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Message no. 1
From: Rogue Cheddar <fenrir@******.cc.purdue.edu>
Subject: Initiation ordeal question
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 20:02:12 -0500 (EST)
Okay, I'll admit, this is rules-raping at its grossest, and if I'm reading
the rules correctly, FASA simply _couldn't_ have meant it like this. For the
Familiar ordeal for initiating, it says that the magician must summon an
ally, and that the ally automatically has a karma cost equal to that of
cost of the grade the magician is initiating to.
This can't be right, can it? My shaman can't summon a 100+ karma point
ally for no magic point cost, and a karma cost of 9 (the cost to go to grade
0), can he?

I gotta be missing something.


//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
/Rogue Cheddar /Eyes and genitals were bought on the/
/fenrir@expert.cc.purdue.edu/open market. The eyes were green. /
/ / -William Gibson, Count Zero/
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Message no. 2
From: Eric Klein <suntzu@****.net>
Subject: Re: Initiation ordeal question
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 19:36:32 -0700 (PDT)
On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Rogue Cheddar wrote:

>
> Okay, I'll admit, this is rules-raping at its grossest, and if I'm reading
> the rules correctly, FASA simply _couldn't_ have meant it like this. For the
> Familiar ordeal for initiating, it says that the magician must summon an
> ally, and that the ally automatically has a karma cost equal to that of
> cost of the grade the magician is initiating to.
> This can't be right, can it? My shaman can't summon a 100+ karma point
> ally for no magic point cost, and a karma cost of 9 (the cost to go to grade
> 0), can he?
>
> I gotta be missing something.

Well, as I read the rules, it goes something like this: to initiate to
grade 0 it takes 9 karma points (or whatever). That means that for the
Familiar ordeal, you must summon an ally that costs *9* karma points.
This means that you really wouldn't want to use this ordeal until you
were a fairly high-grade initiate.

Sorry there, no munchkins allowed.

Eric Klein
suntzu@****.net
Message no. 3
From: Adam Wise <dwise@****.state.il.us>
Subject: Re: Initiation ordeal question
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 21:48:17 -0500
At 08:02 PM 7/17/96 -0500, Rogue Cheddar wrote:
>
> Okay, I'll admit, this is rules-raping at its grossest, and if I'm reading
>the rules correctly, FASA simply _couldn't_ have meant it like this. For the
>Familiar ordeal for initiating, it says that the magician must summon an
>ally, and that the ally automatically has a karma cost equal to that of
>cost of the grade the magician is initiating to.
> This can't be right, can it? My shaman can't summon a 100+ karma point
>ally for no magic point cost, and a karma cost of 9 (the cost to go to grade
>0), can he?
>
> I gotta be missing something.

Personally, I have always interpreted that as meaning that the ally had to
cost _at least_ the amount of karma needed to increase initiate grade. Any
excess karma for the ally would still have to be paid.

Later,

Adam Wise (The Dodger) 42
Message no. 4
From: Mike Alex <mra0118@******.sdsmt.edu>
Subject: Re: Initiation ordeal question
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 21:23:35 -0600 (MDT)
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Rogue Cheddar wrote:
>
>
> Well, as I read the rules, it goes something like this: to initiate to
> grade 0 it takes 9 karma points (or whatever). That means that for the
> Familiar ordeal, you must summon an ally that costs *9* karma points.
> This means that you really wouldn't want to use this ordeal until you
> were a fairly high-grade initiate.
>
> Sorry there, no munchkins allowed.

I'm not sure if I'm saying the same thing you were tryng to, but i
would say for a grade 0 initiate ordeal, it costs 6x2.5= (self
initiation, or 9 group) *Plus* 15 for the spirit for a total of 30. Sum
total, you get an ally for no magic loss, and the initiation costs 3 kp
less.

Mike Alex, mra0118@******.sdsmt.edu
"Resistance is futile, (if < 1 ohm)."
Message no. 5
From: Mike Alex <mra0118@******.sdsmt.edu>
Subject: Re: Initiation ordeal question
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 21:23:35 -0600 (MDT)
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Rogue Cheddar wrote:
>
>
> Well, as I read the rules, it goes something like this: to initiate to
> grade 0 it takes 9 karma points (or whatever). That means that for the
> Familiar ordeal, you must summon an ally that costs *9* karma points.
> This means that you really wouldn't want to use this ordeal until you
> were a fairly high-grade initiate.
>
> Sorry there, no munchkins allowed.

I'm not sure if I'm saying the same thing you were tryng to, but i
would say for a grade 0 initiate ordeal, it costs 6x2.5= (self
initiation, or 9 group) *Plus* 15 for the spirit for a total of 30. Sum
total, you get an ally for no magic loss, and the initiation costs 3 kp
less.

Mike Alex, mra0118@******.sdsmt.edu
"Resistance is futile, (if < 1 ohm)."
Message no. 6
From: Eric Klein <suntzu@****.net>
Subject: Re: Initiation ordeal question
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 21:38:08 -0700 (PDT)
On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Mike Alex wrote:

> >
> >
> > On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Rogue Cheddar wrote:
> >
> >
> > Well, as I read the rules, it goes something like this: to initiate to
> > grade 0 it takes 9 karma points (or whatever). That means that for the
> > Familiar ordeal, you must summon an ally that costs *9* karma points.
> > This means that you really wouldn't want to use this ordeal until you
> > were a fairly high-grade initiate.
> >
> > Sorry there, no munchkins allowed.
>
> I'm not sure if I'm saying the same thing you were tryng to, but i
> would say for a grade 0 initiate ordeal, it costs 6x2.5= (self
> initiation, or 9 group) *Plus* 15 for the spirit for a total of 30. Sum
> total, you get an ally for no magic loss, and the initiation costs 3 kp
> less.
>
Yes, that is what I had meant. Sorry about that.

Eric Klein
suntzu@****.net
Message no. 7
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Initiation ordeal question
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 11:35:40 +0100
Rogue Cheddar said on 20:02/17 Jul 96...

> Okay, I'll admit, this is rules-raping at its grossest, and if I'm reading
> the rules correctly, FASA simply _couldn't_ have meant it like this. For the
> Familiar ordeal for initiating, it says that the magician must summon an
> ally, and that the ally automatically has a karma cost equal to that of
> cost of the grade the magician is initiating to.
> This can't be right, can it? My shaman can't summon a 100+ karma point
> ally for no magic point cost, and a karma cost of 9 (the cost to go to grade
> 0), can he?

What this means is that he can summon a 9-Karma ally as an ordeal for
becoming grade 0. That would be a pretty lousy spirit, stats-wise, but
you'd gain an ally and a grade of initiation for it, instead of just one
of the two.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I've often tried to hold the sea, the sun, the fields, the tide.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 8
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.net.au>
Subject: Re: Initiation ordeal question
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 96 21:45:02 +1100
> Okay, I'll admit, this is rules-raping at its grossest, and if I'm reading
>the rules correctly, FASA simply _couldn't_ have meant it like this. For the
>Familiar ordeal for initiating, it says that the magician must summon an
>ally, and that the ally automatically has a karma cost equal to that of
>cost of the grade the magician is initiating to.
> This can't be right, can it? My shaman can't summon a 100+ karma point
>ally for no magic point cost, and a karma cost of 9 (the cost to go to grade
>0), can he?

You've misread it... it says you have to summon a familiar at a cost at
LEAST equal to the cost of the grade.

So, if you want to use the familiar ordeal to go up to grade 0, with a
cost of 9 karma, that means you have to summon an ally that costs at
least 9 karma. And pay at least 9 karma. If the ally costs 100 karma, you
pay the 100 karma. If it only cost 8, it wouldn't count as an ordeal.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 9
From: Wynd <jeltzz@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Initiation ordeal question
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 21:40:25 +1000
This is another question, has anyone put together an
enchantment ordeal? If not, might be something to
think about.

Oh, if a ally spirit is like a cat or something,
how's it using sorcery? direct magic ability...?

--
Wynd, the Zen-Taoist-Celtic Mystic-Poet-Philosopher-Warrior-Dude
<jeltzz@*******.com.au>
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~jeltzz

"For I am known, | "The Ravens took flight,
As the Fallen One, | and the sky, just moments Winter's white
He-Who-Walks-Alone, | turned black, as if night had descended"
Under Star, Moon and Sun." | - Flight of the Ravens
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Message no. 10
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Initiation ordeal question
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 17:46:47 +0000
On 17 Jul 96 at 20:02, Rogue Cheddar wrote:
> Okay, I'll admit, this is rules-raping at its grossest, and if I'm reading
> the rules correctly, FASA simply _couldn't_ have meant it like this. For the
> Familiar ordeal for initiating, it says that the magician must summon an
> ally, and that the ally automatically has a karma cost equal to that of
> cost of the grade the magician is initiating to.
> This can't be right, can it? My shaman can't summon a 100+ karma point
> ally for no magic point cost, and a karma cost of 9 (the cost to go to grade
> 0), can he?
I think it's not you who's missing something, but FASA. I suppose it was meant
to be "[...] which automatically costs AT LEAST as much Karma as the
initiation."

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 11
From: Stephen Delear <shadow@***.com>
Subject: Re: Initiation ordeal question
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 16:01:55 -0500 (CDT)
On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Eric Klein wrote:

>
> On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Rogue Cheddar wrote:
>
> >
> > Okay, I'll admit, this is rules-raping at its grossest, and if I'm reading
> > the rules correctly, FASA simply _couldn't_ have meant it like this. For the
> > Familiar ordeal for initiating, it says that the magician must summon an
> > ally, and that the ally automatically has a karma cost equal to that of
> > cost of the grade the magician is initiating to.
> > This can't be right, can it? My shaman can't summon a 100+ karma point
> > ally for no magic point cost, and a karma cost of 9 (the cost to go to grade
> > 0), can he?
> >
> > I gotta be missing something.
>
> Well, as I read the rules, it goes something like this: to initiate to
> grade 0 it takes 9 karma points (or whatever). That means that for the
> Familiar ordeal, you must summon an ally that costs *9* karma points.
> This means that you really wouldn't want to use this ordeal until you
> were a fairly high-grade initiate.
>
> Sorry there, no munchkins allowed.
>
> Eric Klein
> suntzu@****.net
>
I also read it to mean that the mage needs to pay the karma points for
the ordeal AND the karma points for the familiar.

Stephen
Austin, TX
Message no. 12
From: Brian Johnson <john0375@****.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Initiation ordeal question
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 11:06:32 -0500 (CDT)
Karma cost of initiation w/ familiar ordeal.

To clarify?

So, Is everyone saying that the spirit is 0 karma(free) (or nine karma
points are free), or that you have to pay the full karma cost for ally?
The way I read it, is that the only thing is free with a familiar ordeal
is the first force point( since you don't loose the MA point), and the
spirit is more friendly.


> > I'm not sure if I'm saying the same thing you were tryng to, but i
> > would say for a grade 0 initiate ordeal, it costs 6x2.5= (self
> > initiation, or 9 group) *Plus* 15 for the spirit for a total of 30. Sum
> > total, you get an ally for no magic loss, and the initiation costs 3 kp
> > less.
> >
> Yes, that is what I had meant. Sorry about that.
>
> Eric Klein
> suntzu@****.net
>
Message no. 13
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Initiation ordeal question
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 08:47:53 GMT
Brian Johnson writes

>
>
> Karma cost of initiation w/ familiar ordeal.
>
> To clarify?
>
> So, Is everyone saying that the spirit is 0 karma(free) (or nine karma
> points are free), or that you have to pay the full karma cost for ally?
you still pay the full karma cost for the ally AND the full karma
cost for the initiation (but you get the ordeal cost reduction as
long as the ally cost >= the initation costs)

considering that even the weak example ally in GR2 costs 30 karma i
don't think the ally costing enough is really a problem. ( i say weak
as i know how easy spirits up to about force 8 can get knocked off,
ok that hard slows things down but if you want it to live at least
force 6 is advised)

> The way I read it, is that the only thing is free with a familiar ordeal
> is the first force point( since you don't loose the MA point),
correct, and you still gain one for the iniation grade (unless its
zero)

> and the spirit is more friendly.
Which is nice from a roleplaying veiwpoint. Its also a better step if
you play it right to eventually freeing the allay to become a
(hopefully) friendly free spirit. (need good roleplaying in my
opinion to get it to stay about though, friendly free spirits are
kind of nice)

Mark

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