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Message no. 1
From: Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject: Industrial Action (was Re: Harrowing of Focus (sic))
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:16:37 +0200
From: Ken <Ken@********.com>
Date: 23 August 1999 03:20
Subject: RE: Harrowing of Focus (sic)


>Thats my point. Why spend x amount of money fighting legal battles
when you
>can set up shop in a 3rd world country making your widgets and paying
just
>enough to allow folks to buy enough food to hold starvation off.
Folks wont
>quit due to poor working conditions because there's usually 5-6 other
guys
>that would be willing to step in and take your place. just go Bare
Minimum
>on working conditions and hold the "if they dont like it they can
quit"
>stance. No brainwashing required, I have something you need
desperately,
>and you can make something for me. Wanna trade?

That attitude will run you into all kinds of productivity problems as
well as clashes
with the government of the country in question as well as organised
labour in the
area. I realise that most megas dont care about that due to
extraterritoriality but
that wont keep them safe from mass action from their employees. It
wont be all
that easy to replace them either, especially when they "sit-in" or "go
slow" in their
places of work.

Does any SR sourcebook cover labour unions and their power in the
2060s?

- + - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za> -

MiX it UP!
Message no. 2
From: Manx timburke@*******.com.au
Subject: Industrial Action (was Re: Harrowing of Focus (sic))
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 22:45:40 +1000
At 11:16 23/08/99 +0200 Bruce wrote
>Does any SR sourcebook cover labour unions and their power in the
>2060s?
>
> - + - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za> -

Wasn't that covered by the legendary missing
chapter from "The Underworld Sourcebook".

:)
____________________________________
Manx // timburke@*******.com.au // #950
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt
and then it's just hilarious." - Faith No More
____________________________________
Message no. 3
From: Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject: Industrial Action (was Re: Harrowing of Focus (sic))
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 15:14:21 +0200
From: Manx <timburke@*******.com.au>
Date: 23 August 1999 02:47
Subject: Re: Industrial Action (was Re: Harrowing of Focus (sic))


>At 11:16 23/08/99 +0200 Bruce wrote
>>Does any SR sourcebook cover labour unions and their power in the
>>2060s?
>>
>> - + - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za> -
>
>Wasn't that covered by the legendary missing
>chapter from "The Underworld Sourcebook".
>
>:)

I take your point. That seems to be where some of them belong.
Maybe an article for the next NAGEE.... hmmmm....

- + - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za> -

MiX it UP!
Message no. 4
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: Industrial Action (was Re: Harrowing of Focus (sic))
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:33:41 +700
>>Thats my point. Why spend x amount of money fighting legal battles when you

>>can set up shop in a 3rd world country making your widgets and paying just

>>enough to allow folks to buy enough food to hold starvation off. Folks wont

>>quit due to poor working conditions because there's usually 5-6 other guys

>>that would be willing to step in and take your place. just go Bare Minimum

>>on working conditions and hold the "if they dont like it they can quit"
>>stance. No brainwashing required, I have something you need desperately,

>>and you can make something for me. Wanna trade?
>
>That attitude will run you into all kinds of productivity problems as well
as clashes
>with the government of the country in question as well as organised labour
in the
>area. I realise that most megas dont care about that due to extraterritoriality
but
>that wont keep them safe from mass action from their employees. It wont be
all
>that easy to replace them either, especially when they "sit-in" or "go
slow"
in their
>places of work.

People also seem to forget that their are only 10 AAA's and only so many AA's
and even A's. A large portion of the corporations one will have to deal with
will not have the ability to go multinational on their labor.

Arcady Resume: http://resumes.dice.com/arcady <0){{{{><
Art: http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/lothlorien/artists/brianfw/brianfw.html
/.)\ Projects: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Portal/1865/
\(@/ Homepage: http://www.jps.net/arcady/
Message no. 5
From: Ken Ken@********.com
Subject: Industrial Action (was Re: Harrowing of Focus (sic))
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:11:28 -0400
> >That's my point. Why spend x amount of money fighting legal battles
> when you
> >can set up shop in a 3rd world country making your widgets and paying
> just
> >enough to allow folks to buy enough food to hold starvation off.
> Folks wont
> >quit due to poor working conditions because there's usually 5-6 other
> guys
> >that would be willing to step in and take your place. just go Bare
> Minimum
> >on working conditions and hold the "if they don't like it they can
> quit"
> >stance. No brainwashing required, I have something you need
> desperately,
> >and you can make something for me. Wanna trade?
>
> That attitude will run you into all kinds of productivity problems as
> well as clashes
> with the government of the country in question as well as organised
> labour in the
> area. I realise that most megas dont care about that due to
> extraterritoriality but
> that wont keep them safe from mass action from their employees. It
> wont be all
> that easy to replace them either, especially when they "sit-in" or "go
> slow" in their
> places of work.
>
> Does any SR sourcebook cover labour unions and their power in the
> 2060s?
>
Well the countries I was thinking about were the VERY low income countries,
you know the ones where folks are routinely dying of starvation. Put the
right face on it and the country'll let you in without too much of a fuss
(Trying to stimulate the economy and bring fresh money into the area and all
that) once you're established, you set up sweat shops and start chugging out
stuff. Go Slow, organize a sit in...You're fired. Your best friend (whose
family is also starving) will take over your spot before the spot gets cold.
The Government (whose standing army is probably funded or supplied or
trained by you) wont be able to do too much in the way of ousting you. Just
don't put folks in the position of having nothing to lose...

Ken
Message no. 6
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Industrial Action (was Re: Harrowing of Focus (sic))
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:19:38 +0200
People in this thread seem to think that a corporation employing staff
at starvation-level wages in a third-world country would run into
trouble with the government. Why? Look at any African country (with a
few exceptions like Egypt and South Africa). Your average third world
dictator is more likely to support the company that starves its
employees than the one that pays well. A population whose biggest
concern is how to fill the aching hollow in their bellies is easier to
control than one which hs enough free time to actually sit back and
realise how much their government is screwing them.

Once you have got enough money to lift you out of the daily struggle for
survival, you start discovering things like leisure-time. You're able
to take a few minutes out of your day to just sit back and relax, and
then you start thinking. You start remembering just what Big Chief
President Dick Tater told you would happen if you would aid his
revolution. You remember the rhetoric about having a better life. And
it is better. But you and your children are still dying from diseases
that your new employers seem to shrug off with their magical medicines
that come in plastic bottles. You begin to notice all kinds of things
that aren't as they should be. Your eyes start opening to a better way
of life.

Besides, the corp is probably paying such huge bribes to the Arch
Generalissimo Father Of His People that there isn't any money left for
decent wages :-)
--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com
Wandata

QVANTI CANICVLA ILLA IN FENESTRA
Message no. 7
From: Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject: Industrial Action (was Re: Harrowing of Focus (sic))
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:27:40 +0200
<snippage>

>Well the countries I was thinking about were the VERY low income
countries,
>you know the ones where folks are routinely dying of starvation. Put
the
>right face on it and the country'll let you in without too much of a
fuss
>(Trying to stimulate the economy and bring fresh money into the area
and all
>that) once you're established, you set up sweat shops and start
chugging out
>stuff. Go Slow, organize a sit in...You're fired. Your best friend
(whose
>family is also starving) will take over your spot before the spot
gets cold.
>The Government (whose standing army is probably funded or supplied or
>trained by you) wont be able to do too much in the way of ousting
you. Just
>don't put folks in the position of having nothing to lose...

The point of my original reply was that it isnt all that easy to just
fire somebody once the workers get organised. They will realise that
the corp is out to exploit them very quickly. (Poor does not equal
stupid)
Hopefully, they will also realise that it does not matter a great deal
who holds the job as the money earned enters the community as a whole,
to most everyones benefit. It is a mistake to underestimate the
workers, the corps know this from centuries of experience.

- + - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za> -

MiX it UP!
Message no. 8
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Industrial Action (was Re: Harrowing of Focus (sic))
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:06:53 +0100
In article <37C2478A.329347BB@*******.com>, Allen Versfeld
<moe@*******.com> writes
>People in this thread seem to think that a corporation employing staff
>at starvation-level wages in a third-world country would run into
>trouble with the government. Why? Look at any African country (with a
>few exceptions like Egypt and South Africa). Your average third world
>dictator is more likely to support the company that starves its
>employees than the one that pays well. A population whose biggest
>concern is how to fill the aching hollow in their bellies is easier to
>control than one which hs enough free time to actually sit back and
>realise how much their government is screwing them.

On the other hand, you're not going to get much in the way of skilled
labour. And, once you've trained them with useful skills... they represent
an investment, and saying "you're fired!" represents a cost.

Quality control could be something of an issue, too - "right first time" may
be hard to achieve with an unskilled, demoralised and highly transient
workforce.

And if they learn useful skills, they may decide not to come into work, but
to go into business for themselves...

>Once you have got enough money to lift you out of the daily struggle for
>survival, you start discovering things like leisure-time. You're able
>to take a few minutes out of your day to just sit back and relax, and
>then you start thinking. You start remembering just what Big Chief
>President Dick Tater told you would happen if you would aid his
>revolution. You remember the rhetoric about having a better life. And
>it is better. But you and your children are still dying from diseases
>that your new employers seem to shrug off with their magical medicines
>that come in plastic bottles. You begin to notice all kinds of things
>that aren't as they should be. Your eyes start opening to a better way
>of life.

Whereas when you get told "you're fired!" and get thrown off the factory,
and hear your children crying with hunger, then suddenly that recruiter
from the People's Revolutionary Army sounds like he's got a _hell_ of a deal
going. One great way to ensure stability - make sure people realise they
have something to lose.


Cheap way to mess with a competitor - get a nice little revolution going.
At the least, it'll shove their security costs through the roof.


>Besides, the corp is probably paying such huge bribes to the Arch
>Generalissimo Father Of His People that there isn't any money left for
>decent wages :-)

Nope, El Generalissimo knows his place and knows how fast he could be
replaced if he makes noise...


Thing is, do you see anyone relocating assembly lines from Detroit or
Birmingham down to Somalia? No matter _how_ cheap the labour is?

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 9
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Industrial Action (was Re: Harrowing of Focus (sic))
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 15:40:30 -0400
>People in this thread seem to think that a corporation employing staff
>at starvation-level wages in a third-world country would run into

If they don't, it is becuase the terretorial governemnt already has
control of that form of buisness. Look at NorKor, the USSR (Stalin-era),
Romania under Chouchescue (sp), the 3rd Reich and any other totalitarian
countries.
In either case, bribes will have to be paid.

>dictator is more likely to support the company that starves its
>employees than the one that pays well. A population whose biggest

You can try to oppress the people into line, ala Stalin, or you can keep
them mostly happy. You're talking about things that used to work twenty
years ago, but the media penetration has been too deep in the past decade.
Besides, a "starvation wage" in America is good money in the most of
Africa, Asia and south of the Rio Grande.

>>then you start thinking. You start remembering just what Big Chief
>>President Dick Tater told you would happen if you would aid his
>>revolution. You remember the rhetoric about having a better life. And

People remember this stuff better when they realise that if can live with
smell, the rest of the family will eat better if you notify the governemtn
that little Johny died last night.

>that your new employers seem to shrug off with their magical medicines
>that come in plastic bottles. You begin to notice all kinds of things

Excuse me? Anyplace where there is enough infrastructure to run a
factory, no one is going to fall for that old line about "White Man's
Magic". That is in 1999. In 60 years, folks are still going to know that.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that just becuase someone's way of life
is "primitive" by Western standards that they are stupid. Uneducated,
maybe, but not backwards. If you doubt that, call a local medium and try
and contact any of missionaries that have stopped a spear, arrow or load of
buckshot.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 10
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Industrial Action (was Re: Harrowing of Focus (sic))
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:15:59 +0200
IronRaven wrote:
>
> >dictator is more likely to support the company that starves its
> >employees than the one that pays well. A population whose biggest
>
> You can try to oppress the people into line, ala Stalin, or you can keep
> them mostly happy. You're talking about things that used to work twenty
> years ago, but the media penetration has been too deep in the past decade.
> Besides, a "starvation wage" in America is good money in the most
of
> Africa, Asia and south of the Rio Grande.

When I talk about a "starvation wage", I mean *just* enough to pay your
taxes, and get your daily meal.
Do the populations of these countries really know of a better life? How
is the media supposed to penetrate a country where hardly anybody can
afford newspapers? Besides, I think there are other ways to oppress a
population that don't need to involve a militaristic police state. The
people are hungry, they have zero education, a 15 km walk to the nearest
telephone (which doesn't always work), no medical facilities, etc etc.
Of course, you get regular revolutions, but the new government usually
settles very quickly into the same old reliable style as the old.

>
> >>then you start thinking. You start remembering just what Big Chief
> >>President Dick Tater told you would happen if you would aid his
> >>revolution. You remember the rhetoric about having a better life. And
>
> People remember this stuff better when they realise that if can live with
> smell, the rest of the family will eat better if you notify the governemtn
> that little Johny died last night.

True case: Once you've retired (in this country, I don't know about
others), you qualify for a government pension. it gives you enough
money for food, rent and the like. A lot of the rural black folk in
this country will sign for their money with their thumbprint, since most
of them can't read or write (obligatory attack on old government :-).
Somebody working at a pension office noticed that the thumbprint on one
form seemed to be very small. She went back over the months, and found
that the print had been shrinking steadily over the course of several
years. An investigation found that the old man who was ostensibly
receiving the money had died many years ago, but the family had kept his
thumb...

>
> >that your new employers seem to shrug off with their magical medicines
> >that come in plastic bottles. You begin to notice all kinds of things
>
> Excuse me? Anyplace where there is enough infrastructure to run a
> factory, no one is going to fall for that old line about "White Man's
> Magic". That is in 1999. In 60 years, folks are still going to know that.
>

Ok <shrug> - replace "magical" with "amazing". I never said
that they
were stupid, I was merely trying to illustrate one aspect of the "better
life" that they would notice in their employers.


--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com
Wandata

QVANTI CANICVLA ILLA IN FENESTRA
Message no. 11
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Industrial Action (was Re: Harrowing of Focus (sic))
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:08:41 -0400
At 10.15 08-27-99 +0200, you wrote:
>Do the populations of these countries really know of a better life? How

UN, Red Cross/Red Cresent, christian missionaries and Peace Corp
facilities can be found within two days walk of justa bout any third world
village, except for certain parts of the Amazon and a some of the more
openly explosive regions of Africa and Asian. Barring that, everyone
outside of Europe had one of the superpowers try to use them as pawns, and
most of them have experinced colonialism by us, the Brits, the French
within living memory.
With the excpetion of some deep-bush tribes which no one would try to use
as factory slaves, everyone has heard of America, Britian and the rest of
the world. Thier view may not be accurate (streets of gold, everyone
drives a big car and lives in big house, that kind of thing), but you would
be hard pressed on a planet of 6 billion + people to find 100 thousand who
didn't know anything about the outside world.

>population that don't need to involve a militaristic police state. The
>people are hungry, they have zero education, a 15 km walk to the nearest

Unless you use a police state, the conditions you are describing don't
exist. No school, fine- most kids on the planet are still taught by thier
parents, a priest or a village elder. No food- they will grow their own
unless you send troops in to burn and salt thier fields. No phone, big
whoop- runners and drums. No doctor is not a big issue- traditional,
western medicines work as well if not better for 90% of the medical
situations, and that other 10% requires drugs and equipement that have only
been invented in the past 40 years (penicillin is pretyy easy to find and
steal, and black market pharmasuticals are very popular).
Is it easy? Not really, and it would probably kill most Westerners
because they can't adapt. Anyone who want to live, will. And vengence has
kept people alive a lot longer than they should be.

>Of course, you get regular revolutions, but the new government usually
>settles very quickly into the same old reliable style as the old.

Not if it wan't to stay in power.

>were stupid, I was merely trying to illustrate one aspect of the "better
>life" that they would notice in their employers.

OK.
However, humans don't like to be beholden, and knowledge of a better world
is never lost, it just becomes legends. Say MCT sets up a slave factory
and does what you are discribing. People's grandparents would have told
them of better times. When they see that they are getting screwed, they
will rebel. At that point, you can give in or bring in the troops.
If shoot horses who can't jump a hurdle, pretty soon you run out of horses.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 12
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Industrial Action (was Re: Harrowing of Focus (sic))
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 13:29:06 +0200
IronRaven wrote:
>
[long argument snipped]

I'm not going to carry on this discussion for two reasons.

1: It's drifted far enough that I've forgotten the point I was
originally trying to make (and I don't care enough to make the effort to
go to the archives)

2: I think I'm going to lose :-) I don't know what
experience/education Kevin has in global politics, sociology and other
topics pertinent to the discussion, but I have none, so it's all idle
conjecture to me :-)


But it would seem to me, then, that the most likely way for a large corp
to operate in a developing country would simply be however they operate
anywhere else, with the exception of lower wages, longer hours, etc,
because that's what the market will bear in whatever country they're in.

Comments?
--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com
Wandata

QVANTI CANICVLA ILLA IN FENESTRA
Message no. 13
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Industrial Action (was Re: Harrowing of Focus (sic))
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 22:16:02 +0100
In article <37C6493F.E137CBF4@*******.com>, Allen Versfeld
<moe@*******.com> writes
>IronRaven wrote:
>> You can try to oppress the people into line, ala Stalin, or you can keep
>> them mostly happy. You're talking about things that used to work twenty
>> years ago, but the media penetration has been too deep in the past decade.
>> Besides, a "starvation wage" in America is good money in the
most of
>> Africa, Asia and south of the Rio Grande.
>
>When I talk about a "starvation wage", I mean *just* enough to pay your
>taxes, and get your daily meal.

It's surprising how resourceful people are, especially in the Third World.
For that little money, why not go be a farmhand for your cousin?

>Do the populations of these countries really know of a better life?

Damn right they do.

>How
>is the media supposed to penetrate a country where hardly anybody can
>afford newspapers?

You need one newspaper per village. As recently as the 1920s, you'd see
newspapers up on notice boards in many villages.

>Besides, I think there are other ways to oppress a
>population that don't need to involve a militaristic police state. The
>people are hungry, they have zero education, a 15 km walk to the nearest
>telephone (which doesn't always work), no medical facilities, etc etc.

Lousy infrastructure for a manufacturing facility, then.

>Of course, you get regular revolutions, but the new government usually
>settles very quickly into the same old reliable style as the old.

The problem with revolutions is the collateral damage and employee
turnover. When the rebels blow the only decent bridge between your
factory and the port, who rebuilds it?

If you're an extraterritorial corporation paying your employees starvation
wages, the new government could care less about fixing the bridge unless
you _pay_ someone to care... and, likely, fund a lot of the work yourself.

There are real advantages to corporations to having an adequately strong
and stable government in place.

--
Paul J. Adam

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