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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (MC23)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 08:50:01 2001
Once Upon A Time Jonathan wrote,

>> Funny. Sun-Tzu wrote the Art of War so that leaders may fight and win
>> wars, not run away from them.
>
>The best fought war is the war avoided.

So what is the loss of up to 5,000 lives from one strike? What is
the proper action? Why is guilt over actions of out ancestors supposed to
paralyze us now? This thread is sickening me.
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (John Smith)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 09:05:01 2001
<html><div style='background-color:'><PRE>I have a single question for
'shadowrun' before I reply... I hope he </PRE><PRE>will be so good as to
humor me and answer again, as I know he has </PRE><PRE>answered this question
previously in his first mail.</PRE><PRE>[I did not bother to save it]
</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE><PRE>What country is it again that you
hail from?</PRE><PRE>[Normally I don't take note, but for the purpose of my
reply, </PRE><PRE>yes, it
matters.]</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE><PRE>Lepper.</PRE></div><br
clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a
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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 09:45:01 2001
Not suppose to paralyze you but you are suppose to learn from them. From
other boards where I chat do you wanna know what the most common outcry was?

"Nuke all of those arabs!"

People are in such a rush to use nukes or go to war. Hell you haven't even
identified the actual terroist band yet foreign people are suffering because
the chief suspect is ben laden. Now the arab people who live in america who
probably lost friends/relatives in the same damn tragedy are being harrased
for being from the same culture.

That's what makes me sick. So I'm sorry if I'm bashing your bloodthirst but
I hate war and I hate violence. And violence only begets more violence. It
has NEVER solved anything, in most cases its only made it worse.


----- Original Message -----
From: "MC23" <mc23@**********.com>
To: "ShadowRN" <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: in defense of the devil


> Once Upon A Time Jonathan wrote,
>
> >> Funny. Sun-Tzu wrote the Art of War so that leaders may fight and win
> >> wars, not run away from them.
> >
> >The best fought war is the war avoided.
>
> So what is the loss of up to 5,000 lives from one strike? What is
> the proper action? Why is guilt over actions of out ancestors supposed to
> paralyze us now? This thread is sickening me.
>
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (John Smith)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 10:00:01 2001
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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<html><div style='background-color:'><PRE>Gotta love those
archives.&nbsp; Nevermind, my friend, I found it.</PRE><PRE>I believe you
said you hail from South Africa... I did a little<BR>checking and I'd like to point
out something easilly found in the<BR>CIA World Factbook.</PRE><PRE>It's
quite an interesting site, and I'm not sure why I haven't<BR>looked at it
before.</PRE><PRE><A
href="http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sf.html">http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sf.html</A></PRE><PRE>That
would be the link to the page on South Africa.</PRE><PRE>Anyways, somewhere
near the bottom you'll find an entry entitled<BR>Economic
Aid.</PRE><PRE>recipient: $676.3 million</PRE><PRE>Bear in mind
this is ONLY a financial reckoning which does not <BR>account for services rendered
or even donations from individuals <BR>or private groups within the US or other
nations.</PRE><PRE>While I will certainly not be so rude or false as to say
that this<BR>entire ammount is the result of my country's efforts, I would
like<BR>to point out that a rather large sum of it is.&nbsp; Had the US not
been<BR>so horribly 'rude' as to 'interfere' in your country's own well-being,
<BR>I doubt that it would have recieved such a nice [if not round]
ammount.</PRE><PRE>Should you care to wander around the site a bit more, I'm
sure you can <BR>find all sorts of other wonderful instances where the US and other
<BR>countries have 'interfered' in similar manners to
this.</PRE><PRE>Happy reading.<BR>Lepper.</PRE></div><br
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<html><div style='background-color:'><PRE>I have a single question for
'shadowrun' before I reply... I hope he </PRE><PRE>will be so good as to
humor me and answer again, as I know he has </PRE><PRE>answered this question
previously in his first mail.</PRE><PRE>[I did not bother to save it]
</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE><PRE>What country is it again that you
hail from?</PRE><PRE>[Normally I don't take note, but for the purpose of my
reply, </PRE><PRE>yes, it
matters.]</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE><PRE>Lepper.</PRE></div><br
clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a
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------=_NextPart_000_57e3_7e1c_2a04--
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (MC23)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 10:10:01 2001
Once Upon A Time Jonathan wrote,

>Not suppose to paralyze you but you are suppose to learn from them. From
>other boards where I chat do you wanna know what the most common outcry was?
>
>"Nuke all of those arabs!"
>
>People are in such a rush to use nukes or go to war. Hell you haven't even
>identified the actual terroist band yet foreign people are suffering because
>the chief suspect is ben laden. Now the arab people who live in america who
>probably lost friends/relatives in the same damn tragedy are being harrased
>for being from the same culture.

What is this country's current policy? What is this country reacting
to? We are foremost dealing with the tragedy and secondly trying to
clearly identify the source. This country is not being lead by a bunch of
loud mouthed people on message boards.
I have friends from Lebanon. I understand the situation in the
Mideast. I know this attack was by a small minority and not a nationality.

>That's what makes me sick. So I'm sorry if I'm bashing your bloodthirst but
>I hate war and I hate violence. And violence only begets more violence. It
>has NEVER solved anything, in most cases its only made it worse.

I am upset you would bash a whole country for the actions of a few.
I am sorry you think violence has never solved anything. You must live in
a much nicer world than I have.
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (John Smith)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 10:40:01 2001
<html><div style='background-color:'><PRE>'Jonathan'
wrote--<BR>&gt;Not suppose to paralyze you but you are suppose to learn from
them. </PRE><PRE>I believe we have.&nbsp; We've learned that ignoring the
attacks of <BR>terrorists and responding with only minimal force results in more
<BR>forceful, if delayed, attacks from
terrorists.</PRE><PRE><BR>&gt;From<BR>&gt;other boards
where I chat do you wanna know what the most common outcry
was?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;"Nuke all of those
arabs!"</PRE><PRE>I find that extremely sad, however this is not a board
run by <BR>children, and we have kept our outrage to minimal levels
considering,<BR>and I have yet to hear a single person here say any such things
along <BR>those lines.&nbsp; Had someone said such a thing, I could see it's
place <BR>in this argument.&nbsp; As we have all expressed outcries to the
contrary,<BR>it seems as either an instance of you 'preaching to the converted'
or<BR>merely a rather hateful attempt at a stereotype of the American
people.</PRE><PRE>&gt;People are in such a rush to use nukes or go to war.
Hell you haven't even<BR>&gt;identified the actual terroist band yet foreign
people are suffering because<BR>&gt;the chief suspect is ben laden. Now the arab
people who live in america who<BR>&gt;probably lost friends/relatives in the
same damn tragedy are being harrased<BR>&gt;for being from the same
culture.</PRE><PRE>Actually they have several reliable sources of info
pointing directly to<BR>him, and possibly several other terrorist organizations
working in <BR>conjunction.&nbsp; But then again, you'll notice that the US
officially hasn't<BR>DONE anything yet.&nbsp; As for the threats and attacks
against those of Arabic<BR>or Middle Eastern descent...&nbsp; see my comment on
the last part.&nbsp; All of it<BR>still
applies.</PRE><PRE>&gt;That's what makes me sick. So I'm sorry if I'm
bashing your bloodthirst but<BR>&gt;I hate war and I hate violence. And violence
only begets more violence. It<BR>&gt;has NEVER solved anything, in most cases
its only made it worse.</PRE><PRE>Be sick of it all you want.&nbsp; Bash
my 'bloodthirst' if you ever see any.<BR>Hate war and violence all you wish, so do
I.&nbsp; Violence is indeed a <BR>horrible thing which creates more of its
own.&nbsp; Then agaian, my country<BR>isnt the one ramming planes full of
passengers into large structures <BR>filled with men, women, and children.&nbsp;
Not acting out against it will <BR>guarantee more attacks of this nature, I assure
you.</PRE><PRE>And to all of those who are so concerned with the US dabbling
in foreign<BR>affars and its treatment of Israel being the main cause of it's
<BR>victimization by Bin Lauden, I would like to draw your attention to
the<BR>'man' himself, and his own statements.</PRE><PRE>His beef with
the US is that we are stationed in his native country.<BR>Saudi Arabia.&nbsp;
Nevermind the fact that we are there to keep Iraq off Saudi <BR>soil, or that it is
at the request of the Saudi government or the UN... <BR>he's unhappy because we're
there.</PRE><PRE>Why would he be so unhappy?&nbsp; Both he and his family
are as corrupt as <BR>they come.&nbsp; They are far richer than many of the
American Devils he <BR>claims to hate so much, and they got that way through many
direct ties<BR>to the leaders [both past and present] of the government.&nbsp;
With<BR>Americans there it's not as easy to conduct his 'business. Take a look
<BR>at his life.&nbsp; He's no religous fanatic... he's just a greedy man,
<BR>displaced from his home by his own viscous actions in the name of
more<BR>profit and the wish to keep his own status
quo.</PRE><PRE>Lepper.</PRE></div><br
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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (L. Christopher Paul)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 10:40:06 2001
At 11:15 AM 9/14/2001 -02-30, you wrote:
>That's what makes me sick. So I'm sorry if I'm bashing your bloodthirst but
>I hate war and I hate violence. And violence only begets more violence. It
>has NEVER solved anything, in most cases its only made it worse.

"He was opposed to the use of force. Force, he believed, was the last
resort of incompetence; he had said so frequently enough since this
operation had begun. Of course, he was absolutely right, though not in the
way he meant. Only the incompetent wait until the last extremity to use
force, and by then, it is usually too late to use anything, even prayer."
-- H. Beam Piper,
"A Slave is a Slave"

I'm sorry that you "hate war and hate violence," but answer me this: If I
call someone who only speaks, say, some obscure aboriginal dialect and I,
being the monoglot American that I am try and speak English to them, are
they going to understand? What if I speak more slowly? How about louder?
Are they going ot understand?

Of course not. I have to use a language that they understand. In this
instance it may very well turn out that violence is that language.

I'm reminded of someone whose boyfriend used to knock her around. Until
some friends of hers found out about it and took him back around back of
the barn and explained to him in no uncertain terms what it felt like to
have someone else's anger taken out on you.

Violence works. If it didn't, it wouldn't be so popular. It is a fact of
life that the stronger prey upon the weak. Look to nature if you don't
believe me.

America either looked or became weak and as a result we were attacked. It's
not necessarily our fault, but it is our responsibility to deal with it.

But our response must be swift, it must be sure and it must be complete.
Not only do we as a nation and hopefully as a civilized international
community need to take retribution upon those who have enabled these
animals to perpetrate this atrocity, but to eliminate the possibility of
this ever happening again; not only in America, but in any other place --
including sheltered St. John's, NF, CA.

That spectrum of the political landscape must not only be destroyed, but
sown with salt so that nothing can grow there for the next thousand years.
The cost of terror must be an even greater terror. If the punishment fits
the crime, then there will always be those who think it an acceptable
trade. Just as these people gave their life.

The response must be so overwhelming as to be unthinkable. The cost of
terror must be far greater than the damage it causes or it will not deter
future violence. The dog is rabid and needs to be shot. Not out of
vengeance, hatred or fear; but because it's too dangerous let him live any
more.

Operation Old Yeller begins now.

Please note that I am speaking of individuals being wiped out based on
their actions, not people groups being attacked because of their beliefs. I
bear no ill-will toward any religious ideology. There are insane people in
any group and an idea is not responsible for those who choose to believe in it.

BTW, Jonathan, if you abhor violence so much, isn't this a strange place
for you to be hanging out? Or do your SR campaigns consist of a group of
meta-humans running around planting flowers?
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 10:55:18 2001
On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:46:36 -0400
MC23 <mc23@**********.com> wrote:

> Once Upon A Time Jonathan wrote,
>
> >> Funny. Sun-Tzu wrote the Art of War so that leaders may fight and win
> >> wars, not run away from them.
> >
> >The best fought war is the war avoided.
>
> So what is the loss of up to 5,000 lives from one strike? What is
> the proper action? Why is guilt over actions of out ancestors supposed to
> paralyze us now? This thread is sickening me.

No one is saying you're supposed to sit and do nothing. What everyone is saying is
that a war _is_not_ the best way to deal with this.

--
Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://www.shadowland.com.br
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.f2s.com
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 11:05:01 2001
> I'm sorry that you "hate war and hate violence," but answer me this: If I
> call someone who only speaks, say, some obscure aboriginal dialect and I,
> being the monoglot American that I am try and speak English to them, are
> they going to understand? What if I speak more slowly? How about louder?
> Are they going ot understand?
>
> Of course not. I have to use a language that they understand. In this
> instance it may very well turn out that violence is that language.
>
> I'm reminded of someone whose boyfriend used to knock her around. Until
> some friends of hers found out about it and took him back around back of
> the barn and explained to him in no uncertain terms what it felt like to
> have someone else's anger taken out on you.
>
> Violence works. If it didn't, it wouldn't be so popular. It is a fact of
> life that the stronger prey upon the weak. Look to nature if you don't
> believe me.
>

Violence is only popular because it's easy. Everyone LOVES the easy route.
Ever consider why the boyfriend was knocking his girlfriend about? His own
personal demons? Ever consider he ALREADY knew what it was like? No course
not, rather than help him you beat the shit out of him. Way to go. Violence
solved a problem alright.

Let me ask, when he lost that last shred of himself when he realized he had
become what he most likely hated most, did he commit suicide? Or did your
"inspirational" chat set him on the proper road? Now he has a nice wife he
treats just right with a couple of darling kids...

I'm betting the former. If not option 3 where he still believes violence
makes the world goes round and is finding a new target away from you and
your backup...

> America either looked or became weak and as a result we were attacked.
It's
> not necessarily our fault, but it is our responsibility to deal with it.

America has NEVER looked or became weak. Slack maybe in defense about
keeping hijackers off planes but there will ALWAYS be new methods. Plastic
guns what have you.

>
> But our response must be swift, it must be sure and it must be complete.
> Not only do we as a nation and hopefully as a civilized international
> community need to take retribution upon those who have enabled these
> animals to perpetrate this atrocity, but to eliminate the possibility of
> this ever happening again; not only in America, but in any other place --
> including sheltered St. John's, NF, CA.
>

But it will happen again regardless. Welcome to human nature and violence
101.

> BTW, Jonathan, if you abhor violence so much, isn't this a strange place
> for you to be hanging out? Or do your SR campaigns consist of a group of
> meta-humans running around planting flowers?
>

SR is just a game. There are no lives lost, no huge truamas(sp?). There is
no sadness when a character "dies". His "hit points" reach zero and is
erased. There is no pleasure or regret when you tell your GM you are gunning
down the patrons of a bank. There is only game turns and results. The game
is either won or lost, if you lose, you spend a few minutes drawing up a new
character and throw the others sheet in the trash.

If you can't tell the difference between real life violence and
pretend...it's time you see a shrink.
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 11:35:01 2001
At 11:49 AM 9/14/2001 -0300, Bira wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:46:36 -0400
>MC23 <mc23@**********.com> wrote:
>
> > Once Upon A Time Jonathan wrote,
> >
> > >> Funny. Sun-Tzu wrote the Art of War so that leaders may fight and win
> > >> wars, not run away from them.
> > >
> > >The best fought war is the war avoided.
> >
> > So what is the loss of up to 5,000 lives from one strike? What is
> > the proper action? Why is guilt over actions of out ancestors supposed to
> > paralyze us now? This thread is sickening me.
>
> No one is saying you're supposed to sit and do nothing. What
> everyone is saying is that a war _is_not_ the best way to deal with this.

I agree. I wish the terrorist who used commercial airline planes to bomb
the WTC and the Pentagon hadn't declared war on the US. But the simple
fact is is that the terrorists did start this war and the United States
must defend itself. If the most powerful nation in the world does not
defend itself, that gives terrorists everywhere a green light to continue
to use terrorist attacks on civilian targets to pursue their goals.

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 12:25:07 2001
At 10:38 14.09.2001 -0400, L. Christopher Paul wrote:

<snip>

>BTW, Jonathan, if you abhor violence so much, isn't this a strange place
>for you to be hanging out? Or do your SR campaigns consist of a group of
>meta-humans running around planting flowers?

Role-playing something does in no way include that you accept/like/do it in
RL what you roleplay.

Arclight
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Christopher Paul)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 12:50:01 2001
>Violence is only popular because it's easy. Everyone LOVES
>the easy route.

Personal violence is easy in that is comes quickly. But there is a difference between that
and institutional violence. When a man goes to war under his nation's flag he should not
be angry, this should not be a personal afront. It is something that he must do because he
of who he is and his desire to defend and protect his country, his family and his own
personal honor.

This was an act of war and must be treated as such.

>Ever consider why the boyfriend was knocking his
>girlfriend about? His own
>personal demons? Ever consider he ALREADY knew what it was >like?

I suppose that it's a possiblilty that he was abused as a child. Just as I supposed that
you may have been. That would certainly explain your aversion to any kind of strong
action.

But please note that I stressed that these things must be done not out of anger or fear
but out of reasoning and judgement and that it is being applied in the same way that a
parent might apply correction to the hand of a child in order to prevent them from
grabbing a shiny red hot burner on a stove.

Or from running around with a stick and hitting the other children on the playground.

>No course not, rather than help him you beat the
>shit out of him. Way to go. Violence
>solved a problem alright.

BZZZTTT! Wrong answer. Never touched him. As a matter of fact I didn't know him and have
never seen or met him. You're making assumptions there. Re-read what I wrote and try
again.

>Or did your
>"inspirational" chat set him on the proper road? Now he >has a nice wife
he
>treats just right with a couple of darling kids...

All I know for sure is that he never hit _her_ again. If we can't or won't protect the
people that are around us then we have become as evil as those whose recent actions have
caused so much pain.

>I'm betting the former. If not option 3 where he still >blieves violence
>makes the world goes round and is finding a new target >away from you and
>your backup...

Here's a hint: You can't save the whole world. You can save your little corner of it.
There have to be things in this world that are off-limits and things for which there is
nothing but sure and swift retribution. Period.

What do you suggest we use in dealing with this issues, harsh language? Or do you think
that someone like an Osama bin Laden is willing to take a "time-out" and sit in
the corner of Afganistan for a while.

I've heard you go on about what's wrong with violence, but so far haven't seen you present
an alternative. There is a time and a place for talk, for reasoning, for working things
out. When that fails, there has to be something else or the talk means *nothing* and is
simple another noise.

Please note again that I am not talking about individuals, I am talking about an
institutional response.

>America has NEVER looked or became weak. Slack maybe in >defense about
>keeping hijackers off planes but there will ALWAYS be new >methods. Plastic
>guns what have you.

You've just made my point for me, thank you.

There can never be a way to physically prevent this sort of thing from happening. So there
must be certain and sure judgement brought upon these people so that the mere thought of
trying such a thing strikes such fear that is provides a deterent; so that the accomplises
who did not have the courage of their convictions to be on the plane and die will
understand that aiding and abetting this type of thing will bring nothing but sure and
swift destruction... so that when approached to help on the next such polot they
understand that the only response is to cry "NO!"

>But it will happen again regardless. Welcome to human >nature and violence 101.

It will. And it is our responsibility to make sure that a) it happens as infrequently as
possible b) that those behind it are punished and c) that when it does happen that it does
not ever approach this level.

But tell me this: Which do you think will have more of an effect, if we wreck overwhelming
vengeance on those responsible for this tradegy or if we concede to their wishes and
withdrawl from Saudi Arabia and denouce any friendship with Isreal?

Which one of those actions is going to show them that terrorism is unacceptable and that
they can not and must not attack the United States or any other sovriegn nation?

Try giving your dog a treat and telling him "Good boy" next time he shits on the
floor and see how that works.

>SR is just a game

<sarcasm>
What? You can't see that the violent culture that we live in is what actually breeds
violence? That we are training our children through movies, games and music that violence
does work and that it is an acceptable solution to problems.

Or are you saying that what we think and the things that we as people put our time and
energy into have absolutely no effect on what we do?
</sarcasm>

Think about it. It is a game, I do know the difference, but I find your position on the
two issues a bit hypocritical.

>If you can't tell the difference between real life
>violence and pretend...it's time you see a shrink.

Trust me, I know more about real life and real violence than I care to... When was the
last time that you had a man convicted of three murders pull a knife on you and threaten
to drive it into your belly?

He was not mis-understood. He did not need counseling. He did not need to stand around in
a group and sing "Kumbaya." There are those among us who have crossed the line
between being reasonable human beings and something less. Something far more evil. They
need to be dealt with in order to protect those who are morally opposed to violence.

Please do not pretend to lecture me on real life. I've enough of it now, thank you.

___________________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Holly Feray)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 13:20:01 2001
> So what is the loss of up to 5,000 lives from one strike? What
> is
> the proper action? Why is guilt over actions of out ancestors
> supposed to
> paralyze us now?

Hell No!


This thread is sickening me.

As it is for the rest of the compassasionate humans. Let the barbarians
wallow in their delusions and stupidity.
>

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Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Holly Feray)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 13:20:32 2001
Ok Johnathan, but the woman I heard yesterday on the radio here in
Houston, Texas has a point too and I would like to share it with all of
you. She compared this act to that of a school yard bully. They beat ya
up and beat ya up and beat your friends and others up until they learn
what it is they have received a beating themselves. Only then do most
bullies cease aggression. When murder replaces a beating you act
precisely and in kind. The delivery should be expedient, focused, and
meticulous so as to set an example. This kind of unfortunately necessary
example might just save us all from experiencing similar things in the
future. Oh and Johnathan as others have pointed out the U.S.A. has been
kicked in the teeth and kicked in the teeth and kicked in the teeth
and... Now the weapon is better and we've taken a bullet wound to the
lung. Would you see us lay down and die from this? Is that what you
desire? Think before you write blind words, when blind words is where
this all began.

For we are not war mongers, far from it, budget cuts on military spending
happen all the time over here, we aid countries in need all the time, we
defend those who ask for help (sometimes we are cautious or even possibly
scared and do not act soon enough ie. Hitler), we do not always make the
right decisions in who to defend, but who does as we are all human.


Holly

> That's what makes me sick. So I'm sorry if I'm bashing your
> bloodthirst but
> I hate war and I hate violence. And violence only begets more
> violence. It
> has NEVER solved anything, in most cases its only made it worse.
>
>
> -
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Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lubzens Opher)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 14:25:01 2001
bira wrote:
>The average Palestinian probably thinks Israel wouldn't be so agressive
>and territorial if they hadn't stocked up so much on the hardware. From
>what I can glimpse from the news, they have the reputation of being the
>local bullies <snip>
Bira, from all the accounts I read of Camp-David Israel offered the
palestinians about everything that we possibly could offer them while
maintaining our country, think how, if to use an SR example, the US would
have reacted if the Amerinds would have said: "we want you all to go back
to Europe, otherwise there will be no treaty", that's about the signal we
are getting from the Palestinians. Yes, we are somewhat agressive and I
can't say I agree with everything the current PM does(allmost nothing he
does strikes me as right), but we offered a peacefull hand and they damn
near bit it off, so please, don't start thinking they are snowwhite and we
are coal black(morrally speaking) we both are gray.


Opher Lubzens
-every light casts shadows
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Holly Feray)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 14:25:16 2001
> Violence is only popular because it's easy. Everyone LOVES the easy
> route.
> Ever consider why the boyfriend was knocking his girlfriend about?
> His own
> personal demons? Ever consider he ALREADY knew what it was like? No
> course
> not, rather than help him you beat the shit out of him. Way to go.
> Violence
> solved a problem alright.


As a person with some degreed psychological know how...

At a point a person commits MURDER, rape or any other violent crime they
are reported to the authorities. They are taken in and prosecuted and
sentenced. (in this case mass murder and terrorism, decided by a jury
of their peers, hmmmmm, lets see, I think they would receive the death
penalty, do you agree?) many of these criminals like rapists, serial
murderers, wife beaters, have high recidivism rates and are deemed
incurable after having had many attempts made to heal or cure them. Some
people who have just cause for mental instability are still violent
criminals and ARE unrecoverable and will continue to remain a threat to
society and most humanly should stand and take the punishment their crime
deems appropriate and get on with being judged, karmaed, or reincarnated
as appropriate to their next or after life.


>
> > America either looked or became weak and as a result we were
> attacked.
> It's
> > not necessarily our fault, but it is our responsibility to deal
> with it.
>
> America has NEVER looked or became weak.

There is always a first time for everything and that is not a thing any
American wants to see happen.

.
> >
>
> But it will happen again regardless.

But appropriate actions will waylay the heck out people who will dain to
think about doing so especially in such a grand fashion anytime soon.

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Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Holly Feray)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 14:25:23 2001
> I'm...
> future violence. The dog is rabid and needs to be shot. Not out of
> vengeance, hatred or fear; but because it's too dangerous let him
> live any
> more.
>
> Operation Old Yeller begins now.
>
> Please note that I am speaking of individuals being wiped out based
> on
> their actions, not people groups being attacked because of their
> beliefs. I
> bear no ill-will toward any religious ideology. There are insane
> people in
> any group and an idea is not responsible for those who choose to
> believe in it.

Most spectacular. Well spoken!




> BTW, Jonathan, if you abhor violence so much, isn't this a strange
> place
> for you to be hanging out? Or do your SR campaigns consist of a
> group of
> meta-humans running around planting flowers?

and damn funny!

Holly

>
>
>

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Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Holly Feray)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 14:25:31 2001
Tres bien! Excellent and once again well spoken! I concur.

Holly


>
> >No course not, rather than help him you beat the
> >shit out of him. Way to go. Violence
> >solved a problem alright.
>
> BZZZTTT! Wrong answer. Never touched him. As a matter of fact I
> didn't know him and have never seen or met him. You're making
> assumptions there. Re-read what I wrote and try again.
>
> >Or did your
> >"inspirational" chat set him on the proper road? Now he >has a nice
> wife he
> >treats just right with a couple of darling kids...
>
> All I know for sure is that he never hit _her_ again. If we can't or
> won't protect the people that are around us then we have become as
> evil as those whose recent actions have caused so much pain.
>
> >I'm betting the former. If not option 3 where he still >blieves
> violence
> >makes the world goes round and is finding a new target >away from
> you and
> >your backup...
>
> Here's a hint: You can't save the whole world. You can save your
> l...retribution. Period.
>
> What do you suggest we use in dealing with this issues, harsh
> language? Or do you think that someone like an Osama bin Laden is
> willing to take a "time-out" and sit in the corner of Afganistan for
> a while.
>
> I've heard you go on about what's wrong with violence, but so far
> haven't seen you present an alternative. There is a time and a place
> for talk, for reasoning, for working things out. When that fails,
> there has to be something else or the talk means *nothing* and is
> simple another noise.
>
> Please note again that I am not talking about individuals, I am
> talking about an institutional response.
>
> >America has NEVER looked or became weak. Slack maybe in >defense
> about
> >keeping hijackers off planes but there will ALWAYS be new >methods.
> Plastic
> >guns what have you.
>
> You've just made my point for me, thank you.
> ...
> But tell me this: Which do you think will have more of an effect, if
> we wreck overwhelming vengeance on those responsible for this
> tradegy or if we concede to their wishes and withdrawl from Saudi
> Arabia and denouce any friendship with Isreal?
>
> Which one of those actions is going to show them that terrorism is
> unacceptable and that they can not and must not attack the United
> States or any other sovriegn nation?
>
> Try giving your dog a treat and telling him "Good boy" next time he
> shits on the floor and see how that works.
>
> >SR is just a game
>
> <sarcasm>
> What? You can't see that the violent culture that we live in is what
> actually breeds violence? That we are training our children through
> movies, games and music that violence does work and that it is an
> acceptable solution to problems.
>
> Or are you saying that what we think and the things that we as
> people put our time and energy into have absolutely no effect on
> what we do?
> </sarcasm>
>
> Think about it. It is a game, I do know the difference, but I find
> your position on the two issues a bit hypocritical.
>
> >If you can't tell the difference between real life
> >violence and pretend...it's time you see a shrink.
>
> Trust me, I know more about real life and real violence than I care
> to... When was the last time that you had a man convicted of three
> murders pull a knife on you and threaten to drive it into your
> belly?
>
> He was not mis-understood. He did not need counseling. He did not
> need to stand around in a group and sing "Kumbaya." There are those
> among us who have crossed the line between being reasonable human
> beings and something less. Something far more evil. They need to be
> dealt with in order to protect those who are morally opposed to
> violence.
>
> Please do not pretend to lecture me on real life. I've enough of it
> now, thank you.
>
>

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Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Holly Feray)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 14:25:39 2001
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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Hugs going out to LEPER!

Holly
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From: "John Smith" <seutekh@*******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:56:19 +0000
Subject: Re: in defense of the devil
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<html><div style='background-color:'><PRE>Gotta love those
archives.&nbsp; Nevermind, my friend, I found it.</PRE><PRE>I believe you
said you hail from South Africa... I did a little<BR>checking and I'd like to point
out something easilly found in the<BR>CIA World Factbook.</PRE><PRE>It's
quite an interesting site, and I'm not sure why I haven't<BR>looked at it
before.</PRE><PRE><A
href="http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sf.html">http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sf.html</A></PRE><PRE>That
would be the link to the page on South Africa.</PRE><PRE>Anyways, somewhere
near the bottom you'll find an entry entitled<BR>Economic
Aid.</PRE><PRE>recipient: $676.3 million</PRE><PRE>Bear in mind
this is ONLY a financial reckoning which does not <BR>account for services rendered
or even donations from individuals <BR>or private groups within the US or other
nations.</PRE><PRE>While I will certainly not be so rude or false as to say
that this<BR>entire ammoun!
t is the result of my country's efforts, I would like<BR>to point out that a rather
large sum of it is.&nbsp; Had the US not been<BR>so horribly 'rude' as to
'interfere' in your country's own well-being, <BR>I doubt that it would have
recieved such a nice [if not round] ammount.</PRE><PRE>Should you care to
wander around the site a bit more, I'm sure you can <BR>find all sorts of other
wonderful instances where the US and other <BR>countries have 'interfered' in
similar manners to this.</PRE><PRE>Happy
reading.<BR>Lepper.</PRE></div><br clear=all><hr>Get your
FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a
href='http://go.msn.com/bql/hmtag_itl_EN.asp'>http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></html>;
----__JNP_000_4f4a.4fb4.074d--
Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 14:35:01 2001
While I know the curtain has been dropped on the OT debate and I agree to
disagree I'd just like to make one comment here:

Ask yourself this Holly what happens when America finds, judges and executes
say Ben Laden who has a Jihad with your country?

The answer is thus: You make him a Martyr.


This is why some of us are urging americans to calm down and stop wanting
the culprits head on a pike. If it's Ben Laden you could very easily turn a
strategic political prisoner into a Martyr that will spure holy fanatical
terrorists into an even greater up roar.

Yes the culprit must be punished. But take all things into consideration
before you pick up that executioners axe. Do you really end terrorism or do
you just fuel the fire and leave yourself with no bargaining chips?

Now back to Shadowrun :)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Holly Feray" <ldytinne@****.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: in defense of the devil


>
> > Violence is only popular because it's easy. Everyone LOVES the easy
> > route.
> > Ever consider why the boyfriend was knocking his girlfriend about?
> > His own
> > personal demons? Ever consider he ALREADY knew what it was like? No
> > course
> > not, rather than help him you beat the shit out of him. Way to go.
> > Violence
> > solved a problem alright.
>
>
> As a person with some degreed psychological know how...
>
> At a point a person commits MURDER, rape or any other violent crime they
> are reported to the authorities. They are taken in and prosecuted and
> sentenced. (in this case mass murder and terrorism, decided by a jury
> of their peers, hmmmmm, lets see, I think they would receive the death
> penalty, do you agree?) many of these criminals like rapists, serial
> murderers, wife beaters, have high recidivism rates and are deemed
> incurable after having had many attempts made to heal or cure them. Some
> people who have just cause for mental instability are still violent
> criminals and ARE unrecoverable and will continue to remain a threat to
> society and most humanly should stand and take the punishment their crime
> deems appropriate and get on with being judged, karmaed, or reincarnated
> as appropriate to their next or after life.
>
>
> >
> > > America either looked or became weak and as a result we were
> > attacked.
> > It's
> > > not necessarily our fault, but it is our responsibility to deal
> > with it.
> >
> > America has NEVER looked or became weak.
>
> There is always a first time for everything and that is not a thing any
> American wants to see happen.
>
> .
> > >
> >
> > But it will happen again regardless.
>
> But appropriate actions will waylay the heck out people who will dain to
> think about doing so especially in such a grand fashion anytime soon.
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
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>
Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Mark Abbott)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 14:45:17 2001
>
>> America has NEVER looked or became weak.
>
>

Actually, various experts' analysis of Saddam Hussein based on his actions
and what intelligence was made public at the conclusion of the Gulf War
concluded that he believed that invading Kuwait would not, in fact COULD
not, provoke a US response because we were too weak and divided. That our
government is in constant flux and that we have constant internal political
conflict led him to believe that we were incapable of coordinated
retaliation. So yes, the US HAS looked weak to outsiders.

Mark
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 15:05:07 2001
And we saw how well Saddam did, didn't we.

Looking weak and actually being weak are two very different things.

:)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Abbott" <markabbott@****.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: in defense of the devil


> >
> >> America has NEVER looked or became weak.
> >
> >
>
> Actually, various experts' analysis of Saddam Hussein based on his actions
> and what intelligence was made public at the conclusion of the Gulf War
> concluded that he believed that invading Kuwait would not, in fact COULD
> not, provoke a US response because we were too weak and divided. That our
> government is in constant flux and that we have constant internal
political
> conflict led him to believe that we were incapable of coordinated
> retaliation. So yes, the US HAS looked weak to outsiders.
>
> Mark
>
>
Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 15:35:16 2001
ra002585@***.unicamp.br

> >
> > No one is saying you're supposed to sit and do nothing. What
> > everyone is saying is that a war _is_not_ the best way to deal with this.
>
> I agree. I wish the terrorist who used commercial airline planes to bomb
> the WTC and the Pentagon hadn't declared war on the US. But the simple
> fact is is that the terrorists did start this war and the United States
> must defend itself. If the most powerful nation in the world does not
> defend itself, that gives terrorists everywhere a green light to continue
> to use terrorist attacks on civilian targets to pursue their goals.

But sending out the tanks and cruise missiles might not be the
appropriate defensive maneuver. There might not be anywhere to point them
to, for example, if the perpetrators were not backed up by any country,
which is a possibility. Sure, it probably took a lot of money to
implement the plan, but that´s nothing a few bank robberies wouldn´t get
them.

--
Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://www.shadowland.com.br
-- Redator da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.f2s.com
ICQ # 4055455
Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 16:10:01 2001
ra002585@***.unicamp.br
> Bira, from all the accounts I read of Camp-David Israel offered the
> palestinians about everything that we possibly could offer them while
> maintaining our country, think how, if to use an SR example, the US would
> have reacted if the Amerinds would have said: "we want you all to go back
> to Europe, otherwise there will be no treaty", that's about the signal we
> are getting from the Palestinians. Yes, we are somewhat agressive and I
> can't say I agree with everything the current PM does(allmost nothing he
> does strikes me as right), but we offered a peacefull hand and they damn
> near bit it off, so please, don't start thinking they are snowwhite and we
> are coal black(morrally speaking) we both are gray.


I do agree with you on the grayness of the situation in your
area. I may have failed to expose my argument on the previous message; I
was not talking about what _I_ thought of the conflict between Israel
and Palestine, but trying to make some hypotheses about the anger some
Palestinians feel toward the U.S. I'm sorry if I offended you, and assure
you that was not my intention.

--
Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://www.shadowland.com.br
-- Redator da RPG em Revista
http://www;rpgemrevista.f2s.com
ICQ # 4055455
Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Dave Post)
Subject: in defense of the devil
Date: Fri Sep 14 18:00:08 2001
At 11:15 AM 9/14/2001 -02-30, Jonathan wrote:


>That's what makes me sick. So I'm sorry if I'm bashing your bloodthirst but
>I hate war and I hate violence. And violence only begets more violence. It
>has NEVER solved anything, in most cases its only made it worse.

Funny, I thought it solved the problem of Hitler and Hirohito. And the
problem of the British treating the colonies, like, well, colonies. And I
could probably come up with a number of other things violence has solved,
including getting the school bully off my back when I was a kid.

Violence is not always the correct solution, but there are definitely times
where it is necessary and correct.

I happen to believe this time, it is the correct solution. Not a 'Nuke the
Arabs' solution, but a definite war against terrorists and those who harbor
them. Not restricted to the specific terrorist groups that committed these
despicable acts, but against all terrorist groups. After Pearl Harbor,
America didn't declare war on the individual pilots that bombed Pearl
Harbor, but rather declared war on Japan.

Likewise, we should declare war on 'The Nation of Terrorism', which
includes all terrorists, worldwide.

Dave

Further Reading

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