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Message no. 1
From: jeff <WFREEMAN@*****.BITNET>
Subject: initiation rare? B.S.!
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 92 16:34:34 CST
In reply to J. Earl Williams' comments on initiation: Sorry, but the rules make
it far easier to initiate than to find a clinic. It's simple IF you have the K
arma to spare (yeah, right. that happens so often with mages). Say you wanted t
o become a level 0 initiate. Just spend 18 karma (at most) and poof! you're the
re! Like magic! (pun intended). It's called self-initiation, and it cuts out a
lot of the grief GM's can give players (that's why it more expensive than group
initiation).

As to the non game rule reasons J.E.W. listed- look, if I just spent 18 #$$%&@@
#$% KARMA, MY HARD-EARNED-AND-I-ALMOST-DAMN-WELL-BOUGHT-THE-FARM-TO-GET-IT-KARM
A, to advance, my totem had better damn well think I'm ready for it/ worthy of
it, otherwise I'm selling my magical secrets and using the nuyen to buy cyberwa
re!!!!

This isn't meant as a flame, just an explanation that initiation doesn't have t
o be difficult to acquire, just damn costly in Karma

Ciao,
Jeff
Message no. 2
From: "P. Steele" <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: initiation rare? B.S.! (fwd)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 92 22:54:31 GMT
> As to the non game rule reasons J.E.W. listed- look, if I just spent 18
#$$%&@@
> #$% KARMA, MY
HARD-EARNED-AND-I-ALMOST-DAMN-WELL-BOUGHT-THE-FARM-TO-GET-IT-KARM
> A, to advance, my totem had better damn well think I'm ready for it/ worthy of
> it, otherwise I'm selling my magical secrets and using the nuyen to buy
cyberwa
> re!!!!
>
> This isn't meant as a flame, just an explanation that initiation doesn't have
t
> o be difficult to acquire, just damn costly in Karma
>

Gotta agree here, I mean cash is very easy to get hold of whereas karma takes
a helluv alot of slogging. Any player with enough cash can go stay in some
hotel in Chiba and after, say a few months of legwork (if they're unlucky), they
will have found themselves a clinic to do the op. Whats more is that they can
go back to that clinic whenever they want some more additions. Poor magicians,
shamans and assorted adepts have to blow loads of karma when they want to reach
higher grades, even if they do take an ordeal and find a group.

-The Powerhouse
Message no. 3
From: steven mancini <mancinis@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: initiation rare? B.S.!
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 92 01:05:25 EST
Once again, I would have emailed to Jeff, but I do not have his complete
email address...

Jeff writes:
] It's simple IF you have the Karma to spare (yeah, right. that happens so
] often with mages). Say you wanted to become a level 0 initiate. Just spend
] 18 karma (at most) and poof! you're there! Like magic! (pun intended).
] It's called self-initiation, and it cuts out a lot of the grief GM's can
] give players (that's why it more expensive than group initiation).
]
] As to the non game rule reasons J.E.W. listed- look, if I just spent 18
] KARMA to advance, my totem had better damn well think I'm ready for it/
] worthy of it, otherwise I'm selling my magical secrets and using the
] nuyen to buy cyberware!!!!

Jeff:
Karma to spare? I would call it the smartest investment any
magician can make. Greater Forms? Quickenings which nullify the
threat of Grounding that Spell Locks incur? Centering to reduce
drain? A free ally who is both a power foci and a second source
of drain resistance? Please you must be kidding about having
karma to spare. I'd pass up the 18 points of spells to have
these powers without a second hesitation.

As far as this cutting the GM out; once again- are you serious?
Think back to Sam Verner from the Books and Hyde White's simple
fear tactic to prevent him from initiating. I admit that unless
the GM has a godd reason this is a really scummy thing to do but
simply having 18 points of karma does not bypass the GM, does it?

Lastly, your 'posed' attitude in your last paragraph would have
your link to the totem severed in a Quick Rick instant. It sounds
more like a Wiz Kid attitude (seriously- read the quotes by the
Wiz Kid, they are damn close ;>) than that of someone who has
been chosen.
-Minotaur
Message no. 4
From: "J. Earl Williams" <IH46@****.BITNET>
Subject: initiation rare? B.S.!
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 92 23:13:19 MST
> This isn't meant as a flame, just an explanation that initiation doesn't have
> o be difficult to acquire, just damn costly in Karma
All things being relative, of course. 18 Karma being enough to raise my
6 to a 7 and my 3 to a 4 (oooh....) Yes, 18 karma is a lot. My GM thinx
so, at any rate.

Look at the advantages of an initiate level, vs. those of raising my
skills.

It's all relative (so's stupidity...if stupidity is relative, and you're
stupid now, how stupid are you as you approach the speed of light?:)

Head Shot

---
J. Earl Williams
Up the Brotherhood!
Message no. 5
From: jlkim%sdcc3.ucsd.edu@****.BITNET
Subject: Re: initiation rare? B.S.! (fwd)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 92 23:10:10 -0800
>Gotta agree here, I mean cash is very easy to get hold of whereas karma takes
>a helluv alot of slogging. Any player with enough cash can go stay in some
>hotel in Chiba and after, say a few months of legwork (if they're unlucky), the
y
>will have found themselves a clinic to do the op. Whats more is that they can
>go back to that clinic whenever they want some more additions. Poor magicians,
>shamans and assorted adepts have to blow loads of karma when they want to reach

>higher grades, even if they do take an ordeal and find a group.
>

I once did a feasibility study to see how much it would cost to
have an alpha rig put in one of my characters. I gave it up as soon as I
realized that the doctor's fees and recuperation costs alone would come to
at least 12,650,000Y [(250,000*50)+(1000*50*3)] (assuming I got out of the
clinic in the minimum 3 days). In the campain I was in, it took me almost
seven months of playing time just to save 300,000Y, and I was by far the
richest of the lot (the fewest doctor's bills ;-)).

I always figured the point of custom cyberware was that it would
take major pull with or major favors from a corp (or the Yak) for a player
to be able to afford it. I never wanted to owe *anybody* that much.

No flames. Just an observation.

Justin
--------------
Justin Kim
jlkim@****.edu
Graduate School of International Relations/ Pacific Studies
University of California-San Diego
--------------
"University flunkies are easily outwitted"--Chalmers Johnson
Message no. 6
From: Chris Siebenmann <cks@********.UTCS.TORONTO.EDU>
Subject: Re: initiation rare? B.S.! (fwd)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 92 15:52:02 -0500
| Gotta agree here, I mean cash is very easy to get hold of whereas karma takes
| a helluv alot of slogging.

Depends on the campaign.
The erratic Shadowrun campaign I play in was a low entropy one; the
money rewards weren't particularly large, and toys weren't handed
around a lot. But we did a lot, so we got a fairly large amount of
karma after you added all the little things up.

I can easily see this happening normally; it seems a valid style.
I suppose I should make this a poll: what's the rough ratio of
nuyen-after-expenses to karma in your campaign(s)? Email to me, and
I'll summarize to the list when the answers stop rolling in.

- cks

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