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Message no. 1
From: "Darrell L. Bowman" <bowmandl@*****.DHR.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 08:45:46 +0000
I would like folks opinion on the amount of karma required to
create an ally spirit as part of an initiation ordeal.

The situation is that I have a Grade Zero initiate, ready to go
up to Grade 1. I want to do the Ally Ordeal, so that I will not
lose the magic point, and also reducing the amount of karma
required to increase to Grade 1.

Creating the ally spirit per the rules in the Grimoire on P.69 I
created the ally and determined it to cost 52 karma points at
Force 4 with some enhancements and additional forms.

So, to do this I have to have 52 karma for the ally, and 17.5
(18) points for initiating to Grade 1.

BUT! Reading P.40 under Familiar:
"This ordeal requires the magician to conjure up an ally (see
Allies, p.67), which automatically costs as much Karma as the
initiation itself."

Soooo.... what's the deal? Do I gotta spend the 52 for the Ally,
or just another 18? If I only have to spend the 18, do I just
get to pick the design of the ally? I'll admit that doesn't make
sense.

Opinions?

Excalibur
Darrell Bowman
bowmandl@*****.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 2
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:14:14 +0000
On 28 Apr 97 at 8:45, Darrell L. Bowman wrote:

> BUT! Reading P.40 under Familiar:
> "This ordeal requires the magician to conjure up an ally (see
> Allies, p.67), which automatically costs as much Karma as the
> initiation itself."
>
> Soooo.... what's the deal? Do I gotta spend the 52 for the Ally, or
> just another 18? If I only have to spend the 18, do I just get to
> pick the design of the ally? I'll admit that doesn't make sense.
>

I think it means that the base cost of the ally is as much as the
initiation, as a trade off to keeping the magic point. So your ally
would cost 70 points. (18 base + the 52 used to design it).


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Message no. 3
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:32:18 -0400
>BUT! Reading P.40 under Familiar:
>"This ordeal requires the magician to conjure up an ally (see
>Allies, p.67), which automatically costs as much Karma as the
>initiation itself."
>
>Soooo.... what's the deal? Do I gotta spend the 52 for the Ally,
>or just another 18? If I only have to spend the 18, do I just
>get to pick the design of the ally? I'll admit that doesn't make
>sense.
>
I always interpreted that as meaning that the mage must design an ally that
costs at least as much karma as the initiation -- no force 1 allies for 5
karma, or whatever. So, in your example, you have to pay the full 52 karma
for an ally that powerful, but you could get away with a much less powerful
ally as long as the total karma cost for summoning in was >= 18.

--DT
Message no. 4
From: MENARD Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 12:04:30 -0400
On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, David Thompson wrote:

> >BUT! Reading P.40 under Familiar:
> >"This ordeal requires the magician to conjure up an ally (see
> >Allies, p.67), which automatically costs as much Karma as the
> >initiation itself."
> >
> >Soooo.... what's the deal? Do I gotta spend the 52 for the Ally,
> >or just another 18? If I only have to spend the 18, do I just
> >get to pick the design of the ally? I'll admit that doesn't make
> >sense.
> >
> I always interpreted that as meaning that the mage must design an ally that
> costs at least as much karma as the initiation -- no force 1 allies for 5
> karma, or whatever. So, in your example, you have to pay the full 52 karma
> for an ally that powerful, but you could get away with a much less powerful
> ally as long as the total karma cost for summoning in was >= 18.
>
> --DT
>
>
Just to put a third interpretation out there, we interpreted it, after
much deliberation, as meaning the ally must cost 18 points. No more, no
less. You get an ally with 2 discounts (initiation and no magic point),
but it will be weak.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
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--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 16:39:25 GMT
Darrell L. Bowman writes

> I would like folks opinion on the amount of karma required to
> create an ally spirit as part of an initiation ordeal.
>
> The situation is that I have a Grade Zero initiate, ready to go
> up to Grade 1. I want to do the Ally Ordeal, so that I will not
> lose the magic point, and also reducing the amount of karma
> required to increase to Grade 1.
>
> Creating the ally spirit per the rules in the Grimoire on P.69 I
> created the ally and determined it to cost 52 karma points at
> Force 4 with some enhancements and additional forms.
>
> So, to do this I have to have 52 karma for the ally, and 17.5
> (18) points for initiating to Grade 1.
It could be argued round down but GM's choice generally prevails and
i cannot for sure remember which the book advises.

>
> BUT! Reading P.40 under Familiar:
> "This ordeal requires the magician to conjure up an ally (see
> Allies, p.67), which automatically costs as much Karma as the
> initiation itself."
>
> Soooo.... what's the deal? Do I gotta spend the 52 for the Ally,
> or just another 18? If I only have to spend the 18, do I just
> get to pick the design of the ally? I'll admit that doesn't make
> sense.
>
> Opinions?
>
I would say the rule equates basically to requiring the ally cost at
least as much as the grade.
So in your case no problem the magician pays his 18 for grade 1 and
52 for the ally. This rule is to stop 5 karma allies(force 1 and no
bonuses) being used to save 6 or 7 karma at high grade ratings.
The magician is already saving his magic point he should of spent on
the ally and getting the ordeal reduction on his initiation cost
common sense would say thats very nice thankyou without him getting
immense karmic windfalls as well.

Mark
Message no. 6
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:09:49 -0700
> I would like folks opinion on the amount of karma required to
> create an ally spirit as part of an initiation ordeal.
>
> The situation is that I have a Grade Zero initiate, ready to go
> up to Grade 1. I want to do the Ally Ordeal, so that I will not
> lose the magic point, and also reducing the amount of karma
> required to increase to Grade 1.

Good man that's the only way to fly. =)

> Creating the ally spirit per the rules in the Grimoire on P.69 I
> created the ally and determined it to cost 52 karma points at
> Force 4 with some enhancements and additional forms.

Sounds about right.

> So, to do this I have to have 52 karma for the ally, and 17.5
> (18) points for initiating to Grade 1.
>
> BUT! Reading P.40 under Familiar:
> "This ordeal requires the magician to conjure up an ally (see
> Allies, p.67), which automatically costs as much Karma as the
> initiation itself."

Ok...this is just an off the cuff remark about the fact that allies ar
soooooo expensive.

> Soooo.... what's the deal? Do I gotta spend the 52 for the Ally,
> or just another 18? If I only have to spend the 18, do I just
> get to pick the design of the ally? I'll admit that doesn't make
> sense.

You can make an ally for 5 karma if you want, but it will die purty durn
quick.

> Opinions?

You're ok...no need to worry.

-Caric

"One cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war."
-Albert Einstein
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:34:16 +0100
Darrell L. Bowman said on 8:45/28 Apr 97...

> I would like folks opinion on the amount of karma required to
> create an ally spirit as part of an initiation ordeal.
>
> The situation is that I have a Grade Zero initiate, ready to go
> up to Grade 1. I want to do the Ally Ordeal, so that I will not
> lose the magic point, and also reducing the amount of karma
> required to increase to Grade 1.

I've had a player do this once (he set it free later on), and the way I
handled it was to make him design an ally with a Karma cost equal to the
Karma cost of the initiation. I don't remember what grade he wanted to
attain, but I do know it was only a Force 2 spirit (that he later
increased to Force 3).
Of course, I wouldn't have minded (gr?) if he'd spent more Karma -- it's
just that he didn't have any more :)

> So, to do this I have to have 52 karma for the ally, and 17.5
> (18) points for initiating to Grade 1.
>
> BUT! Reading P.40 under Familiar:
> "This ordeal requires the magician to conjure up an ally (see
> Allies, p.67), which automatically costs as much Karma as the
> initiation itself."
>
> Soooo.... what's the deal? Do I gotta spend the 52 for the Ally,
> or just another 18? If I only have to spend the 18, do I just
> get to pick the design of the ally? I'll admit that doesn't make
> sense.

In my game, the Karma cost for the ally and the initiation are the same --
if you spend 18 Karma to summon an ally spirit, you've automatically also
spent the 18 Karma needed for that initiation grade. IIRC the Grimoire
isn't very clear on whether the ally cost is in addition to the initiation
cost, or if it's the same, so I ruled it was the latter.

However, if you want to get a 52-Karma ally for only 18, I'd say NO! Spend
the 52 Karma and you get your spirit and the initiation grade, sure,
but not the other way around.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't tell me about the answer
'Cause then another one will come along soon
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 8
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 11:48:03 GMT
Caric writes
>
> > So, to do this I have to have 52 karma for the ally, and 17.5
> > (18) points for initiating to Grade 1.
> >
> Ok...this is just an off the cuff remark about the fact that allies ar
> soooooo expensive.
>
Stupidly so. Fair enough a decent ally is very useful and should cost
a good bit of karma but good ally costs between 50 and 100 karma,
enough to really change the game and they are ridiculously easy to
kill. I man just how long does a force 4 spirit last against one of
the archtype magicians? let alone a PC designed mage with 100 karma?,
1 action, thats kind!

Opinions? on say 1 force / 5 karma or something, you have got to do
something to keep the upper limit under control, would force squared
be more like it?, considering 4*4  and you might well want to add
a fair few skills and power a reasonable force 4 ally could still
cost 30 or so. not the 30+extras they do now.

Mark
Message no. 9
From: "Darrell L. Bowman" <bowmandl@*****.DHR.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:39:32 +0000
On 28 Apr 97 at 9:14, Drekhead wrote:

> On 28 Apr 97 at 8:45, Darrell L. Bowman wrote:
>
> > BUT! Reading P.40 under Familiar:
> > "This ordeal requires the magician to conjure up an ally (see
> > Allies, p.67), which automatically costs as much Karma as the
> > initiation itself."
> >
> > Soooo.... what's the deal? Do I gotta spend the 52 for the Ally, or
> > just another 18? If I only have to spend the 18, do I just get to
> > pick the design of the ally? I'll admit that doesn't make sense.
> >
>
> I think it means that the base cost of the ally is as much as the
> initiation, as a trade off to keeping the magic point. So your ally
> would cost 70 points. (18 base + the 52 used to design it).

OUCH!!!.... I don't think I like the way you interpret that! :-)
Excalibur
Darrell Bowman
bowmandl@*****.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 10
From: "Darrell L. Bowman" <bowmandl@*****.DHR.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 08:39:32 +0000
On 28 Apr 97 at 9:32, David Thompson wrote:

> I always interpreted that as meaning that the mage must design an ally that
> costs at least as much karma as the initiation -- no force 1 allies for 5
> karma, or whatever. So, in your example, you have to pay the full 52 karma
> for an ally that powerful, but you could get away with a much less powerful
> ally as long as the total karma cost for summoning in was >= 18.

Thanks for your input,....
Excalibur
Darrell Bowman
bowmandl@*****.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 11
From: Gossamer <jrsnyder@********.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 07:44:18 -0500
>> Ok...this is just an off the cuff remark about the fact
>> that allies are soooooo expensive.
>>
>Stupidly so. Fair enough a decent ally is very useful and
>should cost a good bit of karma but good ally costs between
>50 and 100 karma, enough to really change the game and they
>are ridiculously easy to kill. I man just how long does a
>force 4 spirit last against one of the archtype magicians?
>let alone a PC designed mage with 100 karma?, 1 action,
>thats kind!
>
>Opinions? on say 1 force / 5 karma or something, you have
>got to do something to keep the upper limit under control,
>would force squared be more like it?, considering 4*4 
>and you might well want to add a fair few skills and power
>a reasonable force 4 ally could still cost 30 or so. not
>the 30+extras they do now.

While I agree that a decent ally is very expensive, and I
like the 'squared' Force house rule a lot, here's my *real*
problem with conjuring ally spirits: Complexity.

Specifically, The need, when designing an ally, to have access
to a Conjuring library equal to or greater than the Complexity
of the ally... For the 50 Karma ally, Level 10, for the 100
Karma ally, Level 20... I offer the same change that Mark did
above: Make the Complexity of an ally the squre root of the
Karma cost to create it.

Also, while we're talking about how easy it is to waste an
ally, let's look at how easily any Initiate can waste one.
"Hmmm... there's an ally of that mage over there that I'm
fighting... Quick, jump into the Astral, perceive the thing's
aura, identify it's metaplane, go there(Quest rating equal to
the Force of the ally), kill it utterly, return. Bye-bye to
that 75+ Karma the mage just spent, and bye-bye to the magick
point if the ally was conjured for initiation, and etc.
Now, if you made the quest rating equal to the Complexity of
the ally... I might talk about it.

I think that the point is that allies are not worth how
much they cost, and given the current rules, the maximum
you're going to even be able to spend is about 60 Karma
(this would require a Level 12 libraray to even be able
to start, and then a TN12 on your Theory roll to come up
with the proper Formula, and if you blow the roll, you
can't try again until your Theory score goes up). The
Universities in my game universe might have a Level 12
Library(maybe), and I'm sure Aztechnology has a level
12 Conjuring Library... somewhere... Let's go down to
Mexico City and see if we can't just get them to let
us use it... right.

So the solution we've opted for in my game is that if
you want to waste the Karma, fine, we won't worry about
dice rolls too much, and the Library thing we can work
around... if you're deficient in some things, well that
will just add more time for your research. How much
time? Depends on how deficient you are. So, we left the
Karma costs unchanged, and did away with most everything
else, and chalked it up to extra time... I'm getting
ready to summon an ally for my character in this current
game. The reason? So he can get a date. It's going to
have 13 forms, and Special Skill Dancing. I can go out
with a different girl every night of the week!

By the gods, I'm pathetic. I can't believe I just shared
that with you guys.

Gossamer
Message no. 12
From: Gossamer <jrsnyder@********.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 07:57:35 -0500
>> I think it means that the base cost of the ally is as much
>> as the initiation, as a trade off to keeping the magic point.
>> So your ally would cost 70 points. (18 base + the 52 used
>> to design it).
>
>OUCH!!!.... I don't think I like the way you interpret that! :-)

That's what I read Ex. Buy the Familiar, buy the initiation, save
the little bit of Karma for your Ordeal, and save the point of
Magick for yourself, then you get a Power Focus and a personal
servant/companion that you didn't have to buy in the slave trade.
And they cost a lot less than a comparable Power Focus, and a
mage can't ground a spell through an Astral Familiar...

Also, recall that Ordeal Familiars are more loyal than 'ordinary'
Familiars.

I think it's perfectly reasonable except for the fact that
Familiars are so stinking expensive.

Gossamer
Message no. 13
From: Gossamer <jessica@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:11:25 -0500
>I think that the point is that allies are not worth how
>much they cost, and given the current rules, the maximum
>you're going to even be able to spend is about 60 Karma
>(this would require a Level 12 libraray to even be able
>to start, and then a TN12 on your Theory roll to come up
>with the proper Formula, and if you blow the roll, you
>can't try again until your Theory score goes up). The
>Universities in my game universe might have a Level 12
>Library(maybe), and I'm sure Aztechnology has a level
>12 Conjuring Library... somewhere... Let's go down to
>Mexico City and see if we can't just get them to let
>us use it... right.

I made an error here, sorry. After rereading the text,
it says that only 'the rule of 1' requires that the
mage's Theory skill be increased before retry. A simple
failure only means that the design takes double the base
time.

But you still need a Library (or Medicine Lodge) with
a rating equal to or higher than the Complexity...

Anyway, sorry for the goof, glad I got it put right.

Gossamer
Message no. 14
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:40:35 GMT
Gossamer writes

> >Opinions? on say 1 force / 5 karma or something, you have
> >got to do something to keep the upper limit under control,
> >would force squared be more like it?, considering 4*4 
> >and you might well want to add a fair few skills and power
> >a reasonable force 4 ally could still cost 30 or so. not
> >the 30+extras they do now.
>
> While I agree that a decent ally is very expensive, and I
> like the 'squared' Force house rule a lot,
It was an idea i had reading the post i was replying to. I have so
far seen a grand total of 1 ally in my games, by an NPC who i
designed it for and i simply added the cost to his karma, cost over
80 points and if a PC sneezed on it without its boss nearby it would
die just like that!

> here's my *real*
> problem with conjuring ally spirits: Complexity.
>
> Specifically, The need, when designing an ally, to have access
> to a Conjuring library equal to or greater than the Complexity
> of the ally... For the 50 Karma ally, Level 10, for the 100
> Karma ally, Level 20... I offer the same change that Mark did
> above: Make the Complexity of an ally the squre root of the
> Karma cost to create it.
Yeah. I limited libraries to 20 after some corporate rated ones got
floating about (long story) but typically 10 is about the best a mage
ever gets. You have a point and square root does look good (of total
ally cost)

>
> Also, while we're talking about how easy it is to waste an
> ally, let's look at how easily any Initiate can waste one.
> "Hmmm... there's an ally of that mage over there that I'm
> fighting... Quick, jump into the Astral, perceive the thing's
> aura, identify it's metaplane, go there(Quest rating equal to
> the Force of the ally), kill it utterly, return. Bye-bye to
> that 75+ Karma the mage just spent, and bye-bye to the magick
> point if the ally was conjured for initiation, and etc.
> Now, if you made the quest rating equal to the Complexity of
> the ally... I might talk about it.
Around grade 4 rating 5 quests are no deal rating 10 do-able if you
don't mind some drain, yeah bit easy though is the quest to it's
plane a complex action, read true aura is banishing i'm not so sure.
If not the mage is asking to become a lead attractor.
>
> I think that the point is that allies are not worth how
> much they cost, and given the current rules, the maximum
> you're going to even be able to spend is about 60 Karma
and just where pray tell except Harlequins back do you intend to find
60 karma in a hurry :)

> (this would require a Level 12 libraray to even be able
> to start, and then a TN12 on your Theory roll to come up
> with the proper Formula,
> Universities in my game universe might have a Level 12
> Library(maybe), and I'm sure Aztechnology has a level
> 12 Conjuring Library... somewhere... Let's go down to
> Mexico City and see if we can't just get them to let
> us use it... right.
>
Well the griomire suggests 6+2D6 for luxuary magic group librariesso
i rate full corp ones better than that but yes you can come to our
library (sure where out troops are waiting to cart you off for Blood
mage supplies fodder :) )

Mark
Message no. 15
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 07:59:58 +1000
> > BUT! Reading P.40 under Familiar:
> > "This ordeal requires the magician to conjure up an ally (see
> > Allies, p.67), which automatically costs as much Karma as the
> > initiation itself."
> >
> > Soooo.... what's the deal? Do I gotta spend the 52 for the Ally,
> > or just another 18? If I only have to spend the 18, do I just
> > get to pick the design of the ally? I'll admit that doesn't make
> > sense.

I'd say that if you have a nice high-force ally design then fine, it
costs you the 52 Karma. If you try to design the 5-karma Force 1 ally,
sure, you have a Force 1 Ally - but it cost you 18 points, not 5.

Lady Jestyr

-----------------------------------------------
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-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 16
From: "Darrell L. Bowman" <bowmandl@*****.DHR.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:26:45 +0000
On 29 Apr 97 at 7:44, Gossamer wrote:

> else, and chalked it up to extra time... I'm getting
> ready to summon an ally for my character in this current
> game. The reason? So he can get a date. It's going to
> have 13 forms, and Special Skill Dancing. I can go out
> with a different girl every night of the week!
>
> By the gods, I'm pathetic. I can't believe I just shared
> that with you guys.

Heh?? I don't think that's pathetic,... I mean if you didn't
really mean that that was the only reason :-)

Actually, having an ally with a lot of different forms could be
advantageous.... I may need to increase the number I have, I'd
picked a Wolf (wolf Shaman) and a man and a woman. Hmmm....


Knights of Shadows Game Master
Excalibur
Darrell L. Bowman
bowmandl@*****.dhr.state.nc.us
http://www.abts.net/~arch/kos_rule.htm
Message no. 17
From: "Darrell L. Bowman" <bowmandl@*****.DHR.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:26:46 +0000
On 29 Apr 97 at 7:57, Gossamer wrote:

> >> I think it means that the base cost of the ally is as much
> >> as the initiation, as a trade off to keeping the magic point.
> >> So your ally would cost 70 points. (18 base + the 52 used
> >> to design it).
> >
> >OUCH!!!.... I don't think I like the way you interpret that! :-)
>
> That's what I read Ex. Buy the Familiar, buy the initiation, save
> the little bit of Karma for your Ordeal, and save the point of
> Magick for yourself, then you get a Power Focus and a personal
> servant/companion that you didn't have to buy in the slave trade.
> And they cost a lot less than a comparable Power Focus, and a
> mage can't ground a spell through an Astral Familiar...
>
> Also, recall that Ordeal Familiars are more loyal than 'ordinary'
> Familiars.
>
> I think it's perfectly reasonable except for the fact that
> Familiars are so stinking expensive.

I think that's the whole fraggin' point here though, ain't it? I
mean, we've seen this discussion here a couple messages back,
how long do you think a Force 4 Ally is gonna' last if he gets
into combat?

I mean I wouldn't normally send a familiar into combat, either
here or in AD&D, but what if....? That 52 karma was for a Force
4 and I'm thinking I really need to (if I'm gonna' go to the
trouble) summon like a Force 7 or 8. But, Daaaaammmmnnnn!

Knights of Shadows Game Master
Excalibur
Darrell L. Bowman
bowmandl@*****.dhr.state.nc.us
http://www.abts.net/~arch/kos_rule.htm
Message no. 18
From: "Darrell L. Bowman" <bowmandl@*****.DHR.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:26:45 +0000
On 29 Apr 97 at 9:34, Gurth wrote:

> In my game, the Karma cost for the ally and the initiation are the same --
> if you spend 18 Karma to summon an ally spirit, you've automatically also
> spent the 18 Karma needed for that initiation grade. IIRC the Grimoire
> isn't very clear on whether the ally cost is in addition to the initiation
> cost, or if it's the same, so I ruled it was the latter.
>
> However, if you want to get a 52-Karma ally for only 18, I'd say NO! Spend
> the 52 Karma and you get your spirit and the initiation grade, sure,
> but not the other way around.

Hmmm... I hadn't thought about handling it that way, I'll have
to bounce that idea of the GM of that game,... thanks.

Knights of Shadows Game Master
Excalibur
Darrell L. Bowman
bowmandl@*****.dhr.state.nc.us
http://www.abts.net/~arch/kos_rule.htm
Message no. 19
From: "Darrell L. Bowman" <bowmandl@*****.DHR.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:26:46 +0000
On 28 Apr 97 at 11:09, Caric wrote:

> You can make an ally for 5 karma if you want, but it will die purty durn
> quick.
>
> > Opinions?
>
> You're ok...no need to worry.

I'm okay??? I think you missed the point of the post, I was
looking for an opinion on how much karma the ally (at Force 4)
would actually cost me.

Knights of Shadows Game Master
Excalibur
Darrell L. Bowman
bowmandl@*****.dhr.state.nc.us
http://www.abts.net/~arch/kos_rule.htm
Message no. 20
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:24:34 -0700
> I'm okay??? I think you missed the point of the post, I was
> looking for an opinion on how much karma the ally (at Force 4)
> would actually cost me.

What I was saying is that the way you had it figured was correct. The ally
costs you 52 karma (I think that's the total you came up with) plus the 18
or whatever for initiation.

-Caric

"One cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war."
-Albert Einstein
Message no. 21
From: Gossamer <jrsnyder@********.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:56:27 -0500
>> You can make an ally for 5 karma if you want, but it will die purty durn
>> quick.
>>
>> > Opinions?
>>
>> You're ok...no need to worry.
>
>I'm okay??? I think you missed the point of the post, I was
>looking for an opinion on how much karma the ally (at Force 4)
>would actually cost me.

52 points... start saving; mages are Karma sinks. Oh, and
don't forget the 18 Karma for the Initiation...

Gossamer
Message no. 22
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:34:06 +0000
On 30 Apr 97 at 11:26, Darrell L. Bowman wrote:

> I think that's the whole fraggin' point here though, ain't it? I
> mean, we've seen this discussion here a couple messages back, how
> long do you think a Force 4 Ally is gonna' last if he gets into
> combat?
>
> I mean I wouldn't normally send a familiar into combat, either
> here or in AD&D, but what if....? That 52 karma was for a Force 4
> and I'm thinking I really need to (if I'm gonna' go to the trouble)
> summon like a Force 7 or 8. But, Daaaaammmmnnnn!

I guess this all comes down to your GM. I used to have a GM that
would kill familiars and pets in an AD&D game just for the hell of
it. He couldn't stand them. I find that in games I have run that if a
player uses his familiars and pets to mainly aid in roleplaying, I
tend to leave them alone. But when the character starts to use them
in munchkin ways, they are toast. If your GM is so inclined, spend
your valuable Karma on something else.

<rant on>
Speaking of that, I hate the way that mages get screwed when it
comes to Karma. When other characters spend Karma, it is for
attribute or skill advancement (that is all they can use it for,
right?). That Karma is never lost. Those skills and attributes stay
modified (pending Evil GM influence, of course). Mages, on the other
hand, can spend Karma on allies, focuses, etc. If those objects are
destroyed, the Karma is gone. Period. What a gyp! There has to be a
better way...
<rant off>

How about this:
Karma is spent like normal on magical stuff (allies, focuses, etc.),
but not used up. If the item is destroyed, the Karma is freed to be
used once again on something else. I don't think it is munchkiny,
because the mage still has a Karma "cap" that he has to contend with.
Of course, initiation does not apply to the above. I few other things
I just thought of. If items are destroyed by the mage on purpose
(like if he wants to deliberately try to regain some Karma) the Karma
is lost. This includes setting his ally free.

This idea took all of 10 minutes to propose, so fire away.

--

#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
# DREKHEAD - drekhead@***.net, drekhead@***.com - Tim Kerby #
#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
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If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot
stomping on a human face...forever. -George Orwell
Message no. 23
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:30:01 +0100
Darrell L. Bowman said on 11:26/30 Apr 97...

> On 29 Apr 97 at 7:44, Gossamer wrote:
>
> > else, and chalked it up to extra time... I'm getting
> > ready to summon an ally for my character in this current
> > game. The reason? So he can get a date. It's going to
> > have 13 forms, and Special Skill Dancing. I can go out
> > with a different girl every night of the week!

Quick, does anyone know how to summon an ally IRL?

:)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
...and I make a difference too.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 24
From: Brett Borger <SwiftOne@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 18:30:46 -0400
>Actually, having an ally with a lot of different forms could be
>advantageous.... I may need to increase the number I have, I'd
>picked a Wolf (wolf Shaman) and a man and a woman. Hmmm....

Ever since someone mentioned the rigger/mage with an ally that had vehicle
forms, it's inspired me....

typical human forms....selection of different sexes races best.
Bat/bird form (for flight recon)(Bat can scope ultrasound)
Mouse form (tight squeezes)
Guitar form (El Mariachi...)
Van form (get the loot and go)
Helicopter (great, trapped on the roof...)
sword Form (Dancing, casts spells, witty humor in combat, can't be beat)
Lone Star patrol car/officer form (Would you step out of the car ma'am)
certified credstick form (great way to track baddies, they won't put it down
til they find out it's fake)
Hot Date form (<sheepish look>)
Dead you form (way to fool the enemy)
Bug Spirit form (after Chicago, who's going to stick around?)
Dunkelzahn form (I have returned my children!)

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 25
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 23:08:16 +0100
In message <199704301841.SAA588475@****.ibm.net>, Drekhead
<drekhead@***.NET> writes
><rant on>
>Speaking of that, I hate the way that mages get screwed when it
>comes to Karma. When other characters spend Karma, it is for
>attribute or skill advancement (that is all they can use it for,
>right?). That Karma is never lost. Those skills and attributes stay
>modified (pending Evil GM influence, of course). Mages, on the other
>hand, can spend Karma on allies, focuses, etc. If those objects are
>destroyed, the Karma is gone. Period. What a gyp! There has to be a
>better way...
><rant off>

Then again, mages have a lot less use for money, but a mercenary or
rigger or samurai lives by the stuff, spending it on vehicles and gear
and cyber. If those objects are destroyed, the money is gone. What a
gyp! :)

>How about this:
>Karma is spent like normal on magical stuff (allies, focuses, etc.),
>but not used up. If the item is destroyed, the Karma is freed to be
>used once again on something else.

Okay. Does that mean when a rigger's customised, modified and
personalised Saab Dynamit gets trashed, he gets the money and time spent
building it back, or else an identical replacement?

If not, why not?

You're worried about losing the Karma, spend it on skills or spells or
attribute increases or Initiation: things that can't be taken away. You
want a power focus or an Ally, accept that it's a valuable target and
your enemies may concentrate on it.

Mundanes are money-limited, magicians are Karma-limited. Given the
alarming amounts of cash magicians tend to pile up (especially once they
learn Enchanting for fun and profit) reducing their Karma limitations is
a bad, bad idea.


One of the shortest investigations in history. After a theft, a PC mage
went to a PC detective.

Mage: "Marlowe, I want to hire you."

Detective: "Sure. Five hundred a day, five thousand minimum."

M: "No problem. Someone stole my million-nuyen combined weapon-and-power
focus knife. Why did they want it?"

D: "Because it was worth a million nuyen. That's five thousand, please,
I take cash or cheque..."



--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 26
From: Gossamer <kajohnson@*******.TEC.WI.US>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:59:44 -0500
[Swift One's Familiar forms deleted]

> Hot Date form (<sheepish look>)

He says, "Hot Date" and 'sheep' on the same line and thinks
I'm going to let this GO!!!!!

HA!

Is he from Scotland???

Gossamer
Message no. 27
From: Michel Racicot <harlequin@*********.CA>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:37:01 -0400
someone wrote:

> Ever since someone mentioned the rigger/mage with an ally that had
vehicle
> forms, it's inspired me....
>
> typical human forms....selection of different sexes races best.
> Bat/bird form (for flight recon)(Bat can scope ultrasound)
> Mouse form (tight squeezes)
> Guitar form (El Mariachi...)
> Van form (get the loot and go)
> Helicopter (great, trapped on the roof...)
> sword Form (Dancing, casts spells, witty humor in combat, can't be beat)
> Lone Star patrol car/officer form (Would you step out of the car ma'am)
> certified credstick form (great way to track baddies, they won't put it
down
> til they find out it's fake)
> Hot Date form (<sheepish look>)
> Dead you form (way to fool the enemy)
> Bug Spirit form (after Chicago, who's going to stick around?)
> Dunkelzahn form (I have returned my children!)

Hahaha very funny! is it possible or is it just a joke? :)

Harlequin - The master of chaos
harlequin@*********.ca
Message no. 28
From: Brett Borger <SwiftOne@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 19:46:27 -0400
>> Hot Date form (<sheepish look>)
>
>He says, "Hot Date" and 'sheep' on the same line and thinks
>I'm going to let this GO!!!!!
>Is he from Scotland???

Nope....He's engaged to a Hot Babe, and doesn't need to get an ally.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 29
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 20:56:51 +0500
On 30 Apr 97 at 23:08, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> Then again, mages have a lot less use for money, but a mercenary or
> rigger or samurai lives by the stuff, spending it on vehicles and
> gear and cyber. If those objects are destroyed, the money is gone.
> What a gyp! :)

I see what you are saying, but most magic stuff costs money too.
Focuses can cost several hundred thousand nuyen, libraries and
materials for hermetic circles, medicine lodges, and rituals are not
cheap either. Even if you make the stuff yourself, the raw material
cost money. Mages not needing money? I think not.

> >How about this:
> >Karma is spent like normal on magical stuff (allies, focuses,
> >etc.), but not used up. If the item is destroyed, the Karma is
> >freed to be used once again on something else.

> Okay. Does that mean when a rigger's customised, modified and
> personalised Saab Dynamit gets trashed, he gets the money and time
> spent building it back, or else an identical replacement?
>
> If not, why not?

Not unless he bonded it with Karma.... :)

> You're worried about losing the Karma, spend it on skills or spells
> or attribute increases or Initiation: things that can't be taken
> away. You want a power focus or an Ally, accept that it's a valuable
> target and your enemies may concentrate on it.

> Mundanes are money-limited, magicians are Karma-limited. Given the
> alarming amounts of cash magicians tend to pile up (especially once
> they learn Enchanting for fun and profit) reducing their Karma
> limitations is a bad, bad idea.

I agree with both of your points above. It also proves that money is
easier to come by than Karma, which is the whole point of my
argument. Karma is not easy to replace.

> One of the shortest investigations in history. After a theft, a PC
> mage went to a PC detective.
>
> Mage: "Marlowe, I want to hire you."
>
> Detective: "Sure. Five hundred a day, five thousand minimum."
>
> M: "No problem. Someone stole my million-nuyen combined
> weapon-and-power focus knife. Why did they want it?"
>
> D: "Because it was worth a million nuyen. That's five thousand,
> please, I take cash or cheque..."

LOL!

--
#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
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#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
Do mages run spell checkers?
Message no. 30
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:34:50 EDT
On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 23:08:16 +0100 "Paul J. Adam" >

>Then again, mages have a lot less use for money, but a mercenary or
>rigger or samurai lives by the stuff, spending it on vehicles and gear
>and cyber. If those objects are destroyed, the money is gone. What a
>gyp! :)

Huh? See your own example below...

[snip]

>One of the shortest investigations in history. After a theft, a PC mage
>went to a PC detective.
>
>Mage: "Marlowe, I want to hire you."
>Detective: "Sure. Five hundred a day, five thousand minimum."
>M: "No problem. Someone stole my million-nuyen combined
> weapon-and-power focus knife. Why did they want it?"
>D: "Because it was worth a million nuyen. That's five thousand,
>please, I take cash or cheque..."

Ever price a good sized power focus? Or a relatively simple spell
catagory focus? or the above mentioned weapon/power focus? You don't
think those are money sinks either?

When the mage has to shell out 75,000 nuyen per force point (not
including SI) AND spend karma on it... some times I'd rather be playing
the Streetsam who pays half less than half that for an upgrade (of course
I did get a kick figuring out how much money it would cost one player to
get a 50,000 nuyen piece of cyberware...let's see, cost + SI + surgery +
time spent "Hospitalized" + extended care + "magical care" to speed up
recovery...ended up soaking him for over 200 grand... heh heh)

~Tim
Message no. 31
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:05:42 +1000
> > else, and chalked it up to extra time... I'm getting
> > ready to summon an ally for my character in this current
> > game. The reason? So he can get a date. It's going to
> > have 13 forms, and Special Skill Dancing. I can go out
> > with a different girl every night of the week!
> >
> > By the gods, I'm pathetic. I can't believe I just shared
> > that with you guys.

You can only teach it skills that you know can't you? Does your character
have a dancing skill? I suppose though that you might. But don't the
girls like a guy that can dance?

Ray.

-----------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens,|
| You will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@*******.com.au
Message no. 32
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:39:46 GMT
Brett Borger writes
> Ever since someone mentioned the rigger/mage with an ally that had vehicle
> forms, it's inspired me....
>
nice list - strimmer activeated

> Helicopter (great, trapped on the roof...)
but is the ally strong enough to pick up the team and this is
streatching things a bit. Just look at the mages face if the former
problem occurs as an Aguilgar appears on the sceen if he hadn't
thought of it :)

> Lone Star patrol car/officer form (Would you step out of the car ma'am)
And teach it to make suitable noises, amazing how fast some folks
will disperse from these things, sure its only one crappy cop car,
but they've got LOTS of friends :)

> certified credstick form (great way to track baddies, they won't put it down
Yeah. On another front the 'turns to acid after X minutes' fake
credstick is fun :)

> Bug Spirit form (after Chicago, who's going to stick around?)
Not many but those that do are likely to run you over with a tanker
full of insecticide first and check the corpse lots later. Ok you'r
not a bug really, but just how well do you react to being run over by
a tanker?

> Dunkelzahn form (I have returned my children!)
>
Just great till the guy over there turns into Lofwyr form :), now is
he real, dare you hang around, bt even if you don't that 'might' be a
ticked off dragon over there :)


Mark
Message no. 33
From: Gossamer <jrsnyder@********.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:16:29 -0500
>> > else, and chalked it up to extra time... I'm getting
>> > ready to summon an ally for my character in this current
>> > game. The reason? So he can get a date. It's going to
>> > have 13 forms, and Special Skill Dancing. I can go out
>> > with a different girl every night of the week!
>> >
>> > By the gods, I'm pathetic. I can't believe I just shared
>> > that with you guys.
>
>You can only teach it skills that you know can't you? Does
>your character have a dancing skill? I suppose though that
>you might. But don't the girls like a guy that can dance?

Gossamer winds up his fresh, smelly, 2-hour-old Carp...
but then slumps a bit and puts it away; no use in
getting into a carp war over a misunderstanding...

*Of Course* I have dancing skill! You can't give an ally
skills you don't have... And I'm willing to be that there
are lots of women who would date this guy, if he'd ever
ask them, but he doesn't. We don't deal with petty
emotions like love in our game... unless you using
someone.

The point is that with this familiar, I don't have to
deal with all that meta-rejection that comes with asking
people out... "Familiar, form 3 tonight... I feel
sophisticated."

Sheesh.

Gossamer
Message no. 34
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 17:37:11 +0100
In message <19970507.193730.4855.2.z-i-m@****.com>, Tim P Cooper <z-i-
m@****.COM> writes
>On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 23:08:16 +0100 "Paul J. Adam" >
>
>>Then again, mages have a lot less use for money, but a mercenary or
>>rigger or samurai lives by the stuff, spending it on vehicles and gear
>>and cyber. If those objects are destroyed, the money is gone. What a
>>gyp! :)
>
>Huh? See your own example below...

Mages don't _need_ foci: some magicians never use them, concentrating on
learning spells and improving skills and initiating.

On the other hand, riggers need vehicles and drones.

>Ever price a good sized power focus? Or a relatively simple spell
>catagory focus? or the above mentioned weapon/power focus? You don't
>think those are money sinks either?

Yeah, but so's deltaware move-by-wire-4.

>When the mage has to shell out 75,000 nuyen per force point (not
>including SI) AND spend karma on it... some times I'd rather be playing
>the Streetsam who pays half less than half that for an upgrade (of course
>I did get a kick figuring out how much money it would cost one player to
>get a 50,000 nuyen piece of cyberware...let's see, cost + SI + surgery +
>time spent "Hospitalized" + extended care + "magical care" to
speed up
>recovery...ended up soaking him for over 200 grand... heh heh)

Again, see my complaint? If a magician gets the karma back when he loses
a focus, what do other characters get in their turn?

If a character gets skillwires, can he "sell" the skills he learned and
use the Karma thus liberated for something else? Or if you remove a
piece of cyberware, can you reclaim the surgery costs?

Of all the claims I've heard for Shadowrun, the idea that magicians are
underpowered compared to other characters is a new one :)


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 35
From: Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 01:07:14 +1000
At 11:56 30/04/97 -0500, Gossamer wrote:
>52 points... start saving; mages are Karma sinks. Oh, and
>don't forget the 18 Karma for the Initiation...
>
Yep. I believe that calculation, 70 karma, is the right way to work it.
Start saving - plan ahead. It took me over a year of gaming and serious
self control to save up enough karma for a familiar. We now have three
familiars (through initiation ordeals, no straight vanilla allies) in the
(extended) group. All three are full characters with detailed personalities
and written character sheets. The three summoning magicians are, of course,
very protective of them.

By the way - having an ally with multiple forms and sense link must be a
voyeur's dream!

Chris

_______________________________________________________________
Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 36
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:28:36 +1000
> >You can only teach it skills that you know can't you? Does
> >your character have a dancing skill? I suppose though that
> >you might. But don't the girls like a guy that can dance?
>
> Gossamer winds up his fresh, smelly, 2-hour-old Carp...
> but then slumps a bit and puts it away; no use in
> getting into a carp war over a misunderstanding...

Don't get testy. It was just a comment.

Ray.

-----------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens,|
| You will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@*******.com.au
Message no. 37
From: Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 01:25:04 +1000
At 19:37 30/04/97 -0400, Michel Racicot wrote:
>> Bug Spirit form (after Chicago, who's going to stick around?)
>> Dunkelzahn form (I have returned my children!)
>
>Hahaha very funny! is it possible or is it just a joke? :)
>

Yep. That's my Rigger/Mage. According to the Grimoire (p69) an ally's true
from and additional forms 'can be anything at all'; subject to GM approval.
So if your GM has a sense of humor, a good imagination or a hell of a lot
of flexibility then the ally's forms do not have to be limited to the
traditional (meta)human/animal shapes. Oh, did I mention that my combat
mage's familiar has a Predator II form and this familiar casts a specially
designed manipulation spell called 'bullet'. Never misses <grin>.

Chris

_______________________________________________________________
Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 38
From: "Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr." <gilmeth@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 23:28:00 -0500
From: Paul J. Adam [SMTP:shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK]

> In message <199704301841.SAA588475@****.ibm.net>, Drekhead
> <drekhead@***.NET> writes
> ><rant on>
> >Speaking of that, I hate the way that mages get screwed when it
> >comes to Karma. When other characters spend Karma, it is for
> >attribute or skill advancement (that is all they can use it for,
> >right?). That Karma is never lost. Those skills and attributes stay
> >modified (pending Evil GM influence, of course). Mages, on the other
> >hand, can spend Karma on allies, focuses, etc. If those objects are
> >destroyed, the Karma is gone. Period. What a gyp! There has to be a
> >better way...
> ><rant off>

> Then again, mages have a lot less use for money, but a mercenary or
> rigger or samurai lives by the stuff, spending it on vehicles and gear
> and cyber. If those objects are destroyed, the money is gone. What a
> gyp! :)

> >How about this:
> >Karma is spent like normal on magical stuff (allies, focuses, etc.),
> >but not used up. If the item is destroyed, the Karma is freed to be
> >used once again on something else.

> Okay. Does that mean when a rigger's customised, modified and
> personalised Saab Dynamit gets trashed, he gets the money and time spent
> building it back, or else an identical replacement?

> If not, why not?

> You're worried about losing the Karma, spend it on skills or spells or
> attribute increases or Initiation: things that can't be taken away. You
> want a power focus or an Ally, accept that it's a valuable target and
> your enemies may concentrate on it.

> Mundanes are money-limited, magicians are Karma-limited. Given the
> alarming amounts of cash magicians tend to pile up (especially once they
> learn Enchanting for fun and profit) reducing their Karma limitations is
> a bad, bad idea.

Some mundanes aren't. In keeping with SOTA rules in
VR2 a Decker can spend money or Karma to keep up. This
will drain Karma quick once a character gets to much stuff
that get outdated WAY to fast for my (character's) taste.


Twinkie
gilmeth@*********.com
ICQ UIN: 514986
Microsoft Sitebuilder: 531896
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/3759/
Message no. 39
From: Gossamer <kajohnson@*******.TEC.WI.US>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:17:39 -0500
> By the way - having an ally with multiple forms and sense link must be a
> voyeur's dream!

You betcha! And at only 1 Karma per form, it's the cheapest form of
Disguise around... Now back to this vehicle form Familiar thing:

Marry Poppins... She had a talking, parrot-headed, flying umbrella.

What about the flying car in 'Flubber' or

'Chitty-Chitty Bang Bang'.

Or 'tigger' Can you give an Ally the form of a stuffed animal? Sure!
Why not!

Gossamer, whose imagination has just exploded in a pussious ooze onto the
keyboard
Message no. 40
From: Gossamer <kajohnson@*******.TEC.WI.US>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:55:55 -0500
> > >You can only teach it skills that you know can't you? Does
> > >your character have a dancing skill? I suppose though that
> > >you might. But don't the girls like a guy that can dance?
> >
> > Gossamer winds up his fresh, smelly, 2-hour-old Carp...
> > but then slumps a bit and puts it away; no use in
> > getting into a carp war over a misunderstanding...
>
> Don't get testy. It was just a comment.

I know that Ray ;> But you shoulda heard me yell when I
read it... It sounded a lot like

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!

yup, that's what it was like...

Anyway, peace,

Gossamer, who would never fling a carp out of pettiness.
Message no. 41
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:35:20 -0700
| Gossamer, whose imagination has just exploded in a pussious ooze onto the
| keyboard

shouldn't that be puscious or pusious....hmmmmm maybe not.

<shrug> what do I know =)

-Caric


What customer's say: "I have a dog and cat and i'm not computer literate
and my drive is broken and my computer beeps at me and I have a printer and
it ran out of ink..."

What I hear: "blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah drive
blahblahblahblahblahblahblah printer conflict blahblahblahblah"
Message no. 42
From: "Darrell L. Bowman" <bowmandl@*****.DHR.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 08:19:14 +0000
On 30 Apr 97 at 11:56, Gossamer wrote:

> >> You can make an ally for 5 karma if you want, but it will die purty durn
> >> quick.
> >>
> >> > Opinions?
> >>
> >> You're ok...no need to worry.
> >
> >I'm okay??? I think you missed the point of the post, I was
> >looking for an opinion on how much karma the ally (at Force 4)
> >would actually cost me.
>
> 52 points... start saving; mages are Karma sinks. Oh, and
> don't forget the 18 Karma for the Initiation...

Wait a minute,... two messages in a row...

My question was relating to the section on doing the ally ordeal
for initation, the book says that the ally cost the same as
initiation. That's the question... The same as initiation??? So,
do I spend the 52 that I was all set to spend, plus the 18 for
initiation, or do I spend 18 for initiation and 18 for the ally?

Knights of Shadows Game Master
Excalibur
Darrell L. Bowman
bowmandl@*****.dhr.state.nc.us
http://www.abts.net/~arch/kos_rule.htm
Message no. 43
From: "Darrell L. Bowman" <bowmandl@*****.DHR.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 08:19:14 +0000
On 30 Apr 97 at 14:34, Drekhead wrote:

> I guess this all comes down to your GM. I used to have a GM that
> would kill familiars and pets in an AD&D game just for the hell of
> it. He couldn't stand them. I find that in games I have run that if a
> player uses his familiars and pets to mainly aid in roleplaying, I
> tend to leave them alone. But when the character starts to use them
> in munchkin ways, they are toast. If your GM is so inclined, spend
> your valuable Karma on something else.

Well, the game that I started this character in has gone
kaputen.. but my current GM has let me play him once or twice
(along with my rigger) when the group needed magical support and
our regular mages weren't there, so I've put this question to
him anyway. The other side of the coin is, I'm a GM too, albeit,
only in a PBEM right now (except for Earthdawn) so I could just
make up my own rule and do it, but I don't feel right doing it
that way, I'd like to be able to play this character later, and
I'm just too fraggin' honest. (Yeah, what a sap, right?) But, I
don't think that my current GM would "go after" the ally. He
always says, he doesn't kill players, but they can kill
themselves, and if I were to put that ally somewhere and do
something stupid with it, it might disappear.

> <rant on>
> Speaking of that, I hate the way that mages get screwed when it
> comes to Karma. When other characters spend Karma, it is for
> attribute or skill advancement (that is all they can use it for,
> right?). That Karma is never lost. Those skills and attributes stay
> modified (pending Evil GM influence, of course). Mages, on the other
> hand, can spend Karma on allies, focuses, etc. If those objects are
> destroyed, the Karma is gone. Period. What a gyp! There has to be a
> better way...
> <rant off>

ERrr.... yeah, what he said...

> How about this:
> Karma is spent like normal on magical stuff (allies, focuses, etc.),
> but not used up. If the item is destroyed, the Karma is freed to be
> used once again on something else. I don't think it is munchkiny,
> because the mage still has a Karma "cap" that he has to contend with.
> Of course, initiation does not apply to the above. I few other things
> I just thought of. If items are destroyed by the mage on purpose
> (like if he wants to deliberately try to regain some Karma) the Karma
> is lost. This includes setting his ally free.
>
> This idea took all of 10 minutes to propose, so fire away.

Actually, I like this idea. And I don't see anything wrong with
it since you added that caveat about destroying things on
purpose, covered your bases there.
Knights of Shadows Game Master
Excalibur
Darrell L. Bowman
bowmandl@*****.dhr.state.nc.us
http://www.abts.net/~arch/kos_rule.htm
Message no. 44
From: Gossamer <jrsnyder@********.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 10:27:58 -0500
>Wait a minute,... two messages in a row...
>
>My question was relating to the section on doing the ally ordeal
>for initation, the book says that the ally cost the same as
>initiation. That's the question... The same as initiation??? So,
>do I spend the 52 that I was all set to spend, plus the 18 for
>initiation, or do I spend 18 for initiation and 18 for the ally?

70 points total. 52 for the ally and 18 for the initiation.

Love,

Gossamer, who's looking for a really high rated Conjuring Library
so that he can design his ally.
Message no. 45
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 23:27:24 EDT
On Thu, 1 May 1997 17:37:11 +0100 "Paul J. Adam"

[snip]

>Again, see my complaint? If a magician gets the karma back when he loses
>a focus, what do other characters get in their turn?

Oh, I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. I was disagreeing
that mages have it easy money wise. I'd in no way let them recover karma
spent on foci and such... karma is karma and when it's spent, no matter
HOW it's spent, is gone.

[snip]
>Of all the claims I've heard for Shadowrun, the idea that magicians are
>underpowered compared to other characters is a new one :)

Yup.... that's part of the reason I love SR. It's one game where
magicians have some real POWER! (and it doesn't take 'till 6th level to
get anything earthshattering like in a certain OTHER game, or practically
NEVER in ones made by Palladium).

~Tim (who's a bit behind on his list mail, 300 to go!, due to a weekend
excursion..)
Message no. 46
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Initiation and Familiar Ordeal
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 11:08:40 +0100
Darrell L. Bowman said on 8:19/ 5 May 97...

> My question was relating to the section on doing the ally ordeal
> for initation, the book says that the ally cost the same as
> initiation. That's the question... The same as initiation??? So,
> do I spend the 52 that I was all set to spend, plus the 18 for
> initiation, or do I spend 18 for initiation and 18 for the ally?

As I've said before, the one time someone wanted to summon a familiar, I
interpretted that rule to mean you pay the Karma cost for the initiation,
and then basically get an ally of the same Karma value (18 in this case)
for free.

Others say you have to design an ally of (at least) the same Karma cost as
the initiation, and pay for the two separately. And yes, you have to pay
full cost for the ally -- I wouldn't let anyone get away with designing a
52-Karma ally and paying only 18 for it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's the story of how we run our lives.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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