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Message no. 1
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Initiate Powers
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 11:28:55 -0700
Since I have gotten very little response to my question about possible
powers for high-grade initiates (why, I think that's sour grapes I smell
;-)), I have actually had to resort to my own creativity, with some help
from my friend the GREAT Cornholio. So here's what I have come up with...

After say, grade 10 (So everything starts at 11), the initiate begins to
be able to handle drain easier. This means that ones spell may be
selected per grade, and that spell will have the staging stepped down by
one level (from Serious to Moderate for example). In this case of spells
with staging above Deadly, reduce the target number by two (Fireball goes
from F/2+3 Deadly to F/2+1 Deadly). This can be cumulative, but drain
can never go below Light. It is our feeling that this represents the
tremendous understanding of the warp and weave of magic that a high-grade
initiate would have.

In addition, I also think that the immunity powers would also eventually
be gained, but only at very high grades, such as 50+.

Another idea I am toying with is the ability to teleport of summon
magical items the mage didn't bring with him. A little like that A$&$
'Instant Summons' spell, but I derived my idea more from something
Harlequin does in HB. The mage at say, grade 20, can spend 1 Karma and
have any item he has magically bonded to (like his weapon focus) teleport
to him. So if Merlin the Mage forgot to bring his weapon focus, he can
now have it with a Complex Action and a Karma spent. This probably would
not work if the item was in an enemies ward (maybe it would then become
an opposed test, the mages Sorcery skill or something vs. the wards
rating), but that can be worked out later.

So what do people think? Without actually having used any of these ideas
yet I don't really know how they would affect game balance, but I tried
very hard not to upset the balance too much. I think they might work,
but now it's time for you guys to respond.

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
Message no. 2
From: Stefan Struck <struck@******.INFORMATIK.UNI-BONN.DE>
Subject: Re: Initiate Powers
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 10:07:20 +0100
Eric writes:
> So what do people think? Without actually having used any of these ideas
> yet I don't really know how they would affect game balance, but I tried
> very hard not to upset the balance too much. I think they might work,
> but now it's time for you guys to respond.
You're taking about 10th level initiates and are thinking about game
balance? Wow, I hope I'll never need to use rules for guys like that.
The calculation of the mass of karma points you need to reach the 10th
level (not speaking of level 50) makes my head ache.

bye,
Stefan
Message no. 3
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Initiate Powers
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 00:02:38 +1100
Erik S Jameson writes:

> [Super-Duper Initiate powers 'r' us]

Um, I don't mean to offend you or anything, but is all that even neccessary?
It seems just a little munchkinous to me. Trying to emulate $$&$ is what it
looks like from this end. Just why do you even need powers for initiates
over grade 10? I would think the mere fact that you have all the regular
initiate bonuses and abilities at such a high level would be enough. Not to
mention what your skills/stats/spells would be like if you had enough karma
to spare to actually get to grade 10. Anybody with that kind of karma is
pretty darn phenominal without the $$&$-like abilities.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 4
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Initiate Powers
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 10:06:43 +1100
Erik S Jameson writes:

> Since I have gotten very little response to my question about possible
> powers for high-grade initiates (why, I think that's sour grapes I smell
> ;-)), I have actually had to resort to my own creativity, with some help
> from my friend the GREAT Cornholio.

If you're interested, we're in the process of this ourselves. Our GM,
and our (infamous) Snake shaman have come up with some ideas. They're
about 4 pages long, and we're going to be discussing them tomorrow night.
After that< I'd be happy to send you a copy, if you like.

So here's what I have come up with...

> After say, grade 10 (So everything starts at 11), the initiate begins to
> be able to handle drain easier. [... for one spell per extra grade ...]

!!!
That's a really gross advantage. On the other hand, a level 11 initiate
should be pretty awesome. Hmm...

> In addition, I also think that the immunity powers would also eventually
> be gained, but only at very high grades, such as 50+.

Ok. I can't imagine a PC ever achieving this.

> Another idea I am toying with is the ability to teleport of summon
> magical items the mage didn't bring with him. A little like that A$&$
> 'Instant Summons' spell, but I derived my idea more from something
> Harlequin does in HB. The mage at say, grade 20

I hate the idea of allowing teleport to a PC, and even to most NPCs.
H is okay, and I agree that their should be rules to govern them,
even if no player will ever achieve such awesome levels.

Our ideas are for benefits that start at level 1 of Initiation, but
which are less advantageous than the Metamagical abilities. (We also
restrict the Initiate to a choice of 1 Metamagical ability per grade
of Initiation.)

By the way, the motivation for these extra rules are:

1) To come up with rules that can explain the higher abilities
of various NPCs.
2) To encourage mages to be more distinctive, through a sort of
specialisation in different areas of magic.
3) To give them a continual advancement path, so players don't
feel that their character is stagnating.

luke
Message no. 5
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Initiate Powers
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 15:02:08 +1100
Luke Kendall writes:

> > After say, grade 10 (So everything starts at 11), the initiate begins to
> > be able to handle drain easier. [... for one spell per extra grade ...]
>
> !!!
> That's a really gross advantage. On the other hand, a level 11 initiate
> should be pretty awesome. Hmm...

Yreah, but they'll be pretty darn tough and nasty as it is though.

> I hate the idea of allowing teleport to a PC, and even to most NPCs.
> H is okay, and I agree that their should be rules to govern them,
> even if no player will ever achieve such awesome levels.

I personally don't see why rules are neccessary for something like this. It
isn't as if it'll be neccessary or anything. An ability such as this one
would really not be used for anything other than a plot device, to aid in
the story line, and no PCs ever going to get it, so I wouldn't bother with a
rule.

> By the way, the motivation for these extra rules are:
>
> 1) To come up with rules that can explain the higher abilities
> of various NPCs.
> 2) To encourage mages to be more distinctive, through a sort of
> specialisation in different areas of magic.
> 3) To give them a continual advancement path, so players don't
> feel that their character is stagnating.
4) To compensate for all the other negatives you've aplied to magicians?

No, seriously. I thought that you thought magicians were powerful enough as
it was. Too powerful. And you've changed a few things to make them less
nasty, and now you're going and undoing it all again. For the first point,
I'd say it isn't needed, the second sounds pretty cool to me, although I
don't really see why it can't be done as things are, and the third I disagree
with, since mages have by far the largest variety of advancement of all
character types - what does your sammie do after he's got 0 essence? while
mages have many many things to go and spend karma on and keep advancing.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 6
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Initiate Powers
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 17:10:44 +1100
Damion Milliken writes:

> I personally don't see why rules are neccessary for something like
> [teleport]. It isn't as if it'll be neccessary or anything.

It's only of use to the GM. It means he can reason logically about things,
and make sure everything makes sense.

> No, seriously. I thought that you thought magicians were powerful enough as
> it was. Too powerful. And you've changed a few things to make them less
> nasty, and now you're going and undoing it all again.

True. But I'm not the one proposing these rules; we're going to discuss them
tomorrow night. It was simply a coincidence - we're considering them, and
Erik Jameson asked about the same subject.

I'm very ambivalent about them, for all the reasons you outlined.

luke
Message no. 7
From: Martin Steffens <BDI05626@***.RHIJ.NL>
Subject: Re: Initiate powers
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 11:44:13 +0100
Stefan writes:
> The calculation of the mass of karma points you need to reach the
> 10th grade (not to speak of grade 50) makes my head ache

To relieve you of your headache here are the numbers:
For group initiates using the ordeal option the karma costs for grade
10 are 169 points; for grade 20, 491 points and last but not least to
reach grade 50 you need 2405 points.
The numbers for self-initiation and no ordeal are 315 for grade 10;
930 karma for grade 20 and (taadaa) a mindboggling total of +-
4750 karma for grade 50 (I lost count somewhere so its + or - 25
karma).
As most characters I use spend about 50% of their karma on initiation
this would mean an increase of 100% in the numbers above.
Now if you look at the reputation rules (black book p. 199) In my
opinion this means that PC of this level will be to visible and need
to retire (look what happened to Naill from Nosferatu to see what I
mean).

I like to use the rules proposed for NPC's however.

Fael Inis <aka Martin Steffens>

Further Reading

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