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Message no. 1
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: In defense of Bad Karma
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 11:51:02 -0500
This is an idea that, if used badly, really sucks. We all agree. Could it be used
not badly? Some say no, others say yes. Here is my 2c.

If you want to put Bad Karma into the game, you need to answer some
philosophical questions first. Here they are:

In real life, in 1996, it "raineth on the just and the unjust alike". If there
are higher
powers in the universe, they do not hand out good and bad fortune based on
morality (in this life, anyway). For most of us, we wish the same to apply in SR.

The awakening COULD have changed this, however. Souls have an observable
existance, one can travel to spiritual planes of existance, why not? Characters
who perform great deeds are already rewarded with advancement (in the form of
karma). This is very common in RPGs, but inherently unrealistic. In Earthdawn,
they explicitly give a rational: Magic causes those who behave like heros to
become like heros. A GM COULD deceide that certain life-patterns in our
collective unconscious, certain choices of deeds and attributes, resonate strongly
due to thousands of years of myth and/or divine intervention. If you act like a
mythic good guy or a mythic bad guy, mythic good guy or mythic bad guy stuff
will happen to you.

All that said, it seems to me that assigning a number to this process is not such a
great idea. If you want a villian to be surrounded by an astral stink of decadence
and villany, do it. If you feel that a PC's soul has been marked by their lack of
compassion, have it show in their aura. If you try to create hard and fast rules
for it, though, players will simply munchkinize it.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 2
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: In defense of Bad Karma
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 10:16:12 -0600 (MDT)
Mike Wrote:
|
|If you want to put Bad Karma into the game, you need to
|answer some philosophical questions first. Here they are:
|
|In real life, in 1996, it "raineth on the just and the
|unjust alike". If there are higher powers in the universe,
|they do not hand out good and bad fortune based on morality
|(in this life, anyway). For most of us, we wish the same
|to apply in SR.

Ditto. True, there might be some forces that will be very
friendly towards the characters based on their actions, but
in the overall picture I don't think that fate or random
chance or chaos really care.

|The awakening COULD have changed this, however. Souls have
|an observable existance, one can travel to spiritual planes
|of existance, why not? Characters who perform great deeds
|are already rewarded with advancement (in the form of
|karma). This is very common in RPGs, but inherently
|unrealistic. In Earthdawn, they explicitly give a
|rational: Magic causes those who behave like heros to
|become like heros. A GM COULD deceide that certain
|life-patterns in our collective unconscious, certain
|choices of deeds and attributes, resonate strongly due to
|thousands of years of myth and/or divine intervention. If
|you act like a mythic good guy or a mythic bad guy, mythic
|good guy or mythic bad guy stuff will happen to you.

It sounds like it's an essential part of Earthdawn. I
don't see SR that way. IMHO, SR should be dark and
dangerous most of the time, and completely unbiased in
regards to good and bad.

|All that said, it seems to me that assigning a number to
|this process is not such a great idea. If you want a
|villian to be surrounded by an astral stink of decadence
|and villany, do it. If you feel that a PC's soul has been
|marked by their lack of compassion, have it show in their
|aura. If you try to create hard and fast rules for it,
|though, players will simply munchkinize it.

Which brings the topic to something that I want to rant
about. I'm starting to have a real hard time feeling that
the Karma Pool is justified. If the universe doesn't care
if you're "bad", why should it care if you're "good"? If a
character does something "bad", or stupid, most of the
people on this list seem to feel that they should suffer
the consequences of their actions through roleplaying. Yet
if a character does something "good", or succeeds, they get
more points for their Karma Pool. They can then use their
Karma Pool to overcome insurmountable odds, defying random
chance and fate. Sure, it creates a great cinematic/heroic
effect. But it changes the nature of the game. When the
PCs in my game where rookies it was cold and dark and
unforgiving, as represented by the rules of the game. Now
my game has turned into a comic book. I'm thinking of
tossing the Karma Pool rules altogether, in my game, so
that I can return to what attracted me in the first place.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 3
From: "Terry L. Amburgey" <xanth@********.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: In defense of Bad Karma
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 13:10:34 -0400
>If you want to put Bad Karma into the game, you need to answer some
>philosophical questions first. Here they are:
>
>In real life, in 1996, it "raineth on the just and the unjust alike". If
there are higher
>powers in the universe, they do not hand out good and bad fortune based on
>morality (in this life, anyway). For most of us, we wish the same to apply
in SR.
>
>The awakening COULD have changed this, however. Souls have an observable
>existance, one can travel to spiritual planes of existance, why not?
Characters
>who perform great deeds are already rewarded with advancement (in the form of
>karma). This is very common in RPGs, but inherently unrealistic. In
Earthdawn,
>they explicitly give a rational: Magic causes those who behave like heros to
>become like heros. A GM COULD deceide that certain life-patterns in our
>collective unconscious, certain choices of deeds and attributes, resonate
strongly
>due to thousands of years of myth and/or divine intervention. If you act
like a
>mythic good guy or a mythic bad guy, mythic good guy or mythic bad guy stuff
>will happen to you.
>
>All that said, it seems to me that assigning a number to this process is
not such a
>great idea. If you want a villian to be surrounded by an astral stink of
decadence
>and villany, do it. If you feel that a PC's soul has been marked by their
lack of
>compassion, have it show in their aura. If you try to create hard and fast
rules
>for it, though, players will simply munchkinize it.


How about a take on 'bad karma' that has nothing to do with morality and
thus works both with goodie-two-shoes groups and psycho-splatterpunk groups:
bad karma is a mechanic based on the same criteria as good karma.

Good karma has nothing to dow with morality or luck, its the shadowrun game
mechanic for improving characters and there are by-the-book guidelines for
how it is acquired. Let bad karma be an extension of the good karma mechanic.

1) you get a point of good karma for 'completing' the mission. You don't get
a point of good karma for not completing the mission. You get a point of bad
karma for totally fragging up the mission.

2) you get a point of good karma for good roleplaying. You don't get a point
of good karma for no roleplaying. You get a point of bad karma for bad
roleplaying.

et cetera et cetera.

Bad karma cancels any accumulated good karma, every 10th point of bad karma
reduces the personal karma pool [for those lucky enough to get one].
Accumulated bad karma reduces attributes and skills in the sam way that good
karma can be used to increase them.

I'm a by-the-book type so I wouldn't use bad karma for the same reason that
I wouldn't change the firearm ranges to make them 'more realistic'. I just
want to point out that karma is a GAME MECHANIC that has no implications for
playing style beyond what already exists. Terry

Terry L. Amburgey Email: xanth@***.uky.edu
Associate Professor Phone: (606) 257-7726
College of Business and Economics Fax: (606) 257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506-0034
Message no. 4
From: Mike Kinnan <makst44+@****.edu>
Subject: Re: In defense of Bad Karma
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 14:01:48 -0400 (EDT)
<SNIP>
On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Terry L. Amburgey wrote:
>
>
> How about a take on 'bad karma' that has nothing to do with morality and
> thus works both with goodie-two-shoes groups and psycho-splatterpunk groups:
> bad karma is a mechanic based on the same criteria as good karma.
>
> Good karma has nothing to dow with morality or luck, its the shadowrun game
> mechanic for improving characters and there are by-the-book guidelines for
> how it is acquired. Let bad karma be an extension of the good karma mechanic.

This is a much better system IMHO. I'm guessing that most GMs already do
this to a large extent without the "bad karma" statistic. If you feel
more comfortable implimenting such a mechanic though, go for it...

> 1) you get a point of good karma for 'completing' the mission. You don't get
> a point of good karma for not completing the mission. You get a point of bad
> karma for totally fragging up the mission.

I've never had a run where the players have totally screwed the pooch, so
I guess that I'd never have had reason for awarding a "bad karma" point.
Not completing the mission though certainly results in attaining less
karma then completing the mission.

> 2) you get a point of good karma for good roleplaying. You don't get a point
> of good karma for no roleplaying. You get a point of bad karma for bad
> roleplaying.

This probably is the most useful for a bad karma system. I've on
occasion subtracted from a runners karma for totally shitty roleplaying,
or using game mechanics as a basis for making a decision. Once again
though, I find it easier to just tell the runner he lost a karma pont
than to add to a bad karma pool. This might be useful to keep a running
tab of how much karma a character has lost to date. How this would
effect the game, I'm not sure- how do you penalize a character for bad
role playi? And how does this differ with how he is penalized if he does
this consistantly (in other words a high bad karma pool)? If I could
find a way to make this number make a difference I would possibly use
it.

> et cetera et cetera. >
> Bad karma cancels any accumulated good karma, every 10th point of bad karma
> reduces the personal karma pool [for those lucky enough to get one].
> Accumulated bad karma reduces attributes and skills in the sam way that good
> karma can be used to increase them.
>
This has the bad point of how does my player's shitty roleplayer justify
dropping his strength from a 3 to a 2? The flip side to this of course
is how does my runners strength increase based on good roleplaying
skills? I guess this could be a good penalty. Dunno...

Overall I like this system much better than the moral code system
suggested, probably because I've never been one with many/any morals
myself:).

--------------------------------------------------------------------
\ Mike Kinnan (makst44+@****.edu) \
\__________________ Hitch-hiking on the information superhighway!\
\Win in you can, \ The true definition of champions: Joe Sakic, \
\Lose if you must,\ Mike Ricci, Patrick Roy, Adam Foote, and the \
\But always cheat!\ remainder of the Colorado Avalanche. \
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: In defense of Bad Karma
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 15:28:52 -0400 (EDT)
At 01:10 PM 8/6/96 -0400, Terry wrote:

>Bad karma cancels any accumulated good karma, every 10th point of bad karma
>reduces the personal karma pool [for those lucky enough to get one].
>Accumulated bad karma reduces attributes and skills in the sam way that good
>karma can be used to increase them.

Finally! Something concrete instead of the vague "Uh, something bad
happens!" answer I've been getting from someone.

That's an interesting idea, except if you look at some the Karma award
sections in the modules, there are already penalties figured in, doubly so
if you count not getting the points for succeeding, so in addition to the
"shot Ork kid" penalty, you miss out on the "Rescue Ork kid from bad
guy"
points. It's
all superfluous.


--
"I dyde shyte thre grete toordes." Fables of Aesop,
Caxton translation,
V15 1484
Message no. 6
From: Mike and Jill Johnson <shadow@*****.com>
Subject: Re: In defense of Bad Karma
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 15:58:24 -0600
At 11:43 AM 8/6/96 Mike Kinna, dazzled us with:

<snip snip>

>> Bad karma cancels any accumulated good karma, every 10th point of bad karma
>> reduces the personal karma pool [for those lucky enough to get one].
>> Accumulated bad karma reduces attributes and skills in the sam way that good
>> karma can be used to increase them.
>>
>This has the bad point of how does my player's shitty roleplayer justify
>dropping his strength from a 3 to a 2? The flip side to this of course
>is how does my runners strength increase based on good roleplaying
>skills? I guess this could be a good penalty. Dunno...
>

How about, you have to spend a point of "good" karma to get rid of a point
of "bad" karma, before you can up-grade your skills or get a new skill. So
in a sence, your buying off your mistakes.

Tis a thought....


Jill
Who can kill a thread just be responding to it. :>
Message no. 7
From: rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Ahzmandius)
Subject: Re: In defense of Bad Karma
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 19:34:26 -0600 (CST)
Terry wrote:
>How about a take on 'bad karma' that has nothing to do with morality and
>thus works both with goodie-two-shoes groups and psycho-splatterpunk groups:
>bad karma is a mechanic based on the same criteria as good karma.
>
>Good karma has nothing to dow with morality or luck, its the shadowrun game
>mechanic for improving characters and there are by-the-book guidelines for
>how it is acquired. Let bad karma be an extension of the good karma mechanic.
>
>1) you get a point of good karma for 'completing' the mission. You don't get
>a point of good karma for not completing the mission. You get a point of bad
>karma for totally fragging up the mission.
>
>2) you get a point of good karma for good roleplaying. You don't get a point
>of good karma for no roleplaying. You get a point of bad karma for bad
>roleplaying.
>
>et cetera et cetera.
>
>Bad karma cancels any accumulated good karma, every 10th point of bad karma
>reduces the personal karma pool [for those lucky enough to get one].
>Accumulated bad karma reduces attributes and skills in the sam way that good
>karma can be used to increase them.
>
>I'm a by-the-book type so I wouldn't use bad karma for the same reason that
>I wouldn't change the firearm ranges to make them 'more realistic'. I just
>want to point out that karma is a GAME MECHANIC that has no implications for
>playing style beyond what already exists. Terry

actually bad karma is not a stat, mechanic, etc. It is a roleplaying tool.
We all agree that we don't want more paperwork getting in the way of fun,
but maybe we can use it like a rep thing for spirits, etc.

Ahz
Message no. 8
From: rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Ahzmandius)
Subject: Re: In defense of Bad Karma
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 19:34:21 -0600 (CST)
If you want a villian to be surrounded by an astral stink of decadence
>and villany, do it. If you feel that a PC's soul has been marked by their
lack of
>compassion, have it show in their aura. If you try to create hard and fast
rules
>for it, though, players will simply munchkinize it.
>
I whole heartily agree with you. This is not a stat, but a gm roleplaying
tool. You may go further if desired, but that is not the main idea.


Ahzmandius
>
>
Message no. 9
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: In defense of Bad Karma
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 11:08:07 +0100
Terry L. Amburgey said on 13:10/ 6 Aug 96...

> Bad karma cancels any accumulated good karma, every 10th point of bad karma
> reduces the personal karma pool [for those lucky enough to get one].
> Accumulated bad karma reduces attributes and skills in the sam way that good
> karma can be used to increase them.

That's what I thought of too, but how would you implicate it? Decrease
the highest skill by 1 when the charcter has a number of points of Bad
Karma equal to the number of Good Karma needed to increase that skill by
1? (For example, a general skill at rating 4 would be reduced by 1 if the
character has 10 Bad Karma points.) That would make the game almost
impossible for characters with low skill levels...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Back to the known.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
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Message no. 10
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: In defense of Bad Karma
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 11:08:07 +0100
Mike Elkins said on 11:51/ 6 Aug 96...

> Characters who perform great deeds are already rewarded with
> advancement (in the form of karma). This is very common in RPGs, but
> inherently unrealistic.

This is not entirely correct. In SR, you get Karma for completing
adventure objectives -- I don't think anybody ever said anything about
the "alignment" (to use that term :) of those objectives. If one of the
objectives of an adventure is to make sure the football stadium gets
utterly blown up with 10,000 innocent people inside, and the players pull
it off, they should get the Karma for completing an adventure goal. They
don't have to like what they did, though.

To put this another way: none of the Karma awards in SR is for "Doing The
Right Thing."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Back to the known.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
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Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 11
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: In defense of Bad Karma
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 12:24:27 GMT + 2:00
@ > Bad karma cancels any accumulated good karma, every 10th point of bad karma
@
@ > reduces the personal karma pool [for those lucky enough to get one].
@ > Accumulated bad karma reduces attributes and skills in the sam way that goo
@ d
@ > karma can be used to increase them.
@
@ That's what I thought of too, but how would you implicate it? Decrease
@ the highest skill by 1 when the charcter has a number of points of Bad
@ Karma equal to the number of Good Karma needed to increase that skill by
@ 1? (For example, a general skill at rating 4 would be reduced by 1 if the
@ character has 10 Bad Karma points.) That would make the game almost
@ impossible for characters with low skill levels...

Howabout reducing the number of dice rolled, effect things like
charisma based rolls and skills with pools. There again skills that
*might* be related to the characters most common reason for Bad Karma
could be raised or used for a new skill like 'Torture', 'Distrust' or
'Violent Rage' etc ;)

My $0.00002
Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to face the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 12
From: rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Ahzmandius)
Subject: Re: In defense of Bad Karma
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 08:27:26 -0600 (CST)
>That's what I thought of too, but how would you implicate it? Decrease
>the highest skill by 1 when the charcter has a number of points of Bad
>Karma equal to the number of Good Karma needed to increase that skill by
>1? (For example, a general skill at rating 4 would be reduced by 1 if the
>character has 10 Bad Karma points.) That would make the game almost
>impossible for characters with low skill levels...
>
A ramification of too much bad karma (to be defined by the individual
groups) would be that the character might start getting attacked by normally
benevolent(i kant spel rite now) spirits, or, if the character is a
mage/shaman, a conjured ally might not be as effective due to the spirits
unwillingness to help. A toxic shaman might benifit from a high bad karma
aura. Bad Karma is not a statistic, it is a gm perception of a character.
Example:

Kato is a shark shaman, a grade 4 initiate. To date he has killed 75 people
because "They pissed me off". The gm decides that Kato has accumulated a lot
of bad karma (no numerical measure is needed) and, thru a npc, communicates
the idea that maybe he should stop. Kato vehemently refuses to concider it.
The next time Kato crosses the path with a city spirit, the spirit ignores
the rest of the party and concentrates on Kato. This is an exaple of how it
is roleplayed rather than calculated. Kato then quests to "right his wrongs"
by devoting himself to protecting the stupid and eventually the "black
splotches" on his aura dwindle.

Ahz
Message no. 13
From: rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Ahzmandius)
Subject: Re: In defense of Bad Karma
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 08:27:28 -0600 (CST)
Andre wrote:
> Howabout reducing the number of dice rolled, effect things like
>charisma based rolls and skills with pools. There again skills that
>*might* be related to the characters most common reason for Bad Karma
>could be raised or used for a new skill like 'Torture', 'Distrust' or
>'Violent Rage' etc ;)
>
That is more on the lines of what I was thinking. I would, however, just
raise target numbers for charisma based skills, and lowering them for the
'torture' etc.

Ahz
Message no. 14
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: In defense of Bad Karma
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 08:07:12 +1000 (EST)
[snip anti-KPool rant]

> the consequences of their actions through roleplaying. Yet
> if a character does something "good", or succeeds, they get
> more points for their Karma Pool. They can then use their
> Karma Pool to overcome insurmountable odds, defying random
> chance and fate. Sure, it creates a great cinematic/heroic
> effect. But it changes the nature of the game. When the

I tend to see it as not an accumulation of the good things you've done,
but the experiences and the shit that you've suffered ie your experience
tells you NOW IS A REALLY GOOD TIME TO DODGE THAT GUY WITH THE BIG
SWORD-THINGY. and so forth. It can be looked at as experience-granted
"luck", sort of... if you follow me...

You know, how people really good at what they do always make really hard
stuff look easy? This is sort of the SR version, I think...

Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
"There are worse things than death...
and I can do all of them." - The Plague
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------

Further Reading

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