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Message no. 1
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: "initiate" non-mages
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:07:29 +0000
I had this idea last night about non-mages "initiating" and getting
similar bonuses to mages who do so.
First: Why? Simple, after a certain amount of runs a sam or any
similar character sort of reaches his max. He's out of essence and/or
body (or simply thinks that it's enough), his skills are at a
reasonable high level and adding points to that wouldn't improve his
chances much anyway.
So what's the difference between a maxed out sam with 4 or 10 years
of experience in game terms: almost nothing.

"Initiation" could change that a bit (note the quotes for I don't
see a ritual surrounding it). Possible advantages could be:

-Centering for non-mages

-A lower target number when using a specific weapon, or program for
deckers (highest specialization or something similar)

-Bonus on suprise rolls

etc. etc. I didn't really work this out much, but it seems to me a
way in which a non-mage character can grow beyond a certain stage.

Ideas, comments, etc.?



Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 2
From: Iridios <iridios@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: "initiate" non-mages
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:58:25 -0400
Martin Steffens wrote:
>
> I had this idea last night about non-mages "initiating" and getting
> similar bonuses to mages who do so.

<snip>

> Ideas, comments, etc.?

I've always felt that there should be similar groups/organizations for
non-mage types. "Cadres" for Street Sams and maybe Physads...err..
Adepts (they are more like sams than mages), Cyberspace organizations
for deckers, etc, etc... Essentially *underground* proffesional
organizations.

Bonuses may include increased contact networking (thus being able to
get better jobs), assistance from others of your "profession", access
to information and increased ability to maintain SOTA.

However, I play it that these are not easy groups to get into. The PC
needs to prove that they are worthy of the better groups, and the
groups that are easy to find and join generally have weak (or bad)
reputations.

<snip sig>

--"Any science, sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from
magic."
--Arthur C. Clarke

Iridios
iridios@*********.com
ICQ UIN:6629224
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489
http://members.theglobe.com/Iridios

-------Begin Geek Code Block------
GS d-(++) s+: a- C++ U?@>++ P L E?
W++ N o-- K- w(---) O? M-- V? PS+@
PE Y+ !PGP>++ t++@ 5+ X++@ R++@ tv
b+ DI++ !D G e+@>++++ h--- r+++ y+++
-------End Geek Code Block--------
Message no. 3
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: "initiate" non-mages
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:01:16 EDT
In a message dated 9/9/1998 12:13:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
chimerae@***.IE writes:

>
> etc. etc. I didn't really work this out much, but it seems to me a
> way in which a non-mage character can grow beyond a certain stage.
>
> Ideas, comments, etc.?
>
Martin, on the Hacker House website is a group called "the Mechanics" under
the magic section/pages. Go read and enjoy.

-K
Message no. 4
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: "initiate" non-mages
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:24:18 -0400
At 06:07 PM 9/9/98 +0000, you wrote:
>I had this idea last night about non-mages "initiating" and getting
>similar bonuses to mages who do so.

Martin...

>First: Why? Simple, after a certain amount of runs a sam or any
>similar character sort of reaches his max. He's out of essence and/or
>body (or simply thinks that it's enough), his skills are at a
>reasonable high level and adding points to that wouldn't improve his
>chances much anyway.

So?

>So what's the difference between a maxed out sam with 4 or 10 years
>of experience in game terms: almost nothing.

Ah, if we are talking about say, the Pistol skill, little to nothing. But
the 10 yr. vet is going to have a scad more in the way of supplementary
skills. The ten year vet might have a higher B&R: Pistol. They might have
specific Knowledge skills regarding layouts and security procedures for
specific companies and buildings. They might have that language skill that
the newbie or 4-yr vet doesn't have.

Sure, they both might shoot a gun equally well. But the 10-yr. vet is
going to have a passel of complimentary/supplementary skills that will help
him do his job that much better.

>etc. etc. I didn't really work this out much, but it seems to me a
>way in which a non-mage character can grow beyond a certain stage.

Yes, outwards. Even magicians end up doing this, as it become prohibitivly
expensive to continue to Initiate. An extra grade would be really nice,
but for 30 Karma (or whatever), you could pick up some nice little skills
that would help to round out the PC and make them that much more helpful
and useful. Street sams and other mundane sorts just reach that point a
bit sooner than magicians. And with the break-up of the Armed Combat and
Firearms skills, it's going to be that much harder to become a "god" in
those categories.

>Ideas, comments, etc.?

Honestly, I think it's unnecessary and open to far too much abuse.

Of course, that's in my very rarely if ever even when I'm mellowed humble
opinion. IMVRIEEWIMHO.
;-)

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 5
From: The Great Cornholio <ChemPhD2Be@***.COM>
Subject: Re: "initiate" non-mages
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:57:23 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-09 13:14:35 EDT, you write:

<< Initiation" could change that a bit (note the quotes for I don't
see a ritual surrounding it). Possible advantages could be:

-Centering for non-mages

-A lower target number when using a specific weapon, or program for
deckers (highest specialization or something similar)

-Bonus on suprise rolls

etc. etc. I didn't really work this out much, but it seems to me a
way in which a non-mage character can grow beyond a certain stage.

Ideas, comments, etc.?



Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie >>

AIEEEEEEEE! Lower taget numbers for Sams? Isn't the base for most of these
thugs a 2?

A sam has the advantage of being really tough really quick. And the karma
he's got.. it's often used to save his/her ass. And if the GM's generous,
maybe the asses of his chums. And if you think about Sams... they'll max
out... and be pretty standard with all the other Sams lucky enough to live
into 3 years of running the shadows. Once they've sided with the cyber, the
cyber is how they live and die. Thus is the life of a Sam.

TGC
Message no. 6
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: "initiate" non-mages
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:46:24 EDT
In a message dated 9/9/98 6:58:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
ChemPhD2Be@***.COM writes:

> << Initiation" could change that a bit (note the quotes for I don't
> see a ritual surrounding it). Possible advantages could be:
>
> -Centering for non-mages
>
> -A lower target number when using a specific weapon, or program for
> deckers (highest specialization or something similar)

SR3 already has centering for mundanes, it's called Complimentary Skills.

And, according to a conversation with Steve Kenson, some skills can be used as
complimentary skills when casting spells on a case-by-case basis.

Examples ...

Fix Spell ............. Sorcery and appropriate B/R skill
Influence / Mob Mood / Mob Mind ... Sorcery and Psychology / Sociology
Beneficial Health Spells ... Sorcery and Biotech / Biology / appropriate skill

But not all spells will have an appropriate complimentary skill which can be
used though. And as for the use of complimentary skills with conjuring and
enchanting probably remains to be seen as to what comes out in MiTS later on.

Enjoy guys,

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 7
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: "initiate" non-mages
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:07:55 +0000
and thus did Erik Jameson speak on 9 Sep 98 at 15:24:

> Sure, they both might shoot a gun equally well. But the 10-yr. vet is
> going to have a passel of complimentary/supplementary skills that will help
> him do his job that much better.

Well I figured that after this time he would have an edge in combat
that is simply not present in the rules as they are right now. He has
ten years of being shot at and shooting people, I figured that if you
stay alive that long you would show it in a different way than just
high skills (that don't help you beyond a certain level anyway).

> Honestly, I think it's unnecessary and open to far too much abuse.

I can see the possibility for abuse from miles away, but mages are
very powerful at the start too, and they have ways to become more
powerful pretty quickly. Mine usually stop at grade four and then
start diverting points into skills, free spirits, foci, etc. A sam or
decker hit a point where they are finished becoming better. A decker
will never be able to hack into certain hosts, and IMO he hits that
level pretty quickly (I don't remember exactly but usually it's
around red 9 IIRC), no amount of experience will improve his chances
in a Red 10 system very much.
IMO there should be a way for very experienced characters to grow
beyond the limits that the D6 system imposes.

Martin
(who wished he had some players to try out his ideas on)
Message no. 8
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: "initiate" non-mages
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:07:55 +0000
and thus did Iridios speak on 9 Sep 98 at 13:58:

> I've always felt that there should be similar groups/organizations for
> non-mage types. "Cadres" for Street Sams and maybe Physads...err..
> Adepts (they are more like sams than mages), Cyberspace organizations
> for deckers, etc, etc... Essentially *underground* proffesional
> organizations.

I wasn't really thinking in that direction, but the way you present
it, it looks like a good way to control doing it.
It's also a good way to give them an edge in different ways; the
Dead Decker's Society of which your decker is a member gave some
seminars on Renraku security, for the next week/month you have -1 on
all target numbers when decking against them, or something along
those lines.

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 9
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: "initiate" non-mages
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:25:00 -0400
At 04:07 PM 9/10/98 +0000, you wrote:

>> Sure, they both might shoot a gun equally well. But the 10-yr. vet is
>> going to have a passel of complimentary/supplementary skills that will help
>> him do his job that much better.
>
>Well I figured that after this time he would have an edge in combat
>that is simply not present in the rules as they are right now. He has
>ten years of being shot at and shooting people, I figured that if you
>stay alive that long you would show it in a different way than just
>high skills (that don't help you beyond a certain level anyway).

Ah, but that's what those other skills can represent. Having done actual
'runs on the Renraku Arcology, the veteran might have a special Knowledge
Skill, Renraku Arcology: Layout (or something) that would be used to help
him figure the best way in or out, where there might be good cover and
which hallways would become kill zones. The newbie wouldn't have that
knowledge and is far more likely to make some sort of mistake on a Renraku
Arcology run.

This sort of thing can be applied in many other ways. Lone Star Procedures
(how to mess things up to get a case thrown out maybe, dunno), Lone Star
Response Times (how long does he have after an alarm is tripped?),
Bodyguard Procedures (not only how to be one, but how to get past one), all
sorts of things. All of which are skills that the rookie street sam isn't
likely to have, or at least not have significant levels in. And all of
which can be very helpful and would better represent, to me, the age and
experience of a 10 year shadow veteran than non-Awakened initiation.

>powerful pretty quickly. Mine usually stop at grade four and then
>start diverting points into skills, free spirits, foci, etc.

The point of diminishing returns and increased costs.

>A sam or
>decker hit a point where they are finished becoming better. A decker
>will never be able to hack into certain hosts, and IMO he hits that
>level pretty quickly (I don't remember exactly but usually it's
>around red 9 IIRC), no amount of experience will improve his chances
>in a Red 10 system very much.

Well, I'd like to think that a Red 10 would be tough for nearly any decker,
even a "Dodger" type. But a Force 10 Fireball is still going to be tough
for any magician, regardless of if it's a non-Initiate or a Grade 10.
It'll be easier for the Grade 10, but still very tough.

>IMO there should be a way for very experienced characters to grow
>beyond the limits that the D6 system imposes.

Well, *I* think that the increased importance and value of Knowledge Skills
that SR3 puts into place really helps in this regard. It gives a lot more
in the way of skills for the veteran street sam to spend their Karma on. I
mean, the wily old veteran doesn't survive strictly on say, combat skills
alone. It's all the other knowledge and experience that makes him wily and
old and that can be mimiced by Knowledge Skills.

Conversely, while magicians are likely to grow in power with their magic,
they aren't anywhere near as likely to have the same depth and breadth of
skills that their mundane cousins will have. They are so focused on their
magic, they won't bother with learning about the layout of the Arcology for
example.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 10
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: "initiate" non-mages
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:49:03 +1000
Karina & Martin Steffens writes:
> It's also a good way to give them an edge in different ways; the
> Dead Decker's Society of which your decker is a member gave some
> seminars on Renraku security, for the next week/month you have -1 on
> all target numbers when decking against them, or something along
> those lines.

Actually, decker covens are an excellent way for deckers to keep up with the
SOTA. They wouldn't be particularly large, and everyone would have to know
and trust each other's skills (trust me, I wouldn't risk _my_ wetware on the
line with someone else's code or hardware without knowing that they can do
the job). But a group of three or four deckers can maintain a much higher
level of SOTA than a single decker, and can afford to specialise as well.
One will handle hardware upgrades, another writes cutting-edge attack
routines, a third handles keeping up to date with encryption techniques,
etc...

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 11
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: "initiate" non-mages
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 00:49:58 -0700
> I've always felt that there should be similar groups/organizations for
> non-mage types. "Cadres" for Street Sams and maybe Physads...err..
> Adepts (they are more like sams than mages), Cyberspace organizations
> for deckers, etc, etc... Essentially *underground* proffesional
> organizations.

I wasn't really thinking in that direction, but the way you present
it, it looks like a good way to control doing it.
It's also a good way to give them an edge in different ways; the
Dead Decker's Society of which your decker is a member gave some
seminars on Renraku security, for the next week/month you have -1 on
all target numbers when decking against them, or something along
those lines.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

That sounds basically like letting characters get "edges" after
character creation. No problem with that, although standardizing cost
and effect would be very hard.

IMHO, samurai (at least) don't "top out" that easily. I played one
with 150 karma, and could easily see where the next 150 would go (medical
and "political" skills and some stats past "normal" racial max). The
next
150 after that would probably go pretty easy also- probably some "utility"
(i.e. support) decking and non-matrix (Simsense / Skillsoft) programming.
He still would not be a jack of all trades, or maxed out in all
attributes.

That was in SR2- in SR3, this seems even less likely to be a problem;
"centering" for guns would consist of learning every gun so theres NEVER a
default penalty, or specializing outrageously with one (very nice not to
burn combat pool on combat tests). Attributes cost more.

For deckers, you don't NEED special "initiation"- a group of deckers
pounding out MPCPS, Masking, and sleaze progs is a scary thing; they can
reasobaly get decks with detection factors of 13 (MPCP 10, masking 10 for
15 in mask mode, sleaze 10= 13 detection). If they get acses to a
mainframe, they get there pretty fast... its as good as initiation, IMO.

<shrug> Joining a professional organization makes sense, also, but I
always figured that was simply expanding your contacts. A samurai might
get a personal black clinic contact, or just as good, a reliable "courier"
or "inside man".
Definitely, mages should NOT be the only ones who can make new
friends. If the mage can go out and look for a group, anybody else can do
the same with more mundane contacts. And at some point, they would "step
to the next level", gaining elite contacts or acsess to new areas.

Maybe the problem is that its hard for mundane runners to do this and
stay runners. They'd tend to need a Corp affiliation. Funny, I remember
Mike saying at GC that the new Corp book would have rules for Corp
affiliation and the specific bonuses it would provide a teem of runners.
Sounds like a good place to start.

Mongoose

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