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From:	Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject:	Re: Ingram Smartgun (was Re: Ares Viper Slivergun)
Date:	Thu, 6 Apr 1995 23:17:33 -0500

Message no. 1 > BTW, do you find that the Ingram Smartgun is vastly superior to all other
> SMGs?

Not really. Personal preference for small & quiet weapons leads me to like
the H&K 227-S. Sure it only handles burst fire and semi-auto, but it's got
a 5 concealability and an integral silencer. The ammo capacity isn't as
good as the Ingram (28 vs. 32), but it does conserve ammunition a lot
better while still doing good damage (7M/10S).

In situations where max damage is needed and all other considerations be
damned, the Ingram SuperMach takes top honors, hands down. Supermachinegun
fire rates combined with hefty ammo capacity (40 or 60) make for damage of
around 21D. Where it really shines though is suppression fire. Of course,
it's also one of the most expensive smg's out there and one of the hardest
to get a hold of. Add on the ammo cost...

Samurai with Wired-2 = approx 3 actions/turn = 45 shots/turn = 135
nuyen/turn (normal rounds) = 225 nuyen/turn (explosive ammo) = 315 nuyen per
turn (APDS).

...and this gun can end up costing LOTS in the long run.

-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>

From:	Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Ingram Smartgun (was Re: Ares Viper Slivergun)
Date:	Sat, 8 Apr 1995 01:21:28 +1000

Message no. 2 Bob Ooton writes:

> Personal preference for small & quiet weapons leads me to like the H&K
> 227-S.

I wasn't really considering silenced weapons, but yes, the HK227-S is the
best if you want a silenced SMG. I was more referring to the most effective
weapon for damage capacity.

> In situations where max damage is needed and all other considerations be
> damned, the Ingram SuperMach takes top honors, hands down.

With vanilla SR recoil rules, this weapon sucks it big time. You need a damn
gyro mount to use it effectively, the Ingram Smartgun craps on it in my view.

A burst from the SuperMach does 12S, and gives you a TN of 7, while a burst
from the Smartgun does 10S, and gives you a TN of 4 [Note - off the shelf
versions]. I'll take the Smartgun any day, not to mention it costs about 1/3
as much and is much more easy to come by. Maybe if you suped the SuperMach
right up it'd be better (clunking sounds as numbers roll over in his head),
yep, it would be, at least for the first burst, but if you fire two bursts,
the Smartgun if more likely to do more damage, since it isn't screwed by
recoil as badly. OTOH, with Rick's new recoil rules (where are they BTW Rick?
You said you would post a final version), the SuperMach would become a
weapon to truely be feared.

--------------
U-Gene writes:

> Although I don't have the FoF book with me, I remember that it could fire
> six round bursts. Do the players and GMs out there use a recoil penalty
> equal to the number of bullets fired (+6) or the standard burst penalty(+3)?

It says under the notes to "Apply recoil modifiers as or normal rounds". It
does, however, get 3 points of recoil compensation for free, so this almost
compensates for that.

> Someone mentioned it could do 21D if fired on full-auto. How do you deal
> with the +15 recoil penalty?

You either have a huge Strength (and use the Strength and recoil rules) or
you whack it on a Gyro mount (or both) :-)

> Or is there a special recoil rule with those guns that fire the light
> pistol rounds really fast?

Not that I know of.

> I believe it (SuperMach) comes with an intergral GV-II, typically modified
> to GV-IV.

It does not come with any attachments at all, but gets 3 free points of
recoil compensation (and boy, it needs them).

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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