Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Initiation Advancement (Re: Foretelling)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:51:32 EST
In a message dated 97-12-26 14:45:23 EST, decker@****.FSU.EDU writes:

> > And that's not even counting the "known" Metamagics....
>
> heh..I didn't say it would be pretty. Arguments have constantly been
> thrown back and forth, and most agree initiation gives you
> too much power all at once. House rules abound for fixing this.
> If SR3 makes more metamagics, it will only add fuel to the fire.
> Besides, I've had several fun adventures just watching a character
> trying to find someone to teach him some of teh cooler metamagic
> techniques.
>
Okay then, how about taking Mike's Mechanics to the limit if we can. An
Initiate Group can have a "design system", in which it is decided which
abilities can and cannot be obtained within that group. This in turn would
fluctuate the initial contact cost. Perhaps it would also give the "join up
karma fee" a new twist. A set couple of points that must be paid even before
the actually act of initiation begins.

Each of the Metamagics could be worth a given value to the "Design Cost" and
extra abilities would have costs as well, similar to how Mike designed the
Mechanics (Edges and Flaws sort of thing).

Initiating Alone could be done similarly also, with the Edges/Flaws of the
individual's own initiation (for the Self Initiaters here) could modify the
cost for the Initiation Advancement.

For example:

Base Initiation as it stands now is (without any modifiers) "6 + Target Grade"
x 3. Perhaps a modifier could be thrown into the initial part. Say the "6" is
for the baser Metamagics of Anchoring, Quickening; Centering, Masking,
Shielding, and Dispelling (6 talents). Additional abilities would actually
add to the "6". In this case, we have an additional Metamagical Ability
referred to as "Channeling". It would modify the "6" to a
"7". Tricks such
as "Reflective Shielding" are just using Shielding in a particular manner.
How about "Threading" (stealing from ED here) as another one (we have this in
ours already). It would then make the "7" into an "8" (of course
assuming all
the Metamagics have equal value, just unequal development). This group,
without anything else, would have a base cost of 24 points to go from Grade 0
to Grade 1, without Group Reduction or Ordeals (Modifier Reduction).
"Initiated Flaws" (similar to Disadvantages for Shamans really) would be
"Advancement Modifiers" in this case.

There guys, this works. We've been doing it for years now actually.

Enjoy it while you can....

-K
Message no. 2
From: Brian Moore <mooreb@*****.FAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Initiation Advancement (Re: Foretelling)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 17:29:08 -0500
Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM> said:
> ...
> For example:
>
> Base Initiation as it stands now is (without any modifiers) "6 + Target
Grade"
> x 3. Perhaps a modifier could be thrown into the initial part. Say the "6"
is
> for the baser Metamagics of Anchoring, Quickening; Centering, Masking,
> Shielding, and Dispelling (6 talents). Additional abilities would actually
> add to the "6". In this case, we have an additional Metamagical Ability
> referred to as "Channeling". It would modify the "6" to a
"7"...

How do you handle the fact that some Metamagical Abilities are one-shot
things that you learn and never advance with? For example, Quickening
doesn't increase as your Initiate level increases (IIRC). On the other
hand, Shielding does. A Karma-conserving mage would join a group that
had LOTS of abilities just to learn them, and then join a different
group to advance Shielding and Masking (IIRC the only abilities that
are based on initiate grade).

--
Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-
Message no. 3
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Initiation Advancement (Re: Foretelling)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:19:50 EST
In a message dated 97-12-27 17:32:41 EST, mooreb@*****.FAC.COM writes:

> How do you handle the fact that some Metamagical Abilities are one-shot
> things that you learn and never advance with? For example, Quickening
> doesn't increase as your Initiate level increases (IIRC). On the other
> hand, Shielding does. A Karma-conserving mage would join a group that
> had LOTS of abilities just to learn them, and then join a different
> group to advance Shielding and Masking (IIRC the only abilities that
> are based on initiate grade).
>
This is really two questions.

We have altered things a bit in our games concerning Quickenings and the
like....the highest force spell cannot exceed the Grade of the Magician in
question. We used the concept of "Dispelling" as a basis for the argument.

The second one concerns being in multiple groups. We've been treating it like
people now treat being in multiple Karmic Team Pools. Being in one group is
one thing, karma costs do not alter in any way other than for Initiation Grade
Advancement. However, being "recognized" in more than one group for being a
grade that "Group A might accept, but Group B says BS about" is another
matter. We require the individual to spend an amount of karma equal to the
target grade paid to each group other than that group the person did the
advancement with as a sort of "Appeasement" to the groups AC.

That Help explain a few things?

-K
Message no. 4
From: AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Initiation Advancement (Re: Foretelling)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:16:04 EST
In a message dated 97-12-27 17:30:24 EST, mooreb@*****.FAC.COM writes:

> How do you handle the fact that some Metamagical Abilities are one-shot
> things that you learn and never advance with? For example, Quickening
> doesn't increase as your Initiate level increases (IIRC). On the other
> hand, Shielding does. A Karma-conserving mage would join a group that
> had LOTS of abilities just to learn them, and then join a different
> group to advance Shielding and Masking (IIRC the only abilities that
> are based on initiate grade).
>
Okay, time to settle some issues stated above ...

1. Shielding is nothing more than dice assigned from your Magic Pool for the
purposes of Shielding. This means that a Grade 0 initiate with a Magic Pool
of 20 has up to 20 dice for their Shielding, and only by increasing the Magic
Pool by taking the Sorcery skill up or getting enchantments that increase the
Magic Pool will the pool ever increase.

2. Masking, once learned is always there ...

As for why to join a group, there are several reasons ...

1. For the reduced karma cost involved in initiating as a group ...

2. By sharing the experience you have when going up in grade you spread ideas
and inspirations ... doing something alone is not as rewarding as doing
something with more than one person, and especially when one is among friends
hopefully ...

Mike
Message no. 5
From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Initiation Advancement (Re: Foretelling)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:44:16 +0000
On Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:16:04 AirWisp sent

> In a message dated 97-12-27 17:30:24 EST, mooreb@*****.FAC.COM writes:
>
> > How do you handle the fact that some Metamagical Abilities are one-shot
> > things that you learn and never advance with? For example, Quickening
> > doesn't increase as your Initiate level increases (IIRC). On the other
> > hand, Shielding does. A Karma-conserving mage would join a group that
> > had LOTS of abilities just to learn them, and then join a different
> > group to advance Shielding and Masking (IIRC the only abilities that
> > are based on initiate grade).
> >
> Okay, time to settle some issues stated above ...
>
> 1. Shielding is nothing more than dice assigned from your Magic Pool for the
> purposes of Shielding. This means that a Grade 0 initiate with a Magic Pool
> of 20 has up to 20 dice for their Shielding, and only by increasing the Magic
> Pool by taking the Sorcery skill up or getting enchantments that increase the
> Magic Pool will the pool ever increase.

Don't forget the Shielding pool which is equal to the initiate grade
and useable for nothing else.
Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612
Message no. 6
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Initiation Advancement (Re: Foretelling)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:09:37 EST
In a message dated 97-12-28 00:17:49 EST, AirWisp@***.COM writes:

> Okay, time to settle some issues stated above ...

Oh geesh, here's comes that foot now ;)

> 1. Shielding is nothing more than dice assigned from your Magic Pool for
> the
> purposes of Shielding. This means that a Grade 0 initiate with a Magic
Pool
> of 20 has up to 20 dice for their Shielding, and only by increasing the
> Magic
> Pool by taking the Sorcery skill up or getting enchantments that increase
> the
> Magic Pool will the pool ever increase.

Wrong Again, read carefully, the Grade of the Initiate also determines the
number of shielding dice. It is Grade Related. Also, Reflective Shielding
(the trick of Shielding) is using only Shielding Dice, which in the games here
that I used to run (yep, I am no longer GMing at home...the PBEM is it now)
meant -only- the "Shields" due to Grade. Keeps the power going...Centering
was allowable, but hey, I like Centering...

> 2. Masking, once learned is always there ...

I wonder if with a "Control Thoughts" or "Influence" that could be
changed?

> As for why to join a group, there are several reasons ...
>
> 1. For the reduced karma cost involved in initiating as a group ...

Which is the reason most people want in...all they see are the numbers...

> 2. By sharing the experience you have when going up in grade you spread
> ideas
> and inspirations ... doing something alone is not as rewarding as doing
> something with more than one person, and especially when one is among
> friends
> hopefully ...

Yeah, but that idea is an entire other thread...hey, does that mean I know
"Threading"?????????

> Mike

-K
Message no. 7
From: AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Initiation Advancement (Re: Foretelling)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:05:40 EST
In a message dated 97-12-28 07:46:33 EST, you write:

> > 1. Shielding is nothing more than dice assigned from your Magic Pool for
> the
> > purposes of Shielding. This means that a Grade 0 initiate with a Magic
> Pool
> > of 20 has up to 20 dice for their Shielding, and only by increasing the
> Magic
> > Pool by taking the Sorcery skill up or getting enchantments that increase
> the
> > Magic Pool will the pool ever increase.
>
> Don't forget the Shielding pool which is equal to the initiate grade
> and useable for nothing else.
>
Okay, two more things about Shielding that alao has to be mentioned ...

1. The maximum number of Shielding that an initiate can spread around is
equal to their Magic Pool plus Initiate Grade ...

2. An initiate can not use both Shielding and normal Spell Defense at the
same time.

The information on Shielding is found on page 45 of the Grimoire (Second Ed.).

Mike
Message no. 8
From: Brian Moore <mooreb@*****.FAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Initiation Advancement (Re: Foretelling)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:16:54 -0500
Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM> said:
> ...
> We have altered things a bit in our games concerning Quickenings and the
> like....the highest force spell cannot exceed the Grade of the Magician in
> question. We used the concept of "Dispelling" as a basis for the argument.

That sounds reasonable. Still, most Quickenings are either low Force
(if it goes away, I'll spend another 1 karma on it), or high Force (no
one is goign to frag with This).

> The second one concerns being in multiple groups. We've been treating it like
> people now treat being in multiple Karmic Team Pools. Being in one group is
> one thing, karma costs do not alter in any way other than for Initiation Grade
> Advancement. However, being "recognized" in more than one group for being
a
> grade that "Group A might accept, but Group B says BS about" is another
> matter. We require the individual to spend an amount of karma equal to the
> target grade paid to each group other than that group the person did the
> advancement with as a sort of "Appeasement" to the groups AC.

It also sounds reasonable. It makes it cost more to be in multiple
groups, but not much more. It can get expensive at the higher grades,
but then again so can Initiation.

> That Help explain a few things?

Yep, but you can still "join one group for abilities, another for
grade".

--
Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-
Message no. 9
From: Brian Moore <mooreb@*****.FAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Initiation Advancement (Re: Foretelling)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:30:34 -0500
AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM> said:
> Okay, time to settle some issues stated above ...
>
> 1. Shielding is nothing more than dice assigned from your Magic Pool for the
> purposes of Shielding. This means that a Grade 0 initiate with a Magic Pool
> of 20 has up to 20 dice for their Shielding, and only by increasing the Magic
> Pool by taking the Sorcery skill up or getting enchantments that increase the
> Magic Pool will the pool ever increase.

As others have said, an Initiate also gets a Shielding Pool with dice
equal to his Initiate Grade.

> 2. Masking, once learned is always there ...

Yes, however there are certain tests associated with Masking that are
based on Initiate Grade. IIRC, the target number for piercing Masking
is the target's Magic Rating, but you need a number of successes equal
to the difference in Initiate Grade. Someone who learned Masking at
Grade 0 and then joined another group where Masking wasn't practiced
would always be considered Grade 0, so a single success would be able
to see through his Masking. It is also possible to Mask foci (and
Quickened spells I think), but only a number of Force Points <=
Initiate Grade.

--
Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-
Message no. 10
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Initiation Advancement (Re: Foretelling)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 22:11:35 EST
In a message dated 97-12-28 13:18:01 EST, mooreb@*****.FAC.COM writes:

> > That Help explain a few things?
>
> Yep, but you can still "join one group for abilities, another for
> grade".
>
Sadly, that is where the GM must determine the end-flavor and end-style of the
game itself. Hopefully, most GM's don't design things so utterly easy to be
in multiple groups so that one can gain in multiple abilities without paying
some hefty karma. Hell, Binder was in 4 at his peak (Council of Stone-
Druidic, the Crafters, the Mechanics, and Geeker's Path)....now he's just down
to the Mechanics and Self Initiation....hey, a brainstorm....

Perhaps the GM could decide that the group with the "higher end karma cost" is
the base cost, and the extra karma is for the "least expensive group".

This conversation also made me think of something. In Threats, under the
"Black Lodge", it mentions one member might be really high or important in one
group but would still fall under the restrictions of the other (that being the
Lodge). Makes me wonder....

-K

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Initiation Advancement (Re: Foretelling), you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.