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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Initiates and a <possibly> sore subject
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:42:54 +0000
Ok, everyone, having seen the subject of Grounding through
Quickenings come up again, I have a question. This is not an attempt
to start a debate. I understand that at this point it is the GM's
option to allow it or not. I have read the arguements on both sides,
so do not reiterate them. My question assumes that you CAN and is
as follows:

Seeing as quickening a spell is a metamagical ability of initiates,
should grounding through them be allowed by non-initiates? It seems
that a "quickening" would be a foreign object (for lack of a better
term) to a non-initiate, so why should they be allowed to "use" it?

And I feel the same about the other metamagic abilities as well. Why
should a non-initiate be able to penetrate a masking? How could they
possibly understand the process and the magical energies involved? Or
an anchoring for that matter? I don't know, but it seems to me like
initiate should stand out as more powerful than the average Joe-mage.

I always thought that an initiate was special, that their higher
connection with the magical energies set them apart. But if they can
be nailed by any kid with a Magic Rating something is wrong.

Can anybody comment on this?

Thanks.





====DREKHEAD==============================================================
Tim Kerby | Never relax. Your run may be over, but someone,
drekhead@***.net |somewhere, is just starting his and the target
drekhead@***.com | could be you.
drekhead@*******.com | ---http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html---
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Message no. 2
From: Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Initiates and a <possibly> sore subject
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 13:17:14 -0800
As you say, it can be a touchy subject here. (I have no idea
/why/, but it is.) So, I'll avoid saying which way I use and say
this instead:

From a game-balance standpoint, very little (if anything) gets
"broken" or unbalanced no matter if you let grounding thru quickened
spells occur or not. The same goes for "partial" allowance (like not
letting non-initiates do it). So, there's no risk of completely messing
up your game with undesirable results based on this one decision.

The "official" rules are vague and incomplete on the subject. Since
it doesn't screw up a game either way, go with what you /feel/ is
right.

- Brett
Message no. 3
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Initiates and a <possibly> sore subject
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:18:39 +0000
On 1 Apr 97 at 13:17, Brett Barksdale wrote:

> The "official" rules are vague and incomplete on the subject. Since
> it doesn't screw up a game either way, go with what you /feel/ is
> right.

I explained that I don't care either way, and that I will play it how
I wanted to, I just wanted the parties that argued before on the
grounding thru quickenings to comment on this aspect of it. I am
curious at their thoughts; and yours as well. Just make the same
basic assumption that I did in my opening statement. Assume you can.
Then what?

Even if you believe you can't, I still want you all to comment on the
other aspects of the metamagical abilities in regard to
non-initiates.

Thanks again.



====DREKHEAD==============================================================
Tim Kerby | Never relax. Your run may be over, but someone,
drekhead@***.net |somewhere, is just starting his and the target
drekhead@***.com | could be you.
drekhead@*******.com | ---http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html---
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V? PS+ PE++ Y PGP- t++>$ 5 X+ R+ tv+ b++ DI++(+) D++ G e>++ h--- r+++ y+++
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Message no. 4
From: Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Initiates and a <possibly> sore subject
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 14:56:13 -0800
>> The "official" rules are vague and incomplete on the subject. Since
>> it doesn't screw up a game either way, go with what you /feel/ is
>> right.

>I explained that I don't care either way, and that I will play it how
>I wanted to, I just wanted the parties that argued before on the
>grounding thru quickenings to comment on this aspect of it. I am
>curious at their thoughts; and yours as well. Just make the same
>basic assumption that I did in my opening statement. Assume you can.
>Then what?
>
>Even if you believe you can't, I still want you all to comment on the
>other aspects of the metamagical abilities in regard to
>non-initiates.

I don't think you understand. Most of us /don't want/ to discuss the
aspects of grounding at all. As soon as one person posts their views,
you get someone /else/ posting /theirs/, and then the Great Grounding
War begins again. A lot of the veterans here have an unspoken agreement
that we're just not going to talk about It (TM) anymore.

If anyone else wants to talk about it, knock yourselves out. Sorry, but
I, personally, have got nothing to say /BUT/ "make your own choices" when
it comes to grounding.

Now, as far as the other metamagical abilities w/ regard to non-initiates,
what exactly is there to discuss? Non-initiates can't DO metamagic - by
definition. So, you're stuck with discussing: what can they do against
another person's metamagic? This, too, is pretty cut-and-dry (as far
as the SRII rules go).

Dispelling: They can't. And they can't do anything to prevent someone else
from trying to dispel their own stuff.
Quickening: They can't. And if they want to get rid of a quickened effect,
they needed to go astral and fight the effect there. This is
especially dangerous if it's a force 6 spell effect that had
double-karma pumped into it. (Ouch! :-)
Centering: They can't. And they can't prevent with anyone else's centering.
Anchoring: Again, they can go astral and fight it out there.
Masking: I can't remember? Can non-initiates see thru a mask? At any rate,
it's a real cut-and-dry procedure - not really worthy of a lot of
discussion.
Shielding: Again, a non-initiate can't do this and they can't really do anything
to interfere with someone else who is.

I guess I don't understand what you're looking for. Please give a specific
example.

- Brett
Message no. 5
From: "Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Initiates and a <possibly> sore subject
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 17:12:56 -0600
On 02:56 PM 4/1/97 -0800, Brett Barksdale screamed at the world:
>Now, as far as the other metamagical abilities w/ regard to non-initiates,
>what exactly is there to discuss? Non-initiates can't DO metamagic - by
>definition. So, you're stuck with discussing: what can they do against
>another person's metamagic? This, too, is pretty cut-and-dry (as far
>as the SRII rules go).

>Masking: I can't remember? Can non-initiates see thru a mask? At any rate,
> it's a real cut-and-dry procedure - not really worthy of a lot of
> discussion.

Non-initiates can't see through a mask according to the Grimoire. Only
Level 0 initiates and higher can try to see through one. But a question is
- if the initiate is knocked out, is the mask dropped? This is something
that came up in the middle of an encounter last weekend*, and my quick
ruling was yes, a non-initiate will be able to see the k.o.ed mage's real
aura. The only problem was the Grimmy didn't specifically say that (or it
did, and I just missed it.)

*I guess Bill now knows a bit more about the woman Hong Lang and
Queensryche captured.



-Thomas Deeny
telltale.hart.org

"You have selected regicide. If you know the name of the king or queen
being murdered, press one."
-Springfield Police Department Resc-u-Fone Voice Mail, "Bart of
Darkness",
The Simpsons.
Message no. 6
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Initiates and a <possibly> sore subject
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 08:03:23 -0500
Faux Pas (Thomas) wrote:

<Snip>

> Non-initiates can't see through a mask according to the Grimoire. Only
> Level 0 initiates and higher can try to see through one. But a question is
> - if the initiate is knocked out, is the mask dropped? This is something
> that came up in the middle of an encounter last weekend*, and my quick
> ruling was yes, a non-initiate will be able to see the k.o.ed mage's real
> aura. The only problem was the Grimmy didn't specifically say that (or it
> did, and I just missed it.)

<Snip>

Actually, I tend to rule the other way. Since there are two "levels" or
"degrees" of masking, I view it like this: Masking doesn't require any
concentration to maintain, therefore when you go unconscious, you are
still masked. *Active* Masking, on the other hand, I believe requires
some concentration (but not enough to apply a +2 modifier). I am not
sure what benefits you get from Actively Masking, but if there are any,
I would say those benefits would be lost when unconscious, but standard
Masking would still be in place.

Justin :)
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 7
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Initiates and a <possibly> sore subject
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 18:54:31 +0100
|
|As you say, it can be a touchy subject here. (I have no idea
|/why/, but it is.) So, I'll avoid saying which way I use and say
|this instead:

The reason it is, is because over the past 3 years (or more), it's been
recycled, re-hashed and re-argued so many time, some of us have lost
count....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Initiates and a <possibly> sore subject
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 19:00:54 +0100
|Masking: I can't remember? Can non-initiates see thru a mask? At any rate,
| it's a real cut-and-dry procedure - not really worthy of a lot of
| discussion.

No non-initiate can penetrate masking, and an INITIATE of lower level than
the masker has immense trouble as well.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 9
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Initiates and a <possibly> sore subject
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:38:04 GMT
Justin Pinnow writes
>
> > Non-initiates can't see through a mask according to the Grimoire. Only
> > Level 0 initiates and higher can try to see through one. But a question is
> > - if the initiate is knocked out, is the mask dropped? This is something
> > that came up in the middle of an encounter last weekend*, and my quick
> > ruling was yes, a non-initiate will be able to see the k.o.ed mage's real
> > aura. The only problem was the Grimmy didn't specifically say that (or it
> > did, and I just missed it.)
>
> Actually, I tend to rule the other way. Since there are two "levels" or
> "degrees" of masking, I view it like this: Masking doesn't require any
> concentration to maintain, therefore when you go unconscious, you are
> still masked.
I agree, i also rate aura afer death the same as the last thing it
was set to before, the Grimoire implies this power works all the time
and you simply could not run it like that if any concentration was
required.

> *Active* Masking, on the other hand, I believe requires
> some concentration (but not enough to apply a +2 modifier).
It certainly does, no +2 but it is a magically exclusive ability, you
cannot make ANY other active use of magic while using it.

> I am not
> sure what benefits you get from Actively Masking,
it counters successes made by someone tryng to notice you masking, it
use is for things like getting past security, hey i'm mundane
honest!, when you need every bit of stealth you can get and it you
get caught lack of defenses against a suprise attack really isn't a
penalty you are so fragged if you get attacked anyway

> but if there are any,
> I would say those benefits would be lost when unconscious, but standard
> Masking would still be in place.
>
i agree.

Mark

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