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Message no. 1
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 19:37:55 +1000
Hey, if a mage is intiated at over 1st level, and he/she goes out and gets
wired reflexes 3 and muscle replacement 2, s/he'll have 0 essence, and at
least 1 magic. Is this right, does it figure? You have absolutely no
"humanity" left in you, yet you still command powerful (If you were high
enough initiate leve) arcane forces.

Damion
Message no. 2
From: "J.W.Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 13:24:57 +0100
>
> Hey, if a mage is intiated at over 1st level, and he/she goes out and gets
> wired reflexes 3 and muscle replacement 2, s/he'll have 0 essence, and at
> least 1 magic. Is this right, does it figure? You have absolutely no
> "humanity" left in you, yet you still command powerful (If you were high
> enough initiate leve) arcane forces.
>
> Damion
>
<CHOP>
but you'd be dead.

cybernetics effecting your humanity and mental balance is CP2020

CHOPPER
Message no. 3
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 23:19:01 +1000
><CHOP>
> but you'd be dead.
>
> cybernetics effecting your humanity and mental balance is CP2020
>
> CHOPPER

No, your not dead 'till you get negative essence.
Essence is defined as "a measure of the soundness of the central nervous
system and spirit" and its says that magic declines that at the same rate as
essence. Therefore if I was a lvl 1 initiate, with 0 essence, I would have a
phuqued central nervous system and a similarly conditioned spirit, yet still
be able to use magic.

Damion
Message no. 4
From: "J.W.Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 14:26:08 +0100
We play death from lifeforce collapse on essence 0

players always try to go as low as possible without hitting the
big ZERO.

CHOPPER
Message no. 5
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 1994 00:33:32 +1000
> We play death from lifeforce collapse on essence 0
>
> players always try to go as low as possible without hitting the
> big ZERO.
>
> CHOPPER

By the book you can have 0, but your way it would still be possible to have
under 1 essence and have a magic attribute.

Damion
Message no. 6
From: Christopher Higgins <as812@*******.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 12:55:20 -0400
>
>No, your not dead 'till you get negative essence.
>Essence is defined as "a measure of the soundness of the central nervous
>system and spirit" and its says that magic declines that at the same rate as
>essence. Therefore if I was a lvl 1 initiate, with 0 essence, I would have a
>phuqued central nervous system and a similarly conditioned spirit, yet still
>be able to use magic.
>
>Damion
>
Sounds quite ridiculous to me. You're right, the mage would not die
however, there are so many other problems that you'd be wasting your time
playing such a character. Where, oh where do I start?
1> Spells- You can't cast them unless you don't mind Force 1 spells or
lots of Physical Drain. You could change that....
2> Foci- A Rating 5 Power Foci could solve your problems and bring you
back to novice power level. Unfortunately, you'd have to buy it 'cause
unless you're a pro enchanter you're not making any Orichalcum to help
bring down the T#'s and the Karma cost. But there are other problems...
3> Magic Pool- pg.85 states that the max. number of Magic pool dice
available to a mage in any given test is equal to his/her Magic attribute
which was a 1. So forget the foci, you need some initiation quickly. While
we're on the topic of initiation....
4> Geasa- You may or may not have access to the Grimoire but if you
do, you'd better look at page 52. Your mage must take geasa, three, in fact
because the way of the burn-out means total burn-out for your mage. So
while you're getting initiated, you'd better try to remove those geasa.
Unfortunately, you're looking at a T# of Will(12) just to remove one <G>.
If you can manage that, let's have a look at .....
5> Metamagic- If you get that Power Foci, you're a walking target but
you already know that. You could try to mask the Foci but the T# for an
opponent to see through your mask is your Magic attribute which is a 1.
Well, since we're on the topic, let's discuss....
6> The Astral Plane- Firstly, since you have no Essence, you can't go.
Surprising but pg 146 states clearly, " The physical body loses 1 point of
Essence for every hour the magician is astrally gallivanting. If the
Essence falls below 0, the magician dies." So I suppose you could go, just
don't lose track of time.
There are so many other topics I could discuss but I'm beginning to
feel as though I'm wasting my time with such a ridiculous subject. To make
a long story short, your mage would be quite useful until another mage
shows up. A real mage would knock yours on his ass so many times, he'd
wind up in the hospital with a crushed tailbone. In addition, a real sam
probably wouldn't waste the time to geek you.
If you want cyberware, play a sam. If you want spells, play a mage.
Don't sit on the fence because there's a lot of runners on either side who
are ready, willing and more than able to blow your ass off it <G>.
Christopher Higgins

P.S. Have a nice day
Message no. 7
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 10:12:53 -0700
On Fri, 10 Jun 1994, MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:

> Hey, if a mage is intiated at over 1st level, and he/she goes out and gets
> wired reflexes 3 and muscle replacement 2, s/he'll have 0 essence, and at
> least 1 magic. Is this right, does it figure? You have absolutely no

Yes, it's right. Yes, it does figure.

> "humanity" left in you, yet you still command powerful (If you were high
> enough initiate leve) arcane forces.

So what does humanity have to do with magic? This is the 6th world, if
the mage has a connection to the Astral, they can throw anything they
want to. Null sheen, right?

> Damion

The mage's humanity has nothing at all to do with their magical ability.
The only thing that counts is their Magic level. And Initiation will let
a mage with no Essence at all cast magic.

It's a neat idea, from my POV.

Ivy
Message no. 8
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 10:55:53 -0700
On Fri, 10 Jun 1994, MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:

> ><CHOP>
> > but you'd be dead.
> >
> > cybernetics effecting your humanity and mental balance is CP2020
> >
> > CHOPPER
>
> No, your not dead 'till you get negative essence.

Wired Reflexes 3 = 5 Essence. Muscle Replacement 2 = 2 Essence. 2 + 5 = 7.
6 - 7 = -1. -1 Essence means that you are dead.

> Essence is defined as "a measure of the soundness of the central nervous
> system and spirit" and its says that magic declines that at the same rate as
> essence. Therefore if I was a lvl 1 initiate, with 0 essence, I would have a
> phuqued central nervous system and a similarly conditioned spirit, yet still
> be able to use magic.
>
> Damion

I just answered your question before, but. Yes, the character is past
worrying about mundane things. And with a negative Essence the spirit
breaks up immediately after death too. Gone!

Ivy
Message no. 9
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 15:35:30 -0400
On Fri, 10 Jun 1994, MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:

> Hey, if a mage is intiated at over 1st level, and he/she goes out and gets
> wired reflexes 3 and muscle replacement 2, s/he'll have 0 essence, and at
> least 1 magic.

And no matter what their magic attribute is that mage would be DEAD..when
you reach 0 essence that is what happens
-------------------GRANITE
Message no. 10
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 11:02:56 -0700
On Fri, 10 Jun 1994, J.W.Thomas wrote:

> We play death from lifeforce collapse on essence 0

Yo, Chop! Ya might wanna take a boo at SRII pg. 246, right under the
Bolded and Boosted CYBERWARE. The Character can live (if you call it
that) at 0 Essence. Mine don't try, but it can be done.

> players always try to go as low as possible without hitting the
> big ZERO.
>
> CHOPPER
>

You just can't go below zero. Which is what his problem was. The Wired
Reflexes cost 5, the Muscle Replacement cost 2, and that's one too many.

Ivy
Message no. 11
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 17:08:20 -0400
On Fri, 10 Jun 1994, MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:

> ><CHOP>
> > but you'd be dead.
^> >
> > cybernetics effecting your humanity and mental balance is CP2020
> > CHOPPER
> No, your not dead 'till you get negative essence.

Except it is impossible to reach a negative essence rating..check pg 43
under cyberware, second para last sentence..Characters can never have an
Essence Rating less than 0.

While the book doesn't come out and say it uncommon sense tells me the
reason nobody can reduce Essence beyond 0 is that is the point where the
person died...No Essence no life...
----------------GRANITE
Message no. 12
From: Will Cottrell <UGCOTTRE@******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 17:28:37 EDT
I'm pretty sure that all of us agree that the lower the essence the less
sociable the character.

On this topic I'd like to say one thing...

M. Archer, Here is your "God-Mage"!

Will
Message no. 13
From: "S.K. Khoo" <S.K.Khoo@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 1994 10:32:15 +0100
On Fri, 10 Jun 1994, Chopper typed ...

> We play death from lifeforce collapse on essence 0
> players always try to go as low as possible without hitting the
> big ZERO.

Have to go with this one, Damion; I think the generally accepted
mark of "lifeforce collapse" as Chooper puts it is 0 essence - we used to
have sammis running around with 0.0125 essence but if they ever reached zero
.... they be dead. :)
Message no. 14
From: "S.K. Khoo" <S.K.Khoo@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 1994 10:52:51 +0100
> By the book you can have 0, but your way it would still be possible to have
> under 1 essence and have a magic attribute.

Exactly. I think anyone who has only under 1 essence doesn't have the
"sopiritual" (call it what you will) bond with, er, "nature" (again,
call it
what you will) and things magical. :) So, still have to agree with Chopper.
Message no. 15
From: "S.K. Khoo" <S.K.Khoo@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 1994 11:09:49 +0100
On Fri, 10 Jun 1994, C. Paul Douglas wrote:

> Except it is impossible to reach a negative essence rating..check pg 43
> under cyberware, second para last sentence..Characters can never have an
> Essence Rating less than 0.

Oh, dear, must have missed that page - okay, Damion, disregard
previous post about people dying upon raeching 0 essence. :)
Message no. 16
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 1994 07:44:40 -0700
On Sat, 11 Jun 1994, S.K. Khoo wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Jun 1994, C. Paul Douglas wrote:
>
> > Except it is impossible to reach a negative essence rating..check pg 43
> > under cyberware, second para last sentence..Characters can never have an
> > Essence Rating less than 0.
>
> Oh, dear, must have missed that page - okay, Damion, disregard
> previous post about people dying upon raeching 0 essence. :)

Ummmm, pardon me, but taking pg. 43 along with pg. 246 (both under the
"Cyberware" headings) it seems clear to me that the reason a character
cannot go below 0 Essence from cyberware is that anyone whose Essence
drops below 0 dies immediately.

Also, a mage whose Essence is 0 cannot go onto the Astral plane at all.
A mage can last on the Astral for (Essence) hours. If Essence = 0 then
their time on the Astral = 0 also. If they leave their meat body, it
dies. This would also be true for the sammi who takes advantage of a
Spirit's Astral Gateway power.

Ivy
Message no. 17
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 1994 01:19:24 +1000
Will writes:
> On this topic I'd like to say one thing...
>
> M. Archer, Here is your "God-Mage"!
>
> Will

I wouldn't think so, like someone said before, the mage would suck. There
would be little use in having such a charcter.

Damion

PS Although I remember someone mentioning that a shaman in their game went
out and got wired reflexes 2, so maybe not?
Message no. 18
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 1994 13:26:30 -0400
On Sat, 11 Jun 1994, Ivy Ryan wrote:
> Also, a mage whose Essence is 0 cannot go onto the Astral plane at all.
> A mage can last on the Astral for (Essence) hours. If Essence = 0 then
> their time on the Astral = 0 also. If they leave their meat body, it
> dies. This would also be true for the sammi who takes advantage of a
> Spirit's Astral Gateway power.
>
> Ivy
>
A VERY good point Ivy...
---------------GRANITE
Message no. 19
From: Will Cottrell <UGCOTTRE@******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 1994 13:22:25 EDT
I apologize for a mis understanding:

Myself;
"M. Archer, here's your 'God-Mage'!"
M. Damion;
"...The mage would suck..."

I meant that the Mage would be so withdrawn from "sanity" that the mage
would have a God Complex not have the power of a god.
I agree that the mage would be a wimp but not in his own mentality.

Sorry for the mix-up,
Will
Message no. 20
From: Christopher Higgins <as812@*******.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 1994 16:38:21 -0400
>
>Will writes:
>> On this topic I'd like to say one thing...
>>
>> M. Archer, Here is your "God-Mage"!
>>
>> Will
>
>I wouldn't think so, like someone said before, the mage would suck. There
>would be little use in having such a charcter.
>
>Damion
>
>PS Although I remember someone mentioning that a shaman in their game went
>out and got wired reflexes 2, so maybe not?
>
At an Essence cost of 3, it's costly but feasible. All of the problems
I mentioned would still apply (Geasa, Spells, Magic Pool, etc.), they just
would not be as exaggerated as with the mage you tossed out for
discussion. The +4 react. and +2d6 init. would be tempting but in a
situation like that I would think that Initiation would be the next thing
on the wish list. Replace those lost Magic points and dump that Geasa! I
hate Geasa; what a pain in the ass, I'm not sure that I could take one
voluntarily.
Christopher Higgins
Message no. 21
From: Chris Lubrecht <lubrecht@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 1994 16:40:40 -0400
On Sat, 11 Jun 1994, S.K. Khoo wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Jun 1994, Chopper typed ...
>
> > We play death from lifeforce collapse on essence 0
> > players always try to go as low as possible without hitting the
> > big ZERO.
>
> Have to go with this one, Damion; I think the generally accepted
> mark of "lifeforce collapse" as Chooper puts it is 0 essence - we used to
> have sammis running around with 0.0125 essence but if they ever reached zero
> .... they be dead. :)
>

question, (i lost a whole lotta posts, so I don't know if this was
brought up), doesn't the sammie archtype in SR II have a 0 essence?

nigel
Message no. 22
From: Kyle L Kohler <bandit@********.UCR.EDU>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 1994 14:41:45 -0700
Yes, he does, and I don't think the designers would let you start
out the game as a dead person. So I guess the official rules go with the
idea that a 0 essence stil allows life while anything less will kill ya.
Although each GM can tweak the rules as desired (that's the way RPG's are
designed, keep what you want, edit/ignore what you don't like).

The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again!/Ha-Ha...errrr...still trying to get
that new .sig


> question, (i lost a whole lotta posts, so I don't know if this was
> brought up), doesn't the sammie archtype in SR II have a 0 essence?
>
> nigel
Message no. 23
From: James A Riegel <riegelja@*******.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 1994 20:41:01 -0400
> Have to go with this one, Damion; I think the generally accepted
> mark of "lifeforce collapse" as Chooper puts it is 0 essence - we used to
> have sammis running around with 0.0125 essence but if they ever reached zero
> .... they be dead. :)
>

I'm still going with the concept that 0 is a perfectly acceptable essence
number. Sure, your best friend is your pocket secretary, and you make Lt.
Cmdr. Data look like Jackie O'Nassus, but your alive. If you get hit with one
little essence drainer, you are very very fragged, but yer alive till it
happens. Citing an example, the Troll Street Samurai. I believe it is in SSC,
but I have it right here from Contacts (came with the gm screen). p. 13.
Essence 0. Muscle rep, 4 and Wired Reflexes 1. Essence cost = 4 + 2 = 6. He
looks pretty healthy to me.

there is also another case using again, a dreaded nasty should be torn
apart and burned archetype. In the Black book, p. 62. Street Samurai
Archetype. Course, his essence is actually -.9, so we will ignore that case.
To be fair though, all the groups I've ever been in with all the GM's tend to
put a stop to munchkining yer essence down that low. Anything below 1.1 is
begging for a nasty little para to suck you dry before you know what is
happening. we like to be more skill oriented than "I can shoot a bullet up a
fly's behind with my eyes closed and from behind a wall...etc." Basically
because our style tends to be a little bit less fighting oriented. The whole
point in most our runs is "If you shoot, the run went bad."

Dolly Madison -- Bartender/Owner of the Table 12
Message no. 24
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 1994 19:27:59 -0700
On Sat, 11 Jun 1994, Kyle L Kohler wrote:

> Yes, he does, and I don't think the designers would let you start
> out the game as a dead person. So I guess the official rules go with the
> idea that a 0 essence stil allows life while anything less will kill ya.
> Although each GM can tweak the rules as desired (that's the way RPG's are
> designed, keep what you want, edit/ignore what you don't like).
>
> The Smiling Bandit <Strikes Again!/Ha-Ha...errrr...still trying to get
> that new .sig
>
>
> > question, (i lost a whole lotta posts, so I don't know if this was
> > brought up), doesn't the sammie archtype in SR II have a 0 essence?
> >
> > nigel
>
Actually, he really has 0.1 Essence left. After the Errata, that is.
What he is missing is 2 Attribute points. He had to start with
Attributes = A, Resources = B, Skills = C, Race = D and Magic = E and he
only got 28 points of Attributes.

Oh yes, his cyber. Cyber-eyes with Low-Light = 0.2, Retractable Hand
Razors = 0.2, Smartlink = 0.5, Dermal Armor 2 = 1, Wired Reflexes 2 = 3
and Muscle Replacement 1 = 1 for a total of 5.9 Essence lost.

I wish they'd get these guys right for once!

Ivy
Message no. 25
From: "S.K. Khoo" <S.K.Khoo@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: initiates with 0 essence
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 1994 16:20:37 +0100
On Sat, 11 Jun 1994, Chris Lubrecht wrote:

> question, (i lost a whole lotta posts, so I don't know if this was
> brought up), doesn't the sammie archtype in SR II have a 0 essence?

Mmm, don't think so - I don't have the book with me at the moment but
I seem to remember the archtype given in the rule book as having something like
zero point something essence ... check it out. :)

Further Reading

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Thwap!