
with Magic. Charisma could be increased if you had some situations relying
on it.

-Thunder

PS. We have a HOUSE RULE, that the GM has to agree if you want to increase
something and it is not enough to have the Karma.
Message no. 3
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Increasing Attributes (Was: PA and cibereflexes)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:42:06 -0500
BulletShower wrote:
>
> Hoi all.
>
> I don't know if this thread has been discussed yet, so hopefully I
> won't need an asbestos suit next time ;)
> We have some problems concerning the process of attributes increase.
> There are some attributes which, IOC, can't be raised. These are
> Charisma and Intelligence. While I understand and accept that you
> can become tougher thru exercise (Body), faster thru exercise
> (Quickness), stronger, and more stubborn, I completely fail to
> understand why something like Charisma and Intelligence could be
> increased thru training. Sorry, can't accept that.

Well, Charisma can be trained. Just learn how to schmooze better. All
it is is effective social interaction. Of course you can improve your
ability to do that. It just takes awhile. Intelligence (quickness of
thought/perception, etc.) can be increased by frequent use over time.

<Snip>


--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 4
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Increasing Attributes (Was: PA and cibereflexes)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:05:36 -0700
BulletShower wrote:
|
|Hoi all.
|
|I don't know if this thread has been discussed yet, so hopefully I
|won't need an asbestos suit next time ;)
|We have some problems concerning the process of attributes increase.
|There are some attributes which, IOC, can't be raised. These are
|Charisma and Intelligence. While I understand and accept that you
|can become tougher thru exercise (Body), faster thru exercise
|(Quickness), stronger, and more stubborn, I completely fail to
|understand why something like Charisma and Intelligence could be
|increased thru training. Sorry, can't accept that.

Both Charisma and Intelligence can be increased through
training and experience.

Charisma, for example, can be increased over time if a
person has a desire to do so, through experience (trial and
error) and teaching (classes on communication, leadership,
small talk, etc).

Intelligence can be increased if one takes the time to do
so, by playing games and using your mind. Also, certain
environments can increase your intelligence (college,
discussion groups like this one, etc).

Any active use of a skill or attribute will increase that
skill or attribute. The more you use it, the better you
get. I.e., you can exercise your intelligence and charisma
just as you can exercise your body to increase your
strength, body, and quickness (ditto for willpower too).

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 5
From: BulletShower <nmatausc@****.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Increasing Attributes (Was: PA and cibereflexes)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:38:48 +1000
David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG> wrote:

> Both Charisma and Intelligence can be increased through
> training and experience.
>
> Charisma, for example, can be increased over time if a
> person has a desire to do so, through experience (trial and
> error) and teaching (classes on communication, leadership,
> small talk, etc).

I disagree. As you maybe all recall, in high school you had teachers
who were liked by most of the class, and others who weren't. Both
teachers had classes and seminars on education psychology and stuff.
Charisma is the thing what we Germans call "Ausstrahlung", it's the
way somebody "feels" to you. This, IMHO, can't be increased. It may
be "cloaked", but it can't be increased.


> Intelligence can be increased if one takes the time to do
> so, by playing games and using your mind. Also, certain
> environments can increase your intelligence (college,
> discussion groups like this one, etc).

Nope, again, I disagree. All instances you're giving will do one
thing: they'll increase your *knowledge*, not your intelligence. If
somebody just is not able to add 1 and 1, and this somebody takes
maths courses, he'll *know*, that 1 and 1 is 2 - but he won't
understand it. ;)



:)
BulletShower
______________________________________________________________________
"Gott wuerfelt nicht" (A. Einstein)
For More information on diceless roleplaying and own Shadowrun stuff,
jack into http://www.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~nmatausc
Message no. 6
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Increasing Attributes (Was: PA and cibereflexes)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:13:49 -0700
BulletShower wrote:
|
|David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG> wrote:
|
|> Both Charisma and Intelligence can be increased through
|> training and experience.
|>
|> Charisma, for example, can be increased over time if a
|> person has a desire to do so, through experience (trial and
|> error) and teaching (classes on communication, leadership,
|> small talk, etc).
|
|I disagree. As you maybe all recall, in high school you had teachers
|who were liked by most of the class, and others who weren't. Both
|teachers had classes and seminars on education psychology and stuff.
|Charisma is the thing what we Germans call "Ausstrahlung", it's the
|way somebody "feels" to you. This, IMHO, can't be increased. It may
|be "cloaked", but it can't be increased.

IMHO low charisma = a combination of physical ugly and
distasteful personality. High charisma = combination of
physical beauty and likeable personality. There are always
exceptions. A truely disfigured person can over come their
physical presence with a winning personality. And likewise
a beautiful person can have a shit personality.

Physical appearance can be changed and (depending on your
view) improved.

Personality can be changed. Usually it takes a traumatic
experience (asshole has a near death experience and changes
for the better, nice guy gets divorced and ceases to care
about other people and becomes an asshole). And personal
philosophies can change, which can lead to a change in
personality. In these examples I'm talking about the core
of a person.

In the cases of psychological trauma a change in
personality can happen very quickly. Changes in philosophy
usually take time (years) and influence.

|> Intelligence can be increased if one takes the time to do
|> so, by playing games and using your mind. Also, certain
|> environments can increase your intelligence (college,
|> discussion groups like this one, etc).
|
|Nope, again, I disagree. All instances you're giving will do one
|thing: they'll increase your *knowledge*, not your intelligence. If
|somebody just is not able to add 1 and 1, and this somebody takes
|maths courses, he'll *know*, that 1 and 1 is 2 - but he won't
|understand it. ;)

It has been proven (can't remember the source) that the
more you use your brain, the better your brain becomes. If
you take the time each day to expose your brain to complex
input (do crosswords, play chess, paint, write, etc) the
brain cells that you use will become more efficient. It's
just like exercising a muscle. It's not just a matter of
gaining knowledge.

And if a person has a deficient brain (can't do math) then
that's another story entirely. That's a function of brain
malfunction/deformity/damage.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Increasing Attributes (Was: PA and cibereflexes)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:58:15 +0100
BulletShower said on 17:38/20 Nov 96...

> I disagree. As you maybe all recall, in high school you had teachers
> who were liked by most of the class, and others who weren't. Both
> teachers had classes and seminars on education psychology and stuff.
> Charisma is the thing what we Germans call "Ausstrahlung"

Literally: "out-radiation"... Glad I didn't go to school in Germany :)

> Nope, again, I disagree. All instances you're giving will do one
> thing: they'll increase your *knowledge*, not your intelligence. If
> somebody just is not able to add 1 and 1, and this somebody takes
> maths courses, he'll *know*, that 1 and 1 is 2 - but he won't
> understand it. ;)

I have to agree here. Knowledge is quite separate from intelligence, but
(the way I see it) they are often confused -- like calling someone who
doesn't know the answer to a question "dumb." Anyway, SR's Intelligence is
much more Perception than any real level of intelligence (please don't
call it "IQ," I don't believe you can directly compare intelligence with
IQ) and training perception can be done, if you ask me. Still, I think
it's also something you already have to have in order to really improve on
it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dream out loud.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 8
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Increasing Attributes (Was: PA and cibereflexes)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:38:20 -0800
>
> Hoi all.
>
> I don't know if this thread has been discussed yet, so hopefully I
> won't need an asbestos suit next time ;)
> We have some problems concerning the process of attributes increase.
> There are some attributes which, IOC, can't be raised. These are
> Charisma and Intelligence. While I understand and accept that you
> can become tougher thru exercise (Body), faster thru exercise
> (Quickness), stronger, and more stubborn, I completely fail to
> understand why something like Charisma and Intelligence could be
> increased thru training. Sorry, can't accept that.
>
> :)
> BulletShower
>

I disagree, you can work on things like perceptiveness and charisma...case study
is myself. Over the past few (like about 5) years I've gone from a serious
shut-in, non-social person to something closely approximating normal...it's been
a deliberate change with effort on my part to just plain lower walls and not be
so self-conscious. All the atts are thing that you can work on to improve, but
just in different ways.

Also the atts are too cheap to increase why not the newratingx2 like skills?
~Tim
Message no. 9
From: John Pederson <Canthros@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Increasing Attributes (Was: PA and cibereflexes)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:28:07 -0500
In a message dated 96-11-20 08:03:44 EST, you write:

>I don't know if this thread has been discussed yet, so hopefully I
>won't need an asbestos suit next time ;)
>We have some problems concerning the process of attributes increase.
>There are some attributes which, IOC, can't be raised. These are
>Charisma and Intelligence. While I understand and accept that you
>can become tougher thru exercise (Body), faster thru exercise
>(Quickness), stronger, and more stubborn, I completely fail to
>understand why something like Charisma and Intelligence could be
>increased thru training. Sorry, can't accept that.

First, Charisma relates to Appearance (which seems to be what you're seeing)
but also to basic mannerisms, personality, etc...and it really has more to do
with the mental aspects (personality and the like) than the visible, physical
effects (like appearance)...so, one can improve their personality through
interaction with others...As for Intelligence, it relates to perception and
quickness of the person's thought processes, and, while some people will
_never_ be as "intelligent" as others, in SR, Intelligence (as has been
discussed before) could be better represented if re-named Perception...just
my thoughts...

John Pederson "God is dead"
canthros@***.com -Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 to 1900)
lobo1@****.com "Nietzsche is dead"
http://members.gnn.com/lenoj/johns.htm -God (everlasting to everlasting)

"Only dead fish swim with the stream."
Message no. 10
From: John Pederson <Canthros@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Increasing Attributes (Was: PA and cibereflexes)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:28:18 -0500
In a message dated 96-11-20 11:48:06 EST, you write:

>> Both Charisma and Intelligence can be increased through
>> training and experience.
>>
>> Charisma, for example, can be increased over time if a
>> person has a desire to do so, through experience (trial and
>> error) and teaching (classes on communication, leadership,
>> small talk, etc).
>
>I disagree. As you maybe all recall, in high school you had teachers
>who were liked by most of the class, and others who weren't. Both
>teachers had classes and seminars on education psychology and stuff.
>Charisma is the thing what we Germans call "Ausstrahlung", it's the
>way somebody "feels" to you. This, IMHO, can't be increased. It may
>be "cloaked", but it can't be increased.

Yes, and no. From what I can see, what you're talking about isn't
necessarily in the Charisma Attribute. It all depends on the source of the
"Ausstrahlung"-if it comes because the person either appeals/doesn't appeal
to a large groupt of people, then it really deals more with their
personality, which doesn't necesarily figure into Charisma as an attribute...

>> Intelligence can be increased if one takes the time to do
>> so, by playing games and using your mind. Also, certain
>> environments can increase your intelligence (college,
>> discussion groups like this one, etc).
>
>Nope, again, I disagree. All instances you're giving will do one
>thing: they'll increase your *knowledge*, not your intelligence. If
>somebody just is not able to add 1 and 1, and this somebody takes
>maths courses, he'll *know*, that 1 and 1 is 2 - but he won't
>understand it. ;)

I have to agree with Buehrer, those kinds of activities _will_ increase your
intelligence, not just your knowledge. You're right, there is a difference
between the two, but hese kinds of activities will sharpen your mind as well
as fill it up:)
Just my two cents:)

John Pederson "God is dead"
canthros@***.com -Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 to 1900)
lobo1@****.com "Nietzsche is dead"
http://members.gnn.com/lenoj/johns.htm -God (everlasting to everlasting)

"Only dead fish swim with the stream."
Message no. 11
From: John Pederson <Canthros@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Increasing Attributes (Was: PA and cibereflexes)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:28:11 -0500
In a message dated 96-11-20 10:11:49 EST, you write:
<snip, snip, snippity-snip>
>Any active use of a skill or attribute will increase that
>skill or attribute. The more you use it, the better you
>get. I.e., you can exercise your intelligence and charisma
>just as you can exercise your body to increase your
>strength, body, and quickness (ditto for willpower too).

But the bad news is that a complete lack of use of something will lower the
Attribute-if a weightlifter doesn't continue to train his body, he'll lose
his strength, ditto for the brainiac that spends his summer playing video
games and comic books-when school starts again, he'll be braindead. This I
know:)

John Pederson "God is dead"
canthros@***.com -Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 to 1900)
lobo1@****.com "Nietzsche is dead"
http://members.gnn.com/lenoj/johns.htm -God (everlasting to everlasting)

"Only dead fish swim with the stream."
Message no. 12
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Increasing Attributes (Was: PA and cibereflexes)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 23:53:46 +0000
In message <153A1BA1208@****.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de>, BulletShower
<nmatausc@****.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE> writes
>Nope, again, I disagree. All instances you're giving will do one
>thing: they'll increase your *knowledge*, not your intelligence. If
>somebody just is not able to add 1 and 1, and this somebody takes
>maths courses, he'll *know*, that 1 and 1 is 2 - but he won't
>understand it. ;)

Intelligence in Shadowrun is much more linked to _perception_ than to IQ
or other measures of problem-solving.

You can learn to spot the signs of an ambush, to hear the noises made by
a handful of soldiers determined to make no noise at all (it's almost an
absence of noise if they're good), to recognise the sound of a flare
being fired and so be prone in cover before it ignites...

Albert Einstein might have been a genius, but in SR his Intelligence
might have been 2 or 3 - he wasn't that aware of the world around him.

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 13
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Increasing Attributes (Was: PA and cibereflexes)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 23:49:51 +0000
In message <14FD3082B64@****.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de>, BulletShower
<nmatausc@****.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE> writes
>We have some problems concerning the process of attributes increase.
>There are some attributes which, IOC, can't be raised. These are
>Charisma and Intelligence. While I understand and accept that you
>can become tougher thru exercise (Body), faster thru exercise
>(Quickness), stronger, and more stubborn, I completely fail to
>understand why something like Charisma and Intelligence could be
>increased thru training. Sorry, can't accept that.

Intelligence is not personal IQ, but ability to percieve what is going
on around you and suchlike. You _can_ learn to spot ambushes at a
distance, to spot camouflaged men moving in the night, et cetera, so I
don't have a problem with increasing Intelligence.

Charisma is about your ability to project your will onto others. Again,
this is something that can be taught and can be learned. You can learn
to lead men, you can learn to lie, you can learn how to force the
nervous shakes down and present your work package to your Managing
Director and senior officials from the Ministry of Defence :)

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 14
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Increasing Attributes (Was: PA and cibereflexes)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:15:34 +1000
> In message <153A1BA1208@****.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de>, BulletShower
> <nmatausc@****.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE> writes
> >Nope, again, I disagree. All instances you're giving will do one
> >thing: they'll increase your *knowledge*, not your intelligence. If
> >somebody just is not able to add 1 and 1, and this somebody takes
> >maths courses, he'll *know*, that 1 and 1 is 2 - but he won't
> >understand it. ;)
>
> Intelligence in Shadowrun is much more linked to _perception_ than to IQ
> or other measures of problem-solving.
>
On the other hand, I seem to recall Intelligence being linked to
knowledge skills through the skill web.

Bleach

Further Reading

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