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Message no. 1
From: Lars Ericson lericson@****.edu
Subject: Initiate Grades (Was Re: Centering vs Penalties)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:22:05 -0500
LOSLOBOS5@***.com wrote:
>
> You forgot the one other thing that needs to be done. The target number for
> reducing the penaltyis actually (base target+ modifiers - initiate grade),
> never lower than the original target. That makes it a bit more useful.
>
> Los Lobos

The impression that I get from MitS is that higher grade initiate levels
are much more common and appropriate than in SR2. Admittedly, the staged
learning of metatalents lends itself to this, but there are references
to Grade 8 and Grade 10 initiates in the source book. Don't these seem
insanely powerful to anyone else?

In SR2, I emphasized the difficulty and rareness of initiates because
they gained so many new powers. Even though for 9 Good Karma, a magician
could become a full blown Grade 0 initiate, the karma didn't reflect the
jump in power. Luckily, SR3 has toned that down considerably and brought
the power of initiation in line with the karma cost, but does this mean
that a sizable portion of awakened people are initiates? I'm curious
what other gamemasters and players think of that. My instinct would be
that at least 25% of the awakened population would be initiates given
the low cost of initiation.



--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Lars Ericson: Professional Vagabond
Smalley Research Group, Rice University
E-Mail: lericson@****.edu
WWW: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lericson/

Life is like a Wankel Engine. In between the emptiness of boredom and
despair, and the compression of stress in one's life, there's that one
spark of enjoyment that keeps you going.
Message no. 2
From: Kelson kelson13@*******.com
Subject: Initiate Grades (Was Re: Centering vs Penalties)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:27:45 -0700
On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:22:05 Lars Ericson wrote:
>The impression that I get from MitS is that higher grade initiate levels
>are much more common and appropriate than in SR2. Admittedly, the staged
>learning of metatalents lends itself to this, but there are references
>to Grade 8 and Grade 10 initiates in the source book. Don't these seem
>insanely powerful to anyone else?

Yes, it does to me as well. I just ignore that and chuck it over to the epic side of SR
which I frequently ignore. ;)

In my campaign, a Grade 3 Initiate is pretty buff. A Grade 5 would fall in the
"elite" category. A Grade 1 or 2 Initiate has accomplished a lot, but they
aren't uncommon. Most magicians are not Initiates in my campaigns, but they aren't
exactly unheard of, either.

>In SR2, I emphasized the difficulty and rareness of initiates because
>they gained so many new powers. Even though for 9 Good Karma, a magician
>could become a full blown Grade 0 initiate, the karma didn't reflect the
>jump in power. Luckily, SR3 has toned that down considerably and brought
>the power of initiation in line with the karma cost, but does this mean
>that a sizable portion of awakened people are initiates? I'm curious
>what other gamemasters and players think of that. My instinct would be
>that at least 25% of the awakened population would be initiates given
>the low cost of initiation.

Well, since I use Talents (ala Steve Kenson's article), it's not likely that that portion
of the awakened communtiy would initiate (some would, but they don't get much for the
investment). So, that's a good chunk of it right there (in my game world -- YMMV).

Adepts and Full Magicians would be more likely to initiate, but they are fewer in numbers.
Perhaps 20 - 25% of those are Initiates. That would be a good estimate for my world at
least.

>Lars Ericson: Professional Vagabond

Justin


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Message no. 3
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: Initiate Grades (Was Re: Centering vs Penalties)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:29:05 +700
>The impression that I get from MitS is that higher grade initiate levels
>are much more common and appropriate than in SR2. Admittedly, the staged
>
>In SR2, I emphasized the difficulty and rareness of initiates because
>they gained so many new powers. Even though for 9 Good Karma, a magician
>could become a full blown Grade 0 initiate, the karma didn't reflect the
>jump in power. Luckily, SR3 has toned that down considerably and brought
>the power of initiation in line with the karma cost, but does this mean
>that a sizable portion of awakened people are initiates? I'm curious
>what other gamemasters and players think of that. My instinct would be
>that at least 25% of the awakened population would be initiates given
>the low cost of initiation.

I would look at it in the same way that you might look at the number of doctors
who have completed their internships and gone on to be full doctors.

If there are 30 thousand mages in Seattle (1% of the population, though at 3
million Seattle should be a small backwater hick town... and considering it's
land space it's more spacious than many of today's suburbs...) and a good fraction
of them are full mages... then there's likely a very large number of initiates.
I'd say anyone who's been doing magic for more than a few years is an initaite
or viewed as washed up by their collegues.

Of course most initiates don't go too high up in the grades. It gets progessively
harder and there's a lot of other stuff to learn as well.

Arcady Resume: http://resumes.dice.com/arcady <0){{{{><
Art: http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/lothlorien/artists/brianfw/brianfw.html
/.)\ Projects: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Portal/1865/
\(@/ Homepage: http://www.jps.net/arcady/
Message no. 4
From: Lars Ericson lericson@****.edu
Subject: Initiate Grades (Was Re: Centering vs Penalties)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:21:26 -0500
Arcady wrote:

> I would look at it in the same way that you might look at the number of doctors
> who have completed their internships and gone on to be full doctors.
>
> If there are 30 thousand mages in Seattle (1% of the population, though at 3
> million Seattle should be a small backwater hick town... and considering it's
> land space it's more spacious than many of today's suburbs...) and a good fraction
> of them are full mages... then there's likely a very large number of initiates.
> I'd say anyone who's been doing magic for more than a few years is an initaite
> or viewed as washed up by their collegues.

I think you are misinterpreting the statistics a bit. I think it's
supposed to be
1% of population is awakened not mages. That gives 30,000:
40% Unaware and dormant
25% Adepts
25% Aspected Magicians
10% Magicians

It doesn't make sense that there'd be more full-blown magicians than
adepts/aspected magicians in the world. These numbers are by no means
fact, they're just my instincts/perceptions of the Awakened World. Out
of those 18,000 consciously awakened people, I'd say maybe 10-20% are
initiated. Most people are not going to need metamagic or even know much
about it, especially physical adepts (military, sports, etc...). So,
that leaves around 2500 initiates in Seattle alone. That's a hell of a
lot of them. Looking back on this crude analysis, maybe my numbers are
way off and it should be more like 1% are initiated.


> Of course most initiates don't go too high up in the grades. It gets progessively
> harder and there's a lot of other stuff to learn as well.

That's definitely true.

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Lars Ericson: Professional Vagabond
Smalley Research Group, Rice University
E-Mail: lericson@****.edu
WWW: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lericson/

Life is like a Wankel Engine. In between the emptiness of boredom and
despair, and the compression of stress in one's life, there's that one
spark of enjoyment that keeps you going.
Message no. 5
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Initiate Grades (Was Re: Centering vs Penalties)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 15:47:30 -0400 (EDT)
Lars Ericson <lericson@****.edu> writes:
> Arcady wrote:
>>[something like 20k initiates]
>[something like 3k initiates]

> 1% of population is awakened not mages. That gives 30,000:
> 40% Unaware and dormant
> 25% Adepts
> 25% Aspected Magicians
> 10% Magicians

I used to think that it may have been low, somewhere between
300-3000, but that's because because Grimoire used to be SOTA. It
occurs to me that people may want to settle on a SR year before
tossing figures around.

It's like asking how many full magicians know how to summon
watchers. If you play in 2061, I'd say that almost all of them can
summon watchers, and most of them know what initiation is, even if
they don't plan on doing it. If you play in 2052?, everything is
going to be different. I see initiation as an example of the spread
of knowledge. In 2061, I see initiation being almost as common as
someone raising their Sorcery and Conjuring skills to 6, because
that's how anyone with a brain and some patience is going to go about
enhancing their magic. 15 karma for self-initiation w/ ordeal is a
pretty good bargain for what you get, and if you find a magical group
you can stomach, it gets better.

Mark
Message no. 6
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: Initiate Grades (Was Re: Centering vs Penalties)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:53:21 +700
>> If there are 30 thousand mages in Seattle (1% of the population, though at
3
>
>I think you are misinterpreting the statistics a bit. I think it's
>supposed to be
>1% of population is awakened not mages. That gives 30,000:
>40% Unaware and dormant
>25% Adepts
>25% Aspected Magicians
>10% Magicians

I will have to double check MitS but I believe the 1% is magically active people.
People who on some level can use magic. It then states that a fraction of those
are aspected. No further sub percentages are given. I would presume who falls
were is based mostly on a person's 'worldview' or paradigm of reality. Though
that is presumtion. All we can verifiably say is that it does not state how
many fall into each catagory but that 1% of the world 'can use magic'.


But even if it says 'awakened' that cannot include unaware and dormants. The
terms are mutually exclusive. You can't be 'awakened' and 'unaware'.

Arcady Resume: http://resumes.dice.com/arcady <0){{{{><
Art: http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/lothlorien/artists/brianfw/brianfw.html
/.)\ Projects: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Portal/1865/
\(@/ Homepage: http://www.jps.net/arcady/
Message no. 7
From: Kelson kelson13@*******.com
Subject: Initiate Grades (Was Re: Centering vs Penalties)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:12:44 -0700
On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:53:21 Arcady wrote:

>But even if it says 'awakened' that cannot include unaware and dormants. The
>terms are mutually exclusive. You can't be 'awakened' and 'unaware'.

I disagree. Awakened, as I interpret it, means "able to use magic". That
doesn't mean that everyone with the ability to use magic knows that they can. To me, the
1% figure includes anyone who is able to use magic as well as latents.

All IMO. YMMV. :)

Justin


--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Message no. 8
From: Bahamut Mighty Dragon Lord bahamut@**.com
Subject: Initiate Grades (Was Re: Centering vs Penalties)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:10:15 -0400
> In SR2, I emphasized the difficulty and rareness of initiates because
> they gained so many new powers. Even though for 9 Good Karma, a magician
> could become a full blown Grade 0 initiate, the karma didn't reflect the
> jump in power. Luckily, SR3 has toned that down considerably and brought
> the power of initiation in line with the karma cost, but does this mean
> that a sizable portion of awakened people are initiates? I'm curious
> what other gamemasters and players think of that. My instinct would be
> that at least 25% of the awakened population would be initiates given
> the low cost of initiation.
>
>
<SNIP>
We just make groups much harder to find and or creat. Since with out a group you need 15
Karma and a trial of sorts.
Message no. 9
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: Initiate Grades (Was Re: Centering vs Penalties)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 22:02:49 -0700
> > If there are 30 thousand mages in Seattle (1% of the population,
> > and a good fraction
> > of them are full mages... then there's likely a very large number of
initiates.
> > I'd say anyone who's been doing magic for more than a few years is an
initiate
> > or viewed as washed up by their colleagues.
>
> I think you are misinterpreting the statistics a bit. I think it's
> supposed to be 1% of population is awakened not mages. That gives 30,000:
> 40% Unaware and dormant
> 25% Adepts
> 25% Aspected Magicians
> 10% Magicians
>
> It doesn't make sense that there'd be more full-blown magicians than
> adepts/aspected magicians in the world. These numbers are by no means
> fact, they're just my instincts/perceptions of the Awakened World. Out


Magic In The Shadows. Page 28, last paragraph:

First, the Awakened represent the smallest minority of the population. Only
1 percent of the people in the Sixth World CAN USE MAGIC. A fraction of that
percentage are aspected magicians, never got the proper training, or go
crazy trying to deal with their gift. Rarity makes the Awakened valuable,
but it also makes them feared. (etc... switches to a different topic)...

Note that it says "CAN USE MAGIC". Not 'are awakened and dormant'. Note also
that it says a 'fraction' are not full mages. A fraction usually implies the
lesser of two parts. That means that in a city like Seattle with 3 million
(should be 30 million) there would be AT LEAST 15 thousand Priority A Mages.
And another 15 thousand who are priority B trained or not.

If there are dormants, they weren't included in the above statement. Since
that figure is the figure for the people that can USE it. Not the people
that HAVE it.

And even if you assume that the dormants are in there somehow, they are in
the 'fraction' area.

Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
Resume http://resumes.dice.com/arcady
/.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
\(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.
Message no. 10
From: Lars Ericson lericson@****.edu
Subject: Initiate Grades (Was Re: Centering vs Penalties)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:26:38 -0500
Arcady wrote:

> Magic In The Shadows. Page 28, last paragraph:
>
> First, the Awakened represent the smallest minority of the population. Only
> 1 percent of the people in the Sixth World CAN USE MAGIC. A fraction of that
> percentage are aspected magicians, never got the proper training, or go
> crazy trying to deal with their gift. Rarity makes the Awakened valuable,
> but it also makes them feared. (etc... switches to a different topic)...
>
> Note that it says "CAN USE MAGIC". Not 'are awakened and dormant'. Note
also
> that it says a 'fraction' are not full mages. A fraction usually implies the
> lesser of two parts. That means that in a city like Seattle with 3 million
> (should be 30 million) there would be AT LEAST 15 thousand Priority A Mages.
> And another 15 thousand who are priority B trained or not.
>
> If there are dormants, they weren't included in the above statement. Since
> that figure is the figure for the people that can USE it. Not the people
> that HAVE it.
>
> And even if you assume that the dormants are in there somehow, they are in
> the 'fraction' area.

I had forgotten MitS mentioned this and was just going on instinct and
past experience. I think I'd rather may statistics since they make more
sense to me. I find it hard to believe that there are 30,000
spellcasting magicians (and apsected) in Seattle alone. That's a giant
population that I don't think any gamemaster would accurately represent.
To each his own.

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Lars Ericson: Professional Vagabond
Smalley Research Group, Rice University
E-Mail: lericson@****.edu
WWW: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lericson/

Life is like a Wankel Engine. In between the emptiness of boredom and
despair, and the compression of stress in one's life, there's that one
spark of enjoyment that keeps you going.
Message no. 11
From: Mockingbird mockingbird@*********.com
Subject: Initiate Grades (Was Re: Centering vs Penalties)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:57:34 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Arcady <arcady@***.net>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: Initiate Grades (Was Re: Centering vs Penalties)


> >The impression that I get from MitS is that higher grade initiate
levels
> >are much more common and appropriate than in SR2. Admittedly, the
staged
> >

<snip>

> I would look at it in the same way that you might look at the number
of doctors
> who have completed their internships and gone on to be full doctors.
>
> If there are 30 thousand mages in Seattle (1% of the population,
though at 3
> million Seattle should be a small backwater hick town... and
considering it's
> land space it's more spacious than many of today's suburbs...) and a
good fraction
> of them are full mages... then there's likely a very large number of
initiates.
> I'd say anyone who's been doing magic for more than a few years is an
initaite
> or viewed as washed up by their collegues.
>
> Of course most initiates don't go too high up in the grades. It gets
progessively
> harder and there's a lot of other stuff to learn as well.
>

Or another way to look at it is like a college faculty. Alot of
Associate Professors (adepts and aspected mages), some Full Professors
(full mages), and several Doctorates (initiates), with one or two
multi-Doctorates (high level initiates). The better the college (corp)
the more Doctorates on staff and the less Associate Proffessors.

YMMV,
Mockingbird
Message no. 12
From: arcady@***.net arcady@***.net
Subject: Initiate Grades (Was Re: Centering vs Penalties)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:05:03 +700
>> Magic In The Shadows. Page 28, last paragraph:
>>
>> First, the Awakened represent the smallest minority of the population.
Only
>> 1 percent of the people in the Sixth World CAN USE MAGIC. A fraction of that

>> percentage are aspected magicians, never got the proper training, or go
>> crazy trying to deal with their gift. Rarity makes the Awakened valuable,

>> but it also makes them feared. (etc... switches to a different topic)...

>
>I had forgotten MitS mentioned this and was just going on instinct and
>past experience. I think I'd rather may statistics since they make more
>sense to me. I find it hard to believe that there are 30,000
>spellcasting magicians (and apsected) in Seattle alone. That's a giant
>population that I don't think any gamemaster would accurately represent.
>To each his own.

MitS may seem high. But look at it this way. in 1999 USA 1% of the people are
Native Americans with a high enough amount of blood to be registered as such
with a tribe and federally recognized so.

Yet walk down the average street and it will take a bit of time to spot any
of them. This of course varies by region. You'll have an easier time finding
them in Denver Colorado than you will in Burlington Vermont. And not just because
the Sioux are huge and stand out like trolls... :)

The way I see the figure is that there are enough of them around for there to
be lots of occult societies forming. The average person will see them about
as often as I in today's world run into other Native Americans. They however
will find themselves living in worlds teeming with competition and sceeming
collegues.

Somebody once brought up a figure for the number of doctors in society today.
I don't recall what they said it was, but I like the idea of modeleing how often
one finds a mage and how insular they are off of the way doctors are represented
in today's world.
You'll see them doing their thing from time to time. You may even know one to
some degree or another. But for the most part they stick to each other and are
still rare enough to be hard to get on the payroll for anybody less than a midsized
company. Still rare enough to be able to pull in big salaries and good benifits.
But not so rare that they can expect to have the right to make any demand they
want straight to the CEO. Not so rare that a company would never risk putting
them on the frontline.

One percent sounds like a lot on the surface. But spread them out throughout
the city and make them very insular and very competative and you'll get good
results.
Message no. 13
From: Sidhe tirnanog@****.com
Subject: Initiate Grades (Was Re: Centering vs Penalties)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:41:22 -0700
|Arcady wrote:
|
|> Magic In The Shadows. Page 28, last paragraph:
|>
|> First, the Awakened represent the smallest minority of the
|population. Only
|> 1 percent of the people in the Sixth World CAN USE MAGIC. A fraction of that
|> percentage are aspected magicians, never got the proper training, or go
|> crazy trying to deal with their gift. Rarity makes the Awakened valuable,
|> but it also makes them feared. (etc... switches to a different topic)...
|> Note that it says "CAN USE MAGIC". Not 'are awakened and dormant'. Note
also
|> that it says a 'fraction' are not full mages. A fraction usually implies the
|> lesser of two parts. That means that in a city like Seattle with 3 million
|> (should be 30 million) there would be AT LEAST 15 thousand Priority A Mages.
|> And another 15 thousand who are priority B trained or not.

yes it says that they CAN use magic. it does not say that they are aware of it
at all. when you say that someone CAN do 'something' that does not mean they
actually know that they have the ability to do that 'something'. you cannot
assume that that is what is meant by that statement you are focussing on.

of course, the author might have intended it in the meaning you explained. it
can be viewed either way. so what i am saying is that because of the wording,
you can view it as the fact that the 1% the quote is talking about all know that
they are awakened and CAN use magic. or you could assume, as i do, that that
whole 1% CAN use magic but some fraction of them do not realize they are
awakened, or they don't want to believe they are awakened.

|> If there are dormants, they weren't included in the above statement. Since
|> that figure is the figure for the people that can USE it. Not the people
|> that HAVE it.
|>
|> And even if you assume that the dormants are in there
|>somehow, they are in the 'fraction' area.

again, you are just assuming that is what they meant. basically that whole quote
can be twisted around and logically make sense for either argument.

basically it comes down to how you want to run your gameworld and you make your
interpretation of that quote as you will. in a campaign i would run i would
assume that not all of the 1% knew they were awakened. it is more fun and more
realistic that way.

-------------------------------
k. david hayes
tirnanog@****.com
rook_aerie@*******.com
-------------------------------
never underestimate the power
of stupid people in large herds
-------------------------------

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