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Message no. 1
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod)
Subject: Indices (sp?) and Tables
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 11:35:19 -0800
I'm putting this in a new email, in case people were ignoring the D20
emails.

Is it just me, or would putting a complete index in the back of each book be
extremely helpful? Also, how about a table with a list of all the gear in
the book? Yes, I know it means duplication of some stuff, but it would be
way easier to find, say, the fuel capacity of a Nissan Jackrabbit by looking
at a table in the back of the book, than trying to find that specific
vehicle somewhere in the middle.

Zebulin

"Per Ardua ad Astra"
Message no. 2
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Indices (sp?) and Tables
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 14:43:00 -0500
At 02:35 PM 4/2/2004, zebulingod wrote:
>I'm putting this in a new email, in case people were ignoring the D20
>emails.
>
>Is it just me, or would putting a complete index in the back of each book be
>extremely helpful? Also, how about a table with a list of all the gear in
>the book? Yes, I know it means duplication of some stuff, but it would be
>way easier to find, say, the fuel capacity of a Nissan Jackrabbit by looking
>at a table in the back of the book, than trying to find that specific
>vehicle somewhere in the middle.

Dear god, yes. That was my crew's biggest gripe about R3, the lack of an
index, and we were hoping they'd take care of it. There wasn't one in R3
Revised, so out of maybe ten people, I'm the only one that purchased it -
and that's only because my cruddy FASA-bound R3 had disintegrated into
uselessness.

Speaking of... Did the non-US FASA books have the horrible propensity for
falling apart like the US ones?

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 3
From: wraith@************.com (wraith)
Subject: Indices (sp?) and Tables
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 14:31:07 -0600
> -----Original Message-----
> Timothy J. Lanza
> Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 1:43 PM
> To: Shadowrun Discussion
> Subject: Re: Indices (sp?) and Tables
>
> At 02:35 PM 4/2/2004, zebulingod wrote:
> >Is it just me, or would putting a complete index in the back of each
> >book be extremely helpful? Also, how about a table with a
> list of all
> >the gear in the book? Yes, I know it means duplication of
> some stuff,
> >but it would be way easier to find, say, the fuel capacity
> of a Nissan
> >Jackrabbit by looking at a table in the back of the book,
> than trying
> >to find that specific vehicle somewhere in the middle.
>
> Dear god, yes. That was my crew's biggest gripe about R3, the
> lack of an
> index, and we were hoping they'd take care of it. There
> wasn't one in R3
> Revised, so out of maybe ten people, I'm the only one that
> purchased it -
> and that's only because my cruddy FASA-bound R3 had
> disintegrated into
> uselessness.

Indices? Indexes? Whatever...from what I understand usually they were
left out due to space/time constraints from the books that desperately
need them. Maybe when they have 30 or so seconds of spare time maybe
they could eventually put them up on the webpage...though I assume this
would only work for whatever files FanPro has access to. Of course,
time would still be a major constraint..a good index could take a while.
>
> Speaking of... Did the non-US FASA books have the horrible
> propensity for
> falling apart like the US ones?

See, now I've rarely had my books fall apart. I don't know if it's
because of how I treat them, or if it's because I live in the south,
where it's almost always warm and humid...no chance for the glue to dry
out and fall apart. I don't have a single SR book that's falling apart
like that. My SR2 book is suffering from wear and tear, but my SR3 book
is handling it fine, other then some worn spots where I hold it. Some
of my Battletech books did fall apart, but I think that was mostly due
to the age of the person reading it at the time :)
Message no. 4
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod)
Subject: Indices (sp?) and Tables
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 12:39:56 -0800
Wraith wrote on Friday, April 02, 2004 12:31 PM
>
> Indices? Indexes? Whatever...from what I understand usually
> they were left out due to space/time constraints from the
> books that desperately need them. Maybe when they have 30 or
> so seconds of spare time maybe they could eventually put them
> up on the webpage...though I assume this would only work for
> whatever files FanPro has access to. Of course, time would
> still be a major constraint..a good index could take a while.
>

I would happily pay an extra $1 per book if it included a decent index and
table.

>
> > Speaking of... Did the non-US FASA books have the horrible
> propensity
> > for falling apart like the US ones?
>
> See, now I've rarely had my books fall apart. I don't know
> if it's because of how I treat them, or if it's because I
> live in the south, where it's almost always warm and
> humid...no chance for the glue to dry out and fall apart. I
> don't have a single SR book that's falling apart like that.
> My SR2 book is suffering from wear and tear, but my SR3 book
> is handling it fine, other then some worn spots where I hold
> it. Some of my Battletech books did fall apart, but I think
> that was mostly due to the age of the person reading it at the time :)
>

Both my SR3 softcovers feel apart. I had to have them spiralbound, and even
then, one of the bindings wasn't done correctly, so it's falling apart now,
too. The other one, though, I got spiralbound and then the covers laminated.
It's holding up pretty well. If it didn't cost $3 per book and make it
difficult to determine which book is which on the shelves, I'd do it to all
of them.

Zebulin

"Per Ardua ad Astra"
Message no. 5
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Indices (sp?) and Tables
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 15:49:48 -0500
On 2-Apr-04, at 3:31 PM, wraith wrote:

> Indices? Indexes? Whatever...from what I understand usually they were
> left out due to space/time constraints from the books that desperately
> need them. Maybe when they have 30 or so seconds of spare time maybe
> they could eventually put them up on the webpage...though I assume this
> would only work for whatever files FanPro has access to. Of course,
> time would still be a major constraint..a good index could take a while

Correct; I set aside a single working day to build the TOC and Index on
the books I work on; and we do TOCs/indexes at GoO in a relatively
quick yet thorough way, as opposed to the more thorough way that the
good SR indexes [SR3, for example] are done. I could easily see a
SR3-style index for a 128 page book taking 16 working hours*; and
that's assuming the person has a decent enough knowledge of the
existing system so they would be able to make reasonable assumptions
during the process.

Best,
Adam
* Which, to the indexer, will seem like 50 hours - indexing sucks. :-)
--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 6
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod)
Subject: Indices (sp?) and Tables
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 13:02:01 -0800
Adam Jury wrote on Friday, April 02, 2004 12:50 PM:

>
> Correct; I set aside a single working day to build the TOC
> and Index on the books I work on; and we do TOCs/indexes at
> GoO in a relatively quick yet thorough way, as opposed to the
> more thorough way that the good SR indexes [SR3, for example]
> are done. I could easily see a SR3-style index for a 128 page
> book taking 16 working hours*; and that's assuming the person
> has a decent enough knowledge of the existing system so they
> would be able to make reasonable assumptions during the process.
>

There aren't computer programs which could do that?

That's odd.

I didn't realise, though, how much work would actually go into building
those. Now I definitely wouldn't mind spending a dollar or two more.

Zebulin


"Per Ardua ad Astra"
Message no. 7
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Indices (sp?) and Tables
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 16:09:52 -0500
On 2-Apr-04, at 4:02 PM, zebulingod wrote:

> There aren't computer programs which could do that?

Yes, but they tend to produce not-useful output in my experience; the
time spent massaging an index into shape [especially in the SR3 style]
would be just as much of a factor. Also, they typically require the
file to be built in a manner that includes 'index this, that, and the
other' tags, and non FanPro layout workflow that I know of accounts for
that.

TOCs can be automated more easily, but it makes sense to manually build
them because you can find nesting errors in the book by manually
building a TOC.

Best,
Adam
--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 8
From: chris@*******.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject: Indices (sp?) and Tables
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:14:11 +1000
Records show that at 07:02 AM on Saturday 3/04/2004 AEDT, zebulingod advised:
>I didn't realise, though, how much work would actually go into building
>those. Now I definitely wouldn't mind spending a dollar or two more.

I'd happily pay several dollars more for a proper Index in a source book.
It's a major gripe amongst me and my players.

Chris
Message no. 9
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Indices (sp?) and Tables
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 11:11:02 +0200
According to zebulingod, on Friday 02 April 2004 23:02 the word on the
street was...

> There aren't computer programs which could do that?

Sure, but AFAIK they depend on you telling them what should be in the
index. I haven't used this kind of thing in years, but for example MS Word
has a handy indexing feature that requires you to mark all the words you
want in the index; then after you tell it to compile the index, it'll list
all those words and the pages they appear on. Unless you're doing it while
you're typing the text, it's about as much work as going through the text
and noting the page numbers of the words by hand; the only real advantage
is that, should you change something that for instance alters the page
count, you can quickly re-compile the index.

Unfortunately, books are (thankfully) not laid out using word processors,
but with proper DTP software that, in my experience anyway, doesn't have
these features. (Though this could be because I use 5-year-old software :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Those who ignore history are doomed to keep liking crappy dance
covers of great songs.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
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